Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[The Hidden Dragon]

The more I consider Ned's TOJ dream the more I believe that the dialogue is not to be taken literally (i.e. I don't believe that actual conversation took place between Ned and the KG) rather it strikes me that the dialogue is a big fat "look here" arrow from GRRM to the reader.  I think he's telling the reader that this is something important. He's basically saying, reader, why weren't these KG at the Trident, why weren't they with Aerys, why aren't they on Dragonstone with Viserys, why are they here?

As I write this, a few thoughts come to mind 1) I think others have said much the same in earlier posts to this thread, 2) I think my little interpretation is so obvious that I assume many others, who have spent many more years in ASOIAF than I, have likely already pointed this out.  I am not trying to represent this as earth shattering news.  

[ravenous reader]

49 minutes ago, JNR said:

For instance, if he was sent to that location explicitly seeking Lyanna, then instead of his first words being

Quote

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

I would expect something a bit more like:

Quote

"Where the fuck is my sister?" Ned asked them.

Very logical, yes.  And why on earth would GRRM reveal that to us in the text, when his aim is to keep us in the dark?  

[WeKnowNothing]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't even think he even thought Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar.That in itself is a clue.

Yes to the second and I further agree on if Robert starts touting rape nobody is going to tell the king they don't think Rhaegar is raping Lyanna.

Agree with both of the above.

To your first point - Robert would never in his wildest dreams have imagined Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar. Never mind even think about it. His ego wouldn't have allowed him to, plain and simple. 

Secondly, it is risky true that the Kings word is basically almost considered as fact. So at least no one would speak to his face about elopment or love. But that doesn't stop them from having their own thoughts about Rhaegar-Lyanna. Several characters seem to believe that they were in love or ran away together, so not everyone believes Roberts propaganda. 

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

6 hours ago, JNR said:

 

We know in many different ways that the Trident did happen, and the KG weren't there, and Ned logically would have expected them to be there.  

I'd never thought about this until now but would the KG be expected at the Trident? Are any of the KG at any Of The battles between the Lannisters & the Starks in COK? I know Jaime is at the whispering wood but he's more or less AWOL at that point from a KG perspective.

The KG participate in the battle of backwater buts that's the enemy at the city gate so fits with a "guard" duty.

I think in pre history some of the KG ride out against the laughing knight but the general question is do the KG have a military role (aside From the obvious they do what the king orders?

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

What if we can't rule out the idea that Brandon is Jon's father with Lyanna? 

Really like the Summerhall line of thinking, this bit.....not so much.

Nothing to even remotely hint at this in the books and if B+l=J then Jon wouldn't have Kings blood which would then undermine the Theory you have put forward if i understand it correctly?

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

No it doesn't.....

Aegon is the one Rhaegar dubbed TPTWP.

Dany could be if Aemon was right.

And per GRRM the third head need not be a Targ.

Further backed up by Aemon hoping Stannis "Baratheon" was.

 

I agree that Jon being a contender for those roles doesnt rule out some other people. That's basically GRRMs writing style, write a prophecy / mystery and have 3 people / situations for whom the argument can be made to provoke debate.

We seem to both agree that having a  PTWP etc advances the narrative so I think tagging Jon as a contender answers your question of how would R+L=J advance the story.

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Hmmm.

Ned knows where Lyanna is before he goes to the ToJ and doesn't tell Robert?

I wonder how that happened.

Or when Ned brings her bones to KL before taking them to WF, Robert doesn't ask how he knew where to find her?

Things to be cleared up in TWOW or ADoS

 

I think Lyanna died the day Robert celebrated his victories over Summerhall and Ned was on his way from the Vale to Winterfell and found her on the Quiet Isle.  Those who found him with her...  the Silent Brothers.   But we shall see, eventually.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

IMO making Jon the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna elevates his story arc, but while he is a major character I believe he's a distraction meant to keep the reader from focusing on Bran. Bran is Dr Strange and Fenrir in a Marvel meets Nordic mythology inspired world where he has god-like powers. So far we're led to believe he's an apprentice, but I suspect Bloodraven saw his potential via the weirnet and brought him to the cave to keep him captive.

 

Just one minor observation on this (with no specific interpretation of what I think it might mean)

Bran 1 GOT:

"His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood Of The ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it was curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were blind."

Dr Strange recognising Jon's advanced development and power in chapter 1 of book 1. Jon is singled out by GRRM from day 1.

[Prof. Cecily]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think Lyanna died the day Robert celebrated his victories over Summerhall and Ned was on his way from the Vale to Winterfell and found her on the Quiet Isle.  Those who found him with her...  the Silent Brothers.   But we shall see, eventually.

Ahh, now that's an intriguing idea. Most appealing.

How did Lyanna get to the Quiet Isle?

Off to

edited to add: Would Lyanna be mirroring the fate of Queen Guinevere, penitent for the damage her passions have wrought?

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

The more I consider Ned's TOJ dream the more I believe that the dialogue is not to be taken literally (i.e. I don't believe that actual conversation took place between Ned and the KG) rather it strikes me that the dialogue is a big fat "look here" arrow from GRRM to the reader.  I think he's telling the reader that this is something important. He's basically saying, reader, why weren't these KG at the Trident, why weren't they with Aerys, why aren't they on Dragonstone with Viserys, why are they here?

I agree in so far as don't think it matters whether Lord Eddard's memory [or fevered imagination] was word perfect, because I don't think he was actively looking for them at those places. He's expressing surprise that they aint where they are supposed to be, but the central core of the conversation remains, triggered by that unnecessary fight and killing in the street. The war was over but they still insisted on fighting and killing and dying. And of course at no point was Lyanna mentioned

But that doesn't much matter, because to re-iterate once again: GRRM's warning was not about the dialogue but the interviewer's assumption that Lyanna and Jon were in the tower

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I'd never thought about this until now but would the KG be expected at the Trident? Are any of the KG at any Of The battles between the Lannisters & the Starks in COK? I know Jaime is at the whispering wood but he's more or less AWOL at that point from a KG perspective.

The KG participate in the battle of backwater buts that's the enemy at the city gate so fits with a "guard" duty.

I think in pre history some of the KG ride out against the laughing knight but the general question is do the KG have a military role (aside From the obvious they do what the king orders?

Baristan Selmy and Prince Lewyn and a third whose name I can't remember were all at the Trident. The impression I get throughout the narrative is that while the Kings Guard do have a partly ceremonial role in protecting the King's body, they are also his trusted servants and agents, and yes a military command is consistent with that.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Just one minor observation on this (with no specific interpretation of what I think it might mean)

Bran 1 GOT:

"His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood Of The ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it was curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were blind."

Dr Strange recognising Jon's advanced development and power in chapter 1 of book 1. Jon is singled out by GRRM from day 1.

He is to a degree, but ultimately this story is about all the children of Winterfell and each one with a different role to play

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Ahh, now that's an intriguing idea. Most appealing.

How did Lyanna get to the Quiet Isle?

Off to

edited to add: Would Lyanna be mirroring the fate of Queen Guinevere, penitent for the damage her passions have wrought?

Well, I don't know what Ned promised or why he said nothing to anyone about Lyanna.  We don't really know what he told Robert about the circumstances of her death or where he found her.  It seems to me that he lets Robert believe what he wants to believe rather than tell him the truth.

Quote

 

 A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

 

You might be familiar with the thread on the general forum that touches on portraiture in Westeros... the lack of it and perhaps the significance of such things where they do exist in the text.   I'm speculating that Robert's feast celebrating his victory at the battles of Summerhall  is one such event; where the banners of the twin fawns spattered in blood beside the banner of the sleeping lion have another context.  Robert is the stag and fawns are offspring.  The lion is the symbol of royatly.  At some point, Martin will have to point to something in the text that tells us when and where Jon was born.  

If Jon was born on this day, that places Ned somewhere in the vicinity of the Quiet Isle where noble ladies sometimes go for assistance.  Whether Ned knew she was there or not, or was summoned there is the question.  We have some precedence in the text with Tyrion when he discusses hiding Tommen without being party to his whereabouts.  It wouldn't be the first time that a lady disguised herself as a septa.   But certainly, there was a need to hide Lyanna given the fates of her father and brother and her betrothal to rebel/usurper Robert.   She was in as much danger as the rest of them, if not more. 

When Lyanna says that "love is sweet, but it cannot change the nature of a man"; I'm not so sure that she is only talking about Robert's feelings but her own instead.   We can't place Lyanna with Rhaegar with any certainty.  That is also the situation with Robert, except that it seems more likely to me that Robert had access to Lyanna after the tourney for a time; where Rhaegar did not until she apparently fell into his lap.  

It's the symbolism of the crowned stag or the horned lord that is significant to Jon.  Mance denies his place as king beyond the wall although his tent of white firs is crowned with the antlers of the great elk.  What is Jon now that the wildlings have pledged their allegiance to him; if not king beyond the wall and soon to be king in the north, a great bastard to match his great bastard sword.   The wildlings don't follow kings they follow the horned lord.   

[Prof. Cecily]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You might be familiar with the thread on the general forum that touches on portraiture in Westeros... the lack of it and perhaps the significance of such things where they do exist in the text.

Well, a bit.

I was the poster on that thread who pointed out portraiture did indeed exist in Westeros and gave an example of it.

33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, I don't know what Ned promised or why he said nothing to anyone about Lyanna.  We don't really know what he told Robert about the circumstances of her death or where he found her.  It seems to me that he lets Robert believe what he wants to believe rather than tell him the truth.

I'm in complete agreement with you there!

TWOW can't come soon enough.

35 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The wildlings don't follow kings they follow the horned lord. 

I'm confused. Not for the first time.

I thought the horned lord WAS a King-beyond-the-Wall.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Horned_Lord

Or do you mean the constellation?

 

Still, I like the idea of Lyanna ending up on the Quiet Isle.

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

 

I'm confused. Not for the first time.

I thought the horned lord WAS a King-beyond-the-Wall.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Horned_Lord

 

That's my understanding too. He was an individual and by what little we know a successful one who used magic to pass the Wall - and doesn't have a famous disaster attaching to him.

Mance's use of the horns on his tent is not the sigil of the Kings Beyond the Wall, otherwise they would all have them and there would be no point in distinguishing a particular one in history as the Horned Lord.

The significance in Mance's case is that like the Horned Lord he intends to use magic to breach the Wall and gain victory

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I was the poster on that thread who pointed out portraiture did indeed exist in Westeros and gave an example of it.

That was you?  Excellent!  We haven't given such things enough attention.  For example, the Targaryen tapestries which I suppose are in Littlefinger's possession now.  I suspect they will be used at some point to stake a claim on the throne. Also the statue of the weeping woman and the lion of night in the HoBW; the statue in Illyrio's garden of a youth surrounded by six cherry (picked) trees  and the one of the weeping woman at the Eyrie (broken in two and half-buried in the ground).

King-beyond-the-Wall seems to be a designation by southrons for the horned lord since they don't know anything about wildling lore.  They can understand somebody like Mance as a king uniting the tribes.   The wildlings don't recognize the title.  You can't be born a king or pass it on to your offspring.  

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That's my understanding too. He was an individual and by what little we know a successful one who used magic to pass the Wall - and doesn't have a famous disaster attaching to him.

Mance's use of the horns on his tent is not the sigil of the Kings Beyond the Wall, otherwise they would all have them and there would be no point in distinguishing a particular one in history as the Horned Lord.

The significance in Mance's case is that like the Horned Lord he intends to use magic to breach the Wall and gain victory

[PrettyPig]

59 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When Lyanna says that "love is sweet, but it cannot change the nature of a man"; I'm not so sure that she is only talking about Robert's feelings but her own instead.  

Ahh, this exactly.   For years I have been saying that people have misinterpreted the emphasis in that passage.   It takes on a whole new meaning when you read it as "Robert will never keep to one bed..." - implying, "...so why should I?"

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Ahh, this exactly.   For years I have been saying that people have misinterpreted the emphasis in that passage.   It takes on a whole new meaning when you read it as "Robert will never keep to one bed..." - implying, "...so why should I?"

I just don't think it's Lyanna's nature to stray.  How many women think their love can change a man's nature?  Lyanna is more realistic about her feelings and her experience with Brandon's filandering might tell her otherwise in spite of what Ned tells.  I think she is expressing the fear that her love for Robert won't change him.

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Really like the Summerhall line of thinking, this bit.....not so much.

Nothing to even remotely hint at this in the books and if B+l=J then Jon wouldn't have Kings blood which would then undermine the Theory you have put forward if i understand it correctly?

Actually I disagree that nothing hints at it.

Quote

He had the Stark face if not the name:  long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away.  Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

And there are other quotes noting that Jon looks much more "Stark like" than his other siblings.

Then we have Brandon's reaction at the Harrenhal tourney.

Quote

Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End.

Once again this reaction doesn't make any sense.  The reward of the crown to Lyanna should not have been immediately assumed to have been a romantic gesture.  In fact in the context it was presented in, by a married man, whose wife was in attendance, the gesture should have been considered an honor bestowed both upon Lyanna and upon House Stark.  But Brandon reacts more hotly to this than Robert, who would have had a better reason to have been jealous of the overture.  

We have this description of Brandon and Lyanna:

Quote

Her father sighed.  "Ah Arya.  You have a wildness in you child.  'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it.  Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch.  It brought them both to an early grave."  Arya heard sadness in his voice;  he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born.

Then we have this from Lady Barberry:

Quote

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire.  "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills.  He loved to ride.  His little sister took after him in that.  A pair of centaurs, those two... Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted... I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me.  I think Brandon liked the sight as well.  A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes.  It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though... there was nothing sweet about that pain.  He never wanted her, I promise you that.  He told me so, on our last night together...

Interestingly, Jaime compares Brandon to himself:

Quote

Brandon was different from his brother, wasn't he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water. More like me

Finally, I'm trying to make heads or tails as to why Eddard seems to be haunted by the promise that Lyanna demanded of him on her death bed.  And as he lay in the black cells he dreamed of blood and broken promises.  What promise did he break.  Why is he dreaming of Lyanna crying bloody tears and the direwolf statues turning and growling at Eddard while Lyanna reminds Eddard of his promise?

The only thing that really makes sense to me is that the promise that Eddard broke to Lyanna is giving Jon his birthright, Winterfell.  It's also the only plot line concerning Jon's parentage that cold really forward the story at this point.  It also highlights why Eddard has to keep this secret from Cat.  Cat already doesn't like Jon, if he tells Cat that Jon is Brandon's son he becomes a bigger threat to her children's claim.  It's not the Iron Throne that Jon covets, it's Winterfell, and perhaps he may have a valid claim.

This also may explain why this dream starts to plague Eddard when it does.  He is dealing with the inverse problem with the Lannisters.  A secret of incest which is being used to steal the throne from the Baratheons.  It's an inverse to Eddard's guilt.  That Eddard stole Winterfell from his brother's son because of Brandon and Lyanna's incestuous relationship.

ETA as for your last question, you read the idea behind Kingsblood too narrowly (as does Melisandre IMO).  If Jon is the child of Brandon and Lyanna he has a purer form of Kingsblood than most, a purer Stark bloodline and the Starks until they knelt were the Kings of Winter and the north.