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Cat is definitely the heir named in Robb's will


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5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

...and the line "I had hoped you would support my choice" seems incredibly naive of Robb considering Cat's attitude toward Jon. She never even said Jon's name for Robb's entire life at WF. Did he really expect her to support naming Jon heir to WF?

Well, considering the circumstances, I don't think that is too far fetched for him to hope for. Cat's main fear of Jon was of him challenging the rights of her own children. As far as she knows, that is no longer a viable threat. Unless she fears that he would steal the tombs reserved for them in the crypts of Winterfell, what would her perceived threat from Jon be?

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10 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

what would her perceived threat of Jon be?

She doesn't fear Jon so much as she fears his mother -- the one Ned 'loved fiercely' --  'winning'.  That's why she feels 'defeated.'  Robb doesn't understand how deep it goes.  When she looks at Jon, she sees 'the other woman'; when he looks at Jon, he sees his brother, and the leader of his pack.

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52 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

She doesn't fear Jon so much as she fears his mother -- the one Ned 'loved fiercely' --  'winning'.  That's why she feels 'defeated.'  Robb doesn't understand how deep it goes.  When she looks at Jon, she sees 'the other woman'; when he looks at Jon, he sees his brother, and the leader of his pack.

Sure, I can entertain that as the mind set of Cat, and as a threat to her pride. However, I don't think that can be used as a means to label Robb as being naive for hoping that she will accept Jon as his heir. At this point, as far as they know, he is the only other remaining person of Stark blood alive, and I think it would be reasonable of Robb to think she might see the validity in his decision, considering the circumstances - however much she might despise it. 

And as you say, he doesn't understand how deep it goes with her, and I wouldn't expect him to know.

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16 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:
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14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

---The only consequence for Lady Hornwood as far as the succession was concerned was that a new heir be named, either via legitimization of a bastard (similar to Jon) or via Donella taking a new husband with blood ties to House Hornwood, which would be the same thing as Cat inheriting Winterfell and naming a new husband who has some sort of blood tie to House Stark.

 

And yet, this possibility, that of having a distant cousin inherit Winterfell, is one Robb rejects in the conversation with Cat at Tristifer’s sepulcher

 

Being killed by Ramsey was a direct consequence of Ramsey being a psychopath and Donella not taking proper precautions to protect herself from said psychopath kidnapping her on the road on her way back from the Harvest Festival..... At this point in time (the King Tristifer convo), Robb has already decided on Cat being his heir, and this is the first step in trapping her into supporting the decision. ....

 

Yet the text contradicts this notion“Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. ”

 

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6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I interpret it as being a perfect comparison to the situation Cat will be in, and it was certainly not the equivalent of the "chaos" left behind by Balon, which is the crisis example Robb used when declaring his will.

Lady Donella inherited Hornwood with no issues or questions of the inheritance arising. No one else claimed Hornwood. Everyone simply saw an opportunity to claim Hornwood through its new owner, Lady Donella. And so her liege lord was under political pressure to name a new heir to Hornwood, either via bastard legitimization (analogous to Jon) or by marrying Lady Donella to a new husband (analogous to Cat). Hornwood blood wasn't even a huge deal apparently. Luwin says that Roose Bolton will likely try to take the lands himself even though he has no direct blood ties to House Hornwood, and Wyman Manderly proposes to marry her himself, even though he was not among the Houses listed by Luwin who have Hornwood blood via the female line.

And Lady Donella probably would have been fine in either scenario. She only died because Ramsey is a psychopath who opportunistically kidnapped her on the road back home from WF. ...

 

An uncertain/unsettled succession of the House Hornwood legacy gives Ramsey the opening to seize Lady Donella and ursurp the Hornwood lands and power, if I've understood the situation properly.

 

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6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

At this point in time (the King Tristifer convo), Robb has already decided on Cat being his heir, and this is the first step in trapping her into supporting the decision. ....

 

I understand that during the conversation at Tristifer's sepulcher, Robb does exactly the opposite

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"Young, and a king," he said. "A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her." His mouth tightened. "To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north."

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

"Mother." There was a sharpness in Robb's tone. "You forget. My father had four sons."

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

"Jon's more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell."

"Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life."

"So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows."

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit."

"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

"Jon would never harm a son of mine."

"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."

"So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . ."

". . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father's head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya's gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they'll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice."

"I cannot," she said. "In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it."

 

 

The bolded part seems clear to me.

How do you read it?

 

 

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Robb doesn't need Catelyn's approval or support to name Jon heir. He can just do it. But if Robb dies and Catelyn is very vocal in her objections to Jon as heir, and she would be very vocal, then she could potentially really damage Jon.

If Robb has commanded her to remarry as the text hints, then her lack of support of Jon as the King in the North would not be as a Tully-Stark, it would likely be as a Tully-Mallister. Then Catelyn’s opinion of Jon as Robb's heir will hold as much weight as the wife of any other Lord so long as her blood is not an option as heir.

Robb legitimized Jon and if he in fact ordered Catelyn to choose a new husband, he is de-legitimizing her as a Stark. She’ll always be Robb’s mother, but Robb can see to it that she is no longer part of his court or even part of the Stark family. If he can’t get her to support Jon—truly support him—then he can make her opinion just not matter by having her no longer be a Stark.

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10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Robb doesn't need Catelyn's approval or support to name Jon heir. He can just do it. But if Robb dies and Catelyn is very vocal in her objections to Jon as heir, and she would be very vocal, then she could potentially really damage Jon.

If Robb has commanded her to remarry as the text hints, then her lack of support of Jon as the King in the North would not be as a Tully-Stark, it would likely be as a Tully-Mallister. Then Catelyn’s opinion of Jon as Robb's heir will hold as much weight as the wife of any other Lord so long as her blood is not an option as heir.

Robb legitimized Jon and if he in fact ordered Catelyn to choose a new husband, he is de-legitimizing her as a Stark. She’ll always be Robb’s mother, but Robb can see to it that she is no longer part of his court or even part of the Stark family. If he can’t get her to support Jon—truly support him—then he can make her opinion just not matter by having her no longer be a Stark.

Clever! Tywin tries to do the same thing in a way by trying to marry Cersei off. Tywin wants her gone from KL, the court and away from Tommen, effectively making room for Margaery to be the Queen, and not have a Queen-dowager breathing down her neck.

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30 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Robb doesn't need Catelyn's approval or support to name Jon heir. He can just do it. But if Robb dies and Catelyn is very vocal in her objections to Jon as heir, and she would be very vocal, then she could potentially really damage Jon.

If Robb has commanded her to remarry as the text hints, then her lack of support of Jon as the King in the North would not be as a Tully-Stark, it would likely be as a Tully-Mallister. Then Catelyn’s opinion of Jon as Robb's heir will hold as much weight as the wife of any other Lord so long as her blood is not an option as heir.

Robb legitimized Jon and if he in fact ordered Catelyn to choose a new husband, he is de-legitimizing her as a Stark. She’ll always be Robb’s mother, but Robb can see to it that she is no longer part of his court or even part of the Stark family. If he can’t get her to support Jon—truly support him—then he can make her opinion just not matter by having her no longer be a Stark.

 

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Clever! Tywin tries to do the same thing in a way by trying to marry Cersei off. Tywin wants her gone from KL, the court and away from Tommen, effectively making room for Margaery to be the Queen, and not have a Queen-dowager breathing down her neck.

Ah, that's a point- Robb is getting Cat out of his hair by the same ploy Tywin used on Cersei.

Sounds right.

It makes more sense than naming her heir, given how explicit Robb is when talking to Cat at Tristifer's sepulcher.

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 Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice."

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Robb doesn't need Catelyn's approval or support to name Jon heir. He can just do it. But if Robb dies and Catelyn is very vocal in her objections to Jon as heir, and she would be very vocal, then she could potentially really damage Jon.

If Robb has commanded her to remarry as the text hints, then her lack of support of Jon as the King in the North would not be as a Tully-Stark, it would likely be as a Tully-Mallister. Then Catelyn’s opinion of Jon as Robb's heir will hold as much weight as the wife of any other Lord so long as her blood is not an option as heir.

Robb legitimized Jon and if he in fact ordered Catelyn to choose a new husband, he is de-legitimizing her as a Stark. She’ll always be Robb’s mother, but Robb can see to it that she is no longer part of his court or even part of the Stark family. If he can’t get her to support Jon—truly support him—then he can make her opinion just not matter by having her no longer be a Stark.

Where are these hints (or hint)?

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21 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I could throw the exact same nonsense argument right back at you: How does naming Jon heir make the plot "more interesting"?

Because he's not dead. OK, maybe he is, and maybe Cat technically isn't, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at here.

The Northerners are not going to accept, or even consider for a second, an undead zombie as their ruler. When Robb's will is revealed, what is it going to amount to if it was Cat named as the heir? Nothing. That will be the end of it, and it will be as if Robb never did name an heir. It is a dead end.

We all know that this is not the end of Jon's story. He is not staying dead, if indeed he is dead, and he isn't going to be some decomposed undead zombie in the same sense as Lady Stoneheart is. When Robb's will is revealed, and it names Jon his heir, sure he may not be accepted by everyone, but there will be some who do accept him, and it will result in either a decision for him to make, and/or any number of conflicts and drama to be dealt with, that will and can further the plot, and add something to the story.

I agree that the interest level concerning this is subjective, and some might like, and some might not like Jon being named the heir, but as far as Cat is concerned, if she is the heir, there really is no story there for the readers to express their subjective opinions about.

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13 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Honestly, this seems to be the driving factor behind all of the theories I've seen you put forth. I get the impression that you are just rolling the dice against the odds, in the hopes that you fluke out, making you look like a genius.

Seems about right.

Like playing a lottery, picking the numbers according to patented, scientific system powered by astrology and voodoo - and not only that, but also arguing to the bitter end and then some how well-founded the system really is.

And if he hits the jackpot - won't he look a certifiable genius, and all us detractors - complete fools? ;)

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Where are these hints (or hint)?

I'm amused to have a good reason to reread this intriguing chapter.

There is a great deal of meat in it, indeed and on many subjects.

 

But to the point. Hints of a remarriage for Cat?

A fanciful reader could see a bit of build-up to a Catelyn remarriage here

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Lord Jason Mallister caught up with them amidst the bogs of Hag's Mire. There was more than an hour of daylight remaining when he rode up with his column, but Robb called a halt at once, and Ser Raynald Westerling came to escort Catelyn to the king's tent. She found her son seated beside a brazier, a map across his lap. Grey Wind slept at his feet. The Greatjon was with him, along with Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Edmure, and a man that Catelyn did not know, a fleshy balding man with a cringing look to him. No lordling, this one, she knew the moment she laid eyes on the stranger. Not even a warrior.

Jason Mallister rose to offer Catelyn his seat. His hair had almost as much white in it as brown, but the Lord of Seagard was still a handsome man; tall and lean, with a chiseled clean-shaven face, high cheekbones, and fierce blue-grey eyes. "Lady Stark, it is ever a pleasure. I bring good tidings, I hope."

"We are in sore need of some, my lord." She sat, listening to the rain patter down noisily against the canvas overhead.

Not very much, I grant you.

Let's read on. Robb says:

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Your part is to stay safe. Our journey through the Neck will be dangerous, and naught but battle awaits us in the north. But Lord Mallister has kindly offered to keep you safe at Seagard until the war is done. You will be comfortable there, I know."

Is it spinning too fine to see this as something he and Lord Mallister have pacted before Cat enters the tent?

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Galbart Glover spoke up before she said a word. "My lady, His Grace is wise. It's best you do not come with us."

"Seagard will be brightened by your presence, Lady Catelyn," said Lord Jason Mallister.

"You would make me a prisoner," she said.

"An honored guest," Lord Jason insisted.

Catelyn turned to her son. "I mean no offense to Lord Jason," she said stiffly, "but if I cannot continue on with you, I would sooner return to Riverrun."

It's clear Cat had no previous warning of this and rebels against the decisions .

I can't blame her.

Are these hints of a re-marriage plan?

Possibly not. They do hint Robb wants Cat far away and under a responsible eye.

Seagard sounds like a charming place and is  one she knows well.

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Catelyn Tully, Lysa Tully, and Petyr Baelish visited Seagard often in their youth, camping at Oldstones on the way there with Lord Hoster Tully.[5] 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Seagard#cite_note-Rasos45.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-4

 

Alas, Seagard would not haven proven a haven for Robb's lady mother- 

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Lord Jason Mallister surrendered Seagard and swore fealty to the Iron Throne only when Black Walder threatened to hang the captured Patrek Mallister if his father refused to surrender

In any case, the Red Wedding changed all those possible futures.

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6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Where are these hints (or hint)?

@Prof. Cecily covered a lot of it, but there's more. It's no proof but it just adds up to form a picture which passes the logic test.

On my first read, I expected Cat and Ned to have more children because it was clearly stated that Catelyn wanted more children, that she was young enough for more children, and still beautiful. It felt like it was going somewhere.

Later in AGOT Catelyn IV, it seemed that Catelyn maybe had a bit of a crush on Jason as she studies him boldly despite the risk of getting caught and her description is flattering. That Jason’s gifts were lavish could mean that Jason was intrigued by Cat or that he was ambitious. It’s possible that he was just generous, but I don’t see anything about generosity elsewhere. Also, maybe some Stoneheart foreshadowing here with the hood and not being recognized perhaps hinting they’ll pass each other by (romantically) because Catelyn is fated to wear a hood.

In ASOS Catelyn V, she again studies Jason boldly and calls him handsome. With two instances of Cat studying Jason and finding him attractive, I’m speculating that Robb has noticed that Catelyn was soft on Jason. Jason may have been soft on Catelyn in turn given how he speaks to her, but maybe he was sucking up. I’m not sure.

It was Jason Mallister who offered to keep her at Seagard, not Robb asking. The young king with an heir problem and problems conceiving has a mother who is still young enough for more children, very fertile, and very attractive. No doubt a lot of widower subjects of Robb have been inquiring about Catelyn hoping to make a very lucrative match. Hoster is dying, Edmure was just now getting married, the Blackfish will have no children, and Lysa is another matter. With Cat’s children believed dead or Lannisters, Cat is a few timely deaths away from a claim to Riverrun.

AGOT Catelyn IV

They followed the sounds around a lazy bend of the road and saw them; a column of armed men noisily fording a swollen stream. Catelyn reined up to let them pass. The banner in the hand of the foremost rider hung sodden and limp, but the guardsmen wore indigo cloaks and on their shoulders flew the silver eagle of Seagard. "Mallisters," Ser Rodrik whispered to her, as if she had not known. "My lady, best pull up your hood."

Catelyn made no move. Lord Jason Mallister himself rode with them, surrounded by his knights, his son Patrek by his side and their squires close behind. They were riding for King's Landing and the Hand's tourney, she knew. For the past week, the travelers had been thick as flies upon the kingsroad; knights and freeriders, singers with their harps and drums, heavy wagons laden with hops or corn or casks of honey, traders and craftsmen and whores, and all of them moving south.

Catelyn made no move. Lord Jason Mallister himself rode with them, surrounded by his knights, his son Patrek by his side and their squires close behind. They were riding for King's Landing and the Hand's tourney, she knew. For the past week, the travelers had been thick as flies upon the kingsroad; knights and freeriders, singers with their harps and drums, heavy wagons laden with hops or corn or casks of honey, traders and craftsmen and whores, and all of them moving south.

She studied Lord Jason boldly. The last time she had seen him he had been jesting with her uncle at her wedding feast; the Mallisters stood bannermen to the Tullys, and his gifts had been lavish. His brown hair was salted with white now, his face chiseled gaunt by time, yet the years had not touched his pride. He rode like a man who feared nothing. Catelyn envied him that; she had come to fear so much. As the riders passed, Lord Jason nodded a curt greeting, but it was only a high lord's courtesy to strangers chance met on the road. There was no recognition in those fierce eyes, and his son did not even waste a look.

"He did not know you," Ser Rodrik said after, wondering.

"He saw a pair of mud-spattered travelers by the side of the road, wet and tired. It would never occur to him to suspect that one of them was the daughter of his liege lord. I think we shall be safe enough at the inn, Ser Rodrik."

ACOK Catelyn I

It had been at Edmure's insistence that Robb had given the river lords leave to depart after his crowning, each to defend his own lands. Ser Marq Piper and Lord Karyl Vance had been the first to go. Lord Jonos Bracken had followed, vowing to reclaim the burnt shell of his castle and bury his dead, and now Lord Jason Mallister had announced his intent to return to his seat at Seagard, still mercifully untouched by the fighting.

ASOS Catelyn V

Lord Jason Mallister caught up with them amidst the bogs of Hag's Mire. There was more than an hour of daylight remaining when he rode up with his column, but Robb called a halt at once, and Ser Raynald Westerling came to escort Catelyn to the king's tent. She found her son seated beside a brazier, a map across his lap. Grey Wind slept at his feet. The Greatjon was with him, along with Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Edmure, and a man that Catelyn did not know, a fleshy balding man with a cringing look to him. No lordling, this one, she knew the moment she laid eyes on the stranger. Not even a warrior.

Jason Mallister rose to offer Catelyn his seat. His hair had almost as much white in it as brown, but the Lord of Seagard was still a handsome man; tall and lean, with a chiseled clean-shaven face, high cheekbones, and fierce blue-grey eyes. "Lady Stark, it is ever a pleasure. I bring good tidings, I hope."

"Your part is to stay safe. Our journey through the Neck will be dangerous, and naught but battle awaits us in the north. But Lord Mallister has kindly offered to keep you safe at Seagard until the war is done. You will be comfortable there, I know."

...

"Seagard will be brightened by your presence, Lady Catelyn," said Lord Jason Mallister.

"You would make me a prisoner," she said.

"An honored guest," Lord Jason insisted.

 

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Just now, Prof. Cecily said:

It's a beautifully written little subplot, isn't it?

I limited myself to ASOS, Catelyn V for the purposes of the discussion and was happy to those other references, @Lollygag.

So subtle, and yet all so sad.

That was my take. I think Jason may be a bit ambitious, but with the way Jason is described and how Cat sees him, I took this as a missed opportunity for Catelyn to find a measure of happiness again.

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Just now, Lollygag said:

That was my take. I think Jason may be a bit ambitious, but with the way Jason is described and how Cat sees him, I took this as a missed opportunity for Catelyn to find a measure of happiness again.

Yeah, such a pity...

- Back to the OP. Sorry, I'm afraid I'm losing track as the debate is going in circles, so once again: how exactly does naming Cat Robb's heir maintain the Stark bloodline?

 

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Just now, Lollygag said:

That was my take. I think Jason may be a bit ambitious, but with the way Jason is described and how Cat sees him, I took this as a missed opportunity for Catelyn to find a measure of happiness again.

And for Robb, who's tried EVERYTHING to get rid of his mother.

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19 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah, such a pity...

- Back to the OP. Sorry, I'm afraid I'm losing track as the debate is going in circles, so once again: how exactly does naming Cat Robb's heir maintain the Stark bloodline?

 

By leaving her the possibility of marrying Jon and hereby maintaining the purity of the Targaryen, sorry, Stark genes?

 

Seriously, it doesn't. It simply delays the inevitable some years and invites problems.

Imagine a widowed LF riding up to WF.

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6 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Seems about right.

Like playing a lottery, picking the numbers according to patented, scientific system powered by astrology and voodoo - and not only that, but also arguing to the bitter end and then some how well-founded the system really is.

And if he hits the jackpot - won't he look a certifiable genius, and all us detractors - complete fools? ;)

:D I think this translates perfectly.

And it's not like this is an original theory. I mean, there's a youtuber out there who defend all these ridiculous theories - not here, oh no, not where people could actually argue and question and debate. Just a youtube channel, where he can say whatever and ignore detractors, logic or common sense.

I actually think the OP actually may have something going on. At least he tries. It must be said, the theory have the surprise factor in its favor. But that's all. It lacks textual evidence. It leans too much on the internal monologue about "trap". The theory invites us to doubt the actual text, with lots and lots of inferences pulled out of thin air. In the end, it holds no water, and it just isn't convincing enough.

 

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1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

By leaving her the possibility of marrying Jon and hereby maintaining the purity of the Targaryen, sorry, Stark genes?

Now, that would be a twist - Cat marrying Jon! No wonder Robb had to trap her into it, there is no way in seven hells that she would agree to it! :D

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