Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Indeed, Dany didn't protest too much; certainly, she fought for Viserys's life far less vigorously than for Drogo's, where she really pulled out all the stops, beggaring the tribe in the process and sacrificing her own son and ultimately her husband as well into the bargain she made with the 'devil'.  Also, she was key in delivering the final verdict triggering the death blow by being the one to translate what Viserys had said from the common tongue into Dothraki -- what she said at that point was entirely up to her to construct accordingly.  Finally, as we've discussed in @40 Thousand Skeletons's delightfully original and brilliant thread, the last taste left on her tongue after partaking of the warlock wine or shade of the evening was the 'taste of molten gold,' hinting that she was haunted by the guilt of her brother's death (including the potential guilt over her secret exaltation that she had finally rid herself of her tormentor, and indeed the elder sibling standing in her way of the Targaryen succession); and/or more mysteriously, that she had somehow telepathically experienced her own brother's death, akin to the analogous case of Bran Stark tasting the blood of the sacrificed captive in his vision.  I've posited that as Bran was able to experience the death of the captive (likely his ancestor) via the weirwood conduit, perhaps Dany and Viserys were linked in that moment via the dragon egg of the future Viserion serving as magical conduit!  The fact that the shade of Viserys continues whispering to her, plaguing her with increasing intensity and frequency over time, as evidenced by the content of her visions on the Dothraki sea, in which his death is replayed in gruesomely vivid fashion and he accosts her personally with accusations, is suspicious for someone with a clean conscience.

On that note, I just want to quickly comment on something I don't think I brought up in that other thread. Some people think that the 3 dragons basically contain the souls of Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo, and this would actually make perfect sense. However, I have to wonder if Viserys' soul was actually trapped inside his head because his skull was covered with molten gold. There is, after all, a specific group of people who dip their skulls in gold upon their deaths: the Golden Company, founded by Bittersteel, who was the first guy to command his skull be dipped in gold and was also the archrival of Bloodraven. So while BR effectively gave his soul to the weirnet, Bittersteel may have done the exact opposite. The basic reasoning for this is the obvious similarity to the Stark crypts. The northern kings used to be buried in barrows, which would probably allow for the absorption of their souls into the weirnet. But the Starks for some reason place swords over their stone tombs to keep their souls inside.

Also, wtf even happened to Viserys' body? Just some thoughts  

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Could you shout a source for maester Aemon explaining that "prince" was a mistranslation of "dragon", please?

 

 

   On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo’s talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. “No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.” Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. “I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger.”

 

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

It's not written in the books specifically, but everyone of these Targearyens who seemed to belive on the prophecy were aware of some sort of 'doom' coming - otherwise why were they do eager to produce the prince that was promised. They also took steps to try and achieve this, like when Rhaegar  read a prophecy on TPTWP and made himself to become a warrior ("it seems I must be a warrior"). Jaehearys II also forced his two kids Aerys and Rhaella marry because of the prince that was promised was foretold to come from their line. He was so insistent on this as he had believe that the prince that was promised was to save he world from whatever 'doom' was coming. So obviously they knew something was to happen, and the prince that was promised is meant to be a hero to save everyone.

 

I think you are coming to a conclusion, because it isn't explicitly said why they were eager to produce the prince that was promised.

 

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

On that note, I just want to quickly comment on something I don't think I brought up in that other thread. Some people think that the 3 dragons basically contain the souls of Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo, and this would actually make perfect sense. However, I have to wonder if Viserys' soul was actually trapped inside his head because his skull was covered with molten gold. There is, after all, a specific group of people who dip their skulls in gold upon their deaths: the Golden Company, founded by Bittersteel, who was the first guy to command his skull be dipped in gold and was also the archrival of Bloodraven. So while BR effectively gave his soul to the weirnet, Bittersteel may have done the exact opposite. The basic reasoning for this is the obvious similarity to the Stark crypts. The northern kings used to be buried in barrows, which would probably allow for the absorption of their souls into the weirnet. But the Starks for some reason place swords over their stone tombs to keep their souls inside.

Also, wtf even happened to Viserys' body? Just some thoughts  

 

You bring up a good point. In the north the spirit remains in the bones unless the bones are cracked open. That's why the hand that Ghost found continued to move until he bit through to the marrow and then it remembered it was dead. The molten gold could seal the spirit inside the skull like Bittersteal. Great catch, although I think Ravenous Reader has convinced me Viserion is Viserys. 

[Ninerings]

Ravenous Reader brings up three lives for three lives..... Clues in the Jaqen H'ghar arc?

[Melifeather]

Meditating on the idea that "three heads of the dragon" means three deaths to raise a dragon (or prince that was promised), is Dany actually responsible for 9 deaths? Would she need 3 deaths for each dragon? Although don't we read the color descriptions of the eggs as early as when Illyrio first gave them to her? 

   Magister Illyrio murmured a command, and four burly slaves hurried forward, bearing between them a great cedar chest bound in bronze. When she opened it, she found piles of the finest velvets and damasks the Free Cities could produce … and resting on top, nestled in the soft cloth, three huge eggs. Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. “What are they?” she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

The descriptions in hind site are prophetic.

Getting back to the idea that it requires three deaths to raise a dragon...think of how large Balerion the Black Dread was reported to be. Certainly he was old, but what if they only grow with each successive sacrificial death?

 

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Meditating on the idea that "three heads of the dragon" means three deaths to raise a dragon (or prince that was promised), is Dany actually responsible for 9 deaths? Would she need 3 deaths for each dragon? Although don't we read the color descriptions of the eggs as early as when Illyrio first gave them to her? 

   Magister Illyrio murmured a command, and four burly slaves hurried forward, bearing between them a great cedar chest bound in bronze. When she opened it, she found piles of the finest velvets and damasks the Free Cities could produce … and resting on top, nestled in the soft cloth, three huge eggs. Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. “What are they?” she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

The descriptions in hind site are prophetic.

Getting back to the idea that it requires three deaths to raise a dragon...think of how large Balerion the Black Dread was reported to be. Certainly he was old, but what if they only grow with each successive sacrificial death?

 

I like your last thought quite a lot.  I've thought along similar lines regarding the Weirwoods.  Was the Weirwood at House Blackwood so huge, because of a large number of sacrificial deaths?  And I further wonder if House Bracken was the source of the sacrifices back in the day.  Which may have been the reason that they poisoned the Weirwood.

[Frey family reunion]

57 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

   On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo’s talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. “No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.” Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. “I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger.”

 

 

I think you are coming to a conclusion, because it isn't explicitly said why they were eager to produce the prince that was promised.

 

 

You bring up a good point. In the north the spirit remains in the bones unless the bones are cracked open. That's why the hand that Ghost found continued to move until he bit through to the marrow and then it remembered it was dead. The molten gold could seal the spirit inside the skull like Bittersteal. Great catch, although I think Ravenous Reader has convinced me Viserion is Viserys. 

Not sure about what happened to Viserys after he got doused, but I do wonder if his "soul" went into one of the eggs at the time of his death.  Rhaego's soul may have done likewise, or the blood magic ritual sent his soul into Drago, and both souls were released into the eggs during the funeral pyre.  

I think GRRM based the funeral pyre ritual on old Hindu cremation rituals.  It's my understanding that there is a Hindu belief that the soul is not released from the body until the body is consumed in the fire.

[ravenous reader]

12 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

On that note, I just want to quickly comment on something I don't think I brought up in that other thread. Some people think that the 3 dragons basically contain the souls of Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo, and this would actually make perfect sense. However, I have to wonder if Viserys' soul was actually trapped inside his head because his skull was covered with molten gold. There is, after all, a specific group of people who dip their skulls in gold upon their deaths: the Golden Company, founded by Bittersteel, who was the first guy to command his skull be dipped in gold and was also the archrival of Bloodraven. So while BR effectively gave his soul to the weirnet, Bittersteel may have done the exact opposite. The basic reasoning for this is the obvious similarity to the Stark crypts. The northern kings used to be buried in barrows, which would probably allow for the absorption of their souls into the weirnet. But the Starks for some reason place swords over their stone tombs to keep their souls inside.

That's definitely food for thought (oopsy, wrong metaphor...)!  If Viserys's soul was trapped inside his head, then how according to your theory did Daenerys make telepathic contact with him?  The golden 'ward' (presuming there is such a thing -- I had thought wards had to contain iron?) should work both ways.  If Viserys's soul cannot bond with an egg, he shouldn't be able to bond with Dany in that moment; otherwise stated, if his consciousness can't 'exit' the gold casing, she should also be barred from 'entering' the gold shell and therefore his consciousness.

Remember PK Jane gave us that awesome quote about the 'golden blood of Valyria' or 'gold blood of the dragon'?  So, symbolically the gold filling Viserys's mouth is the spilled blood of the dragon, analogous to how the blood wells up in the mouth when someone is ritually sacrificed by having his throat cut, as happened in the case of the captive at the heart tree, whom I'm certain bonded with the heart tree in that moment, or Bran would not have access to his consciousness.  There are too many similarities between the Bran and Dany scenes -- which I explained in detail on your thread (I provided the link above in my previous post to those who are interested in reading more) --  for me to dismiss the Viserys scene as having no relation to the dragon forging.  Viserys was a sacrifice to the egg, the same way the captive was sacrificed to the weirwood.  The weirwood traps souls the way a dragon egg captures souls.  When the souls are released (e.g. by applying the kiss of fire), white shadows (e.g. Others) or black shadows (e.g. dragons) are liberated.

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Also, wtf even happened to Viserys' body? Just some thoughts  

That's the same question I asked of Rhaego's body?  Many readers mistakenly assume he was placed on the pyre, but this is never stated, nor as far as we know did Dany ever get to see the body as she requested.

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You bring up a good point. In the north the spirit remains in the bones unless the bones are cracked open. That's why the hand that Ghost found continued to move until he bit through to the marrow and then it remembered it was dead. The molten gold could seal the spirit inside the skull like Bittersteal. Great catch, although I think Ravenous Reader has convinced me Viserion is Viserys. 

Skull bones contain marrow.  It's possible the extreme heat of the molten gold made a few cracks!

10 hours ago, Ninerings said:

Ravenous Reader brings up three lives for three lives..... Clues in the Jaqen H'ghar arc?

Thanks for bringing this up -- that is a key analogy I had meant to highlight, although I ran out of steam!  After freeing the prisoners from the burning wagon (a metaphor for souls trapped in a tree or dragon egg being freed via the funeral pyre catalyzation), Arya is instructed that she is required to pay back the lives she has 'stolen from the many-faced god'.  According to the strict economy of the accounting, if three lives come out, three lives must also go into the tree or dragon egg.  Jaqen, Rorge and Biter are 'summoned from some hell' by Arya, the same way Dany summoned forth the dragons.  The telling word linking the two scenes is 'crack' (accompanying both the dragon hatching and the prisoners breaking free of the wagon)!  I'm not kidding -- this is important, as seen in the Prologue where the speech of the Others is similarly described as ice 'cracking'; after the Other speaks the 'cracking' word for the first time, Waymar's sword also 'cracks'; thereafter Waymar is wighted, reborn:

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A Clash of Kings - Arya IV

A donkey was caught in a ring of fire, shrieking in terror and pain. She could smell the stench of burning hair. The roof was gone up too, and things were falling down, pieces of flaming wood and bits of straw and hay. Arya put a hand over her mouth and nose. She couldn't see the wagon for the smoke, but she could still hear Biter screaming. She crawled toward the sound.

And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

Jhogo spied it first. "There," he said in a hushed voice. Dany looked and saw it, low in the east. The first star was a comet, burning red. Bloodred; fire red; the dragon's tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign.

Dany took the torch from Aggo's hand and thrust it between the logs. The oil took the fire at once, the brush and dried grass a heartbeat later. Tiny flames went darting up the wood like swift red mice, skating over the oil and leaping from bark to branch to leaf. A rising heat puffed at her face, soft and sudden as a lover's breath, but in seconds it had grown too hot to bear. Dany stepped backward. The wood crackled, louder and louder. Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. The flames whirled and writhed, racing each other up the platform. The dusk shimmered as the air itself seemed to liquefy from the heat. Dany heard logs spit and crack. The fires swept over Mirri Maz Duur. Her song grew louder, shriller … then she gasped, again and again, and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony.

...

Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her br**sts bare to the blaze, streams of milk flowing from her red and swollen ni**les. Now, she thought, now, and for an instant she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his smoky stallion, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled, and the whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing.

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

 

 

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Meditating on the idea that "three heads of the dragon" means three deaths to raise a dragon (or prince that

was promised), is Dany actually responsible for 9 deaths? Would she need 3 deaths for each dragon?

There are actually four dragons produced from three lives (or perhaps four lives, if we include Mirri...did Mirri's soul go into Dany?) !  Namely, three literal dragons and one figurative dragon in Dany herself.  Although there's a magical dimension in play, on a mundane level the 'prince who was promised' comes to power politically speaking as a result of the deaths of three others.  This can be demonstrated by how Dany's power grows on the back of the deaths of her kin.  After Viserys dies, she leapfrogs over him in the Targaryen line of succession; after Rhaego dies, similarly she supplants him; after Drogo dies, she takes his place as head of the khalasar.  It is the inverse of the Blood Betrayal, with the female in the position of the Bloodstone Emperor and the male (Viserys/Rhaego/Drogo) in the position of the Amethyst Empress.

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Although don't we read the color descriptions of the eggs as early as when Illyrio first gave them to her? 

   Magister Illyrio murmured a command, and four burly slaves hurried forward, bearing between them a great cedar chest bound in bronze. When she opened it, she found piles of the finest velvets and damasks the Free Cities could produce … and resting on top, nestled in the soft cloth, three huge eggs. Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. “What are they?” she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

The descriptions in hind site are prophetic.

Good point.  Either prophetic or symbolic!

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Getting back to the idea that it requires three deaths to raise a dragon...think of how large Balerion the Black Dread was reported to be. Certainly he was old, but what if they only grow with each successive sacrificial death?

So you think there are still other sacrifices to come for each of the dragons?  The death that I find confusing to interpret is that of Mirri.  How does her death fit into the whole equation?

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I like your last thought quite a lot.  I've thought along similar lines regarding the Weirwoods.  Was the Weirwood at House Blackwood so huge, because of a large number of sacrificial deaths?  And I further wonder if House Bracken was the source of the sacrifices back in the day.  Which may have been the reason that they poisoned the Weirwood.

And Winterfell, equated to a 'stone tree', which can be understood as an extension of the heart tree itself, is described as a 'monstrous' sprawling labyrinth of a 'giant' -- hinting at the vast number of sacrifices made to the tree at its center over the centuries.  It occurs to me that the name 'heart tree' might have an additional sinister connotation, with reference to how Dany's unborn baby, the one destined to be 'the stallion who mounts the world', and who eventually is born as a dragon instead, is fed even in the womb on a diet of bloody horse heart in order to make him strong.  Analogously, perhaps the 'heart' in heart tree refers to all those whose hearts have been sacrificed, shedding their blood in aid of the heart tree who has gorged on their blood and become fat.  The heart tree is like a fat spider sitting at the center of the web, an 'ice spider.'

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Not sure about what happened to Viserys after he got doused, but I do wonder if his "soul" went into one of the eggs at the time of his death.  Rhaego's soul may have done likewise, or the blood magic ritual sent his soul into Drago, and both souls were released into the eggs during the funeral pyre.  

If 'dragon blood' is analogous to 'skinchanger blood', then if someone has dragon blood, perhaps in the heightened moment of their traumatic death they may be able to telepathically reach out to a 'host' (the dragon egg, tree, wolf, raven, etc.), so that a part of their soul enters that host.  That works for Viserys and Rhaego, since they were both endowed with Targaryen blood.  I'm not sure how it worked with Drogo.  What was transacted here..:

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"Strength of the mount, go into the rider," Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo's bath. "Strength of the beast, go into the man."(AGOT -- Daenerys VIII)

?

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I think GRRM based the funeral pyre ritual on old Hindu cremation rituals.  It's my understanding that there is a Hindu belief that the soul is not released from the body until the body is consumed in the fire.

This is problematic since the only bodies consumed in the fire were that of live Mirri and dead Drogo -- how then did she end up with three dragons?  The maths doesn't add up.  The analogy works better if you assume the souls are already trapped in the eggs, waiting to hatch.  On the other hand, Dany sees Drogo's soul rising and mounting the smoky grey steed indicating that his soul had been trapped in his body until the funeral pyre.  Again, the analogy is asymmetrical -- how come she didn't see another two souls rising to enter the other two eggs at the same time?  Perhaps it's because Mirri with her black magic trapped Drogo's soul in his body?  I'm also not sure how to account for Mirri's part in all this.  Where did her soul go?

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

So you think there are still other sacrifices to come for each of the dragons?  The death that I find confusing to interpret is that of Mirri.  How does her death fit into the whole equation?

I was thinking about the humans that the dragons kill and/or consume. With each human death the dragon grows larger.

[ravenous reader]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was thinking about the humans that the dragons kill and/or consume. With each human death the dragon grows larger.

Ah, OK.  It was just confusing when you mentioned '9 deaths' specifically, so I wasn't sure who you were positing those to be!  I think the example of Arya and the trick she played on the many-faced god via Jaqen, whereby she obtained a potentially unlimited number of deaths with the last wish, is showing us that the appetite of a dragon for human sacrifices is bottomless.

[The Fattest Leech]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was thinking about the humans that the dragons kill and/or consume. With each human death the dragon grows larger.

Like this? 

(Sorry for the long quote. I'm on my phone and it's hard to edit) 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I 

"And the black beast?" asked Ser Jorah Mormont.

"The black," she said, "is Drogon." 

Yet even as her dragons prospered, her khalasar withered and died. Around them the land turned ever more desolate. Even devilgrass grew scant; horses dropped in their tracks, leaving so few that some of her people must trudge along on foot. Doreah took a fever and grew worse with every league they crossed. Her lips and hands broke with blood blisters, her hair came out in clumps, and one evenfall she lacked the strength to mount her horse. Jhogo said they must leave her or bind her to her saddle, but Dany remembered a night on the Dothraki sea, when the Lysene girl had taught her secrets so that Drogo might love her more. She gave Doreah water from her own skin, cooled her brow with a damp cloth, and held her hand until she died, shivering. Only then would she permit the khalasar to press on.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Like this? 

(Sorry for the long quote. I'm on my phone and it's hard to edit) 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I 

"And the black beast?" asked Ser Jorah Mormont.

"The black," she said, "is Drogon." 

Yet even as her dragons prospered, her khalasar withered and died. Around them the land turned ever more desolate. Even devilgrass grew scant; horses dropped in their tracks, leaving so few that some of her people must trudge along on foot. Doreah took a fever and grew worse with every league they crossed. Her lips and hands broke with blood blisters, her hair came out in clumps, and one evenfall she lacked the strength to mount her horse. Jhogo said they must leave her or bind her to her saddle, but Dany remembered a night on the Dothraki sea, when the Lysene girl had taught her secrets so that Drogo might love her more. She gave Doreah water from her own skin, cooled her brow with a damp cloth, and held her hand until she died, shivering. Only then would she permit the khalasar to press on.

The length of the quote is just fine. Yes, I was thinking Drogon is getting larger, because he's been eating humans just as I suspect Aegon the Conqueror's Balerion the Black Dread did too. It may also be the reason why contained dragons don't grow...they're not feeding on humans.

[The Hidden Dragon]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

There are actually four dragons produced from three lives (or perhaps four lives, if we include Mirri...did Mirri's soul go into Dany?) !  Namely, three literal dragons and one figurative dragon in Dany herself.  Although there's a magical dimension in play, on a mundane level the 'prince who was promised' comes to power politically speaking as a result of the deaths of three others.  This can be demonstrated by how Dany's power grows on the back of the deaths of her kin.  After Viserys dies, she leapfrogs over him in the Targaryen line of succession; after Rhaego dies, similarly she supplants him; after Drogo dies, she takes his place as head of the khalasar.  It is the inverse of the Blood Betrayal, with the female in the position of the Bloodstone Emperor and the male (Viserys/Rhaego/Drogo) in the position of the Amethyst Empress.

When you say four dragons produced from three lives (or four if you include Mirri), whose lives are you including? Are you including the stallion's life?  Not Drogo's stallion, but the stallion that was sacrificed (chosen by Rakharo) as part of the fire ritual.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

This is problematic since the only bodies consumed in the fire were that of live Mirri and dead Drogo -- how then did she end up with three dragons?  The maths doesn't add up.  The analogy works better if you assume the souls are already trapped in the eggs, waiting to hatch.  On the other hand, Dany sees Drogo's soul rising and mounting the smoky grey steed indicating that his soul had been trapped in his body until the funeral pyre.  Again, the analogy is asymmetrical -- how come she didn't see another two souls rising to enter the other two eggs at the same time?  Perhaps it's because Mirri with her black magic trapped Drogo's soul in his body?  I'm also not sure how to account for Mirri's part in all this.  Where did her soul go?

My thought is that the blood tent ritual sent Rhaego's "spirit/essence/soul/psyche" into Drogo.  Drogo ends up having two heads (three if you count his horse).  So during the pyre, both souls are transferred into one or more of the eggs.  I don't think we can forget the significance of the horses either.  We have one sacrificed in the blood magic ritual and another horse sacrificed on the pyre.  I think the idea of two horses being part of the sacrifice may be part of what makes the dragons "rideable".  They obtained a soul of an animal who has already been "broken in".  Which if my math is correct, may mean that one of the dragons will be distinctly "unrideable".

[Melifeather]

37 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

My thought is that the blood tent ritual sent Rhaego's "spirit/essence/soul/psyche" into Drogo.  Drogo ends up having two heads (three if you count his horse).  So during the pyre, both souls are transferred into one or more of the eggs.  I don't think we can forget the significance of the horses either.  We have one sacrificed in the blood magic ritual and another horse sacrificed on the pyre.  I think the idea of two horses being part of the sacrifice may be part of what makes the dragons "rideable".  They obtained a soul of an animal who has already been "broken in".  Which if my math is correct, may mean that one of the dragons will be distinctly "unrideable".

I tend to agree with this, but didn't Dany only sacrifice one horse: Drogo's?. There are certain "ingredients" to the blood magic ritual and a horse needs to be included. Ned brought Lady Dustin's husband's red stallion home, so I think we can assume the ritual he interrupted was halted before it could be completed. A mother with her infant or maybe even a pregnant female as well as some type of priest/priestess is also part of the ritual. I think Dany's account demonstrates all of the necessary requirements. We can surmise that the tower of joy and Summerhall were missing at least one of these things.

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

When you say four dragons produced from three lives (or four if you include Mirri), whose lives are you including? Are you including the stallion's life?  Not Drogo's stallion, but the stallion that was sacrificed (chosen by Rakharo) as part of the fire ritual.

I was including the human lives sacrificed in aid of the dragon 'forging', namely Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo as the main three (four with Mirri).  But, you're right, I had forgotten about the two horses involved!  Thanks for reminding me.  Mirri sings "Strength of the mount, go into the rider," Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo's bath. "Strength of the beast, go into the man;" so that would imply for one, as @Frey family reunion has suggested, that the soul of the horse went into Drogo, analogous to how part of the wolf goes into the warg after death, and vice versa, depending on who dies first.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My thought is that the blood tent ritual sent Rhaego's "spirit/essence/soul/psyche" into Drogo.  Drogo ends up having two heads (three if you count his horse).  So during the pyre, both souls are transferred into one or more of the eggs.  

Assuming that accounts for the two souls that ended up in the dragons Rhaegal and Drogon, how about Viserion?  When was that soul transferred, and from whom?

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I don't think we can forget the significance of the horses either.  We have one sacrificed in the blood magic ritual and another horse sacrificed on the pyre. 

I had forgotten about the horses!  Indeed, that's bound to be significant.

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I think the idea of two horses being part of the sacrifice may be part of what makes the dragons "rideable".  They obtained a soul of an animal who has already been "broken in".  Which if my math is correct, may mean that one of the dragons will be distinctly "unrideable".

That's very interesting.  It's reminiscent of the information in Varamyr's Prologue about how skinchangers take on the characteristics of their skinchanging host animal.

I think you're right about the one 'unrideable' dragon.  Given that Dany has had no problem riding Drogon, that leaves either Viserion or Rhaegal.  Judging by how the latter snuck up on Quentyn, who fancied himself a dragontamer, I reckon the unpredictable wildcard is the green dragon.  The question remaining is -- will Bran be able to skinchange him; or will he be controlled via another means, e.g. dragonbinder?

31 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I tend to agree with this, but didn't Dany only sacrifice one horse: Drogo's?. There are certain "ingredients" to the blood magic ritual and a horse needs to be included. Ned brought Lady Dustin's husband's red stallion home, so I think we can assume the ritual he interrupted was halted before it could be completed.

Great point, Feather!  Drogo's sacrificed horse was a red stallion.  If part of the soul of a sacrificed skinchanger goes into the skinchanging host at death, then perhaps Lyanna's soul in dying went into the horse and from thence found its way home, i.e. the north (she was a renowned rider, 'like a centaur' which is a horse-human hybrid, hinting that she might have had a skinchanging aptitude).  The difference between Dany's ritual and Lyanna's is that Lyanna chose to sacrifice herself in lieu of her child, instead of acting in the interests of her own self-preservation at her child's expense.

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A mother with her infant or maybe even a pregnant female as well as some type of priest/priestess is also part of the ritual. I think Dany's account demonstrates all of the necessary requirements. We can surmise that the tower of joy and Summerhall were missing at least one of these things.

The 'priest' in question would have been Howland Reed (he's a greenseer).

[Prof. Cecily]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Could you shout a source for maester Aemon explaining that "prince" was a mistranslation of "dragon", please?

 

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo’s talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. “No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.” Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. “I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger.”

Sorry, but the mistake in translation maester Aemon refers to is prince/princess, not prince/dragon.

Do you have anything more?

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I was including the human lives sacrificed in aid of the dragon 'forging', namely Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo as the main three (four with Mirri).  But, you're right, I had forgotten about the two horses involved!  Thanks for reminding me.  Mirri sings "Strength of the mount, go into the rider," Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo's bath. "Strength of the beast, go into the man;" so that would imply for one, as @Frey family reunion has suggested, that the soul of the horse went into Drogo, analogous to how part of the wolf goes into the warg after death, and vice versa, depending on who dies first.

Assuming that accounts for the two souls that ended up in the dragons Rhaegal and Drogon, how about Viserion?  When was that soul transferred, and from whom?

I had forgotten about the horses!  Indeed, that's bound to be significant.

That's very interesting.  It's reminiscent of the information in Varamyr's Prologue about how skinchangers take on the characteristics of their skinchanging host animal.

I think you're right about the one 'unrideable' dragon.  Given that Dany has had no problem riding Drogon, that leaves either Viserion or Rhaegal.  Judging by how the latter snuck up on Quentyn, who fancied himself a dragontamer, I reckon the unpredictable wildcard is the green dragon.  The question remaining is -- will Bran be able to skinchange him; or will he be controlled via another means, e.g. dragonbinder?

Great point, Feather!  Drogo's sacrificed horse was a red stallion.  If part of the soul of a sacrificed skinchanger goes into the skinchanging host at death, then perhaps Lyanna's soul in dying went into the horse and from thence found its way home, i.e. the north (she was a renowned rider, 'like a centaur' which is a horse-human hybrid, hinting that she might have had a skinchanging aptitude).  The difference between Dany's ritual and Lyanna's is that Lyanna chose to sacrifice herself in lieu of her child, instead of acting in the interests of her own self-preservation at her child's expense.

The 'priest' in question would have been Howland Reed (he's a greenseer).

Pretty Pig also theorized that Lyanna went into the Dustin red stallion, but I don't currently ascribe to this, because I don't believe Lyanna was wherever the blood ritual was. I think she was found where Arya left the Hound since I suspect Arya is repeating Lyanna's travels through the Riverlands. Or alternately she may have never left Winterfell. If she was pregnant with Brandon's baby, then she would copy the Bael's tail and hide in the crypts until the baby was born. I tend to think that the woman at the blood sacrifice was actually Ashara and that the people involved were trying to resurrect Rhaegar, which would also leave out Howland, but perhaps include the woods witch.

 

50 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

 

Sorry, but the mistake in translation maester Aemon refers to is prince/princess, not prince/dragon.

Do you have anything more?

 

If I am understanding Aemon correctly he is saying that the original text in the old language reads "dragon", but that the Targaryens translated into "prince", but since dragons are neither female  nor male then dragon could also be princess. But even so it appears that Aemon and Rhaegar were wrong about the prince that was promised. The text was referring to how to raise a dragon all along. You follow the blood sacrifice recipe correctly and you will get a dragon...that's the promise.

Edited to add: the original translation should be read as "the dragon that was promised". Hope this clarifies things?

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I tend to agree with this, but didn't Dany only sacrifice one horse: Drogo's?. There are certain "ingredients" to the blood magic ritual and a horse needs to be included. Ned brought Lady Dustin's husband's red stallion home, so I think we can assume the ritual he interrupted was halted before it could be completed. A mother with her infant or maybe even a pregnant female as well as some type of priest/priestess is also part of the ritual. I think Dany's account demonstrates all of the necessary requirements. We can surmise that the tower of joy and Summerhall were missing at least one of these things.

Drogo's horse was sacrificed in the blood magic ritual in his tent.  Which apparently is the same time that Rhaego was "sacrificed" when Dany unwisely went inside the tent. 

They sacrificed another horse on the funeral pyre which consumed Drogo's body (and Mirri).

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Assuming that accounts for the two souls that ended up in the dragons Rhaegal and Drogon, how about Viserion?  When was that soul transferred, and from whom?

 

I'm not really sure if Viserys' psyche was transferred.  If it was, then it must have been transferred into one of the eggs at the time of his death.  My basic thought is the funeral pyre transferred three human "souls" and two horse "souls":  The psyches of Rhaego and Drogo, and Drogo's horse were all probably conjoined thanks to the blood magic ritual.  Then the funeral pyre may have resulted in two additional souls, Mirri's and the unnamed horse.

My thought is the Targaryen legend of "the dragon must have three heads" may not have been fulfilled yet, or may have only been fulfilled through one of the three dragons.  If the PTWP prophecy is associated with this prophecy and is associated with a Valyrian Sphinx (and Aemon's fevered ramblings suggests that it may be) then what we're looking at is something analogous to a Warg's permanent joining of his animal.  Such as the Children within the ravens, or Orell inside his eagle, or Varamyr within the one eyed wolf.  In other words a human's psyche permanently joining the dragon. 

Since they have been trying to solve this "riddle" for about a thousand years, then I don't think the dragons merely hatching fulfilled this prophecy.  We've had dragons and dragonriders before this.  I dont' think we've yet to have the Prince that Was Promised: a dragon with the psyche of a human(s).

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

So you think there are still other sacrifices to come for each of the dragons?  The death that I find confusing to interpret is that of Mirri.  How does her death fit into the whole equation?

It's a good question.  Mirri is a 'godswife' or so she describes herself.  She is 'holy blood', something that Euron is taking advantage of in the Forsaken Chapter of WoW.  He means to sacrifice his own brother for the power of his holy blood as well as his pregnant salt wife.   He has been capturing wizards, sorcerers and other 'holy men' for the purpose of sacrifice to transform himself into Azor Ahai.  The first sacrifice seems to be a forging in water.  So it's not just king's blood in the equation; holy blood is significant as well for some reason.