Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

That was you?  Excellent!  We haven't given such things enough attention.  For example, the Targaryen tapestries which I suppose are in Littlefinger's possession now.  I suspect they will be used at some point to stake a claim on the throne. Also the statue of the weeping woman and the lion of night in the HoBW; the statue in Illyrio's garden of a youth surrounded by six cherry (picked) trees  and the one of the weeping woman at the Eyrie (broken in two and half-buried in the ground). ...

 

Ah, those tapestries.

 

Quote

Alayne swept down the tower stairs to enter the pillared gallery at the back of the Great Hall. Below her, serving men were setting up trestle tables for the evening feast, while their wives and daughters swept up the old rushes and scattered fresh ones. Lord Nestor was showing Lady Waxley his prize tapestries, with their scenes of hunt and chase. The same panels had once hung in the Red Keep of King's Landing, when Robert sat the Iron Throne. Joffrey had them taken down and they had languished in some cellar until Petyr Baelish arranged for them to be brought to the Vale as a gift for Nestor Royce. Not only were the hangings beautiful, but the High Steward delighted in telling anyone who'd listen that they had once belonged to a king.

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I

Quote

King-beyond-the-Wall seems to be a designation by southrons for the horned lord since they don't know anything about wildling lore.  They can understand somebody like Mance as a king uniting the tribes.   The wildlings don't recognize the title.  You can't be born a king or pass it on to your offspring.  

So, you feel the horned lord is a deity rather than an actual person?

Of course I agree with you about the title "King-beyond-the-Wall"! Remember Stannis irritating Jon by referring to Val as the Wildling Princess?

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

That's most poetic, and of course the imagry of the beehives is most appealing, still isn't the Quiet Isle on the other side of the bay from Saltpans?

I believe the common route to Winterfell is by the King's Road and the Crossroads Inn.  Or whatever the Eastern Road is from the Inn to the Vale taken by Catelyn with Tyrion in tow.   It's not far from the QI.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

A

Of course I agree with you about the title "King-beyond-the-Wall"! Remember Stannis irritating Jon by referring to Val as the Wildling Princess?

No, not really.  Those with magical power are treated as gods. 

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I agree that the white wolf distinguishes Jon as being different than the other siblings. 

Adding to this....what better way for Ned to recognize the incest between Cersei and Jaime than to have previous experience with Brandon and Lyanna? Their blond-haired green-eyed children the inversion to dark-haired and grey-eyed Jon.

It's not the white wolf that sticks out for me its the "open eyes" given all if the references to Bran opening his third eye.

Ned spends almost a whole book clueless about the incest, has to be led there by "the seed is strong" and Arryns book and even then only stumbles on the idea after a chance remark by Sansa. If there is any recognition there it is very well hidden.

[Frey family reunion]

33 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

That's most poetic, and of course the imagry of the beehives is most appealing, still isn't the Quiet Isle on the other side of the bay from Saltpans?

The "Isle" in question is surrounded by a salt marsh, which could also lead to the salt imagery.  I think the locale is supposed to be based on Glastonbury and the Sommerset level.   There is a myth concerning Glastonbury that it was the location of the graves of King Arthur and Queen Guinevere.  In another tale Guinevere is abducted and taken to Glastonbury.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

 If the promise merely was to keep Jon safe (which he surely does) then why does the promise continue to haunt him?  Why is he dreaming of direwolves snarling at him in the crypts while a crying Lyanna remind him of his promise?

I'm not sure the promise was just to keep Jon safe. Not sure Lyanna would need to ask that specifically of her brother.

If Jon is Lyannas son then Keeping Jon's identity safe has as a minimum: 

* Compromised his relationship with his wife.

* Forced him to lie to Jon about his parentage all his life.

* Brought a degree of shame on honourable Bed, father of a bastard.

If Jon is also Rhaegars: 

* He has lied to his best friend all his life.

* And in so doing potential robbed the kingdom of its rightful king if he was legitimate.

The Direwolves might be snarling because Neds lies have kept the 300 year old kings of winter from ascending to power because by denying the son of a Targaryen they have also denied the Son of a Stark a crown?

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

I don't think that is his aim, though.  I think his aim is to make his mysteries difficult to solve, but also possible to solve (albeit rarely with complete certainty).  You can often see this reflected in specific cases in interviews.

Allow me to qualify my point.  You were arguing -- erroneously, in my opinion, drawing conclusions of evidence of absence from absence of evidence -- that the fact certain things were not said by Ned and the Kingsguard (which by your logic you expected to be said, even within the context of a fever dream we've been explicitly cautioned not to take at face value) suggests somehow that Lyanna was not present at the tower of joy.  It's perfectly conceivable, however, that Lyanna and/or a child was discussed (even if they were not physically present), but that GRRM pointedly chooses to omit those details of what transpired in the mingy 'scraps' of information he supplies to us via Ned's recollections, in order to draw out the slowly-becoming-cringeworthy suspense of the 'decades-long striptease' of Jon's parentage.  

Quote

For instance, this from Rolling Stone:

GRRM asked this because it's one of the easier mysteries to solve and he thought or hoped the interviewer would say Olenna was the murderer.  Sadly, such did not happen, but it could have.

As GRRM implies, the books never conclusively establish that Olenna was the mastermind of Joffrey's murder... but as GRRM also says, the careful reader can work it out from various factors. 

She had a powerful motive; she had learned of Joffrey's true nature in the scene where she quizzes Sansa and Sansa explicitly says Joffrey is a monster; and in the murder scene itself, we get:

Add it all up and yes, it's subtle.

But it was enough for me, and GRRM thinks it's enough for "the careful reader," and I agree with him.  I think all his major mysteries work this way.

I agree that many of GRRM's mysteries are solvable, and which moreover he's quite willingly to post-facto confirm, as you've shown with the helpful example you provided in which GRRM spells it out for those who still don't get it.  In contrast, however, when it comes to anything dealing with the tower of joy or Jon's parentage, GRRM is consistently unamenable.  This doesn't mean that the mystery is not solvable, just that GRRM has chosen thus far not to provide enough clues to solve it to your satisfaction at present!  To quote your ever-hopeful self, 'We do not know yet' (judging from your silence on the matter, you did not particularly enjoy my prose poem pastiche in celebration of the 'collective consolations of not knowing'... ...I thought you would like it; I even gave you the last word!)

What constitutes a 'subtle' and 'careful' approach to reading is in itself a topic we might deconstruct.  The irony of your brand of subtle mind is that you have premised your careful reading upon the dismissal of most clues which you have deemed too subtle to pass muster with your strict 'no symbolism, no circumstantial evidence' approach.  Why? -- because it requires a leap of faith you are not willing to make.  

I'll give you an example of the fallacy.  Although I'm still unsure exactly what to make of it, there is a pervasive pattern of freckled redheads (both female and male) being associated with sacrifice (even Mycah fits the bill!).  Your dismissal of further exploration of this idea is based on the logic that not all redheads are sacrificed, nor are all those who are sacrificed red of hair (who can argue against that?)!  Although I applaud your logic, a lot of potentially valuable information is being lost with this reductive approach to the text.  Analogously, 'wind whispering' is a motif frequently associated with greenseers.  Therefore, whenever those words (either together or separately) appear in the text, they can be flagged as a marker of potentially significant information about the greenseers (note, I said 'potentially,' not conclusively significant).  You, however, would probably disqualify this as a worthy pursuit, on the basis that wind is sometimes just moving air, inserted for ambience, nothing more; and that greenseers are associated with other things besides wind.  Just because GRRM doesn't exclusively -- in each and every instance -- use 'wind' or 'whispers' in conjunction with greenseers, doesn't mean however that the idea has no merit whatsoever.  You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater (or out of the tower...).

[Prof. Cecily]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I believe the common route to Winterfell is by the King's Road and the Crossroads Inn.  Or whatever the Eastern Road is from the Inn to the Vale taken by Catelyn with Tyrion in tow.   It's not far from the QI.

I meant to question the imagry of salt in relation to the QI

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

How did Howland get into this scene?

The fact that Howland

1) Was with Ned at the ToJ, one of two survivors of the fight, and also

2) Was with Ned when Lyanna died

...has always been part of the case that Lyanna died at the ToJ.

I don't recall anything about Howland's whereabouts after the tournament or if he was with Ned before he called his banners.  We assume he went back to Greywater or the God's Eye but we don't really know.

It seems just as likely to me that Howland was with Ned at the ToJ to ensure that Ned lived.  Bran boy hasn't been born yet.    

[JNR]

42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM when pressed on the matter stated that they were obeying orders:

Well, he phrased it as a conditional:

42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that

He could have said "Because Rhaegar ordered them to," -- no "if" -- but he chose to say if.

So we can suspect (strongly, in my case) that Rhaegar did give them a certain order, but we can't know it for sure.

44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

guarding the heir is only a theory, not a given

And it's a very poor theory if the World book is correct that Aerys named Viserys as his heir prior to the Sack.

That would mean Aegon (still alive at that time) came after Viserys in the line of succession.  It would also mean Jon (if Rhaegar's son by Lyanna) would come still later than Aegon did.

And the KG almost certainly would have known this, if they knew about the Sack, and about Viserys fleeing to Dragonstone (which happened after Viserys was named the heir).  The news that Viserys was the heir would have made its way to them; they could not possibly have believed they were guarding the heir to the throne, wherever they were.

Finally, the facts that Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone at all... and concocted the wildfire plot... conclusively show that Aerys knew he was in mortal danger.   He would not have done either if he knew he was safe.

So we can conclude confidently that Aerys, in this time of mortal danger, would never have left three Kingsguard (including Dayne, the deadliest) in some faraway place like the ToJ if he could possibly have summoned them to defend him weeks or months before. 

We can also conclude he never, ever would have left Lyanna in some faraway place like the ToJ if he could have used her as a political hostage against Ned and Robert, also weeks or months before.   Those two things simply did not happen.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I meant to question the imagry of salt in relation to the QI

I think it's surrounded by a salt marsh.

[JNR]

12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

It's perfectly conceivable, however, that Lyanna and/or a child was discussed (even if they were not physically present), but that GRRM pointedly chooses to omit those details of what transpired in the mingy 'scraps' of information he supplies to us via Ned's recollections

It's also what I suggested he did.  Go back and read my post again.

But if he rendered the ToJ dialogue incompletely in the dream, that doesn't mean GRRM is trying to "keep us in the dark" about who Jon's parents are, or what happened at the ToJ, or who was in the ToJ.  

It only means he's not going to have characters hopping on tables and announcing things while breakdancing, to make sure we're paying attention

15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

there is a pervasive pattern of freckled redheads (both female and male) being associated with sacrifice

There do exist some who are killed.  There also exist some who are obviously not killed. 

The "pattern" that freckles = death is only about as strong as the "pattern" that Targaryens come to a gruesome end since Aegon the Conqueror.  You can easily find examples, but you can also easily find counterexamples, so it isn't much of a pattern.

[Frey family reunion]

24 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I'm not sure the promise was just to keep Jon safe. Not sure Lyanna would need to ask that specifically of her brother.

If Jon is Lyannas son then Keeping Jon's identity safe has as a minimum: 

* Compromised his relationship with his wife.

* Forced him to lie to Jon about his parentage all his life.

* Brought a degree of shame on honourable Bed, father of a bastard.

If Jon is also Rhaegars: 

* He has lied to his best friend all his life.

* And in so doing potential robbed the kingdom of its rightful king if he was legitimate.

The Direwolves might be snarling because Neds lies have kept the 300 year old kings of winter from ascending to power because by denying the son of a Targaryen they have also denied the Son of a Stark a crown?

I suppose, it just doesn't ring true to me.  The Targaryen kingdom was a blip on the radar compared to the Stark dynasty's rule as kings of winter for thousands of years.  The Starks to the best of my knowledge never harbored ambitions for conquering all of Westeros, nor did they ever make the attempt to the best of my knowledge.  At the very least it has never been established in the books.

But there has been an insistence that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  The eldest son of the eldest son has always been the rightful heir to Winterfell.  Eddard remarks that Winterfell was supposed to have gone to Brandon, he was the one who was trained to be the ruler, Ned never asked for the cup to be passed to him.  But if Eddard was keeping Jon's parentage a secret because of incest between Lyanna and Brandon, then Eddard is also robbing Brandon's son of his rightful place in Winterfell.  Eddard could easily see that he is being judged by the King's of Winter harshly for his decision and this deception.

This would also more easily coincide with Jon's plot.  Jon is haunted by dreams of coveting Winterfell and slaying Eddard and Robb to obtain it.  

[JNR]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But if Eddard was keeping Jon's parentage a secret because of incest between Lyanna and Brandon, then Eddard is also robbing Brandon's son of his rightful place in Winterfell.

That's an interesting point and I see your logic.  However, there's this passage from ASOS:

Quote

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit."
"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."

Robb and Cat are talking about Jon being Robb's heir, of course.

The same would apply to Jon if he were Brandon's heir -- he would be a bastard and hence, "could not inherit."  So Ned would not have been robbing Jon of a thing in that scenario.

Unless Brandon and Lyanna got married somehow... but that I find pretty hard to buy.

[Frey family reunion]

5 minutes ago, JNR said:

 

Unless Brandon and Lyanna got married somehow... but that I find pretty hard to buy.

Unless those crazy kids got themselves married in front of a heart tree, which the books have established as being a legit First Man marriage, even without the presence of a Septon.  Which makes me wonder who the witnesses might be.  Maybe Ben, who is sent to the Night's Watch after the war is over?

ETA: and Lyanna did disappear near Harrenhal, and there does happen to be a heart tree there.

[Prof. Cecily]

49 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The "Isle" in question is surrounded by a salt marsh, which could also lead to the salt imagery.  I think the locale is supposed to be based on Glastonbury and the Sommerset level.   There is a myth concerning Glastonbury that it was the location of the graves of King Arthur and Queen Guinevere.  In another tale Guinevere is abducted and taken to Glastonbury.

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it's surrounded by a salt marsh.

Actually, it's not.

Quote

The tide was going out now, and swiftly. The water that separated the island from the shore was receding, leaving behind a broad expanse of glistening brown mudflats dotted by tidal pools that glittered like golden coins in the afternoon sun. Brienne scratched the back of her neck, where an insect had bitten her. She had pinned her hair up, and the sun had warmed her skin.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

For a visual reference, Mont st Michel

http://www.francetourisme.fr/images/excursions/mont_saint_michel.jpg

What I find most interesting in this discussion are the Arthurian references. And the Glastonbury catch, @Frey family reunion.

Sweet!

 

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Unless those crazy kids got themselves married in front of a heart tree, which the books have established as being a legit First Man marriage, even without the presence of a Septon.  Which makes me wonder who the witnesses might be.  Maybe Ben, who is sent to the Night's Watch after the war is over?

I'm listening to a Nerd Soup podcast as I type and it's just been mentioned that there was an itinerant Septon in the Riverlands with powers to perform weddings. 

[Black Crow]

35 minutes ago, JNR said:

So we can conclude confidently that Aerys, in this time of mortal danger, would never have left three Kingsguard (including Dayne, the deadliest) in some faraway place like the ToJ if he could possibly have summoned them to defend him weeks or months before. 

Well that's assuming that they were at the tower. or rather assuming at the tower all along. The answer to Lord Eddard's question as to where they were was "far away" not "here"

I still hold that they only fore-gathered at the tower by appointment to meet the magnificent seven and that whatever orders they were following were indeed "far away"

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Excellent point.  Why does the promise Eddard made to Lyanna haunt him after he has his conversation with Cersei about revealing her secret incest to Robert?  Eddard feels guilty because he is able to spot Cersei and Jaime's secret because he knows about Lyanna and Brandon's secret.  And Eddard knows that while Jaime and Cersei's incest makes Joffrey an illegitimate heir to the Iron Throne, it is Eddard's knowledge of Brandon and Lyanna's incest that makes his own children illegitimate heirs to Winterfell, and it is Jon who is being robbed of his rightful inheritance.  The irony is pretty interesting.

I found this little tidbit in an old SSM while doing some research last night:

Q:  Now, Ned is dead and we will never know for sure unless you tell us, but what would his options as a honorable man be if he found himself brother to Cersei and son to Tywin?

A:  Ned had his own siblings, and his own moral quandaries.

[Frey family reunion]

9 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Actually, it's not.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

For a visual reference, Mont st Michel

http://www.francetourisme.fr/images/excursions/mont_saint_michel.jpg

What I find most interesting in this discussion are the Arthurian references. And the Glastonbury catch, @Frey family reunion.

Sweet!

 

I'm listening to a Nerd Soup podcast as I type and it's just been mentioned that there was an itinerant Septon in the Riverlands with powers to perform weddings. 

I suppose it's possible, but I doubt they would have used a septon.  If they Benjen and Lyanna did marry before their arranged nuptials, it would have been done as a big "f you" to their father and his southron ambitions.  So I assume they would have followed the "old way" and married in front of a heart tree without a septon.  It would have been a rejection of the Andal influence creeping into Winterfell.

Of course a good argument against this is Brandon's participation in the tourney of Harrenhal.  It appears that Brandon himself, was beginning to take on the customs of the south.  

ETA: I guess I interpreted these mudflats to be a salt marsh, and since it was caused by tidal waters, it would be salty.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, PrettyPig said:

I found this little tidbit in an old SSM while doing some research last night:

Q:  Now, Ned is dead and we will never know for sure unless you tell us, but what would his options as a honorable man be if he found himself brother to Cersei and son to Tywin?

A:  Ned had his own siblings, and his own moral quandaries.

Heh.