Black Crow

Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

464 posts in this topic

44 minutes ago, Voice said:
On 6/7/2017 at 9:32 PM, PrettyPig said:

Second, note the underlined.   Two people in the entire series refer to Jaime killing Aerys with a golden sword:   Viserys, as he told it to Dany as a child, and Ned, in this fever dream.   Jaime wasn't wielding a golden sword, however:
 

Odd that only two people  - Ned, and by proxy somehow, Viserys  - certainly DO remember Jaime sporting something gold that day, and even odder that these two people both misidentify the gold as the same wrong item.

 

Searching "golden sword" on A search of Ice and Fire reveals many references (by Sansa, Tyrion, Catelyn, Eddard and Jaime himself) to Jaime having a golden sword. 

From ACOK  - Catelyn VII (Jaime speaking)

"Kingslayer," he pronounced carefully. "And such a king he was!" He lifted his cup. "To Aerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. And to the sword that opened his throat. A golden sword, don't you know. Until his blood ran red down the blade. Those are the Lannister colors, red and gold."

Jaime, himself, refers to opening Aerys' throat with his golden sword.

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15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Which begs the question, what were such extraordinary men -- and three of them all at once -- doing in the middle of nowhere playing 'I spy' and arguing about who should fetch/brew the covfefe?!

And the answer once again is that they were somewhere "far away" but not "here", and that they only came to the tower by agreement for a reencounter.

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Just now, Black Crow said:

And the answer once again is that they were somewhere "far away" but not "here", and that they only came to the tower by agreement for a reencounter.

What do you mean by 'reencounter'?  What was the purpose of the meeting?  Why there of all places?

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Notwithstanding the textual references I rather doubt that Jaime's sword was gilded, or rather that the blade was golden. A golden or gilded hilt on the other hand is a different matter entirely as we see later.

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1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

What do you mean by 'reencounter'?  What was the purpose of the meeting?  Why there of all places?

A reencounter is an archaic term for a duel by appointment, especially one involving more single opponents.

Hence what I'm suggesting it that the two parties agreed to meet by the old watchtower, a known landmark remote from the public gaze where they could seek an accommodation or in default of it fight to the death.

The three knights arrive there first, up comes Ned's party. Ned tries to persuade them to surrender; they decline and the fight begins. All very ritualised and once again I'd recommend that chapter in The Three Musketeers.

:fencing::fencing::fencing:

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6 hours ago, Yohn said:

I think you're really reaching here. 'Yet' simply refers to the fact that 'these' were not ordinary foes. Why read something ino it that isn't there?

Why compare the dream to real life if it was exactly the same? :dunno:

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

What I would suggest is that we consider the possibility that Lyanna's death bed scene and the confrontation at the tower of joy deal with two seperate mysteries.

Years ago, GRRM responded to a fan's question (a question assuming RLJ) about the tower of joy by cautioning her not to read too literally into Ned's fever dream about the event.  Which is unusual considering that Ned's conscious and non-fevered memories of the tower of joy line up with his dream, and his conscious non-fevered memories of Lyanna's death bed scene also line up with Ned's dream.  So why shouldn't we take the dream literally?

I think the answer is that the only thing connecting the two events in time and place and sequence, is Ned's fevered dream.  The fact that these events took place at the same location and during the same time is never established anywhere else.

Bingo.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I agree, the text says they were not ordinary men and immediately goes on to explain why they were not ordinary

It's OK if you, Voice, and other disagree with me. I'm fine with that. :cool4:

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Good stuff. Might this change/augment the timeline you had for RR?

 

To be fair, Jaime's account doesn't describe the appearance of his sword. It might have been gilded, and Viserys and Ned might still be correct.

What I always found funny about Ned's account, was his awe at Jaime upon the throne:

"I cannot answer for the gods, Your Grace … only for what I found when I rode into the throne room that day," Ned said. "Aerys was dead on the floor, drowned in his own blood. His dragon skulls stared down from the walls. Lannister's men were everywhere. Jaime wore the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor. I can see him still. Even his sword was gilded. He was seated on the Iron Throne, high above his knights, wearing a helm fashioned in the shape of a lion's head. How he glittered!"

 

 

Sure. And I don't really have a dog in that fight. My point is that we've seen men prepare for tourneys and win them, and in those preparations, we've never seen a victor gather flowers and make a crown for the qolab.

Thus, I find it more likely that such crowns are made by the tourney's hosts, rather than the knights who enter the lists. And at Harrenhal, I think Lord Walter Whent's daughter makes more sense as the crown's maker than these knights.

If I remember correctly Jaime says no one noticed that he had changed into his golden armor. I'd have to go digging, but pretty sure...

55 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Eminently within the realm of the possible!

Because GRRM is a tricksy bird and his wife says he doesn't do obvious..? ;)

Very true.

Never trust a dream...

Dreams become lessons; lessons dreams -- but dreams do not become canon!

Which begs the question, what were such extraordinary men -- and three of them all at once -- doing in the middle of nowhere playing 'I spy' and arguing about who should fetch/brew the covfefe?!

:rofl:

42 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

 

Searching "golden sword" on A search of Ice and Fire reveals many references (by Sansa, Tyrion, Catelyn, Eddard and Jaime himself) to Jaime having a golden sword. 

From ACOK  - Catelyn VII (Jaime speaking)

"Kingslayer," he pronounced carefully. "And such a king he was!" He lifted his cup. "To Aerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. And to the sword that opened his throat. A golden sword, don't you know. Until his blood ran red down the blade. Those are the Lannister colors, red and gold."

Jaime, himself, refers to opening Aerys' throat with his golden sword.

Jaime is repeating the gossip told about himself. This is not a confirmation that his sword was golden, but rather how the tale is repeated....don't cha know!

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1 hour ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Searching "golden sword" on A search of Ice and Fire reveals many references (by Sansa, Tyrion, Catelyn, Eddard and Jaime himself) to Jaime having a golden sword

Ah... I don't use tht, can't get it to work.   Will post a comparison later though between Viserys' / Dany's description of Aerys' death and Jaime/ Ned's thoughts on it.... nearly identical, which is weird considering V was supposedly holed up on Dragonstone.  

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:


 

Jaime is repeating the gossip told about himself. This is not a confirmation that his sword was golden, but rather how the tale is repeated....don't cha know!

Now that is a thought... reminds me of Jaime's remark about Hightower being "a better man than me, all agree"--which imo is very heavy but very subtle sarcasm.

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17 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The only subversive answer is to make him Wylla's son, and play it straight faced.

Well, I agree that any form of Secret Parentage is definitely a trope of its own, yet some variations are far less cliched than others.

The most cliched possible version, as far as I'm concerned, would be:

(1) Jon was born the true heir to the throne

(2) This will one day be revealed and broadly believed, and so

(3) Jon will be king of alllll Westeros, First of His Name

Only Rhaegar-and-some-woman seems at all likely to make that scenario play out in the books.

This as it happens is exactly the fairy-tale scenario that seems to be the most popular among RLJ adherents (though not all of them believe or expect it). 

The good MtnLion, for instance, an RLJ regular, has gone so far as to say that GRRM has already written in the canon that Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen.  My goodness, I just don't remember reading that sentence.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the answer is that the only thing connecting the two events in time and place and sequence, is Ned's fevered dream.  The fact that these events took place at the same location and during the same time is never established anywhere else.

I would very nearly agree with all of that, with one little caveat:

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

Since it's an old dream, he's had it before, and he very likely wasn't feverish then. 

So this is just a recurring surrealistic dream that involves these three elements.  And the surrealism wasn't caused by the fever.

To me it seems perfectly true that Lyanna might have died somewhere else, and Ned's dreaming mind might just have conflated the two events.  And I recall this as being a major point of contention between Weasel Pie and some other folks, but IMO, Weasel was simply right when he said Lyanna's place of death wasn't factually established.  He was being more precise than they were.

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Which begs the question, what were such extraordinary men -- and three of them all at once -- doing in the middle of nowhere playing 'I spy' and arguing about who should fetch/brew the covfefe?!

Contrary to popular (twitter) belief, "covfefe" is not "coffee."

The Great Orange Anus was actually recounting Rhaegar's fate at the Trident. The "negative press" was that of Robert and his warhammer, obviously.

And in spite of that warhammer crushing his beautiful chest, the dragonprince was able to use his last breath to utter a woman's name, "Covfefe..."

 

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

On phone so no long reply, but nutshell, no.   (Will have to look at the original timeline later, it may need slight revision in some areas)

Cool. :cheers:

 

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

Ned went to Dorne at the end of the war...afaik that isn't in dispute.  Question is when.   If I recall correctly I had Ned at the TOJ close to the end of 283, a couple of months after trident and sack.  Still think that.  

You should check out what orderofthereenhand and kinglittlefinger added to that timeline. There are some very interesting differences with your own that I think you would very much like and appreciate. OotGH's contribution in particular swayed an old belief of mine, and was fully supported by canon.

 

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

That being said, as you may remember I don't believe Rhaella / Viserys went to Dragonstone (at least together) after Rhaegar's death, either.   

I do remember. :) And I totally dig it, but can't say I have a very strong opinion one way or the other regarding that debate. 

 

1 hour ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

 

Searching "golden sword" on A search of Ice and Fire reveals many references (by Sansa, Tyrion, Catelyn, Eddard and Jaime himself) to Jaime having a golden sword. 

From ACOK  - Catelyn VII (Jaime speaking)

"Kingslayer," he pronounced carefully. "And such a king he was!" He lifted his cup. "To Aerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. And to the sword that opened his throat. A golden sword, don't you know. Until his blood ran red down the blade. Those are the Lannister colors, red and gold."

Jaime, himself, refers to opening Aerys' throat with his golden sword.

LOL! I didn't even think to check Jaime's POV! :wacko:

Thanks, THD. :cheers:

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2 minutes ago, JNR said:

The good MtnLion, for instance, an RLJ regular, has gone so far as to say that GRRM has already written in the canon that Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen.  My goodness, I just don't remember reading that sentence.

Considering your poor reading comprehension, that isn't very surprising ole chap.

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12 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Well it's certainly not Disney!

What's your view on Jons parentage in that case?

Thanks for the rest of the answers, I think the staged conversation that spells out all of the KG duties and their response that they aren't there is the single biggest challenge to the last stand thought.  It's seems too contrived to draw attention to all Of The foresworn duties and thus plant the seed of some special reason to be there if the real answer is.

"Well we're a stubborn lot and we all fancied a bit of a brawl so we went to some remote outpost in the middle if nowhere on the off chance that a powerful Lord Of The rebellion might rock up with a bunch of his mates."

 

Ain't that the truth;certainly not Disney.

As to who i peg as Jon's parents.Robert and Lyanna = Jon.

E.g. Obey. If a member of the royal family said: Stay here at this tower until i send word or come back.They'd have to.No matter how much they'd hate their swords rusting.

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

If we're straying away from the who said what and why outside the tower into the wider metaphysical question, a number of points need to be noted:

First, no matter how it has changed, the 1993 synopsis clearly painted the resolution of the mystery as facilitating a relationship between Jon and Arya. This, as we've discussed before, may no longer be on the cards, but, in terms of cliche, this outcome, albeit more likely to feature Sansa than Arya comes way below the lost Prince trope and I really can't see GRRM exchanging such a reasonable outcome for such a tired cliche.

Secondly we're presented with the Bael story which features a bard, a blue rose and an abduction of the Lord Stark's daughter, before she turns up again after a year and a day, with a bouncing baby. That baby then becomes Lord of Winterfell.

Robb Stark is dead, Bran the tree won't be Lord of Winterfell and in terms of the story Rickon is a nonentity who will come to a sticky end; leaving Bael's son, Jon, to become Lord of Winterfell.

Overall this story is and always has been about the children of Winterfell, everything else, ultimately is a side issue.

Ohhh Rickon will be fine.He's the Stark in the back pocket.Tucked away nicely.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

What I would suggest is that we consider the possibility that Lyanna's death bed scene and the confrontation at the tower of joy deal with two seperate mysteries.

Years ago, GRRM responded to a fan's question (a question assuming RLJ) about the tower of joy by cautioning her not to read too literally into Ned's fever dream about the event.  Which is unusual considering that Ned's conscious and non-fevered memories of the tower of joy line up with his dream, and his conscious non-fevered memories of Lyanna's death bed scene also line up with Ned's dream.  So why shouldn't we take the dream literally?

I think the answer is that the only thing connecting the two events in time and place and sequence, is Ned's fevered dream.  The fact that these events took place at the same location and during the same time is never established anywhere else.

 

The bold is certainly true.

24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

A reencounter is an archaic term for a duel by appointment, especially one involving more single opponents.

Hence what I'm suggesting it that the two parties agreed to meet by the old watchtower, a known landmark remote from the public gaze where they could seek an accommodation or in default of it fight to the death.

The three knights arrive there first, up comes Ned's party. Ned tries to persuade them to surrender; they decline and the fight begins. All very ritualised and once again I'd recommend that chapter in The Three Musketeers.

:fencing::fencing::fencing:

Its a possibility,but agree to an outnumbered duel??? I know Dayne and Co were bad assess but that's essentially suicide by sword.

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Did they remove COMIC SANS?!

How will the Faith admonish the nonbelievers?!

This is an outrage.

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Also, just a couple of little notes about this:

Quote

 

(1) “I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

(2) “When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

(3) “I came down on Storm’s End to lift the seige,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

(4) “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Sir Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

 

Like BC, I think the KG are plainly Targ loyalists who would have served Aerys' interests if they could have.  But they couldn't.  So they weren't any of those four places Ned lists.

Now about (3).  Notice that Ned says he expected the KG to be at Storm's End.  But Ned also knew that there were no Targaryens at Storm's End at that time.  He knew they were all dead or else on Dragonmount. 

This means that it is, in Ned's mind, perfectly possible for the KG to be somewhere on behalf of the royal interest, and it doesn't matter a speck whether there are any royals there or not.  The KG will still have to fullfill their orders.

So if anybody tells you the KG would have been required by their vows to attend Viserys at Dragonstone unless they were guarding Baby Future King Jon Targaryen... you should be able to see from the above that that can't possibly be the case. 

If it were the case, Ned would never, ever have expected the KG to be at Storm's End.

And finally, about (4).  The KG know that Viserys fled to Dragonstone with Darry before the Sack.  Is it possible that they don't know Viserys was named Aerys' heir before that? 

Nah.  They knew.  So this, too, defeats the idea that they would have been required by their vows to attend the perceived Targ king (Baby Jon).  That idea is toast.

So what is it that compelled their behavior?  It's what GRRM said in the Shaw interview: their orders from Rhaegar. 

And so those orders can only have been given well before Rhaegar died, at a time when he almost certainly did not know whether a hypothetical baby would be born alive... or would be born male.  It was a time when Rhaegar absolutely, positively would have considered his still-alive son Aegon to be his heir.  It was a time when Rhaegar expected to win at the Trident.

So whatever Rhaegar's orders to the KG were, we can be pretty confident they weren't about a hypothetical baby bump being his heir.

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12 minutes ago, Voice said:

Considering your poor reading comprehension, that isn't very surprising ole chap.

If only a specialist were around to teach that subject to the unwashed masses!  :thumbsup:

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1 minute ago, JNR said:

If only a specialist were around to teach that subject to the unwashed masses!  :thumbsup:

I fear some of we lowly bastards are doomed to e'er know nothing.

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19 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I agree that any form of Secret Parentage is definitely a trope of its own, yet some variations are far less cliched than others.

The most cliched possible version, as far as I'm concerned, would be:

(1) Jon was born the true heir to the throne

(2) This will one day be revealed and broadly believed, and so

(3) Jon will be king of alllll Westeros, First of His Name

Only Rhaegar-and-some-woman seems at all likely to make that scenario play out in the books.

This as it happens is exactly the fairy-tale scenario that seems to be the most popular among RLJ adherents (though not all of them believe or expect it). 

The good MtnLion, for instance, an RLJ regular, has gone so far as to say that GRRM has already written in the canon that Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen.  My goodness, I just don't remember reading that sentence.

I expect 1 but not 2 and 3.  GRRM puts a lot of emphasis on bloodlines.  We could have a fantasy series where this doesn't matter,  but this isn't it.  That doesn't mean Jon is Rhaegar's son but I'd be stocked if the most important characters in the story don't have the most important blood.   Where GRRM differs from the real world is blood has magical power, and I think we will see that.

I am not familiar with MtnLion,  but saying GRRM already wrote something doesn't mean it was published.   I am certain GRRM knows who Jon's parents are and won't change his mind.

GRRM also wrote for a typical reader, so plots that seem too straightforward for people debating his work online for a decade between books work better for that crowd.

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33 minutes ago, Voice said:

Contrary to popular (twitter) belief, "covfefe" is not "coffee."

My dear cunning linguist, pay attention to my words and do not impute associations to them I never intended!  Did I really suggest covfefe=coffee?  Stop jumping to conclusions.  I talked about 'fetching' or 'brewing' covfefe...which shouldn't automatically be taken to mean anything as quotidian as a pick-me-up beverage in the middle of the desert -- like GRRM, I don't do quotidian (I do poetic whimsy).  One can 'fetch' all manner of things (swords, or babies for example) and all sorts of plans might be 'a-brewing' in the offing...

The exact nature of the 'covfefe' leading to the kerfuffle at the tower of joy remains elusive.

Quote

The Great Orange Anus was actually recounting Rhaegar's fate at the Trident. The "negative press" was that of Robert and his warhammer, obviously.

I love the pun on 'press' -- being hit with a hammer in the chest is a bit of negative press(ure)...although not in the pulmonological physiological sense!

Quote

And in spite of that warhammer crushing his beautiful chest, the dragonprince was able to use his last breath to utter a woman's name, "Covfefe..."

Brilliant :lol:  (the sad thing is that with all the hoopla and the branding that goes with it, many people will surely soon be naming their babies just that -- how life mirrors fiction!)

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20 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Its a possibility,but agree to an outnumbered duel??? I know Dayne and Co were bad asses but that's essentially suicide by sword.

Well given that only Ned and the Knight of the Laughing Tree lived to ride away, they didn't do too badly, especially if pore Jesse was shot in the back

The conversation which preceded the fight suggests they didn't care whether they lived or died. Their lord was dead and they were going to take down as many of his enemies as they could before they followed him.

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4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I would need to see the actual quote for context, and what specifically GRRM was referring to, but as I said, it's already "too late;" GRRM has written his work with a respect for many of the conventions and traditions of the fairy tale, despite the occasional subversion for surprise (eg, Eddard 'feels' like the protagonist, but doesn't have plot armor), which isn't necessarily a bad thing. A story that strives purely for surprise and the defiance of storytelling conventions can easily become a string of anticlimaxes--to some degree, reader expectations are based on what they think would be satisfying.

For example, nearly every reader seems to hold to an expectation that the Wall will eventually fall, and that there will be a war with the Others; the climactic final battle is as much a genre cliche as the hidden heir (perhaps more so), yet people will rarely advocate for the idea the that it would be good for GRRM to subvert expectations and never have the people south of the Wall interact with the army of the dead.

Similarly, it would be more "reasonable" or realistic for Walder Frey to die of old age than suffer some sort of comeuppance, some sort of karmic fate--but do we want that to be Walder Frey's resolution? Do we want the Boltons and Littlefinger to escape justice? Do we hope Tyrion never finds Tysha, because that would be a little too 'fairy tale?' 

In any case, I find the Disney comparisons to RLJ not entirely apt--if RLJ is true, Rhaegar is not a sympathetic figure, but someone who brought ruin to the realm and his family in favor of pursuing his heart's desire, a theme that GRRM has visited on more than one occasion already.

I will look for the quote in its entirety.

Is it fairy tale or is our proclivity for such a thing coloring how and why the clues around Jon's parentage is missed? 

Ok this goes to what people see as clues.To me the clues say Rhaegar is a sympathetic character because he got duped by a more skilled player and because he was a scapegoat.

I don't think he ever knew anything about Lyanna ,and the reason he was absent had more to do with the game he was playing to get rid of his dad .As well as Ashara Dayne's baby he fathered...Aka Dany.

Everything is being seen through the lens of blue roses specifically that he passed over his wife and gave Lyanna flowers.

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26 minutes ago, JNR said:

Also, just a couple of little notes about this:

Like BC, I think the KG are plainly Targ loyalists who would have served Aerys' interests if they could have.  But they couldn't.  So they weren't any of those four places Ned lists.

Now about (3).  Notice that Ned says he expected the KG to be at Storm's End.  But Ned also knew that there were no Targaryens at Storm's End at that time.  He knew they were all dead or else on Dragonmount. 

This means that it is, in Ned's mind, perfectly possible for the KG to be somewhere on behalf of the royal interest, and it doesn't matter a speck whether there are any royals there or not.  The KG will still have to fullfill their orders.

So if anybody tells you the KG would have been required by their vows to attend Viserys at Dragonstone unless they were guarding Baby Future King Jon Targaryen... you should be able to see from the above that that can't possibly be the case. 

If it were the case, Ned would never, ever have expected the KG to be at Storm's End.

And finally, about (4).  The KG know that Viserys fled to Dragonstone with Darry before the Sack.  Is it possible that they don't know Viserys was named Aerys' heir before that? 

Nah.  They knew.  So this, too, defeats the idea that they would have been required by their vows to attend the perceived Targ king (Baby Jon).  That idea is toast.

So what is it that compelled their behavior?  It's what GRRM said in the Shaw interview: their orders from Rhaegar. 

And so those orders can only have been given well before Rhaegar died, at a time when he almost certainly did not know whether a hypothetical baby would be born alive... or would be born male.  It was a time when Rhaegar absolutely, positively would have considered his still-alive son Aegon to be his heir.  It was a time when Rhaegar expected to win at the Trident.

So whatever Rhaegar's orders to the KG were, we can be pretty confident they weren't about a hypothetical baby bump being his heir.

Rhaegar wouldn't necessarily make guarding first in line to the throne his first priority.  Most parents with kids in danger would prioritize whichever child was in the greatest danger, not which kid is most important.   Rhaegar also believes in tpwwp, if he thought this was Jon, he'd make sure he survived.

I don't think Rheagar expected to win.  We have a quote about him dying for the woman he loved.  Whether or not that is Lyanna,  it implies he expected to lose.

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