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Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West


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17 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

and thirdly -- and most mysteriously -- that Jon opened his mystical 'third eye' even before Bran

Very neat!   I did some work on 'third eye' significance w/r/t Bran and Jon over at the HoBaW forum in relation to a totally different subject, and I was surprised to see that, in terms of comparison to the real Hindu mythology, Jon has much more in common with the god Shiva and may actually end up being the 'destructor' when he finally, fully, opens his third eye.   That theme is surfacing throughout multiple angles and mythologies, actually - which leads me to believe that the quiet wolf is the one people should really be worried about.

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I very much enjoyed the posts and analysis of @Frey family reunion and @ravenous reader regarding Jon being the incestuous son of Brandon and Lyanna. I've read King Monkey's Stark + Lyanna = Jon when Heresy did the parentage essays, but the connections put forth by you two were absolutely brilliant and more convincing.

While the pairing makes a lot of sense it still doesn't explain Lyanna's disappearance, who had her, and where she was found. I am not convinced Rhaegar had anything to do with it. I think her disappearance had more to do with removing a potential queen than using her son in a magic ritual. That's not to say I don't believe the tower of joy wasn't a magic ritual, because I believe that it was. Just like Dany hoped to resurrect Drogo I think it's possible the Kingsguard hoped to resurrect Rhaegar. If a baby was needed for the tower of joy ritual, Ashara as a mother is not far-fetched. Her closeness to Elia as her handmaiden puts her in closer proximity to Rhaegar than Lyanna. 

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4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I've been meaning to tell you, this is a really interesting, imaginative and well-argued theory! -snip-

Thanks Ravenous.  But oddly enough when I started the thread, I wasn't intending on ending up with that conclusion.  I initially thought that perhaps Lyanna was the victim of a rape (perhaps Brandon, perhaps Rhaegar) and the promise that was haunting Eddard was a dark request to kill Jon.  But the quotes led me away from that conclusion pretty quickly.  Lyanna wanted to return to Winterfell and be buried next to Brandon.  Eddard wouldn't be haunted by a broken promise to kill Jon, considering that Jon turned out to be a pretty decent guy.  

The only thing that left me with, and the only broken promise that I could see Eddard making is not giving Jon Winterfell.  That scenario makes a great inverse of what was happening in King's Landing with the Lannisters, and also dovetails perfectly with Jon's storyline.

But I agree with JNR and Feather that there are still a lot of issues with that theory.  Namely how does Rhaegar fit into it?  It's tempting to take him completely out of the equation with Jon's birth, but I still go back to Harrenhal, and Brandon's certainty that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and the fact that Eddard at least through his dreams links the tower of joy with the promises made at Lyanna's death bed.  We know there were multiple promises made, and we know that consciously Eddard recalls the sacrifices that he made to keep his promise.  But we also know that subconsciously Eddard dreams of blood and broken promises.

A promise to rescue Jon from the tower of joy fulfilled by Eddard seems to fit.  And a promise to make Jon the heir to Winterfell fits as the broken promise that continues to haunt Eddard.  

But, aaargh, how to fit Rhaegar into this is a hard riddle to figure.  Namely if Rhaegar was more interested in Lyanna's unborn child than he is in Lyanna, how would he know so very early on of her pregnancy when he and his buddies ride out (the World Book really evokes the Wild Hunt with that imagery), that it was time to nab her?

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On 6/18/2017 at 4:50 PM, JNR said:

Well, it's your position, apparently, that Brienne has been sacrificed (your word, not mine).

I asked you how; you pointed out a swordfight with Jaime that she won.

Except, he did inflict a blow to her 'upper thigh' (god, GRRM's not that subtle with his double entendre, is he?) drawing blood -- and not any kind of blood, mind you -- the 'bloom of her red flowering'...the sight of which Jaime 'savored'...oh god, I'm feeling queasy -- what is this feeling I'm feeling...;)..?

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime III

Instead she forced him back into the brook again, shouting, "Yield! Throw down the sword!"

A slick stone turned under Jaime's foot. As he felt himself falling, he twisted the mischance into a diving lunge. His point scraped past her parry and bit into her upper thigh. A red flower blossomed, and Jaime had an instant to savor the sight of her blood before his knee slammed into a rock. The pain was blinding. Brienne splashed into him and kicked away his sword. "YIELD!"

Later on, as if it wasn't enough to be 'bitten' by the 'point' of Jaime's 'sword' -- oh my, I'm blushing now...:blush::blushing:...-- Brienne is bitten again in the face by Biter (no need to unpack that one...):

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VII

She hit him again, again, again, smashing the heel of her hand into his eye, but he did not seem to feel her blows. She clawed at his wrists, but his grip just grew tighter, though blood ran from the gouges where she scratched him. He was crushing her, smothering her. She pushed at his shoulders to get him off her, but he was heavy as a horse, impossible to move. When she tried to knee him in the groin, all she did was drive her knee into his belly. Grunting, Biter tore out a handful of her hair.

My dagger. Brienne clutched at the thought, desperate. She worked her hand down between them, fingers squirming under his sour, suffocating flesh, searching until they finally found the hilt. Biter locked both his hands about her neck and began to slam her head against the ground. The lightning flashed again, this time inside her skull, yet somehow her fingers tightened, pulled the dagger from its sheath. With him on top of her, she could not raise the blade to stab, so she drew it hard across his belly. Something warm and wet gushed between her fingers. Biter hissed again, louder than before, and let go of her throat just long enough to smash her in the face. She heard bones crack, and the pain blinded her for an instant. When she tried to slash at him again, he wrenched the dagger from her fingers and slammed a knee down onto her forearm, breaking it. Then he seized her head again and resumed trying to tear it off her shoulders.

Brienne could hear Dog barking, and men were shouting all about her, and between the claps of thunder she heard the clash of steel on steel. Ser Hyle, she thought, Ser Hyle has joined the fight, but all that seemed far away and unimportant. Her world was no larger than the hands at her throat and the face that loomed above her. The rain ran off his hood as he leaned closer. His breath stank like cheese gone rotten.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

She had a horse beneath her, though she could not remember mounting. She lay facedown across his hindquarters, like a sack of oats. Her wrists and ankles had been lashed together. The air was damp, the ground cloaked in mist. Her head pounded with every step. She could hear voices, but all she could see was the earth beneath the horse's hooves. There were things broken inside of her. Her face felt swollen, her cheek was sticky with blood, and every jounce and bounce send a stab of agony through her arm. She could hear Podrick calling her, as if from far away. "Ser?" he kept saying. "Ser? My lady? Ser? My lady?" His voice was faint and hard to hear. Finally, there was only silence.

She dreamt she was at Harrenhal, down in the bear pit once again. This time it was Biter facing her, huge and bald and maggot-white, with weeping sores upon his cheeks. Naked he came, fondling his member, gnashing his filed teeth together. Brienne fled from him. "My sword," she called. "Oathkeeper. Please." The watchers did not answer. Renly was there, with Nimble Dick and Catelyn Stark. Shagwell, Pyg, and Timeon had come, and the corpses from the trees with their sunken cheeks, swollen tongues, and empty eye sockets. Brienne wailed in horror at the sight of them, and Biter grabbed her arm and yanked her close and tore a chunk from her face. "Jaime," she heard herself scream, "Jaime."

Even in the depths of dream the pain was there. Her face throbbed. Her shoulder bled. Breathing hurt. The pain crackled up her arm like lightning. She cried out for a maester.

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

"Aye. A real monster, that one."

It all came back to her; lightning above and mud below, the rain pinging softly against the dark steel of the Hound's helm, the terrible strength in Biter's hands. Suddenly she could not stand being bound. She tried to wrench free of her ropes, but all that did was chafe her worse. Her wrists were tied too tightly. There was dried blood on the hemp. "Is he dead?" She trembled. "Biter. Is he dead?" She remembered his teeth tearing into the flesh of her face. The thought that he might still be out there somewhere, breathing, made Brienne want to scream.

"He's dead. Gendry shoved a spearpoint through the back of his neck. Drink, m'lady, or I'll pour it down your throat."

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

She did not know where she was. The air was cold and heavy, and smelled of earth and worms and mold. She was lying on a pallet beneath a mound of sheepskins, with rock above her head and roots poking through the walls. The only light came from a tallow candle, smoking in a pool of melted wax.

She pushed aside the sheepskins. Someone had stripped her of her clothes and armor, she saw. She was clad in a brown woolen shift, thin but freshly washed. Her forearm had been splinted and bound up with linen, though. One side of her face felt wet and stiff. When she touched herself, she found some sort of damp poultice covering her cheek and jaw and ear. Biter . . .

Brienne got to her feet. Her legs felt weak as water, her head as light as air. "Is anyone there?"

 

 . . . a human bite is a filthy thing. That is where the fever came from, I am certain." The grey man touched her bandaged face. "We had to cut away some of the flesh. Your face will not be pretty, I fear."

It has never been pretty. "Scars, you mean?"

"My lady, that creature chewed off half your cheek."

Did you carefully read through all those painful passages, with disturbing sexual overtones?  If so, I'm confident that you won't be able to contend that Brienne is not sacrificed!

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I was left with the sense that you see all swordfights as symbolic of sex

LOL.  Eh...no...that would be an overstatement.  There is no sex for example in my favorite duel, that between Waymar and the Other in the Prologue!

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, which is symbolic of orgasms

My goodness...May I remind you that you are the one fixated on orgasms.  I was only talking about forsaking ones maidenhood, which has nothing to do with being orgasmic!

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, which is symbolic of death,

Ze plot thickens...(this is becoming a cliche...and I don't do cliche...)...

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and so even though Brienne didn't lose, didn't die, and certainly didn't have an orgasm while fighting Jaime, still she was somehow sacrificed.

Let's just agree the 'rumpy pumpy' with Jaime left its impression -- and Lady Stoneheart should be scared, real scared of the 'true death' rather than the 'petite mort'...!

What makes you so sure a woman surrendering her maidenhead has 'lost' the duel?!  ;)

ETA:  I see I wasn't being entirely ;) logical here, so to address your concern that 'Brienne didn't lose,' I've argued that she symbolically lost her maidenhead to Jaime (and, reading between the lines, her heart) -- and, what's more, Brienne 'losing' to Jaime, despite ostensibly 'winning' the duel, translates as Catelyn/Stoneheart's loss, which could have some bearing on future plot developments.  Sacrifice results in bonding (check the Lightbringer forging myth, in which the 'sacrifice' of the woman, whatever you construe that to be, results in her lifeforce 'bonding' with the sword).  In Brienne's bonding journey with Jaime, she has essentially weakened or even broken her bonds with Cat/Stoneheart -- and I predict out of loyalty and love to Jaime, she will also end up breaking her oath.

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Along similar lines, it would follow that Arthur Dayne died and had an orgasm with the Smiling Knight

I can't imagine Arthur Dayne having an orgasm.  He's too pure.  The closest he came to having an orgasm was when he knighted Jaime -- drawing the young lion's blood ...'oohh...' -- with the words, 'all knights must bleed...it is the seal of our devotion'!

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, and Selmy had multiple deaths and multiple orgasms cutting his way to Maelys the Monstrous

Oh JNR, I must stop you here.  You are having far too much fun despoiling Maelys's monstrosities!

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, and... on and on in these books.  (No wonder they're such dedicated warriors!)

OK. I think it's time GRRM gave us a new book.  There seem to be far too many orgasms and not enough new books.  It's taking a toll on your moral integrity, not to mention your literary sensibility!

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This is an extraordinary position to take, but I've certainly seen more extraordinary yet.  (TRJS, I'm looking at you.)

It's also apparently your position Anguy the Archer has been sacrificed.  Anguy seems so far unexplained as a sacrificial victim, but I'm sure an explanation is forthcoming.

Don't blame me.  GRRM is not consistent with his metaphors.  I will look into Anguy, the only guy to have escaped the ginger curse...

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6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But I agree with JNR and Feather that there are still a lot of issues with that theory.  Namely how does Rhaegar fit into it?  It's tempting to take him completely out of the equation with Jon's birth, but I still go back to Harrenhal, and Brandon's certainty that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and the fact that Eddard at least through his dreams links the tower of joy with the promises made at Lyanna's death bed.  We know there were multiple promises made, and we know that consciously Eddard recalls the sacrifices that he made to keep his promise.  But we also know that subconsciously Eddard dreams of blood and broken promises.

If the Bael story is well known as a fake cover story for any Stark bastard born of incest, then the dropping of the laurel in Lyanna's lap might be considered an insult. The Starks would view the action as though Rhaegar was accusing Lyanna of incest. The song that made Lyanna "sniffle" may also have been about the Bael story, and the source of her tears embarrassment. The two things together would be the information that led Brandon to believe the news that Rhaegar took his sister was true. I still believe Rhaegar was setup to take the fall and that the Lannister's are responsible for abducting Lyanna. Littlefinger's appointments may be rewards for his part in the ruse, and his motivations were to get back at him for Cat.

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6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

, but I still go back to Harrenhal, and Brandon's certainty that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and the fact that Eddard at least through his dreams links the tower of joy with the promises made at Lyanna's death bed.  We know there were multiple promises made, and we know that consciously Eddard recalls the sacrifices that he made to keep his promise.  But we also know that subconsciously Eddard dreams of blood and broken promises.

A promise to rescue Jon from the tower of joy fulfilled by Eddard seems to fit.  And a promise to make Jon the heir to Winterfell fits as the broken promise that continues to haunt Eddard.  

But, aaargh, how to fit Rhaegar into this is a hard riddle to figure.  Namely if Rhaegar was more interested in Lyanna's unborn child than he is in Lyanna, how would he know so very early on of her pregnancy when he and his buddies ride out (the World Book really evokes the Wild Hunt with that imagery), that it was time to nab her?

Welllll.Lyanna did ask to lay with Brandon AND father.If she had only specified Brandon my eyebrows would raise.

Likewise, we don't know what Brandon was thinking when he went to the Red Keep.Let alone if it had anything to do with kidnapping.

Per Jamie his thought was about Rhaegar coming out and dying.Even Jamie and Robb demanded their siblings back.

All we know is Brandon heard about Lyanna.We can guess he heard that Lyanna was kidnapped but what he did doesn't evoke images of a rescue mission to get Lyanna back.

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Except, he did inflict a blow to her 'upper thigh' (god, GRRM's not that subtle with his double entendre, is he?) drawing blood -- and not any kind of blood, mind you -- the 'bloom of her red flowering'...the sight of which Jaime 'savored'...oh god, I'm feeling queasy -- what is this feeling I'm feeling...;)..?

 

I for one go as far as to say the Biter scene had sexual overtures.But the Jamie scene...You bet your holy tamales.

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44 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the Bael story is a well known euphemism for Stark bastards born of incest, then the dropping of the laurel in Lyanna's lap might be considered an insult. The Starks would view the action as though Rhaegar was accusing Lyanna of incest. The song that made Lyanna "sniffle" may also have been about the Bael story, and the source of her tears embarrassment. The two things together would be the information that led Brandon to believe the news that Rhaegar took his sister was true. I still believe Rhaegar was setup to take the fall and that the Lannister's are responsible for abducting Lyanna. Littlefinger's appointments may be rewards for his part in the ruse, and his motivations were to get back at him for Cat.

How we get the Bael story meaning incest to? Tit for tat insult yes.

I will note another theme.

Singers don't fair well with maidens in this story.

Lord Mathis Rowan's daughter who called rape under her father's gaze which led to poor Daeron being sent to The Wall.

Marillion tries to rape Sansa, gets blamed for killing Lysa.Sansa lets him take the blame.

The blue bard good looking dude girls like him used as a pawn to bring Margery down.Blamed for seducing Margery.

There is a pattern...Singers who run across maidens being used,accused getting royaly screwed.

Now in all honesty I think it is possible  Bael was an oppurtunist.He claimed being the father of the Stark maiden's daughter when he wasn't.

It gave him a line though false to Winterfell and the real father remained anonymous and Stark maiden kept her secret.

If the Stark maiden was the pregnant girl in Bran's vision praying for a son to avenge her,then she was wronged.Therefore,its either..

1.Bael raped her and it was him she referenced in her prayer.Ygritte's story was lying when it claimed the maiden loved Bael.

2.Bael took the blame for something he didn't do and the maiden went with the flow of everyone thinking the babe was Bael.Secretly, praying vengeance on the real culprit.

But looking at the pattern these singers were more or less innocent of what they were accused.

Somehow I think this pattern continued with Harrenhal.

So, i come back to what I wrote in the previous post.What was it if anything did Brandon hear about Lyanna?

 

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9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I for one go as far as to say the Biter scene had sexual overtures.But the Jamie scene...You bet your holy tamales.

The Jaime scene is configured as a loss of virginity (Jaime's 'point' eliciting the red flower blossoming on the euphemism of her 'upper thigh') vs. the Biter scenes which are framed as a rape/sexual assault.  The sexual overtones are revealed by how Brienne's dreams conflate Jaime and Biter, together with the reference to Biter coming at her naked 'fondling his member'!  The passage in question:

15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

She dreamt she was at Harrenhal, down in the bear pit once again. This time it was Biter facing her, huge and bald and maggot-white, with weeping sores upon his cheeks. Naked he came, fondling his member, gnashing his filed teeth together. Brienne fled from him. "My sword," she called. "Oathkeeper. Please." The watchers did not answer. Renly was there, with Nimble Dick and Catelyn Stark. Shagwell, Pyg, and Timeon had come, and the corpses from the trees with their sunken cheeks, swollen tongues, and empty eye sockets. Brienne wailed in horror at the sight of them, and Biter grabbed her arm and yanked her close and tore a chunk from her face. "Jaime," she heard herself scream, "Jaime."

ETA: There's also the symbolism involved in Biter's tongue with which he is devouring Brienne being replaced by Gendry's long sword, an obvious phallic allusion; ergo, when Biter penetrates Brienne's flesh with his sharp teeth and insatiable tongue, it's akin to a sexual assault (as might be a traumatic reaction to being sexually assaulted, Brienne even dissociates in the moment, watching it all happen to her body as if it were happening 'to some other woman'):

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VII

Brienne could hear Dog barking, and men were shouting all about her, and between the claps of thunder she heard the clash of steel on steel. Ser Hyle, she thought, Ser Hyle has joined the fight, but all that seemed far away and unimportant. Her world was no larger than the hands at her throat and the face that loomed above her. The rain ran off his hood as he leaned closer. His breath stank like cheese gone rotten.

Brienne's chest was burning, and the storm was behind her eyes, blinding her. Bones ground against each other inside of her. Biter's mouth gaped open, impossibly wide. She saw his teeth, yellow and crooked, filed into points. When they closed on the soft meat of her cheek, she hardly felt it. She could feel herself spiraling down into the dark. I cannot die yet, she told herself, there is something I still need to do.

Biter's mouth tore free, full of blood and flesh. He spat, grinned, and sank his pointed teeth into her flesh again. This time he chewed and swallowed. He is eating me, she realized, but she had no strength left to fight him any longer. She felt as if she were floating above herself, watching the horror as if it were happening to some other woman, to some stupid girl who thought she was a knight. It will be finished soon, she told herself. Then it will not matter if he eats me. Biter threw back his head and opened his mouth again, howling, and stuck his tongue out at her. It was sharply pointed, dripping blood, longer than any tongue should be. Sliding from his mouth, out and out and out, red and wet and glistening, it made a hideous sight, obscene. His tongue is a foot long, Brienne thought, just before the darkness took her. Why, it looks almost like a sword.

 

@GloubieBoulga  I was looking at the passage above in a different context and thought of your bastard speculations surrounding the Winterfell taboo.  Given that Biter is described as an animal literally eating as well as symbolically raping Brienne, and that GRRM tells us several times how he is 'howling' like a wolf (the same way wolves throw their heads back and howl); and then the curious line I highlighted that Brienne thinks it is happening 'to some other woman, to some stupid girl who thought she was a knight' (which on the surface is indicative of her dissociative psychological reaction to the trauma, but on a literary level might also be a nod to some other event, literally some other woman); do you think this could be a clue as to the pregnant woman swearing vengeance emerging from the black pool in Bran's vision?  Was the rapist the one with the 'wolf blood'?  Any further thoughts?  Btw, who was Danny Flint and how is she related to the Starks?  The line about the girl who fancied herself a knight and was brutalized is reminiscent of that story.

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On 18 June 2017 at 4:54 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think Aegon was smuggled out of King's Landing because of fear of a sack.  I think he was "smuggled" out of King's Landing because Rhaegar planned on making Aegon a part of his dragon hatching ritual at the tower of joy.

He smuggled Aegon, who he believed to be the second head of the dragon, out of kings landing - but left Rhaenys (who would be the first head) still inside kings landing? So how is his sacrifice rutial going to be completed when he only has two heads (aegon and Jon) at the tower of joy, and he's missing Rhaenys?

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46 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The Jaime scene is configured as a loss of virginity (Jaime's 'point' eliciting the red flower blossoming on the euphemism of her 'upper thigh') vs. the Biter scenes which are framed as a rape/sexual assault.  The sexual overtones are revealed by how Brienne's dreams conflate Jaime and Biter, together with the reference to Biter coming at her naked 'fondling his member'!  The passage in question:

 

Well even in the actual fight it was sexualized in a rather "rapey" fashion

"Biter threw back his head and opened his mouth again, howling, and stuck his tongue out at her. It was sharply pointed, dripping blood, longer than any tongue should be. Sliding from his mouth, out and out and out, red and wet and glistening, it made a hideous sight, obscene. His tongue is a foot long, Brienne thought, just before the darkness took her. Why, it looks almost like a sword."

But what is interesting as we speak of dreams is the conflating of Jamie and Biter.This is an example of conflating two separate events but we can look and see what was the common element or the common perceived element. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Btw, who was Danny Flint and how is she related to the Starks?  The line about the girl who fancied herself a knight and was brutalized is reminiscent of that story.

Danny Flint was distantly related to Stark family, most probably a hundred years or so before the book was set (tho we can't be sure, we don't have a specific year or year or dates). The Flint family is more closely related to the stark family now, as Arya Flint (who married Rodrik Stark) was Brandon, Ned, Lyanna and Ben's maternal grandmother. Meaning that Danny Flint would have been around way before the books were set and probably descended from the Starks. 

The Dany Flint story was something about her flattening her chest down or something and chopped her hair off so she looked like a boy, all to join the nights watch. But once she did, others had found out that she was female - and she ended up being brutally raped and murdered.

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On 18 June 2017 at 5:49 PM, Black Crow said:

Thanks for Darry

This is of course a very popular argument, but GRRM when pressed on the matter stated that they were obeying orders:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

 Now it could be said that Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna because she was carrying his child and it could be that GRRM answered the question thus to avoid committing himself to an admission that they were guarding the last best hope of House Targaryen, but given that qualification that they "protect the king and the royal family [which would include Jon Targaryen and his lawfully wedded mother] but they're also bound to obey their orders" strongly suggests something else and means that the guarding the heir is only a theory, not a given.

Yeah the other side of the argument could be that Rhaegar ordered the kingsguard to stay at the tower. But that all ends the minute they found out about Rhaegars death. The kingsguard don't follow a kings/princes orders once they are dead, which can be seen in AGOT - where Robert writes in his will his orders to which should take place after his death. But once Robert was dead and the will torn up, no one, not even the kingsguard cared about following Roberts orders anymore. 

To be honest, I'm not really sure about this matter. There's evidence for and against both of them both, so i can believe in both a little. 

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36 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

He smuggled Aegon, who he believed to be the second head of the dragon, out of kings landing - but left Rhaenys (who would be the first head) still inside kings landing? So how is his sacrifice rutial going to be completed when he only has two heads (aegon and Jon) at the tower of joy, and he's missing Rhaenys?

I think Rhaegar believed Aegon to be the Prince that was Promised but I don't think that this means he necessarily thought that his daughter was one of the other heads of the dragon.  I think the three heads were all slated as.a sacrifice and I think each probably had their own unique source of "king's blood".  In other words sacrificing Aegon and Rhaenys would be redundant.

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6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

How we get the Bael story meaning incest to? Tit for tat insult yes.

I will note another theme.

Singers don't fair well with maidens in this story.

Lord Mathis Rowan's daughter who called rape under her father's gaze which led to poor Daeron being sent to The Wall.

Marillion tries to rape Sansa, gets blamed for killing Lysa.Sansa lets him take the blame.

The blue bard good looking dude girls like him used as a pawn to bring Margery down.Blamed for seducing Margery.

There is a pattern...Singers who run across maidens being used,accused getting royaly screwed.

Now in all honesty I think it is possible  Bael was an oppurtunist.He claimed being the father of the Stark maiden's daughter when he wasn't.

It gave him a line though false to Winterfell and the real father remained anonymous and Stark maiden kept her secret.

If the Stark maiden was the pregnant girl in Bran's vision praying for a son to avenge her,then she was wronged.Therefore,its either..

1.Bael raped her and it was him she referenced in her prayer.Ygritte's story was lying when it claimed the maiden loved Bael.

2.Bael took the blame for something he didn't do and the maiden went with the flow of everyone thinking the babe was Bael.Secretly, praying vengeance on the real culprit.

But looking at the pattern these singers were more or less innocent of what they were accused.

Somehow I think this pattern continued with Harrenhal.

So, i come back to what I wrote in the previous post.What was it if anything did Brandon hear about Lyanna?

 

This is all speculation, wolfmaid. I was theorizing that in the original Bael story that the singer was falsely accused and the father of the baby was either her brother or her father, and that they kept her hidden during her pregnancy. After the baby is born, produce the daughter and the child and say that she was returned when she never left at all. Furthermore, I was positing that the story was an open secret, that everyone knew the tale and that it was a ruse for incest. 

Thank you for the text about Sansa and Marrillion. I think this is a repeat of the Bael story.

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11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

This is all speculation, wolfmaid. I was theorizing that in the original Bael story that the singer was falsely accused and the father of the baby was either her brother or her father, and that they kept her hidden during her pregnancy. After the baby is born, produce the daughter and the child and say that she was returned when she never left at all. Furthermore, I was positing that the story was an open secret, that everyone knew the tale and that it was a ruse for incest. 

Thank you for the text about Sansa and Marrillion. I think this is a repeat of the Bael story.

Oh i know it was speculation  i missed part of that discussion to my shame so if it came off wrong apologies.I got my bearings now.I also agree and like where you are going with questioning the Bael story.I always kind of wondered what if Bael was the willing scapegoat?

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26 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Oh i know it was speculation  i missed part of that discussion to my shame so if it came off wrong apologies.I got my bearings now.I also agree and like where you are going with questioning the Bael story.I always kind of wondered what if Bael was the willing scapegoat?

If the theory is true then Rhaegar could have simply blundered. He may have thought he was honoring Lyanna with the blue roses not knowing that he was basically accusing her of participating in incest.

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3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

@GloubieBoulga  I was looking at the passage above in a different context and thought of your bastard speculations surrounding the Winterfell taboo.  Given that Biter is described as an animal literally eating as well as symbolically raping Brienne, and that GRRM tells us several times how he is 'howling' like a wolf (the same way wolves throw their heads back and howl); and then the curious line I highlighted that Brienne thinks it is happening 'to some other woman, to some stupid girl who thought she was a knight' (which on the surface is indicative of her dissociative psychological reaction to the trauma, but on a literary level might also be a nod to some other event, literally some other woman); do you think this could be a clue as to the pregnant woman swearing vengeance emerging from the black pool in Bran's vision?  Was the rapist the one with the 'wolf blood'?  Any further thoughts?  Btw, who was Danny Flint and how is she related to the Starks?  The line about the girl who fancied herself a knight and was brutalized is reminiscent of that story.

Thanks for sharing this ! Yes, the "some other woman" has different significations (non-exclusiv) and I had forgotten this little sentence. I wonder about what could here represent Biter : the "wolf blood" seems obvious, but is it the "true" wolf blood or is it something à la Ramsay Snow (I mean the one who inherits the "wolfblood" after having stolen it) ? 

It would be interesting to look for the moon in this passage, and if there are also shadows, because working about the Others, I found that their 2 appearances had different circumstances : the first (Prologue AGOT), there is the moon and a wolf howling; the second (attack of the Fist and Sam's long walk), there is a bear and the howl of a baby but no moon and no wolf : it seems to me that the 2 events are telling 2 different stories with different characters. In the case of Brienne and Biter, it could effectively tell the story of a rape, before the birth of a bastard, or the legitim rape (=the marriage) with the official heir of the "wolf character" (who is greedy but had stolen the wolfblood; a kind of Joffrey, too, not only Ramsay). There is also the real cannibalism in this scene, not only the sexual symbolism, and I think that real cannibalism is a part of the story. That remains me of this quote from Cersei, when she is trying to take Robert's place with lady Taena : 

Quote

She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs. (Cersei VII, AFFC)

 

Giving the fact that Biter is Rorge creature/shadow/hand/dog, the question is who was behind the rapist of the maiden ? And also what kind of creature was left alone without a master ? Is it reliated to the obligation of having a Stark at Winterfell ? 

Edit : I re-read the whole scene behind the inn, and thank you very much to have pointed toward it. So, the fight between Rorge and Brienne is a mimic of the fight between the Other and ser Waymar. They dance, and Rorge's axe is shadow or silver when he moves it. The difference is that Brienne has valyrian steel and she can kill Rorge. The other outlaws are just looking at the show. 

After the fight with Rorge, here comes the 2nd "shadow", like "an avalanche" : is there an allusion to a giant ? This time this is a "wolf/dog" with lamb/ram/goat skin - Biter wears wool - which is Ramsay's like, but can also figure the attack of a ram/goat and suggests a mix between "ramblood" and "wolfblood"; or, it could also figure the use of a ram - or a boar - as a weapon. This fight could be an echo of the fight between Robert and the boar. At the end, Cersei eats the boar at a funeral feast. There is also the imitation of the second encounter with an Other : Brienne replay Smallpaul (who is described as a she-bear with her baby-Sam), sacrificing her/him to protect children, and particulary a bastard boy (Gendry/Sam who is described as a baby new born who can't walk and was rejected by his own father). Brienne want to use her dagger but she can't and succed only to open her own belly, as if it was a symbollic birthing. After her death by birthing, Gendry kills Biter, but Brienne sees only a long sword : perhaps we can read that like an echo of Nissa-Nissa dying giving birth to Lightbringer. 

I've made it a bit too fast. But in conclusion, I wonder if in the past, a anti-lightbringer was create, or perhaps a "darkbringer" (symbollic, I mean ^^)

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On 6/16/2017 at 10:55 AM, ravenous reader said:

 

THE COLLECTIVE CONSOLATIONS OF NOT KNOWING... :commie:

:dunno:

:cheers:  You can learn a lot from a wild redhead. 

 

I should use that "tower of joy–Rorschach" line more often. It's one of my better quips, and the capitalization alone speaks volumes. :D

@markg171 added a very nice collection of things we do not know/do not fit re: RLJ, in this thread.

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14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think Rhaegar believed Aegon to be the Prince that was Promised but I don't think that this means he necessarily thought that his daughter was one of the other heads of the dragon.  I think the three heads were all slated as.a sacrifice and I think each probably had their own unique source of "king's blood".  In other words sacrificing Aegon and Rhaenys would be redundant.

It is emphasised in the books (like in dany's house of the undying vision) that Rhaegar believed Rhaenys to be the first head and Aegon the second. It's why he says "there must be one more," because he knew Elia couldn't give him a third child - which would cause him to believe his child with Lyanna (Jon) would be the third head. So if he wanted to hatch dragons, he would sacrifice all three children in the ritual, as he would know just two wouldn't have worked. Even Dany knew to put ALL three sacrifices (Drogo, Rhaego and that red priest) into the fire when hatching her three dragons, so Rhaegar would be a fool for bringing only two of his children at the tower.

and anyway, Rhaegar didn't concieve three children to just sacrifice them for a dragon hatching ritual. He believed he had to have three children (three heads of the dragon) who would work together to save the world in the long night. Sort of like a Visenya-Aegon-Rhaenys threesome, who worked together to conquer.

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