Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

It is emphasised in the books (like in dany's house of the undying vision) that Rhaegar believed Rhaenys to be the first head and Aegon the second. It's why he says "there must be one more," because he knew Elia couldn't give him a third child - which would cause him to believe his child with Lyanna (Jon) would be the third head. So if he wanted to hatch dragons, he would sacrifice all three children in the ritual, as he would know just two wouldn't have worked. Even Dany knew to put ALL three sacrifices (Drogo, Rhaego and that red priest) into the fire when hatching her three dragons, so Rhaegar would be a fool for bringing only two of his children at the tower.

and anyway, Rhaegar didn't concieve three children to just sacrifice them for a dragon hatching ritual. He believed he had to have three children (three heads of the dragon) who would work together to save the world in the long night. Sort of like a Visenya-Aegon-Rhaenys threesome, who worked together to conquer.

Do we know the purpose of the 'Three Heads of the Dragon or the Prince that was Promised? The prophecies are discussed often enough, but not their purpose. Moreover, did the Targaryens believe another Long Night was coming?

Maester Aemon explained that "prince" was a mistranslation of "dragon", so was it really a human that they were hoping for or a dragon? The Targaryens were always trying to figure out how to hatch dragons. They believed, like Aegon V, that having dragons would bring about peace in the realm again. Wouldn't it make more sense that the Three Heads of the Dragon refers to three sacrifices needed to hatch a dragon, there by receiving the Dragon that was Promised?

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

It is emphasised in the books (like in dany's house of the undying vision) that Rhaegar believed Rhaenys to be the first head and Aegon the second. It's why he says "there must be one more," because he knew Elia couldn't give him a third child - which would cause him to believe his child with Lyanna (Jon) would be the third head. So if he wanted to hatch dragons, he would sacrifice all three children in the ritual, as he would know just two wouldn't have worked. Even Dany knew to put ALL three sacrifices (Drogo, Rhaego and that red priest) into the fire when hatching her three dragons, so Rhaegar would be a fool for bringing only two of his children at the tower.

and anyway, Rhaegar didn't concieve three children to just sacrifice them for a dragon hatching ritual. He believed he had to have three children (three heads of the dragon) who would work together to save the world in the long night. Sort of like a Visenya-Aegon-Rhaenys threesome, who worked together to conquer.

No, nowhere in the text does it state that Rhaegar believed Rhaenys to be on of the heads of the dragons.  Much like what I'm proposing, it's simply a theory, it's not established in the text.

For all we know the "first head" of the dragon, Rhaegar is referring to is himself.  After all, it takes two kings to wake the dragon, a father and a son, so both die kings.  Or the other head of a dragon could have been another child.  Nor am I convinced that Jon is or was to be one of the heads of the dragon.  Another possibility is that Rhaegar was gathering former Targaryen bloodlines that had split off from the main branch.  The Targaryens had not been able to hatch a dragon in well over a hundred years, so there may have been a distinct problem with their bloodlines.  Martin has taken pains to tell us of the history of the Targaryens and various offshoots of their line.  The Velaryons, the Plumms, the Longwaters, the Blackfyres, ect.  Or, if Rhaegar was trying to recreate Summerhall, he may have been trying to replicate the Targaryen bloodlines that existed at this time.  

As for you last thought, I think that the Prince that was Promised prophecy that Aemon and Rhaegar were so consumed with was the belief that they could transfer the consciousness of a Targaryen into a dragon.  They were looking to bring about a Valyrian sphinx, a dragon with the "head" of a man.  I think Rhaegar believed that the tower of joy would transfer Aegon's consciousness into a dragon, he would die only to be reborn into something much more powerful.

[JNR]

There's actually direct canonical support for the idea that the "three heads of the dragon" had nothing specifically to do with Rhaegar's children. 

It's this passage, about Aemon, from AFFC:

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He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

Here Aemon clearly implies that the three heads are advisers to the PtwP. 

Aemon thinks he could have been one (for Dany) and he can't possibly think he was one of Rhaegar's children. 

Now, just because Aemon interprets "three heads of the dragon" that way doesn't mean Rhaegar did too.  But we do know Aemon and Rhaegar corresponded on the subject of the PtwP for years, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had the same take.

[The Hidden Dragon]

35 minutes ago, JNR said:

It's this passage, about Aemon, from AFFC:

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He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

I wonder what Aemon means when he says "...showing her the way...".  I know he's talking about guiding her, but does he "know the way"?  How can you show someone the way without knowing the way. 

[wolfmaid7]

20 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

I wonder what Aemon means when he says "...showing her the way...".  I know he's talking about guiding her, but does he "know the way"?  How can you show someone the way without knowing the way. 

It could mean a general keeping her on the straight and narrow.

[WeKnowNothing]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do we know the purpose of the 'Three Heads of the Dragon or the Prince that was Promised? The prophecies are discussed often enough, but not their purpose. Moreover, did the Targaryens believe another Long Night was coming?

Maester Aemon explained that "prince" was a mistranslation of "dragon", so was it really a human that they were hoping for or a dragon? The Targaryens were always trying to figure out how to hatch dragons. They believed, like Aegon V, that having dragons would bring about peace in the realm again. Wouldn't it make more sense that the Three Heads of the Dragon refers to three sacrifices needed to hatch a dragon, there by receiving the Dragon that was Promised?

Many Targearyens believed that something bad was coming, not just for their house but for the realm in whole. Aenys I, Jaehearys II, Aegon V, Maester Aemon, and also Rhaegar were said to be convinced of this and therefore they all invested their lives in trying interprete the prophecy. They knew that something bad was coming, not for just the Targearyen's but for the realm in whole - and that's where the beliefs about "three heads of the dragon" and "the prince that was promised" comes from. No one is certain what "three heads of the dragon means," is it referring I three dragons who will be hatched? Three Targearyen members who will save the world? Or three sacrifices? "Dragon" can also be interpretated into "Targearyens,"like when Daemon Blackfrye II prophesised that a 'dragon' would be born under Whitehall - but we find out that it was only Egg revealing his true identity as Aegon Targearyen (V). Also Aegon V was said to have believed that a 'dragon' would be born in summer hall, but it ended up to be Rhaegar being born. Similarly, there have also been theories by certain book fans that there is foreshadowing in the books that there will be a 'dragon' born in the crypts of Winterfell, but what can be so special in the crypts? We know Jon has already been dreaming about the crypts and there are the theories about the 'dragon' being born there. I have my own ideas about this, but if you prefer you can come up with your own...

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, nowhere in the text does it state that Rhaegar believed Rhaenys to be on of the heads of the dragons.  Much like what I'm proposing, it's simply a theory, it's not established in the text.

For all we know the "first head" of the dragon, Rhaegar is referring to is himself.  After all, it takes two kings to wake the dragon, a father and a son, so both die kings.  Or the other head of a dragon could have been another child.  Nor am I convinced that Jon is or was to be one of the heads of the dragon.  Another possibility is that Rhaegar was gathering former Targaryen bloodlines that had split off from the main branch.  The Targaryens had not been able to hatch a dragon in well over a hundred years, so there may have been a distinct problem with their bloodlines.  Martin has taken pains to tell us of the history of the Targaryens and various offshoots of their line.  The Velaryons, the Plumms, the Longwaters, the Blackfyres, ect.  Or, if Rhaegar was trying to recreate Summerhall, he may have been trying to replicate the Targaryen bloodlines that existed at this time.  

As for you last thought, I think that the Prince that was Promised prophecy that Aemon and Rhaegar were so consumed with was the belief that they could transfer the consciousness of a Targaryen into a dragon.  They were looking to bring about a Valyrian sphinx, a dragon with the "head" of a man.  I think Rhaegar believed that the tower of joy would transfer Aegon's consciousness into a dragon, he would die only to be reborn into something much more powerful.

Your first point: nothing is ever established in the text by GRRM. We as readers read in between the words to find hidden meanings and clues for theories and ideas just about in every POV chapter.

Your second : True, Rhaegar never stated outright that he believes Rhaenys to be the first head of the dragon, but it had been strongly implied that he believes he has two heads of the dragon already in Dany's vision. His two heads so far, referring to Aegon and Rhaenys. And you said that Rhaegar may have believed that he may have been the prince that was promised or at least the first head of the dragon - but then this would be discounted since Maester Aemon himself believes that Rhaegar stopped believing this when Aegon was conceived, as Rhaegar had seen a comet "bleeding star" around this time. So this would also show that Rhaegar is not relevant to the prophecy anymore - he is not the prince that was promised and not one of the heads of the dragon, and also cannot be sacrificed. His importance now would only be due to being the father of one of the dragon heads/prince that was promised. Like this, GRRM specifically states that Aegon is the prince that was promised, which we know is unlikely as GRRM prefers to show and not tell. He tells us this about Aegon, but then he shows us Bowen Marsh's salty tears, the falling/bleeding star and the smoking wounds during Jon's stabbing in ADWD - and all of these things coincidently happen to also be part of the prophecy.

your last point: does "transferring Aegon's consciousness into a dragon" or being reborn "into something stronger," refer to making Aegin being reborn into a dragon? If yes, then you should also take into consideration this was also what Aerion Brightflame believed when he drank a cup of wildfire, though as it was said in the books, "the gods were kind and turned him into corpse instead [of a dragon]." Aerys also seemed to believe that if the city burned down by wild fire at the end of the rebellion, he would still be able to survive as he could be reborn amongst the ashes as a dragon - and there is no doubt he would also have ended up like Aerion instead of a dragon.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

I wonder what Aemon means when he says "...showing her the way...".  I know he's talking about guiding her, but does he "know the way"?  How can you show someone the way without knowing the way. 

I think he means the optimal way to achieve whatever it is the PtwP is supposed to do, as specified in a prophecy he and Rhaegar have read, and we have not.

[ravenous reader]

8 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

It is emphasised in the books (like in dany's house of the undying vision) that Rhaegar believed Rhaenys to be the first head and Aegon the second. It's why he says "there must be one more," because he knew Elia couldn't give him a third child - which would cause him to believe his child with Lyanna (Jon) would be the third head. So if he wanted to hatch dragons, he would sacrifice all three children in the ritual, as he would know just two wouldn't have worked. Even Dany knew to put ALL three sacrifices (Drogo, Rhaego and that red priest) into the fire when hatching her three dragons, so Rhaegar would be a fool for bringing only two of his children at the tower.

Although those particularly 'sacrifices' are the ones usually cited by readers, I don't think that's quite accurate on close inspection.  Let's examine what or who exactly was placed into the funeral pyre.  Firstly, it's not true that Rhaego was placed into the fire.  He died the night of the 'tent of shadows' -- we know this because Dany reports she still felt the baby kicking before she entered the tent -- but it was never revealed when or how he died thereafter (Was he stillborn? If not, did Jorah kill him? etc.).  Although Dany requested to hold him, his body was actually never presented to her, so we don't know the fate of the body, and it was definitely not specified that any of his remains were placed in the fire.  The other important detail to consider is whether someone can really be thought of as a sacrifice to the fire if they are already dead by other means before being burnt.  Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the fire sacrifice?  In demonstration of this principle, Melisandre burns people alive, not dead, in order to work her sorcery.  On the other hand, we also have the example of the fire priests like Thoros giving the dead like Beric the kiss of life.  Assuming, however, in Dany's case that the sacrifices need to be alive in order for the immolation to be magically effective, then we can rule out Drogo and Rhaego as sacrifices for the purposes of the fire resurrection (although I still believe their sacrifices were a necessary step in the process of dragon-birthing, which I'll explain later).  The only living beings who entered the fire were Dany, Mirri and the three dragon embryos (we know they were alive before the pyre because Dany can sense them stirring within their stone eggs long before they hatch).  Significantly, the dragons only hatch after Dany herself steps into the pyre and willingly sacrifices herself.  That is the catalytic moment -- the voluntary act of self-sacrifice -- not Mirri's murder.  

So, as you can see, the maths doesn't add up to 'three heads', whichever way you cut it.  One dead body was placed in the pyre (Drogo), together with 2 living people (Mirri and Dany) and 3 living dragon embryos, to finally give 4 living dragons (3 literal dragons plus Dany-reborn herself, the figurative dragon).  How then should we conceptualize these 'three heads'?  I agree with @Frey family reunion that the 'three heads' in question are more likely to signify the taking of three lives -- think of them as 'beheadings' -- in exchange for granting the lives of three others.  According to this model therefore, dragon hatching is a two-step process -- firstly, the three 'beheadings,' followed by bringing those heads back to life in another form.  I see the magical event of the funeral pyre -- what @LmL has termed the 'alchemical wedding' -- as only the second step in the formula, bringing the kiss of life to those who have previously been killed.  Although the fire is the spectacular final ingredient, we should also not dismiss the contribution of the assassinations which occurred before the fire was even lit.

We can see this pattern played out for example in the tale of Clarence Crabb and the talking heads.  Pay attention to how the talk of heads runs into a lengthy discussion about 'dragons', the juxtaposition of 'heads' and 'dragons' evoking the 'three heads of the dragon' and moreover, given that the personified dragons in question are coins typically depicting the disembodied head of a king, the concept of 'only death can pay for life' is introduced, with the implication that the three deaths represent the deaths of three kings or at least three people with royal blood.

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

"Are they, now? Poor little things. Had a sister once meself. Skinny girl with knobby knees, but then she grew a pair o' teats and a knight's son got between her legs. Last I saw her she was off for King's Landing t' make a living on her back."

"Where did you send them?"

Another shrug. "As t' that, I can't recall."

"Where?" Brienne slapped another silver stag down.

He flicked the coin back at her with his forefinger. "Someplace no stag ever found . . . though a dragon might."

Silver would not get the truth from him, she sensed. Gold might, or it might not. Steel would be more certain. Brienne touched her dagger, then reached into her purse instead. She found a golden dragon and put in on the barrel. "Where?"

The ragged man snatched up the coin and bit it. "Sweet. Puts me in mind o' Crackclaw Point. Up north o' here, 'tis a wild land o' hills and bogs, but it happens I was born and bred there. Dick Crabb, I'm named, though most call me Nimble Dick."

She did not offer her own name. "Where in Crackclaw Point?"

"The Whispers. You heard o' Clarence Crabb, o' course."

"No."

That seemed to surprise him. "Ser Clarence Crabb, I said. I got his blood in me. He was eight foot tall, and so strong he could uproot pine trees with one hand and chuck them half a mile. No horse could bear his weight, so he rode an aurochs."

"What does he have to do with this smugglers' cove?"

"His wife was a woods witch. Whenever Ser Clarence killed a man, he'd fetch his head back home and his wife would kiss it on the lips and bring it back t' life. Lords, they were, and wizards, and famous knights and pirates. One was king o' Duskendale. They gave old Crabb good counsel. Being they was just heads, they couldn't talk real loud, but they never shut up neither. When you're a head, talking's all you got to pass the day. So Crabb's keep got named the Whispers. Still is, though it's been a ruin for a thousand years. A lonely place, the Whispers." The man walked the coin deftly across his knuckles. "One dragon by hisself gets lonely. Ten, now . . ."

"Ten dragons are a fortune. Do you take me for a fool?"

"No, but I can take you to one." The coin danced one way, and back the other. "Take you to the Whispers, m'lady."

Brienne did not like the way his fingers played with that gold coin. Still . . . "Six dragons if we find my sister. Two if we only find the fool. Nothing if nothing is what we find."

Crabb shrugged. "Six is good. Six will serve."

Too quick. She caught his wrist before he could tuck the gold away. "Do not play me false. You'll not find me easy meat."

When she let go, Crabb rubbed his wrist. "Bloody piss," he muttered. "You hurt my hand."

"I am sorry for that. My sister is a girl of three-and-ten. I need to find her before - "

" - before some knight gets in her slit. Aye, I hear you. She's good as saved. Nimble Dick is with you now. Meet me by east gate at first light. I need t' see this man about a horse."

Ironically, Nimble Dick receives his promised dragon from Brienne, but only after he's given his life for it:  

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne IV

She knocked aside his arm and punched the steel into his bowels. "Laugh," she snarled at him. He moaned instead. "Laugh," she repeated, grabbing his throat with one hand and stabbing at his belly with the other. "Laugh!" She kept saying it, over and over, until her hand was red up to the wrist and the stink of the fool's dying was like to choke her. But Shagwell never laughed. The sobs that Brienne heard were all her own. When she realized that, she threw down her knife and shuddered.

Podrick helped her lower Nimble Dick into his hole. By the time they were done the moon was rising. Brienne rubbed the dirt from her hands and tossed two dragons down into the grave.

"Why did you do that, my lady? Ser?" asked Pod.

"It was the reward I promised him for finding me the fool."

So the maths is clear, two deaths (that of Nimble Dick and Shagwell) -- which can be interpreted as 'taking heads' -- are rewarded with two dragons.  Following this logic, for three dragons there must be three deaths.  In Dany's case, who are these three heads?

Viserys -- the brother in whose death Dany is complicit -- whose death was rewarded by his dragon namesake, Viserion.

Rhaego -- the son in whose death Dany is complicit -- whose death was rewarded by his dragon namesake, Rhaegal

Drogo -- the husband, and symbolically blood relative, since the Dothraki refer to those who are willing to die for each other as 'blood of my blood', in whose death Dany is not only complicit, but whose death Dany ultimately directly brought about with her own hands (by suffocating him with a pillow), a very important distinction, since it shows Dany's transition from proxy to direct assassination of her kin, and it's also the murder which brought her the most currency, as evidenced by Drogon's birth being described as the one which broke the world:

'The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.'

 

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and anyway, Rhaegar didn't concieve three children to just sacrifice them for a dragon hatching ritual. He believed he had to have three children (three heads of the dragon) who would work together to save the world in the long night. Sort of like a Visenya-Aegon-Rhaenys threesome, who worked together to conquer.

How do you know what was in Rhaegar's mind?  Perhaps he was so melancholic because he knew his life's mission, the purpose for which he was conceived himself, was to produce this promised one by any means necessary (the ends justify the means), like Azor Ahai who was also heavy of heart knowing what had to be done (i.e. human sacrifice of a 'loved' one).

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Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say... (ACOK -- Davos I)

Why indeed!

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, nowhere in the text does it state that Rhaegar believed Rhaenys to be on of the heads of the dragons.  Much like what I'm proposing, it's simply a theory, it's not established in the text.

For all we know the "first head" of the dragon, Rhaegar is referring to is himself.  After all, it takes two kings to wake the dragon, a father and a son, so both die kings.  

I was thinking we might also consider the 'roasting' of Rickard (the descendant of a line of Kings in the North/of Winter) as a kind of dragon forging ritual funeral pyre, which taken together with his son Brandon's strangulation might have paved the way to 'waking a dragon' -- Jon.  This might be especially pertinent, if Jon is indeed Brandon's son.  However, again, just as in the case Drogo's funeral pyre, the son died before the father, so it's not a perfect match!  

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Or the other head of a dragon could have been another child.  Nor am I convinced that Jon is or was to be one of the heads of the dragon.  Another possibility is that Rhaegar was gathering former Targaryen bloodlines that had split off from the main branch.  The Targaryens had not been able to hatch a dragon in well over a hundred years, so there may have been a distinct problem with their bloodlines.  Martin has taken pains to tell us of the history of the Targaryens and various offshoots of their line.  The Velaryons, the Plumms, the Longwaters, the Blackfyres, ect.  Or, if Rhaegar was trying to recreate Summerhall, he may have been trying to replicate the Targaryen bloodlines that existed at this time.  

As for you last thought, I think that the Prince that was Promised prophecy that Aemon and Rhaegar were so consumed with was the belief that they could transfer the consciousness of a Targaryen into a dragon.  They were looking to bring about a Valyrian sphinx, a dragon with the "head" of a man.  I think Rhaegar believed that the tower of joy would transfer Aegon's consciousness into a dragon, he would die only to be reborn into something much more powerful.

I think the 'transfer of consciousness' in the case of Dany's three dragons, Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon,  may have occurred at the time of the kinslayings of Viserys, Rhaego and Drogo respectively.  Notice how the birth order of the dragons mirrors the chronology of the murders.  Perhaps the kinslaying 'sacrifice' allows the bonding of the consciousness to the egg, as those with magical 'skinchanging' blood as it were can reach out in the moment of their deaths, so that a part of their soul remains in the egg, but trapped therein.  For the hatching, however, you still need the fire transformation ritual, 'the kiss of fire'  -- hence 'waking dragons from stone' (I've explained the two-step theory above).  There is an analogy to the weirwood sacrifices.  

2 hours ago, JNR said:

There's actually direct canonical support for the idea that the "three heads of the dragon" had nothing specifically to do with Rhaegar's children. 

It's this passage, about Aemon, from AFFC:

Here Aemon clearly implies that the three heads are advisers to the PtwP. 

Maybe he's mistaken himself.  Everyone seems to read the prophecy a different way (a bit like us...).

2 hours ago, JNR said:

"The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

Aemon can no longer be 'one of the heads' because he is dying before his death can be of any use to her!  The currency transaction involves one party profiting from the death of another party, a relative to be specific.  Symbolically -- yes, JNR, brace yourself for the symbolic onslaught... -- there was someone who profited over Aemon's dead body, his 'brother' Sam of the Night's Watch (and possibly even his namesake Aemon Steelsong)!  After Maester Aemon died aboard the Cinnamon Wind, his body was pickled in one of the rum vats; and it's my belief that Sam and Gilly in their grief-stricken tipsiness mixed up the barrels and ended up drinking the 'dragonfire wine,' of which they couldn't get enough, drinking one cup after another...  Thus filled with the 'spirit of the dragon,' Sam found the courage to break some vows and do some 'slaying'...There is a correlation in Norse Mythology called 'the Mead of Poetry.'

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

Sam donned his blacks to say the words, though the afternoon was warm and muggy, with nary a breath of wind. "He was a good man," he began . . . but as soon as he had said the words he knew that they were wrong. "No. He was a great man. A maester of the Citadel, chained and sworn, and Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch, ever faithful. When he was born they named him for a hero who had died too young, but though he lived a long long time, his own life was no less heroic. No man was wiser, or gentler, or kinder. At the Wall, a dozen lords commander came and went during his years of service, but he was always there to counsel them. He counseled kings as well. He could have been a king himself, but when they offered him the crown he told them they should give it to his younger brother. How many men would do that?" Sam felt the tears welling in his eyes, and knew he could not go on much longer. "He was the blood of the dragon, but now his fire has gone out. He was Aemon Targaryen. And now his watch is ended."

"And now his watch is ended," Gilly murmured after him, rocking the babe in her arms. Kojja Mo echoed her in the Common Tongue of Westeros, then repeated the words in the Summer Tongue for Xhondo and her father and the rest of the assembled crew. Sam hung his head and began to weep, his sobs so loud and wrenching that they made his whole body shake. Gilly came and stood beside him and let him cry upon her shoulder. There were tears in her eyes as well.

The air was moist and warm and dead calm, and the Cinnamon Wind was adrift upon a deep blue sea far beyond the sight of land. "Black Sam said good words," Xhondo said. "Now we drink his life." He shouted something in the Summer Tongue, and a cask of spiced rum was rolled up onto the afterdeck and breached, so those on watch might down a cup in the memory of the old blind dragon. The crew had known him only a short while, but Summer Islanders revered the elderly and celebrated their dead.

Sam had never drunk rum before. The liquor was strange and heady; sweet at first, but with a fiery aftertaste that burned his tongue. He was tired, so tired. Every muscle he had was aching, and there were other aches in places where Sam hadn't known he had muscles. His knees were stiff, his hands covered with fresh new blisters and raw, sticky patches of skin where the old blisters had burst. Yet between them, rum and sadness seemed to wash his hurts away. "If only we could have gotten him to Oldtown, the archmaesters might have saved him," he told Gilly, as they sipped their rum on the Cinnamon Wind's high forecastle. "The healers of the Citadel are the best in the Seven Kingdoms. For a while I thought . . . I hoped . . ."

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"I like you too, Sam," whispered Gilly. "And I like this drink. It tastes like fire."

Yes, Sam thought, a drink for dragons. Their cups were empty, so he went over to the cask and filled them once again. The sun was low in the west, he saw, swollen to thrice its proper size. Its ruddy light made Gilly's face seem flushed and red. They drank a cup to Kojja Mo, and one to Dalla's boy, and one to Gilly's babe back on the Wall. And after that nothing would do but to drink two cups for Aemon of House Targaryen. "May the Father judge him justly," Sam said, sniffing. The sun was almost gone by the time they were done with Maester Aemon. Only a long thin line of red still glowed upon the western horizon, like a slash across the sky. Gilly said that the drink was making the ship spin round, so Sam helped her down the ladder to the women's quarters in the bow of the ship.

There was a lantern hanging just inside the cabin, and he managed to bang his head on it going in. "Ow," he said, and Gilly said, "Are you hurt? Let me see." She leaned close . . .

. . . and kissed his mouth.

 

Sam found himself kissing her back. I said the words, he thought, but her hands were tugging at his blacks, pulling at the laces of his breeches. He broke off the kiss long enough to say, "We can't," but Gilly said, "We can," and covered his mouth with her own again. The Cinnamon Wind was spinning all around them and he could taste the rum on Gilly's tongue and the next thing her breasts were bare and he was touching them. I said the words, Sam thought again, but one of her nipples found its way between his lips. It was pink and hard and when he sucked on it her milk filled his mouth, mingling with the taste of rum, and he had never tasted anything so fine and sweet and good. If I do this I am no better than Dareon, Sam thought, but it felt too good to stop. And suddenly his cock was out, jutting upward from his breeches like a fat pink mast. It looked so silly standing there that he might have laughed, but Gilly pushed him back onto her pallet, hiked her skirts up around her thighs, and lowered herself onto him with a little whimpery sound. That was even better than her nipples. She's so wet, he thought, gasping. I never knew a woman could get so wet down there. "I am your wife now," she whispered, sliding up and down on him. And Sam groaned and thought, No, no, you can't be, I said the words, I said the words, but the only word he said was, "Yes."

Afterward she went to sleep with her arms around him and her face across his chest. Sam needed sleep as well, but he was drunk on rum and mother's milk and Gilly. He knew he ought to crawl back to his own hammock in the men's cabin, but she felt so good curled up against him that somehow he could not move.

Others came in, men and women both, and he listened to them kissing and laughing and mating with one another. Summer Islanders. That's how they mourn. They answer death with life. Sam had read that somewhere, a long time ago. He wondered if Gilly knew, if Kojja Mo had told her what to do.

He breathed the fragrance of her hair and stared at the lantern swinging overhead. Even the Crone herself could not lead me safely out of this. The best thing he could do would be to slip away and jump into the sea. If I'm drowned, no one need ever know that I shamed myself and broke my vows, and Gilly can find herself a better man, one who is not some big fat coward.

He awoke the next morning in his own hammock in the men's cabin, with Xhondo bellowing about the wind. "Wind is up," the mate kept shouting. "Wake and work, Black Sam. Wind is up."

Aemon died.  Spirit preserved in a wooden barrel (like a weirwood), of which Sam and Gilly drink.  Inspired by the spirit of the dragon, they have sex -- thus death pays for life.  The death and mating ritual also brings the wind back.  In essence, Aemon's death gives the boat wings -- like a dragon hatching and taking flight!  In other words, the death of one dragon is required to power the wings of another.   Alas, I've had to highlight the lamentable (but symbolically important) phrase 'fat pink mast' because it seems the dragonjuice 'hoisted the sails' on that mast...

[WeKnowNothing]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Rhaego -- the son in whose death Dany is complicit -- whose death was rewarded by his dragon namesake, Rhaegal.

How do you know what was in Rhaegar's mind?  Perhaps he was so melancholic because he knew his life's mission, the purpose for which he was conceived himself, was to produce this promised one by any means necessary (the ends justify the means), like Azor Ahai who was also heavy of heart knowing what had to be done (i.e. human sacrifice of a 'loved' one).

Rhaegal the dragon wasn't named after Rhaego, Rhaegal was named after Dany's eldest brother Rhaegar. Dany even discusses this in the books; after the dragons were born, she mentions that Rhaegal was a green colour. Then she also tells Jorah that she is naming this green dragon after her brother Rhaegar who died in the green banks of the trident. Infant both Rhaego and Rhaegal had been named after Rhaegar.

As for what was in Rhaegars mind, it is thought at this point in the series that Rhaegar was melachonic about the circumstances in which the deaths of his relatives at Summerhall had led to his birth. And Rhaegars family (which only consisted of Jaehearys II, Aerys, Rhaella and Maester Aemon by this time) and Rhaegar himself, all thought that Rhaegar was the prince that was promised for about the first 20 years of his life. IT wasn't until Aegon was conceived did Rhaegars view change, and he began to believe it must one his children instead of himself.

And since you mentioned Azor Ahai, i had read another theory on this forum (not recently) and Its not really relevant to this topic, but it's interesting if you are into the whole Azor Ahai theory. I'm not quoting word for word from the books, but Azor Ahai was said to try to forge light bringer 3 times. The first two times the sword had shattered. But on the third try, when he had stuck it into the heart of Nissa Nissa (who was his greatest love), it had worked into forming lightbringer. Similarly, Rhaegar had wanted to conceive the three heads of the dragon/prince that was promised. The first two times he had tried, it was with his wife Elia, who he had married out of duty. The third time, it had been with Lyanna, who he was said to have loved. And if  Lyanna had died due to the birth of Jon - it mirrors Jon with Lightbringer as they had both been the successful results of Azor/Rhaegar's third attempt at trying and also, both of the women who they had loved had died because of these successful  results.

[PrettyPig]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

"Are they, now? Poor little things. Had a sister once meself. Skinny girl with knobby knees, but then she grew a pair o' teats and a knight's son got between her legs. Last I saw her she was off for King's Landing t' make a living on her back."

"Where did you send them?"

Another shrug. "As t' that, I can't recall."

"Where?" Brienne slapped another silver stag down.

He flicked the coin back at her with his forefinger. "Someplace no stag ever found . . . though a dragon might."

I could kiss you right now for finding this.   Consider me cyber- liplocking you- this is amazing.

[JNR]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Aemon can no longer be 'one of the heads' because he is dying before his death can be of any use to her!

The ! apparently symbolizes something for you... but you're just repeating what Aemon himself said.

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 Everyone seems to read the prophecy a different way (a bit like us)

I don't see any particular sign everyone in canon reads it differently.  Rhaegar's phrasing was a lot more ambiguous than Aemon's was.

As for us?  None of us have read it at all... though some of us seem to have persuaded ourselves we have.  

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Many Targearyens believed that something bad was coming, not just for their house but for the realm in whole. Aenys I, Jaehearys II, Aegon V, Maester Aemon, and also Rhaegar were said to be convinced of this and therefore they all invested their lives in trying interprete the prophecy. They knew that something bad was coming, not for just the Targearyen's but for the realm in whole

 

You'll have to remind me of the passages that refer to the Targaryens believing something bad was coming, because I don't remember anything of the sort.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I was thinking we might also consider the 'roasting' of Rickard (the descendant of a line of Kings in the North/of Winter) as a kind of dragon forging ritual funeral pyre, which taken together with his son Brandon's strangulation might have paved the way to 'waking a dragon' -- Jon.  This might be especially pertinent, if Jon is indeed Brandon's son.  However, again, just as in the case Drogo's funeral pyre, the son died before the father, so it's not a perfect match!  

Quote

 

I think the 'transfer of consciousness' in the case of Dany's three dragons, Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon,  may have occurred at the time of the kinslayings of Viserys, Rhaego and Drogo respectively.  Notice how the birth order of the dragons mirrors the chronology of the murders.  Perhaps the kinslaying 'sacrifice' allows the bonding of the consciousness to the egg, as those with magical 'skinchanging' blood as it were can reach out in the moment of their deaths, so that a part of their soul remains in the egg, but trapped therein.  For the hatching, however, you still need the fire transformation ritual, 'the kiss of fire'  -- hence 'waking dragons from stone' (I've explained the two-step theory above).  There is an analogy to the weirwood sacrifices.  

If Brandon and Lyanna are Jon's parents then Jon couldn't be a dragon.

The breaking/hatching of the eggs is also symbolic of the three swords the Children forged that they believe broke the world. Why wouldn't Mirri's life be one of the "heads" taken? I would be more inclined to throw out Viscerys and insert Mirri, because it really wasn't Dany's hand that killed Viscerys. 

[ravenous reader]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Brandon and Lyanna are Jon's parents then Jon couldn't be a dragon.

You are probably right.  It just struck me there might be a similar process at work, the father and the son dying.

Quote

The breaking/hatching of the eggs is also symbolic of the three swords the Children forged that they believe broke the world. Why wouldn't Mirri's life be one of the "heads" taken? I would be more inclined to throw out Viscerys and insert Mirri, because it really wasn't Dany's hand that killed Viscerys. 

Are you sure Dany bears absolutely no responsibility for either Viserys's or Rhaego's deaths?  One of GRRM's major themes is that the ones who kill at a distance via proxy may be similarly culpable (the one who 'gives the order', as well as the one who 'swings the sword') -- e.g. Littlefinger's machinations have resulted in multiple deaths, besides the one we saw him commit with his own hands (i.e. Lysa's).

Mirri could be one of the heads, except her blood is not royal vs that of the others.

5 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Rhaegal the dragon wasn't named after Rhaego, Rhaegal was named after Dany's eldest brother Rhaegar. Dany even discusses this in the books; after the dragons were born, she mentions that Rhaegal was a green colour. Then she also tells Jorah that she is naming this green dragon after her brother Rhaegar who died in the green banks of the trident. Infant both Rhaego and Rhaegal had been named after Rhaegar.

You are feeding me the party line.  However, I am providing an alternative as a thought experiment.  Why is it relevant who Dany named him after?  That doesn't rule out the possibility that his birth was paid for by someone else's death.  In any case, Dany is pretty clueless most of the time -- e.g. as to the location of that red door -- so I don't think we need take all her interpretations at face value.

Quote

As for what was in Rhaegars mind, it is thought at this point in the series that Rhaegar was melachonic about the circumstances in which the deaths of his relatives at Summerhall had led to his birth.

Their failed dragon-hatching exploits, which somehow fuelled a lifetime obsession with hatching a dragon, literal and/or figurative.

Quote

And Rhaegars family (which only consisted of Jaehearys II, Aerys, Rhaella and Maester Aemon by this time) and Rhaegar himself, all thought that Rhaegar was the prince that was promised for about the first 20 years of his life. IT wasn't until Aegon was conceived did Rhaegars view change, and he began to believe it must one his children instead of himself.

Thanks for clarifying.

Quote

And since you mentioned Azor Ahai, i had read another theory on this forum (not recently) and Its not really relevant to this topic, but it's interesting if you are into the whole Azor Ahai theory. I'm not quoting word for word from the books, but Azor Ahai was said to try to forge light bringer 3 times. The first two times the sword had shattered.

How do you understand the 'sword shattering'?  What does that mean in practical terms?

Quote

But on the third try, when he had stuck it into the heart of Nissa Nissa (who was his greatest love), it had worked into forming lightbringer.

Yeah, he murdered his wife.  I don't believe it was a voluntary sacrifice, the same way Viserys, Rhaego and Drogo were involuntary sacrifices which allowed Dany to 'forge' her dragons.

Quote

Similarly, Rhaegar had wanted to conceive the three heads of the dragon/prince that was promised. The first two times he had tried, it was with his wife Elia, who he had married out of duty. The third time, it had been with Lyanna, who he was said to have loved. And if  Lyanna had died due to the birth of Jon - it mirrors Jon with Lightbringer as they had both been the successful results of Azor/Rhaegar's third attempt at trying and also, both of the women who they had loved had died because of these successful  results.

I'm familiar with that version of events, which is also a valid hypothesis; although there are others.

5 hours ago, JNR said:

The ! apparently symbolizes something for you...

I wonder what an exclamation point could mean?!  Maybe we should deconstruct it, in order to find out something further we can add to our growing list of things that 'We just don't know -- yet...'  

Perhaps, if we dig deep and long enough, we'll find it's symbolic of an orgasm!!!!!!

Quote

 but you're just repeating what Aemon himself said.

No, I'm not.  If you had paid attention, you would have noticed I didn't say that 'his life' could not be of use to Dany; I said that 'his death' could not be of use to her.  If the heads are sacrifices, then Aemon's death not life (or more accurately his 'dying') is the currency she needs (she has already been complicit in three kinslayings, which paid for the birth of the dragons).

Quote

I don't see any particular sign everyone in canon reads it differently.  Rhaegar's phrasing was a lot more ambiguous than Aemon's was.

As for us?  None of us have read it at all... though some of us seem to have persuaded ourselves we have.  

Good point.  We just don't know...

5 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I could kiss you right now for finding this.   Consider me cyber- liplocking you- this is amazing.

Ha ha, at least someone over here appreciates my quirky contributions!  I'm intrigued as to the conclusions you have drawn from that excerpt...Hope you will share soon  

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Ha ha, at least someone over here appreciates my quirky contributions!  I'm intrigued as to the conclusions you have drawn from that excerpt...Hope you will share soon

I most certainly do!   I plan to move to this mystery topic after finishing the Fisherman's Daughter tome (that is not an exaggeration at this point - it's already LmL level and I keep adding to it).  

Speaking of FD, I have put a couple of tidbits in it that I think you will enjoy very much!   Now if I can just...finish...it...

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

 

And since you mentioned Azor Ahai, i had read another theory on this forum (not recently) and Its not really relevant to this topic, but it's interesting if you are into the whole Azor Ahai theory. I'm not quoting word for word from the books, but Azor Ahai was said to try to forge light bringer 3 times. The first two times the sword had shattered. But on the third try, when he had stuck it into the heart of Nissa Nissa (who was his greatest love), it had worked into forming lightbringer. Similarly, Rhaegar had wanted to conceive the three heads of the dragon/prince that was promised. The first two times he had tried, it was with his wife Elia, who he had married out of duty. The third time, it had been with Lyanna, who he was said to have loved. And if  Lyanna had died due to the birth of Jon - it mirrors Jon with Lightbringer as they had both been the successful results of Azor/Rhaegar's third attempt at trying and also, both of the women who they had loved had died because of these successful  results.

Yea, this is the orthodox interpretation of the events.  And when I first tasted from that cup it tasted pretty good.  I swished it around in my mouth a good bit, while I started sidewise looking at some of the theories in this thread.  And all of a sudden I found it too sweet and cloying.  So I spit it out and tried some darker, bitter, stranger, and dare I say bloodier brew.  

ETA: damn that came out a lot dorkier than I intended.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

You are probably right.  It just struck me there might be a similar process at work, the father and the son dying.

Are you sure Dany bears absolutely no responsibility for either Viserys's or Rhaego's deaths?  One of GRRM's major themes is that the ones who kill at a distance via proxy may be similarly culpable (the one who 'gives the order', as well as the one who 'swings the sword') -- e.g. Littlefinger's machinations have resulted in multiple deaths, besides the one we saw him commit with his own hands (i.e. Lysa's).

Mirri could be one of the heads, except her blood is not royal vs that of the others.

You are feeding me the party line.  However, I am providing an alternative as a thought experiment.  Why is it relevant who Dany named him after?  That doesn't rule out the possibility that his birth was paid for by someone else's death.  In any case, Dany is pretty clueless most of the time -- e.g. as to the location of that red door -- so I don't think we need take all her interpretations at face value.

Their failed dragon-hatching exploits, which somehow fuelled a lifetime obsession with hatching a dragon, literal and/or figurative.

Thanks for clarifying.

How do you understand the 'sword shattering'?  What does that mean in practical terms?

Yeah, he murdered his wife.  I don't believe it was a voluntary sacrifice, the same way Viserys, Rhaego and Drogo were involuntary sacrifices which allowed Dany to 'forge' her dragons.

I'm familiar with that version of events, which is also a valid hypothesis; although there are others.

I wonder what an exclamation point could mean?!  Maybe we should deconstruct it, in order to find out something further we can add to our growing list of things that 'We just don't know -- yet...'  

Perhaps, if we dig deep and long enough, we'll find it's symbolic of an orgasm!!!!!!

No, I'm not.  If you had paid attention, you would have noticed I didn't say that 'his life' could not be of use to Dany; I said that 'his death' could not be of use to her.  If the heads are sacrifices, then Aemon's death not life (or more accurately his 'dying') is the currency she needs (she has already been complicit in three kinslayings, which paid for the birth of the dragons).

Good point.  We just don't know...

Ha ha, at least someone over here appreciates my quirky contributions!  I'm intrigued as to the conclusions you have drawn from that excerpt...Hope you will share soon  

I do agree that Jon was made via a special "secret recipe", but it wasn't necessary to lose his father and grandfather to "have more of the north in him". He is a product of the old gods should B+L=J prove true.

I'm going to blame the victim here and assert that Viserys is responsible for his own death. Dany sensed what would happen and could have stopped it, but chose to allow it. Viserys lost the Dothraki's respect, then pushed his demands too far, and then exacerbated the situation by wearing a sword in a place where weapons were forbidden. 

I do like the idea that the white dragon, Viserion, is Viserys reborn, and the swirls of gold symbolic of the gold dumped on his head, but the white color could also reflect lambs or sheep since that's how the Dothraki viewed Mirr's people. She may not have been of royal blood, but she was a priestess on par with Melisandre. It would be nice if the swirls were more like Vayrian Steel which represent magic, but maybe that's too literal.

[ravenous reader]

12 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

 I plan to move to this mystery topic after finishing the Fisherman's Daughter tome (that is not an exaggeration at this point - it's already LmL level and I keep adding to it).  

LOL.  Do you recall the classic 'tome' I wrote as a reply to poor Hiemal in his thread on the 'Nennymoans'..?!  At the time, LmL himself referred to my longwindedness and impropriety interjecting myself in that fashion in the thread as 'pulling an LmL' -- which I took as a compliment!  

Quote

Speaking of FD, I have put a couple of tidbits in it that I think you will enjoy very much!   Now if I can just...finish...it...

Looking forward.  I take it, the 'tidbits' involve my (least-)favorite psychopath..?  

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm going to blame the victim here and assert that Viserys is responsible for his own death. Dany sensed what would happen and could have stopped it, but chose to allow it. Viserys lost the Dothraki's respect, then pushed his demands too far, and then exacerbated the situation by wearing a sword in a place where weapons were forbidden. 

Indeed, Dany didn't protest too much; certainly, she fought for Viserys's life far less vigorously than for Drogo's, where she really pulled out all the stops, beggaring the tribe in the process and sacrificing her own son and ultimately her husband as well into the bargain she made with the 'devil'.  Also, she was key in delivering the final verdict triggering the death blow by being the one to translate what Viserys had said from the common tongue into Dothraki -- what she said at that point was entirely up to her to construct accordingly.  Finally, as we've discussed in @40 Thousand Skeletons's delightfully original and brilliant thread, the last taste left on her tongue after partaking of the warlock wine or shade of the evening was the 'taste of molten gold,' hinting that she was haunted by the guilt of her brother's death (including the potential guilt over her secret exaltation that she had finally rid herself of her tormentor, and indeed the elder sibling standing in her way of the Targaryen succession); and/or more mysteriously, that she had somehow telepathically experienced her own brother's death, akin to the analogous case of Bran Stark tasting the blood of the sacrificed captive in his vision.  I've posited that as Bran was able to experience the death of the captive (likely his ancestor) via the weirwood conduit, perhaps Dany and Viserys were linked in that moment via the dragon egg of the future Viserion serving as magical conduit!  The fact that the shade of Viserys continues whispering to her, plaguing her with increasing intensity and frequency over time, as evidenced by the content of her visions on the Dothraki sea, in which his death is replayed in gruesomely vivid fashion and he accosts her personally with accusations, is suspicious for someone with a clean conscience.

Even if Dany is not directly responsible for these deaths, and Drogo and Mirri merely function as her extended catspaws in the scenarios of Viserys's and Drogo's deaths respectively, nevertheless GRRM shows how omissions are just as important -- and often as deadly -- as commissions.  For example, in the Prologue, Will (the treacherous far-eyes) fails to call out a warning and passively watches his brother's death from the safe vantage point hidden among the needles of the sentinel, without joining the fight (besides also being more pro-active in his brother's demise on an allegorical level, according to my 'killing word' hypothesis, in which I've concluded that the 'whispered prayer' he uttered while up the tree to 'the nameless gods of the wood' summoned the Others, whether inadvertently or by design).

P.S.  I think the 'three treasons for blood' of Dany's prophecy are committed by Daenerys herself against her brother Viserys, her son Rhaego, and her husband Drogo.  Not only do they constitute treasons for blood on account of her kinship to all three (although Drogo is not a blood relative per se, he is still 'blood of her blood' and her husband), but she literally was also complicit in, or condoned, their deaths for their blood (or in order to obtain the precious commodity of their royal blood), which was necessary to spawn the dragons in the blood magic ritual.

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I do like the idea that the white dragon, Viserion, is Viserys reborn, and the swirls of gold symbolic of the gold dumped on his head, but the white color could also reflect lambs or sheep since that's how the Dothraki viewed Mirr's people. She may not have been of royal blood, but she was a priestess on par with Melisandre. It would be nice if the swirls were more like Vayrian Steel which represent magic, but maybe that's too literal.

Besides the suggestive evidence of the dragon birth order (by which the order in which the dragons were birthed corresponds to the order of the sacrifices required as a tradeoff...i.e. Viserion is the eldest dragon corresponding with Viserys's death occurring first, and so on); the thing that gives it away for me is the fact that of all the dragons Viserion is the only one with gold dragonfire flame issuing from his mouth (i.e. he has molten gold literally in his mouth), and that is something GRRM reiterates again and again regarding Viserys's death by molten gold:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

She dreamt of her dead brother.

Viserys looked just as he had the last time she'd seen him. His mouth was twisted in anguish, his hair was burnt, and his face was black and smoking where the molten gold had run down across his brow and cheeks and into his eyes.

"You are dead," Dany said.

Murdered. Though his lips never moved, somehow she could hear his voice, whispering in her ear. You never mourned me, sister. It is hard to die unmourned.

"I loved you once."

Once, he said, so bitterly it made her shudder. You were supposed to be my wife, to bear me children with silver hair and purple eyes, to keep the blood of the dragon pure. I took care of you. I taught you who you were. I fed you. I sold our mother's crown to keep you fed.

"You hurt me. You frightened me."

Only when you woke the dragon. I loved you.

 “You sold me. You betrayed me.”

  No. You were the betrayer. You turned against me, against your own blood. They cheated me. Your horsey husband and his stinking savages. They were cheats and liars. They promised me a golden crown and gave me this. He touched the molten gold that was creeping down his face, and smoke rose from his finger.

  “You could have had your crown,” Dany told him. “My sun-and-stars would have won it for you if only you had waited.”

  I waited long enough. I waited my whole life. I was their king, their rightful king

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

"You never understood. Dothraki do not buy and sell. They give gifts and receive them. If you had waited …"

I did wait. For my crown, for my throne, for you. All those years, and all I ever got was a pot of molten gold. Why did they give the dragon's eggs to you? They should have been mine. If I'd had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words. Viserys began to laugh, until his jaw fell away from his face, smoking, and blood and molten gold ran from his mouth.

 

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, this is the orthodox interpretation of the events.  And when I first tasted from that cup it tasted pretty good.  I swished it around in my mouth a good bit, while I started sidewise looking at some of the theories in this thread.  And all of a sudden I found it too sweet and cloying.  So I spit it out and tried some darker, bitter, stranger, and dare I say bloodier brew.  

ETA: damn that came out a lot dorkier than I intended.

Well -- considering the dubious ingredients of weirwood bole, warlock wine, sister's stew, bowl of brown, Craster's blood sausages, and the like, I'd say you're on the right track gravitating to the 'darker, bitter, stranger and bloodier brew'!  In a world where we're condemned to 'know nothing,' if there's anything I've come to understand and take for granted, it's GRRM's perverse mind.  Have you read our disturbing cannibalistic meditations in this respect with reference to John Barleycorn and Jethro Tull (e.g. Cup of Crimson Wonder) over on the poetry thread?

Or if you don't believe me -- and wonder what the hell poetry and songs have to do with anything -- just take it from Edd (classic quote caught courtesy PK Jane):

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon V

"As you wish." Mormont lifted the flap of the tent and Qhorin Halfhand stooped and stepped through.

Edd stood over the kettle swishing the eggs about with a spoon. "I envy those eggs," he said. "I could do with a bit of boiling about now. If the kettle were larger, I might jump in. Though I would sooner it were wine than water. There are worse ways to die than warm and drunk. I knew a brother drowned himself in wine once. It was a poor vintage, though, and his corpse did not improve it."

"You drank the wine?"

"It's an awful thing to find a brother dead. You'd have need of a drink as well, Lord Snow." Edd stirred the kettle and added a pinch more nutmeg.

 

[Prof. Cecily]

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Spoiler

Do we know the purpose of the 'Three Heads of the Dragon or the Prince that was Promised? The prophecies are discussed often enough, but not their purpose. Moreover, did the Targaryens believe another Long Night was coming?

Maester Aemon explained that "prince" was a mistranslation of "dragon", so was it really a human that they were hoping for or a dragon? The Targaryens were always trying to figure out how to hatch dragons. They believed, like Aegon V, that having dragons would bring about peace in the realm again. Wouldn't it make more sense that the Three Heads of the Dragon refers to three sacrifices needed to hatch a dragon, there by receiving the Dragon that was Promised?

Could you shout a source for maester Aemon explaining that "prince" was a mistranslation of "dragon", please?

 

[WeKnowNothing]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

You'll have to remind me of the passages that refer to the Targaryens believing something bad was coming, because I don't remember anything of the sort.

It's not written in the books specifically, but everyone of these Targearyens who seemed to belive on the prophecy were aware of some sort of 'doom' coming - otherwise why were they do eager to produce the prince that was promised. They also took steps to try and achieve this, like when Rhaegar  read a prophecy on TPTWP and made himself to become a warrior ("it seems I must be a warrior"). Jaehearys II also forced his two kids Aerys and Rhaella marry because of the prince that was promised was foretold to come from their line. He was so insistent on this as he had believe that the prince that was promised was to save he world from whatever 'doom' was coming. So obviously they knew something was to happen, and the prince that was promised is meant to be a hero to save everyone.