Cat is definitely the heir named in Robb's will

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

LOL.  Actually, @40 Thousand Skeletons's idea of exploring this is not all that silly, although I may disagree with most of his conclusions.  To be honest, the 'trap' as he correctly points out has not really been explained satisfactorily.  There are also certain subtle indications in the text that this may have happened, against all expectation.  For example, we've encountered the rationale of 'keeping ones treasures in separate purses' before, in the specific context likewise of safeguarding Robb's heirs by keeping them in separate locations from one another.  Compare:

(the heir and the spare, assuming Robb's wife might conceive)

with:

Here the heir and the spare represents Bran and Rickon respectively.

Reluctantly, I'll admit that GRRM may have chosen the cockamamie idea of making Cat Robb's heir, despite it making no sense on most fronts, not least from the point of view of Robb's motivation. Sometimes, GRRM's disdain for the obvious prompts him into constructing such convoluted twists in the plotlines that he neglects the healthy continuity of basic characterisation.  A classic case in point is the solution of Joffrey as the one who organised Bran's assassination attempt.  The whole (un)familiarity-with-Valyrian-steel schtick (and don't get me started on those ellipses...) is so stretched and trite to the point of being unconvincing, not to mention the flimsy motivation, on the one hand, as well as inexplicable lack of motivation, on the other hand, we are expected to swallow regarding the roles in the whole affair of Joffrey and Cersei, respectively.  But at least we were surprised -- Ha!  Gotcha!  

Thank you for defending me

LOL that is, no joke, precisely my goal on the forum; I wish for my fellow readers to reluctantly admit that my theories are possible. And hilariously, I was totally with you 100% for most of this response until that part about Joffrey. The explanation of Joffrey sending the assassin is so unsatisfying that I am fully convinced it was Bloodraven and not Joffrey who was responsible. The logic for Joffrey doing it presented by Tyrion and Jaime is utter nonsense. But I have discussed this at length in other more relevant threads obviously.

But other than that, I agree, GRRM sometimes has some crazy twists that neglect/distort previous characterizations of things.

And yes, that point about Robb separating his potentially pregnant wife from his "spare" heir Cat, literally right before naming his heir, is a big hint pointing to Cat being the heir.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Thank you for defending me

LOL that is, no joke, precisely my goal on the forum; I wish for my fellow readers to reluctantly admit that my theories are possible. And hilariously, I was totally with you 100% for most of this response until that part about Joffrey. The explanation of Joffrey sending the assassin is so unsatisfying that I am fully convinced it was Bloodraven and not Joffrey who was responsible. The logic for Joffrey doing it presented by Tyrion and Jaime is utter nonsense. But I have discussed this at length in other more relevant threads obviously.

But other than that, I agree, GRRM sometimes has some crazy twists that neglect/distort previous characterizations of things.

And yes, that point about Robb separating his potentially pregnant wife from his "spare" heir Cat, literally right before naming his heir, is a big hint pointing to Cat being the heir.

Again? Is there anything Bloodraven didn't do?

 

[Darkstream]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again? Is there anything Bloodraven didn't do?

 

Well, he hasn't skinchanged GRRM yet, and finished writing Winds for him - so we can finally put to rest some of these theories floating around.

...that might just be on his to do list, as he does get blamed for everything.

[kissdbyfire]

 @Darkstream! Poor man, can't even turn into a tree in peace! 

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Honestly, this seems to be the driving factor behind all of the theories I've seen you put forth. I get the impression that you are just rolling the dice against the odds, in the hopes that you fluke out, making you look like a genius. 

Well... I appreciate your honesty, so I will respond respectfully. This is absolutely not the driving factor behind my theories. I am not rolling the dice against the odds. I am simply obsessed with figuring out what is going on in asoiaf, because I consider it to be the most fun and entertaining puzzle out of every puzzle/mental challenge in my life, and it is a puzzle with an expiration date, because theoretically TWOW and ADOS will be released some day and much of my fun will be over. And my quest for answers has led my conclusions about the story to change drastically over the past couple years. In particular, reading other stories by GRRM from his Thousand Worlds universe completely shattered my previously held notions about asoiaf, namely And Seven Times Never Kill Man, Men of Greywater Station, and Nightflyers. As much as people on the forum believe otherwise, I never reach a conclusion because it is what I "want" to happen in the story. Even after reading the books 3 times, I still wanted Aegon to be real. But I think he is fake because of the evidence.

Bloodraven sending Bran's assassin is a perfect example. Most people consider that explanation to be tinfoil and instead stick to the classic explanation that Joffrey did it, based on the incrimination of Joffrey via the nonsensical logic of a drunk Tyrion. But for me, Joffrey being the culprit always failed to answer 2 basic questions: 1) Why arm the assassin at all, let alone with a fancy dagger, and 2) Why/how was specifically Littlefinger's dagger chosen? Most people waive this aside, saying that it is simply a contrived coincidence that GRRM included because it was necessary for the plot of AGOT. I think, however, that Bloodraven planting the dagger and killing King Robert to help start the Wot5K makes infinitely more sense, especially because that would make the Wot5K a perfect parallel to the plot of And Seven Times Never Kill Man, the GRRM story that is the most similar on its face to asoiaf, with direct analogues for the COTF, the weirwoods, and the humans who took their land and cut down the weirwoods.

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Robb naming Cat as his heir is absurdly illogical, is not supported by the text - and in fact contradicts the text -

This is your opinion. My OP was clearly referencing quotes from the text as the basis for the theory.

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

- and all evidence you've used to support this theory relies on some unfounded supposition that Robb is feigning ignorance, in order to set an unnecessary trap.

It is not an "unfounded supposition". I am basing the idea that Robb on was feigning ignorance on the clues that 1) Robb had purportedly sprung a kingly trap, so we should see some sort of trap happening 2) Robb should have already known what castle they were at as he is monitoring the daily progress of a massive army in the midst of a war, and 3) Cat's responses were all completely predictable, and the line "I had hoped you would support my choice" seems incredibly naive of Robb considering Cat's attitude toward Jon. She never even said Jon's name for Robb's entire life at WF. Did he really expect her to support naming Jon heir to WF?

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Why would he need to trap Cat into becoming the most powerful person in the North? That just doesn't make any sense at all. Being named heir would give Cat the power to do whatever she wished, and insure that Jon would never have the opportunity to inherit Winterfell - something she is vehemently against. Why wouldn't she jump at this opportunity, instead of having to be manipulated into accepting it?

Cat wouldn't jump at the opportunity because she has been emotionally shattered and is exhausted, she (wrongly) believes that everyone is super pissed at her over releasing Jaime, and she thinks some of the sexist lords view her negatively as a woman and a mother and weak. But as you pointed out, she was vehemently against Jon inheriting WF, and so Robb crafts the perfect trap to overcome these obstacles. He threatens to name Jon as his heir, then gets every Lord traveling with them to support his real choice of Cat, and finally he names Cat as his heir in front of all the Lords there, proving to Cat that she has no reasonable choice but to accept and support the decision.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

7 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Mmmm.

Just recently I read this chapter on my third rereading of ACOK.

How do you interpret these texts in terms of an inheritance crisis?

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

 

I interpret it as being a perfect comparison to the situation Cat will be in, and it was certainly not the equivalent of the "chaos" left behind by Balon, which is the crisis example Robb used when declaring his will.

Lady Donella inherited Hornwood with no issues or questions of the inheritance arising. No one else claimed Hornwood. Everyone simply saw an opportunity to claim Hornwood through its new owner, Lady Donella. And so her liege lord was under political pressure to name a new heir to Hornwood, either via bastard legitimization (analogous to Jon) or by marrying Lady Donella to a new husband (analogous to Cat). Hornwood blood wasn't even a huge deal apparently. Luwin says that Roose Bolton will likely try to take the lands himself even though he has no direct blood ties to House Hornwood, and Wyman Manderly proposes to marry her himself, even though he was not among the Houses listed by Luwin who have Hornwood blood via the female line.

And Lady Donella probably would have been fine in either scenario. She only died because Ramsey is a psychopath who opportunistically kidnapped her on the road back home from WF. By contrast, House Greyjoy did suffer an inheritance crisis. Theon, the presumed heir, was a prisoner whose exact status was unknown, and they were in the middle of waging a war with Balon having named no alternative heir. Clearly, by normal Westeros laws, Asha should be the new ruler of Pyke, but there are 2 big problems: 1) Asha is a woman, and the Ironborn have never had a woman ruler, and 2) many of the Ironborn wish to wage war at the moment to improve their economic situations with plunder and land, but House Harlaw ((her mother's house and primary source of political support) is the de facto leader of the peace faction of the Ironborn, that is the houses who favor peace and trade (and reading books!) and are tolerant of the Faith and of women ruling. And thus... chaos ensued.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

It really is a sign of how starved we are for good topics right now that this thread is getting any play at all. 

This theory is sub-fanfic bad. Points for close reading! But still. This isn't a high school short story assignment. 

Um... I'm pretty sure this thread is getting play because it is fucking awesome   

Thank you for the points for reading closely, I will add them to my current score .

I would ask to to articulate why you think the theory is "sub-fanfic" bad, but I am reasonably certain you would just repeat silly points that other people have already made in this thread and that I have already responded to with nigh unassailable logic.  

No offense, but I am going to assume that I have spent a good deal more time thinking about asoiaf than you have. I am not insulting you, just giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you have a life of some sort, unlike me . And obviously time spent thinking about asoiaf does not necessarily produce non-tinfoil ideas. However, to quote the President of the United States: trust me, I'm like a smart person.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

I may have been a little harsh earlier. I was feeling fighty this morning. Sometimes I'm an asshole, but I'm not 100% a dick. 

Beyond the objections people have raised, I object on story grounds. I just don't see how it would help make the plot more interesting. I think it would be a weird non-sequiteur and lead to a lot of head scratching and cringing. But you're welcome to your weird opinions. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

52 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again? Is there anything Bloodraven didn't do?

Ahem... please see the statement below my name  

But in all seriousness, I think the weirnet/Old Gods/Bloodraven is directly or indirectly responsible for every major event in the plot, basically because I think the Old Gods are purposefully propping up Jon and Dany to be "savior" figures and wage an unjust war against the Others. And since Jon and Dany both becoming saviors/military leaders will be effectively a confluence of all the major events in the story so far, that would necessitate that the Old Gods are either causing or planning around everything we have witnessed in the story so far, going at least as far back as the rebellion and the births of Jon and Dany, and maybe even long before that.

And yes, GRRM is writing a story primarily about the human heart in conflict with itself as he has said, but the weirnet has manipulated events so that the choices available to characters have been contrived. For instance, Ned decides not to make peace with the Lannisters, ultimately because of the attempt on Bran's life. This was a beautiful moral dilemma that we, the readers, got to see played out in Ned's heart in AGOT, but the whole situation was contrived from its outset, and the weirnet/Bloodraven was able to get the war they wanted by planting the dagger and killing the king.

I think the goal of the weirnet is to finally conquer free will by gaining the power to skinchange humans, via training Bran to have said power and then absorbing Bran into the weirnet. Ultimately, I theorize that the weirnet will finally "lose" the game and probably be destroyed when Bran makes the decision to be crippled and/or die for the sake of those he loves, and he will choose to destroy the weirnet instead of joining it. And I think Arya may help. The "souls" inside the weirnet may in fact be in a sort of living Hell for all we know, and this would be the ultimate target for the Faceless Men. Additionally, there is evidence that the FM have been working for the fAegon cause (it seems they have gold dragons minted with the likeness of Daemon Blackfyre), and Jaqen's original mission may have been to travel north of the Wall with Rorge and Biter to track and kill Bloodraven, the arch rival of Bittersteel (that's admittedly much more speculative). Anyways, I think the purpose of Chekov's wolf pack may be for all the wolves to run around through the various tunnel and cave networks of Westeros and devour the living greenseers hooked into the weirnet like BR.

[kissdbyfire]

@40 Thousand Skeletons, and look at what's written under my name!

I need time to reply to your last post and I have none now. But I'll get back to it tomorrow. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

I may have been a little harsh earlier. I was feeling fighty this morning. Sometimes I'm an asshole, but I'm not 100% a dick. 

 

11 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Beyond the objections people have raised, I object on story grounds. I just don't see how it would help make the plot more interesting. I think it would be a weird non-sequiteur and lead to a lot of head scratching and cringing. But you're welcome to your weird opinions. 

I'm sorry, but this is just a silly argument that I see people make constantly (especially when arguing against me). You are 1) assuming that Robb naming Jon as heir is in fact the plot event though you don't actually know that and 2) subjectively considering the alternative theory to be a less interesting plot, even without yet knowing the full details of said plot. The validity of a theory is not dependent on whether or not you think it would make the story interesting. The story is what it is. Many of the theories I think are true I happen to think would make the story "more interesting" than the alternative theories that most people subscribe to, but most people vehemently disagree with me as "interest level" is a subjective metric.

I could throw the exact same nonsense argument right back at you: How does naming Jon heir make the plot "more interesting"?

You can argue that it would be a weird non sequitur, but I disagree. I think it fits in perfectly with the overall vibe of ultra-feminism GRRM has injected into the story. And it has foreshadowing and hints for it in the text, as have been discussed in this thread. The only thing really weird about it that everyone seems uncomfortable with is the fact that Robb would be effectively ending the Stark bloodline. But frankly, I think most readers care infinitely more about the Stark bloodline than Robb does.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons, and look at what's written under my name!

I need time to reply to your last post and I have none now. But I'll get back to it tomorrow. 

You only think it was your choice to be Bloodraven's #1 groupie. In actuality, he has been sending you dreams and manipulating you into being his groupie with the hopes of getting you to perform blood sacrifices later in life. In fact, Bloodraven was responsible for your parents meeting and you being born in the first place just so he could use you for this purpose!  

looking forward to your response  

[LordScattergood10]

This just doesn't make any sense. She has no right to winterfell and the northern lords would never accept her as their liege; even before the events of wot5k. After all the mistakes she's made and literally being a traitor she just wouldn't work. Realistically Jon was and is the only option. Catelyn just doesn't like it because of her own EXTREMELY selfish reasons. It's the same reasons she refused to let ned let jon stay at winterfell in the beginning of the story just because he's not her son despite that he's her children's brother. The only hard part is getting him out of the nights watch but I bet it wouldn't be as hard as we think.

[The Mother of The Others]

I'm hard!    Also,  the tree and dragon bonding magics are only made better by requiring living people to off themselves very strangely to get the ball rolling.   Plug a greenseer into the underroots of each weir, feed it blood in order to keep the human side of the hybrid tree alive independently (keep the tree woke and aware in its own right in addition to merely serving as extra weirnet eyes for Bloodraven.  On the dragon side, people were magically sublimated into the dragons to sow the dna connection with targaryen stock, because magic gene fusion yo.  Now dragons want to walk as humans (melisandre's ilk) and humans want to cross over into dragonform (nutty targs who are feeling pulled down the path of crossed streams between species).   There is a way to cross over.   Or to dance upon the crossroads, as Daenerys did when she remained Unburnt.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said:

I'm hard!    Also,  the tree and dragon bonding magics are only made better by requiring living people to off themselves very strangely to get the ball rolling.   Plug a greenseer into the underroots of each weir, feed it blood in order to keep the human side of the hybrid tree alive independently (keep the tree woke and aware in its own right in addition to merely serving as extra weirnet eyes for Bloodraven.  On the dragon side, people were magically sublimated into the dragons to sow the dna connection with targaryen stock, because magic gene fusion yo.  Now dragons want to walk as humans (melisandre's ilk) and humans want to cross over into dragonform (nutty targs who are feeling pulled down the path of crossed streams between species).   There is a way to cross over.   Or to dance upon the crossroads, as Daenerys did when she remained Unburnt.

LOL I enjoyed reading this very much  

I like the concept of magic dragon-people gene fusion via sublimation. That sounds like something GRRM would write. I certainly don't think any magic or sci-fi concept in asoiaf will exceed the craziness of Nightflyers, including potential dragon gene sublimation.  

Also, while we are getting hard talking about tree-people, feel free to check out this thread I posted about the Undying, copy-pasted from my much larger grand theory.

Summary: I think the Undying are also tree people and that them getting burned to death was just another vision and wasn't real. Why don't the Undying leave the HOTU? Why is the HOTU an ancient windowless building in the middle of a grove of magic trees? What is shade of the evening made of? Why show Dany manipulative visions of the past and future if they are just going to capture her and never let her leave? Why didn't they have a fire extinguisher on standby to be ready for, you know, that dragon they invited into their fucking house? And most importantly, why was Dany still experiencing visions (of the floor moving) after Drogon purportedly killed the Undying? Answers: They can't leave because they are tree-people like Bloodraven. The HOTU was built as a sort of above-ground cave, keeping all the tree people in darkness. The HOTU is surrounded by magic trees because the roots of those trees are attached to the Undying ones inside the house. Shade of the evening is magic tree-people blood! Just like weirwood paste is magic tree-people blood! That's why they have the exact same effect (Bran and Dany have extremely similar experiences on their respective drug trips). They showed Dany those visions because they wanted her to escape. The whole thing was just another ruse, like Robb trapping Cat into being his heir. They did have a fire extinguisher at the ready and they are fine! And Dany thought the floor was moving because the Undying were still perfectly fine, and they sent her a vision of the floor moving as she tried to escape. Tada! That explanation is, again, infinitely more satisfying than what everyone else thinks happened, in my ultra-humble opinion.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, LordScattergood10 said:

This just doesn't make any sense.

sigh... OK let's take it point by point then  

1 hour ago, LordScattergood10 said:

She has no right to winterfell

She would have as much right as anyone else alive (not including the people pretending to be dead, i.e. Bran, Rickon, and Arya), other than maybe Sansa who they are specifically keeping from getting WF because of her marriage to Tyrion. Recall that when Lord Hornwood died, Lady Donella (Manderly) Hornwood took control of castle Hornwood. The same thing happened with Lady Barbrey (Ryswell) Dustin. And she definitely has a right to WF if King Robb named her his heir.

1 hour ago, LordScattergood10 said:

and the northern lords would never accept her as their liege; even before the events of wot5k. After all the mistakes she's made and literally being a traitor she just wouldn't work. Realistically Jon was and is the only option.

Why wouldn't the northern lords accept her as their liege? Do you have some logic for this? Quotes from the text to back it up? What mistakes has she made that would disqualify her from ruling the north? The only person who was even visibly angry that she released Jaime was Rickard Karstark, and that's because Jaime personally killed his sons, and he had a ridiculous notion in his head that he would at some point be given an opportunity for vengeance. Cat was definitely an option for Robb.

2 hours ago, LordScattergood10 said:

Catelyn just doesn't like it because of her own EXTREMELY selfish reasons. It's the same reasons she refused to let ned let jon stay at winterfell in the beginning of the story just because he's not her son despite that he's her children's brother.

I'm sensing some Cat hatred here . Cut her some slack, she is a human being. She is not EXTREMELY selfish I don't think. But Cat is not only against it because of selfish reasons, as you say. She also brings up the important points that Jon is a bastard and in the NW and that Jon's children could go to war with Robb's over WF some day, totally legit reasons to be against it. Maybe she was being disingenuous and doesn't actually care about those things and is being purely selfish, but I doubt it.

2 hours ago, LordScattergood10 said:

The only hard part is getting him out of the nights watch but I bet it wouldn't be as hard as we think.

I think the harder part would actually be getting everyone to accept a bastard oathbreaker as their king.

 

[Makk]

As I gather this whole premise is basically shaped around the use of word "trap".

When exactly do you believe he told her? The start of the relevant conversation which you seem to have omitted for some reason, is as follows...

Quote

 

She tensed. "Do you have some part in this for me?"

"Your part is to stay safe. Our journey through the Neck will be dangerous, and naught but battle awaits us in the north. But Lord Mallister has kindly offered to keep you safe at Seagard until the war is done. You will be comfortable there, I know."

Is this my punishment for opposing him about Jon Snow? Or for being a woman, and worse, a mother? It took her a moment to realize that they were all watching her. They had known, she realized. Catelyn should not have been surprised. She had won no friends by freeing the Kingslayer, and more than once she had heard the Greatjon say that women had no place on a battlefield.

"You would make me a prisoner," she said.

"An honored guest," Lord Jason insisted.

Catelyn turned to her son. "I mean no offense to Lord Jason," she said stiffly, "but if I cannot continue on with you, I would sooner return to Riverrun."

 

I think (at least hope) you can agree that at this point she does not believe that Robb has named her his heir.
 

Quote

 

"I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command." Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. "One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I've thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision."

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her.

 

The only possible time GRRM could have hidden some special detail (and this applies for Arya as well) would be after he "picked up a sheet of paper" but before the next paragraph. I think it would be extremely misleading to the reader to hide it in such a manner, when details like this are hidden, they are done in a much cleverer fashion. And in that case her previous and next thoughts would not gel... 

Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled.

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her.

She should be some combination of completely shocked, staggered, bewildered and relieved. But not defeated.

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

I object on story grounds. I just don't see how it would help make the plot more interesting. I think it would be a weird non-sequiteur and lead to a lot of head scratching and cringing. But you're welcome to your weird opinions. 

I don't think so.  If that's what GRRM decides to do, everyone will nod sagely and make excuses for him, perhaps even talk about the daring 'subversion of some tropes,' rather than criticize the shoddy writing.

[Darkstream]

17 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well... I appreciate your honesty, so I will respond respectfully. This is absolutely not the driving factor behind my theories. I am not rolling the dice against the odds. I am simply obsessed with figuring out what is going on in asoiaf, because I consider it to be the most fun and entertaining puzzle out of every puzzle/mental challenge in my life, and it is a puzzle with an expiration date, because theoretically TWOW and ADOS will be released some day and much of my fun will be over. And my quest for answers has led my conclusions about the story to change drastically over the past couple years. In particular, reading other stories by GRRM from his Thousand Worlds universe completely shattered my previously held notions about asoiaf, namely And Seven Times Never Kill Man, Men of Greywater Station, and Nightflyers. As much as people on the forum believe otherwise, I never reach a conclusion because it is what I "want" to happen in the story. Even after reading the books 3 times, I still wanted Aegon to be real. But I think he is fake because of the evidence.

Well, I appreciate the respectful response, and I hope I didn't come off as disrespectful myself, that was not my intent. It's just that some of your ideas have given me that impression in the past, and I've refrained from commenting about it, but seeing as you sort of brought it up yourself...well, it seemed like a fair accusation to make.

Although we don't see eye to eye on many interpretations of the text, I do find your thoughts interesting, and I have no ill will towards you, or your theories, so I'm happy to take your word on it.

Most of what I disagree with you on has already been brought up, so I won't reiterate the same arguments.

However, one thing that I don't believe has been discussed is Rob's ignorance in regards to the castle they were at - which really can't be classified as a castle, to be fair. I really don't find it peculiar that he wouldn't know of it. Oldstones is an ancient ruins, in the middle of nowhere, with barely anything left of it. Cat even mentions that the only reason she is familiar with it, is because she remembers camping there with her father on their way to Seagard when she was a child. I don't believe that it would be on any modern maps that Robb, or his men would be using, or that many people would even know of it. Even the real name is lost to time, Oldstones is just the name the local smallfolk have given to the remnants of the castle, which are just foundations overgrown with vegetation. It's likely that this was not a planned destination of Robb and his army, just somewhere they figured was a good place to make camp once they came upon it.

Also, as I believe was already brought up, and if you have responded to this I apologize as I must have missed it, but I fail to see what the literary point of this would be. What could this possibly add to the story? As I see it, not only does it not add to the story, but it would take away from it. If this were to be true, it would just seem like a pointless dead end in the grand scheme of the story GRRM is telling, and that's not what I've come to expect from such a meticulous and talented writer, who doesn't waste any words on things that don't matter.

Oh, and should you hit the jackpot, and it turns out that you are right, please feel free to gloat in my face, and I will gladly bow down to your genius. I'll have one of these  all ready and cued up just for you.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

57 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't think so.  If that's what GRRM decides to do, everyone will nod sagely and make excuses for him, perhaps even talk about the daring 'subversion of some tropes,' rather than criticize the shoddy writing.

LOL Yeah, you have it exact!

Wise and funny to boot. 

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm sorry, but this is just a silly argument that I see people make constantly (especially when arguing against me). You are 1) assuming that Robb naming Jon as heir is in fact the plot event though you don't actually know that and 2) subjectively considering the alternative theory to be a less interesting plot, even without yet knowing the full details of said plot. The validity of a theory is not dependent on whether or not you think it would make the story interesting. The story is what it is. Many of the theories I think are true I happen to think would make the story "more interesting" than the alternative theories that most people subscribe to, but most people vehemently disagree with me as "interest level" is a subjective metric.

*pat on the head*