Cat is definitely the heir named in Robb's will

[kissdbyfire]

@40 Thousand Skeletons, we have endless descriptions of all the clothing they wear at the NW... layers of woolen small clothes, fur, leather, mail. Then we have a little info on the weapons used by the conspirators: knives/daggers. I don't think a knife or a dagger (a short bladed knife) would be long enough to penetrate all the layers of clothing and still cause major damage to vital organs. 

And yes, you assume correctly. So far I have only read parts I & II of your grand theory. A mistake I have every intention of rectifying asap, and then I'll get back to you again!

I also want to second what @The Fattest Leech and others have said: you're a very gracious thread host, and even better, you have an excellent sense of humour! Well done!

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Your argument is so laughable that not even @Dorian Martell's son took me up on my invitation to lambaste you!  

I am sorry I left you waiting. work kinda piled up. 

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

I am sorry I left you waiting

I am used to being kept waiting by you...

By now, I am under no illusions when it comes to your cruel practices, nor your 'love' for poetry!  

 

The fascination of what's difficult 

Has dried the sap out of my veins, and rent 

Spontaneous joy and natural content 

Out of my heart.

--YEATS, from 'The Fascination of What's Difficult'

[The Hidden Dragon]

About Jeyne and the size of her hips, GRRM has said he made a mistake when describing her hips differently through Jaime's POV.  Here is the SSM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/10068.

I think that throws a wrench into the theory of Jeyne possibly pregnant and the descriptions being of two different girls.

 

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

11 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Except what if he was being disingenuous? Then we have direct evidence that it is in his nature and that he can pull off some teenage-level artifice. 

Saying "Maybe if he was" is not evidence. Especially if his entire role as a secondary character was fairly static.
So far, there is no reason to believe he was ever.  His honesty and honor, like that of his father is his failing. It is why he was betrayed and killed. Could he have just banged Jeyne after he took her family castle and then gone back to the fruit of walders loins? Nope. 
He didn't have the wherewithal to see that his own commanders were being disingenuous. Therefore is makes no sense that he would be that way with his mom.  
ravenous reader, There you go 

[kissdbyfire]

36 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

About Jeyne and the size of her hips, GRRM has said he made a mistake when describing her hips differently through Jaime's POV.  Here is the SSM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/10068.

I think that throws a wrench into the theory of Jeyne possibly pregnant and the descriptions being of two different girls.

 

 

 

I thought I had read that somewhere, but then I couldn't find it. Tks for the link!

 

[Prof. Cecily]

Thanks for a most interesting reply and a great link.

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Mostly just what I alluded to there. There isn't any direct evidence of Jeyne literally being pregnant, i.e. morning sickness or someone witnessing a pregnant Jeyne or something along those lines. There are just a bunch of hints in the text. We know that Tywin instructed Lady Sybell to prevent a pregnancy, and she disguised some sort of pregnancy-preventing drug as a fertility aid:

So then the follow up question is: did Jeyne catch on to her mother and stop taking the posset? I think it is at least possible. The big hint that Jeyne was pregnant, and the subject of much controversy, is the difference between Cat's description of Jeyne, and Jaime's description of "Jeyne". Here is Cat's initial impression of Jeyne, and as a bonus, another one of Robb's famous traps in action: 

And then here is the last line of ASOS Catelyn III:

And here is Jaime's description of "Jeyne". Notice that right before he sees "Jeyne" for the first time, he contemplates the Blackfish's escape (the chapter began with the news of his escape, in fact). And generally, this part of the chapter is hilarious if Jeyne has in fact escaped with the Blackfish and makes Jaime look quite foolish:

So basically, the descriptions don't match. Cat twice notes that Jeyne has good hips for bearing children, while Jaime describes "Jeyne's" hips as narrow. And Cat says that Jeyne is "undeniably" pretty, while Jaime only characterizes her as "pretty enough for a child". It seems that this may in fact be Jeyne's younger sister Eleyna, who would probably be 13 at this point and potentially a much better match for Jaime's description. And while Tywin Lannister wouldn't overlook such details, Jaime would.  

And it seems that Eleyna and her mother may be putting on an act to convince Jaime that Eleyna is in fact Jeyne. There is the weird scab on Eleyna's forehead, Sybell goes to slap her during the conversation, and she acts ultra-panicked for some reason at the mention of her possible pregnancy even though her mother confirms she isn't pregnant, and we can see that she isn't pregnant. Later we get Jaime's description of them on the road:

It seems likely that in fact, she only ripped her clothes as part of an act, an act that her mother was in on. Jaime's assumption, like most assumptions made by pov characters, appears to be wrong.  

Here is the PJ vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ1JLlqY7XI&list=PLCsx_OFEYH6v1vu8roFM3MzuU6TT84SpI&index=4#t=01m58s

Well, PJ dismisses the possibility of Robb and the northern lords setting up Catelyn as his heir because the northern lords know that Rickon is alive and are looking for him. At least, that's what I understand from the link.

It appears the description discrepancy is a mistake on the author's part as pointed out by this poster:

6 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

About Jeyne and the size of her hips, GRRM has said he made a mistake when describing her hips differently through Jaime's POV.  Here is the SSM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/10068.

I think that throws a wrench into the theory of Jeyne possibly pregnant and the descriptions being of two different girls.

 

 

 

 

The poor girl's mother claims she's NOT pregnant:

Quote

There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?”

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. “She is not,” said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. “I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me.”

Jaime nodded. Tywin Lannister was not a man to overlook such details. “Unhand the girl,” he said, “I’m done with her for now.” As Jeyne fled sobbing down the stairs, he considered her mother.

I find your idea the scene is a set-up to fool Jaime to be worthy of consideration- ASoIaF is plagued with false identities, after all. 

We'll see how this plays out in TWOW!

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

12 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

About Jeyne and the size of her hips, GRRM has said he made a mistake when describing her hips differently through Jaime's POV.  Here is the SSM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/10068.

I think that throws a wrench into the theory of Jeyne possibly pregnant and the descriptions being of two different girls.

I already addressed this earlier in the thread. I shall copy paste my earlier response here :

Some editions have the narrow hips and some don't. Significantly, a 2005 edition is missing the "narrow hips" reference as far as I know. So perhaps the "most recent" edition could have simply been from the same file as that 2005 edition? I'm not sure. But it is not definitive and GRRM has neglected to provide us with clarity.

As for the SSM, I don't trust it at all. It was a quick question from fans asked during a book signing, arguably the worst time to ask GRRM questions about the plot. What was the exact wording of their question? What was the exact wording of his response? Was this fan telling the truth? I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say the fan who wrote that SSM was being honest, but I do not trust them not to mischaracterize GRRM's answer. I am certainly not going to take this super vague SSM as "proof" that the "narrow hips" description was a mistake. In fact, I think it would be a very odd mistake for GRRM to make. Cat specifically noted that Jeyne had good hips for bearing children. Renly's eye color is much less important.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Thanks for a most interesting reply and a great link.

Well, PJ dismisses the possibility of Robb and the northern lords setting up Catelyn as his heir because the northern lords know that Rickon is alive and are looking for him. At least, that's what I understand from the link.

It appears the description discrepancy is a mistake on the author's part as pointed out by this poster:

 

The poor girl's mother claims she's NOT pregnant:

I find your idea the scene is a set-up to fool Jaime to be worthy of consideration- ASoIaF is plagued with false identities, after all. 

We'll see how this plays out in TWOW!

Welcome! Yes, the main point of PJ's videos on the north is to describe the multiple intertwined conspiracies that appear to be happening in the north, none of which involve making Jon king. Primarily, Wex knew that Bran and Rickon were alive because he was hiding in the trees when Luwin died, and it seems that Wex has acted as the messenger in a trade between the Asha faction of the Ironborn and Lord Manderly. The Ironborn are trading Rickon's location and the Glover hostages in exchange for Manderly breaking Theon out of WF (with help from the Umbers and Mance Rayder).

And that SSM about Jeyne's hips is quite ambiguous. I don't put that much trust into a random fan not to mischaracterize their conversation with GRRM. We don't know the actual wording of their question or his answer. And it was asked quickly during a book signing, not a Q&A session. I definitely don't take it as conclusive evidence that it was really a mistake.

And yes, if Jeyne was actually pregnant, you can bet a million dollars that her mother would lie to the Lannisters about it. Lady Sybell was promised substantial rewards for her part, and she has failed to deliver on her end of the deal. Admitting that Jeyne was pregnant could mean that she would lose her reward and Jeyne could be killed.

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but the escape and disappearance of the Blackfish is itself another hint that Jeyne is pregnant. What is the Blackfish even doing? Where did he go? What is his goal? Considering he was a squire for Lord Darry in his youth and had a schism with his brother over his refusals to several marriage offers, it seems that the Blackfish may be a Targaryen loyalist, and his interests may be aligned with the BwB, who happen to now be lead by Cat. I'm guessing he will deliver Jeyne to them and may later be involved in the foreshadowed marriage between Sansa and Aegon.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

14 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Saying "Maybe if he was" is not evidence. Especially if his entire role as a secondary character was fairly static.
So far, there is no reason to believe he was ever.  His honesty and honor, like that of his father is his failing. It is why he was betrayed and killed. Could he have just banged Jeyne after he took her family castle and then gone back to the fruit of walders loins? Nope. 
He didn't have the wherewithal to see that his own commanders were being disingenuous. Therefore is makes no sense that he would be that way with his mom.  
ravenous reader, There you go 

So your basic argument is, this is simply out of character for Robb, a character who we spend very little time getting to know. Even though Cat stated in a previous chapter that Robb "bagged her like a hare in a snare" referring to his comments about follies done for love before introducing Cat to Jeyne. She even thinks that Robb acted like a "king" in both of his traps.

I am not buying your logic at all. There is a crystal clear reason to think Robb was being disingenuous in that conversation which I spelled out in the OP. Robb has caught Cat in another one of his kingly traps, and literally the only opportunity for that trap to be setup was in that conversation. And Cat's answers in that conversation were entirely predictable, and Robb could have easily learned about Oldstones from someone like Edmure, giving Robb the perfect opportunity to disingenuously spark a conversation about his heir and threaten her with Jon to setup his trap. You may not agree with my conclusions, but I don't conclude things without evidence from the text, which I cited in the OP.

Was Robb generally honest and honorable? To the extent it cost him his kingdom? Sure. Was he capable of deceiving Cat? Well, considering we know for a fact that he once bagged her like a hare in a snare, I think he was. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons, we have endless descriptions of all the clothing they wear at the NW... layers of woolen small clothes, fur, leather, mail. Then we have a little info on the weapons used by the conspirators: knives/daggers. I don't think a knife or a dagger (a short bladed knife) would be long enough to penetrate all the layers of clothing and still cause major damage to vital organs. 

And yes, you assume correctly. So far I have only read parts I & II of your grand theory. A mistake I have every intention of rectifying asap, and then I'll get back to you again!

I also want to second what @The Fattest Leech and others have said: you're a very gracious thread host, and even better, you have an excellent sense of humour! Well done!

Oddly enough, I have never heard that particular argument about Jon's stabbing. It is certainly more logical than some other explanations I have heard, like "Jon only imagined getting stabbed that many times" . I guess it really depends on where they ended up stabbing Jon, and if they continued stabbing him after the chapter ended. For instance, they would probably be able to penetrate deep enough to stab his kidneys through his clothing (I'm not a doctor but I think this is true), but they would have a harder time doing damage to his lungs or aorta. I think the more important questions (which we won't have answered until TWOW) are: 1) will someone (Tormund?) chase off the attackers before they finish killing Jon? Or, alternatively will they simply think they dealt lethal damage when they haven't and run away? and 2) Will Jon receive medical attention quickly? i.e. is there even a capable healer nearby? Since the NW has no skilled healers left at CB (and Clydas could be among those who want him dead anyways), Jon would probably be dependent on a wildling healer being nearby.

It is definitely possible that Jon will survive, but I am personally betting against it. But really, my opinion is more based on where I think the story is headed and the potential foreshadowing for Jon's resurrection. I definitely don't have an expert medical opinion on the lethality of his wounds . I think it will roughly play out like: Jon's mind goes into Ghost and his body is put in an ice cell -> Bran communicates with Jon while he is inside Ghost to give him important info -> Mel gets the (fake) news of Stannis's death, concludes Jon is AAR, and burns Shireen to resurrect him -> Jon's mind is wrenched out of Ghost and back into his body, along with his new knowledge about the Others.

Part 3 of my theory is definitely a doozy . It is mostly highly speculative, but it provides a nice, cohesive framework for all my small-scale conclusions about things like Bloodraven being a nefarious fellow, and the weirwoods actually being tree-people, and the story of Howland Reed's journey to the Isle of Faces and then Harrenhal. A whole 1 person has responded to the original post so far . I have ended up starting smaller threads to discuss specific sections of the theory like what really happened at the HOTU and telepathy in ASOIAF explained, linking back to the main theory as a reference. And I plan on doing this with at least a few more things. Next one will probably be a thread revisiting the discussion surrounding Bran's assassin, now in the context of the whole theory spelled out, and also examining the evidence that it was Mance specifically who carried out the Old Gods' plan to arm the assassin, plant the bag of silver, and set the WF library on fire.

Thank you, I try my best to facilitate fun and enjoyable debates! And yes... I do have a great sense of humor, don't I?   

[Prof. Cecily]

37 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Welcome! Yes, the main point of PJ's videos on the north is to describe the multiple intertwined conspiracies that appear to be happening in the north, none of which involve making Jon king. Primarily, Wex knew that Bran and Rickon were alive because he was hiding in the trees when Luwin died, and it seems that Wex has acted as the messenger in a trade between the Asha faction of the Ironborn and Lord Manderly. The Ironborn are trading Rickon's location and the Glover hostages in exchange for Manderly breaking Theon out of WF (with help from the Umbers and Mance Rayder).

That wasn't my impression of PJ's video.

In any case, Theon is out of WF and under Stannis' control in TWOW and not returned to the Ironborn.What PJ's reason does accomplish is destroy any thought the northern lords would have participated in this supposed entrapment of Cat as heir to Winterfell. All Robb has to do is order her to Seagard. Which, according to the text, is what he does.

 I must rewatch that series of videos.Prehaps I'm missing something.

 

 

And that SSM about Jeyne's hips is quite ambiguous. I don't put that much trust into a random fan not to mischaracterize their conversation with GRRM. We don't know the actual wording of their question or his answer. And it was asked quickly during a book signing, not a Q&A session. I definitely don't take it as conclusive evidence that it was really a mistake.

You don't seriously the variations in the editions as evidence of an author's lapse? That Homer nodded?

Well, TWOW will clear all this up. Or so I hope.

And yes, if Jeyne was actually pregnant, you can bet a million dollars that her mother would lie to the Lannisters about it. Lady Sybell was promised substantial rewards for her part, and she has failed to deliver on her end of the deal. Admitting that Jeyne was pregnant could mean that she would lose her reward and Jeyne could be killed.

You could be right there!

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but the escape and disappearance of the Blackfish is itself another hint that Jeyne is pregnant. What is the Blackfish even doing? Where did he go? What is his goal? Considering he was a squire for Lord Darry in his youth and had a schism with his brother over his refusals to several marriage offers, it seems that the Blackfish may be a Targaryen loyalist, and his interests may be aligned with the BwB, who happen to now be lead by Cat. I'm guessing he will deliver Jeyne to them and may later be involved in the foreshadowed marriage between Sansa and Aegon.

Blackfish a secret Targ loyalist? Why isn't he is Essos, serving the royal family?

Foreshadowed marriage between Sansa and Aegon? Interesting. Sansa is in the Vale and married to Tyrion at the moment. Where is this foreshadowed?

Most interesting speculation- it whets my appetite for TWOW!

 

 

[Lord Freypie]

I think this theory has many elements for it, especially the structure of that chapter, I dissected there :

There are also later elements, like unCat being the one ending with the bronze and iron northern crown.

Now, making this reveal 3 books after the Will chapter, look a bit long, even for GRRM (although not unprecedented, Joffrey and LF plots from book one where only revealed thousand pages after, and Varys/Illyrio true goal only in Dance when they were plotting from the beginning).

And there's the thing it only complicates the story, as Cat is a bit too undead to be in position to do anything except give the crown to another heir once one is found.

I think it's possible that when he wrote the chapter GRRM toyed with the idea of this possible twist, and avoided to name the heir in the chapter in case he later decided to make the choice to include the Cat step (step because all she would do is crowning the final Stark heir not really being in position to rule herself). But as his writing stagnated in the 15 following years, and he's supposed to finish the story in only two books, it's likely he won't use the idea finally (he may even not use Robb will at all, considering it's not really needed with Rickon and Bran still alive to name Jon their regent).

 

[myhalfgroat]

this idea adds nothing at all to the story.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

That wasn't my impression of PJ's video.

In any case, Theon is out of WF and under Stannis' control in TWOW and not returned to the Ironborn.What PJ's reason does accomplish is destroy any thought the northern lords would have participated in this supposed entrapment of Cat as heir to Winterfell. All Robb has to do is order her to Seagard. Which, according to the text, is what he does.

 I must rewatch that series of videos.Prehaps I'm missing something.

Yes, I guess that conspiracy only got a brief mention in that video. In my mind I conflated those 2 videos with PJ's analysis of TWOW Theon I. If you get a chance, I highly recommend watching that series as well. He talks about all sorts of things going on in the north.

Long story short, Stannis is part of the conspiracy and has agreed to eventually return Theon to House Harlaw. First off, we know he has been working with Mance, who snuck into WF as Manderly's singer and facilitated the Theon escape. Then we have the mystery of the "wrong way rangers". Stannis sent Richard Horpe and Justin Massey south in ADWD for some reason, and this reason may have been to form diplomatic alliances with Manderly and Umber, and to get tactical information about the land around WF. It seems that rather than his current snow-bound predicament being an accident, Stannis is in the midst of executing an absolutely brilliant plan to take WF, one truly worthy of the greatest military commander in Westeros. Stannis knows he cannot siege WF. He doesn't have the resources or the numbers, and the weather ends up making a siege unfathomable. No, Stannis must cunningly lure his opponents into the field and kill them outside WF's walls.

So what does he do? Well, first he sends a letter to Jon from Deepwood Motte with information about his army that is almost certainly counter-intelligence. We know this because Roose later quotes the information contained in the letter when describing Stannis's forces, and Stannis isn't an idiot when it comes to military matters. Jon may be relatively trustworthy, but Clydas certainly isn't. Side note - he also somehow "ransomed" the Ironborn hostages from Sybelle Glover, even though she was specifically holding Ironborn hostages in the hopes she would be able to trade them for her family back, implying that the ransom Stannis paid was to facilitate a deal that will, in fact, get her family back from the House Harlaw (probably in exchange for Theon). Next, his crony/ally Mance (and the spearwives) murders a bunch of people, causing massive tension inside the castle, making Roose's situation untenable. Even without the timely death of Big Walder and the ensuing fight (which I blame Ramsay for and not Stannis), Roose had already been forced into a position where he had to send men out to fight at his first chance to avoid them fighting inside the castle. So in the context of this planned chaos, Stannis deceitfully allows the Bolton maester (who was brought along by Karstark) to send Roose a map with Stannis's location (the parchment we see in Roose's hand when he sends all the men out to fight Stannis), another excellent piece of counter-intel, considering Stannis almost certainly knew early on that the maester was working for Roose. Finally, Stannis drills waaaaayyy too many holes in the ice on the small lakes around the village and keeps a beacon fire burning 24/7.

And to speculate about TWOW, Stannis will probably take Arnolf Karstark (pretending he is Theon, in yet another Stannis execution identity fake out) and cut off his head with a glowing/flaming Lightbringer on the island in the middle of the lake with the weirwood. The Frey cavalry will charge Stannis and break through the ice, mostly drowning in the lake while the survivors are picked off by the hostile Manderly forces coming up behind them. We will see if this actually happens!  

PJ's reason does not destroy the reasons for the northern lords participating in the trap, because at time of the signing of Robb's will, they had not yet learned that Bran and Rickon were alive.

4 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

You don't seriously the variations in the editions as evidence of an author's lapse? That Homer nodded?

Well, TWOW will clear all this up. Or so I hope

If it was as clear as, say: the oldest versions contained "narrow hips" and then at some point GRRM corrected the mistake and all the editions since then did not contain "narrow hips", then I would take that as evidence. And I would take it as proof if GRRM publicly acknowledged the mistake on his blog or something. But the editions are a weird mixed bag, and GRRM has never offered clarification. I have 3 different editions of AFFC, all with "narrow hips" in them, including the ebook on Google. I would think/hope that if this was a legit mistake that had been corrected, that Google Books would have the up-to-date and corrected version. After all, they have the ability to upload a new edition anytime they want, as far as I know.

4 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Blackfish a secret Targ loyalist? Why isn't he is Essos, serving the royal family?

Foreshadowed marriage between Sansa and Aegon? Interesting. Sansa is in the Vale and married to Tyrion at the moment. Where is this foreshadowed?

Most interesting speculation- it whets my appetite for TWOW!

Most Targ loyalists are not in Essos. Like... everyone who fought on the losing side in Robert's Rebellion.  

More importantly, most people blame his lack of marriage acceptance on being gay, but that doesn't make much sense. In a feudal society, where power is gained through marriages, you are generally marrying someone for purely political reasons, regardless of sexual orientation. Just look at Renly, or Laenor Velaryon. While being gay is technically a possible explanation, it would make more sense if the Blackfish refused the marriage offers for political reasons. In other words, he didn't want to marry into a "rebel" house like Cat and Lysa were forced to do.

Considering Sansa never consummated her marriage (and has her virginity intact as proof of the fact) and also has the potential option of marrying someone as Alayne Baelish the Lady of Harrenhal, she could definitely marry someone with Tyrion still alive. The main little bit of foreshadowing is from The Hedge Knight. At the end of the first day of jousting, the 5 champions remaining are a Baratheon, a Tyrell, a Lannister, a Hardyng, and a Targaryen. Sansa has so far been betrothed to Joffrey Baratheon, Willas Tyrell, Tyrion Lannister, and Harry Hardyng. So if that really is GRRM being super sneaky and not just a strange coincidence, the implication is that Sansa's next betrothal will be to a Targaryen, which would most certainly be Aegon, someone who is currently conquering Westeros and has need of a politically powerful wife to replace Dany. And this could potentially set up a situation where Tyrion kills Aegon to get his wife Sansa back, which I think would be hilarious.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

38 minutes ago, myhalfgroat said:

this idea adds nothing at all to the story.

and what, pray tell, does Jon being the heir "add to the story"?

As I have already said earlier in the thread, this argument is absolutely nonsense.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Lord Freypie said:

I think this theory has many elements for it, especially the structure of that chapter, I dissected there :

There are also later elements, like unCat being the one ending with the bronze and iron northern crown.

Now, making this reveal 3 books after the Will chapter, look a bit long, even for GRRM (although not unprecedented, Joffrey and LF plots from book one where only revealed thousand pages after, and Varys/Illyrio true goal only in Dance when they were plotting from the beginning).

And there's the thing it only complicates the story, as Cat is a bit too undead to be in position to do anything except give the crown to another heir once one is found.

I think it's possible that when he wrote the chapter GRRM toyed with the idea of this possible twist, and avoided to name the heir in the chapter in case he later decided to make the choice to include the Cat step (step because all she would do is crowning the final Stark heir not really being in position to rule herself). But as his writing stagnated in the 15 following years, and he's supposed to finish the story in only two books, it's likely he won't use the idea finally (he may even not use Robb will at all, considering it's not really needed with Rickon and Bran still alive to name Jon their regent).

Nice! I particularly liked the logic you laid out for Robb picking Cat. That seems to be the point that everyone gets hung up on. I think people tend to project their opinions about Cat and the importance of the Stark bloodline onto Robb. It is clear that Robb has a lot more respect for Cat than all the Cat-haters on the forum.

Yes it would be a long reveal but, as you said, not unprecedented. Side note - I actually think Joffrey was not responsible for Bran's assassin and that it was Bloodraven, so if I am right he still has not done this reveal, though he has given us enough info to puzzle it out. Most significantly, why arm the assassin with LF's dagger unless you want to plant LF's dagger? Why arm the assassin at all? He doesn't need a weapon to kill a comatose child. Long story short, the only reasonable explanation is that the dagger was planted on purpose to help start the Wot5K, and the only one who could have planned for the assassin to fail was Bloodraven via warging summer and killing the guy himself.  

I think that Cat is probably a bit too undead (apt phrasing btw) to do much, but I am not so sure. She is currently commanding the BwB, and she is in a certain sense worshiped as a religious symbol. She isn't just a zombie, she is a zombie who was ostensibly resurrected by the will of R'hllor (at least in the minds of Thoros and his followers). If more people keep converting to the religion of the Red God (which has been happening so far) and Cat starts giving them orders under her dual authority as both Robb's heir and holy zombie, I think many people would obey her, regardless of her hideous and horrifying appearance, and this gives her a fair bit of power. It would certainly be a totally different situation if Cat were dead dead.

I think it is possible that GRRM toyed with a possible twist and abandoned it, but I am betting against it. Cat is still walking and talking and even commanding people, and at least a couple people who witnessed Robb's will are still alive, even if the will itself has been destroyed or lost. I certainly won't be surprised if GRRM has a super cool reason in store for naming Cat heir.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

21 hours ago, St Daga said:

You yourself said:

You yourself said you would rather have Ned's widow over a "bastard deserter" who is "cursed" for "breaking an oath". That is your opinion! You might not personally have anything against bastards and oathbreakers, but in this case, you clearly don't prefer them over a poor widow!

A poor choice of words on my part. I was not trying to project my own feelings onto characters. What I probably should have said was: based on the information given to us about people's feelings concerning bastards, oathbreakers, and the NW, I think the nobles raised in northern Westerosi culture would rather have Ned's widow marry someone new and let them have WF than a bastard deserter who has possibly been cursed by the Old Gods for breaking an oath made to them.

My opinion on the matter is that I would personally prefer Jon for my king, because I don't give a fuck that he is a bastard or an oathbreaker, and I like him way more than Cat.

Please do not tell me what my opinions are. I am definitely a better authority on that matter than you.  

21 hours ago, St Daga said:

The one quote you use, comes from Jon himself, who is at one of the lowest times in his young life, torn between his vows to the Watch, and his love and duty he feels for Robb and his need for vengeance for his fathers death. Jon characteristically doesn't feel himself as worthy ever, let alone at this low time in his life, and this emotional moment makes him feel even worse. 

Besides, it's stated multiple times in the text that "Jon Snow knows nothing" so I doubt we should trust his opinion. 

Like I said, there is a whole 5 books worth of people demeaning bastards and oathbreakers. I just picked one relevant quote. We definitely shouldn't 100% trust Jon, but he does have at least a slightly informed opinion about how people in northern Westeros feel concerning bastards and oathbreakers.

21 hours ago, St Daga said:

Besides, if Bloodraven truly is responsible for everything that happens, you should have just as much sympathy for Jon as you do Catelyn, when it is obvious that Bloodraven is responsible for his (and her) moves in this story!

I do have just as much sympathy for Jon. Bloodraven set him up to get fucking backstabbed! Literally and figuratively backstabbed... That doesn't make him Robb's heir, though.  

21 hours ago, St Daga said:

As I said before, I don't think that is the story that GRRM is telling us, with bastards being "less" than true born people. He gave us two examples of northern "bastards", Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow, to show us how genetic's, development and guidance can very much make two people differ, with far different outcomes (hopefully) in this story. But we know the story has several people that are true born who are just as bad as Ramsay, such as Gregor Clegane or Armory Lorch. 

I agree, but it is the opinions of the northern lords that matter for the sake of this discussion, not our own. GRRM may have no problem with bastards, and you and I may have no problem with bastards, but the nobility of Westeros historically has not been particularly friendly to bastards. Let me put it this way: "bastard" is used by Grenn and some other folks as an insult toward Jon, and no one bats an eye. It can obviously be used as an insult because the word "bastard" has an inherently insulting connotation.

21 hours ago, St Daga said:

Seriously, you don't think the northern lords are smart enough to understand that Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion threw wild fire on a spark, which lead to so many things going wrong for Ned, the Stark's, and the north in general? 

No, I don't. You are looking at the war from the reader's perspective, with 100% of the info available to readers. The northern lords have quite a different perspective, and they also lack about 99% of the details that we get about Cat's adventures and "mistakes".

I would assume they blame the war on Robert's death and Ned's capture/murder. Riverrun may have called its banners after Cat captured Tyrion, but Winterfell only called its banners after Ned was taken prisoner. And then Joffrey executed Ned making the war unavoidable.

Remember, when Cat captured Tyrion, King Robert was still alive. It was somewhat reasonable for Cat to expect that Robert would give them justice if it was proven that the Lannisters were responsible for Bran's fall and subsequent assassin and the murder of Jon Arryn, actions which Cat thought she had proof of at the time. Cat didn't just capture Tyrion for no reason. She publicly blamed him for trying to kill Bran. This was not unreasonable.

[St Daga]

9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Please do not tell me what my opinions are. I am definitely a better authority on that matter than you.  

I guess I shouldn't call it your opinion, but it was definitely your statement! Since all I know of you is this forum, it seemed reasonable to assume! Assuming can be a dangerous game!

9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I would assume they blame the war on Robert's death and Ned's capture/murder. Riverrun may have called its banners after Cat captured Tyrion, but Winterfell only called its banners after Ned was taken prisoner. And then Joffrey executed Ned making the war unavoidable.

We should all be careful of assuming!

Actually, the northern forces were already fighting, and had engaged in battle at the Whispering Wood, and captured Jaime Lannister, before news of Ned's execution had reached them. When they received that news in regards to ending the Lannister siege at Riverrun, I am not sure, but the north was already fighting in the war. They had an option to retreat after the news of Ned's death came to them, but they chose to fight on.

9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Like I said, there is a whole 5 books worth of people demeaning bastards and oathbreakers. I just picked one relevant quote. We definitely shouldn't 100% trust Jon, but he does have at least a slightly informed opinion about how people in northern Westeros feel concerning bastards and oathbreakers.

Ah, bastard and oathbreaker. Words thrown around a lot in ASOIAF. 

Last night, well doing a excellent job of avoiding house work, I looked into the word "bastard" in ASOIAF. In the five published novels, the word bastard is used 546 times.

I was surprised at how few derogatory statements were said of bastards in this story. In was enlightening.

Birth right

It is used a lot as a description of a child born out of wed lock from at least one parent from a noble or high ranking family. But it's not condemning as much as it's a statement of fact. Right away we are told this:

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the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own. AGOT-Bran I

 

Multiple uses in the text of a description of a person's birth, but not in a condemning tone. I won't bore us with them all but one that stands out to me is:

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Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel." AGOT-Jon I

Benjen use the word pretty darn casually, even flippantly, as if he doesn't see bastards as a problem. He doesn't use the term as an insult, a curse, in a derogatory or condemning manner. It's used to describe a child born out of wedlock. Benjen was certainly raised in the north with ideals of the northmen. Of course, it's kind of an asshole statement from Benjen, but he doesn't seem aware of how sensitive Jon is too the term. Maybe trueborn can never understand how it feels to be baseborn?

Of course, the word bastard comes up in Jon's POV's a lot. Jon is actually the person who describes bastards in some of the worst ways. Several times Jon describes himself poorly while using the word bastard are as follows:

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He was a bastard, after all. Everyone knew that bastards were wanton and treacherous by nature, having been born of lust and deceit.  ASOS-Jon VII

How does Jon learn this information? Does "everyone" talk to him about this, has Ned told him this, has he overheard it (from Catelyn, perhaps) or was he taught this (by Maester Luwin, perhaps)?

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When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child's folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword. AGOT Jon-VIII

At some point in his life, Jon learned that he could not inherit Ice from his father. Was this the same conversation in which Robb told him that he could never inherit Winterfell because he was a bastard, or something else? I suppose we will never know, but he certainly learned that lesson from someone/something. I don't think it is a general consensus around Winterfell.

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Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. AGOT- Jon IX

When he was deserting the Watch to join Robb and seek vengeance for Ned's death. Here, it seems, Jon feel's like he might be living up to expectations someone had for him. Who?

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The dream was sweet . . . but Winterfell would never be his to show. It belonged to his brother, the King in the North. He was a Snow, not a Stark. Bastard, oathbreaker, and turncloak . . . ASOS-Jon V

This seems to be a theme for Jon- bastard, oathbreaker, turncloak.

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Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame. ASOS-Jon X

The final example of Jon thinking of himself as a bastard, and not in the sense of a term used to describe his base-born birth, but as a defect in his persona. What men said this? I think it's important to how Jon thinks and feels.

It's hard to say if Jon learned these things by overhearing casual talk or if he was taught these things. We do know he was taught something by a important figure in his life.

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"Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children." AGOT-Jon I

He was either taught this or figured it out himself, possibly by eavesdropping.

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A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes. AGOT-Jon I

Pure speculation on my part, but this seems like it might have been something Maester Luwin also might have taught Jon.

But Jon also things there is hope for him to have some honor and to make something of himself. 

Here is that statement from Robb, who seems to have received this valuable knowledge on bastards from Catelyn, which has affected Jon from the moment Robb said it to him. The pain and idea has lingered for Jon, and I wonder if much of what Jon has been told of bastards has trickled from the mouth of Catelyn Tully Stark.

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Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." ASOS-Jon XII

On the other hand, Jon thinks bastards are redeemable.

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"A bastard can have honor too," Jon said. AGOT-Jon I

 

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Even a bastard could rise high in the Night's Watch, they said. AGOT Jon-VI

I assume he was taught that also, maybe by Maester Luwin, maybe by Ned?

Those are the things that Jon has stated or internalized about being a bastard.

Sword terminology

It is used several times to describe a type of sword, usually Jon's Longclaw, but once it is Rolly Duckfields's sword.

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Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a "bastard sword."  AGOT-Jon VIII

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The brawny man unsheathed a bastard sword. "I'm Duck, you mouthy little pisspot." ADWD-Tyrion III

General term of insult, north of the wall, in the north and southron insults, included.

It is used often by Alliser Thorne in regards to Jon, as a bastard. But not just by Thorne, and not just as an insult.

 

Quote

"Do it," she urged him after a moment. "Bastard. Do it. I can't stay brave forever." ACOK-Jon VI

Even Ygritte refers to Jonno this way.

Southron opinions:

Quote

Tyrion sighed. "You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. AGOT-Tyrion II

I guess this indicates that Tyrion at least, but maybe all Lannisters and southron expect bastards not to be polite?

Quote

 

"If you are a lord, you might learn a lord's courtesy," the little man replied, ignoring the sword point in his face. "Your bastard brother has all your father's graces, it would seem." AGOT- Bran IV

 

 

 

Yet, here Tyrion bluntly tells Robb that Jon, the bastard, has learned Ned's courtesy, grace and politeness, implying Robb has none of these. Ouch!

 

Quote

My blood is stirred. And yours, I know . . . there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. ASOS-Sansa VI

Here is Marillion's opinion that all bastard born girls must be lusty. Is that stereoptype that has taught him that, or experience? Hard to say, as I find it pretty hard to trust much of what he says. Still to him, base born equal's lusty.

 

Quote

 

The Lord of the Eyrie could scarcely be thought to have married a bastard, that would not be fitting.  ASOS-Sansa VI

 

 

 

This is Littlefinger filling Sansa's head full of her marriage to Robert Arryn, before he fills her head full of marriage to Harry the Heir. I can't gain an honest impression of anything that Littlefinger actually says, so I am not sure how to classify this. He seems to be telling Sansa that a bastard girl would not be allowed to marry a high lord at the same time he is planting it in her head.

Quote

 

"Addison Hill? The White Owl, Michael Mertyns? Jeffory Norcross? They called him Neveryield. Red Robert Flowers? What can you tell me of them?"

"Flowers is a bastard name. So is Hill."

"Yet both men rose to command the Kingsguard. AFFC-Jaime II

 

Jaime giving us examples of two southron bastards that rose high enough to become Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard. That is a pretty impressive fete. Who knows what they might have accomplished if they were not base born?

 

Quote

Marriage would serve the both of us. Lands for me, and a castle full of these for you." He waved his hand at the children. "I am capable, I assure you. I've sired at least one bastard that I know of. Have no fear, I shan't inflict her upon you. AFFC-Brienne VII

 

Ser Hyle Hunt, trying to charm the pants off of Brienne. Ser Hyle doesn't seem ashamed of his bastard daughter, even tries to use her as proof that he could give Brienne children, but also tells Brienne he won't inflict the child upon her. Well, that is a mixed bag. He might not mind bastards but he thinks Brienne might object to raising his base born daughter.

 

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Cersei almost laughed. "My lord father used to say that bastards are treacherous by nature. Would that I had listened." AFFC-Cercei X

Cersei telling us Tywin's opinion on bastards. I guess we can trust this, but it verges close to unreliable narrator territory. Ah, if only Tywin could have commented to Cersei on her own bastards.

 

Quote

 

"His natural daughter?" Lady Sybell looked as if she had swallowed a lemon. "You want a Westerling to wed a bastard?"

"No more than I want Joy to marry the son of some scheming turncloak bitch. She deserves better."  AFFC-Jaime VII

 

This one I particularly enjoy. Sybil Spicer Westerling, seems to not be pleased that her son is to marry a Lannister bastard, while Jaime is not pleased that his base-born cousin Joy Hill is going to marry into a schemer's turncloak family! Ouch, Jaime. It does give the impression that marriage to a base born child is less than desirable, even for a lowly lords family like the Westerlings.

 

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Irascible Lord Frey, who had outlived seven wives and filled his twin castles with children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, and bastards and grandbastards as well. AGOT- Catelyn V

Walder Frey seems to house all of his children, true-born and base-born. He supports them, sends them to tourney's, he seems to treat them pretty much like the rest of his ginormous brood, except they are excluded from the inheritance of the Twins.

The only time I see that he separates his true vs base born progeny is during Edmure's wedding to Roslin, the infamous Red Wedding.

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Lord Walder had exiled his baseborn children and their offspring to that side of the river, so that Robb's northmen had taken to referring to it as "the bastard feast."  ASOS-Catelyn VII

 

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Their arrival, coming within hours of Lord Hoster's passing, had sent Edmure into a rage. "Walder Frey should be flayed and quartered!" he'd shouted. "He sends a cripple and a bastard to treat with us, tell me there is no insult meant by that." ASOS-Catelyn IV

I am not really surprised by Edmure's opinion since it so closely follow's Catelyn's opinion. They were, after all raised by the same father, and probably taught by the same Maester and Septon/Septa's. Still, their opinion is valid and noted.

 

Stannis the Mannis has some strong opinions, and I can only think it's fair to categorize them as southron in nature.

 

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He would even have given them Shireen. Mine only child, he would have wed to a bastard born of incest." ASOS-Davos IV

Stannis does not approve of his daughter marrying Tommen! He uses the word bastard but also throw's incest in there, so it's hard to say which he might object to more. However, he does object!

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We both know the things that are said of bastards. You may lack your father's honor, or your brother's skill in arms. But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. ASOS-Jon XI

Stannis, a stick in the mud if ever there was one, is pretty vague here about what is said about bastards, but it seems negative. He also tells Jon that he lacks Ned's honor and Robb's skill at arms. How does he know this? Does he have proof? Must be because Jon is a bastard he must lack skill at arms and lack honor. Ahh, Stannis, you charming man!

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His paramour, and bastard-born, Cersei will pitch a holy fit if he wants her at the wedding. ASOS-Tyrion V

Tyrion thinking of how Cersei might react to Oberyn Martell's paramour Ellaria Sand.

That takes care of the south, I think, besides all the people who call other people bastards instead of just calling them arseholes!

Northern opinions:

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Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. AGOT-Eddard VII

From the Neddard himself we find out that base born children have few rights. This probably relates not just to inheritance issues, but having a voice in councils, too.

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"And even a bastard may rise high in the Night's Watch," Ned reflected. AGOT Catelyn II

Looks like maybe Ned did teach this to Jon, or someone taught it to both Jon and Ned. Maester Luwin, perhaps, or Old Nan? She is a crafty one, that old Nan.

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Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? AGOT- Eddard IX

Here is a negative connotation from Ned. It seems that Ned thinks bastards are born of lust, but he also seems to think that the old gods fill men with the lusts that create bastards. Complicated stuff. But this is more about the parents of the bastard children and not about the bastard children themselves.

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Mormont frowned through his thick grey beard. "Snow? Oh, the Stark bastard. AGOT- Tyrion III

Nothing negative in the way Jeor Mormont seems to view bastards. 

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"It's not unknown for bastards to be trained as squires and raised to knighthood. ASOS-Samwell IV

Jon telling Sam that there is hope for a good future for the baby that Gilly is taking south, that Sam is considering claiming as his bastard. This seems like hope for a positive outcome for this baby.

 

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Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father's good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had. ACOK-Theon I

I am not sure where to classify Theon's thoughts, but I decided to put him in with the north because he spent his formative years being raised in the north, by the Starks.

Theon, who does tend to feel sorry for himself, thinks that Jon the Bastard was treated better then himself, Theon the Hostage. He seems to imply that Jon as a bastard should have been accorded less honor and prestige, if I am interpreting that correctly. So according the Theon, Jon, because of is birth, is less worthy than himself. But he doesn't seem to think that Jon isn't honorable, or strong, or that Jon is devious or untrustworthy.

Quote

Quote

Questioned the steward closely about Lord Hornwood's bastard, the boy Larence Snow. In the north, all highborn bastards took the surname Snow. This lad was near twelve, and the steward praised his wits and courage.

ACOK-Bran II

So, this seems like a pretty positive opinion that one northern steward has for one baseborn child. I know it can't speak for every situation, but it certainly doesn't imply that the bastard Larence Snow was unworthy of inheriting Hornwood lands.

A couple less than positive northern looks at bastardy.

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"Natural?" Sansa was aghast. "You mean, a bastard?" ASOS-Sansa VI

Ah, Sansa. This seems to apply that Sansa is insulted to have to be considered base born. I am not sure if her opinion is general from the north, or something that she might have learned from Catelyn. She also had Jeyne Poole opinion in her ear often, and Jeyne does seem like a bit of a snot. Still, she seems to think of bastards in a negative manner and it deserves a mention.

And then for Sansa to contradict herself on this subject

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That seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave. AFFC- Alayne II

In this instance, Sansa as Alayne, seems to feel she is braver as a bastard than she was as true-born, which I think is very interesting. Maybe she just see's Mya Stone as brave and is gaining some bravery by being near her. That's a guess. I have no idea. But certainly in this case Sansa is applying bravery to bastards!

A conversation between Jon Snow and Alys Karstark tell us this

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"You were sullen. My father said that was to be expected in a bastard." ADWD-Jon IX

So, according to Alys, her father, Rickard Karstark was not surprised that Jon was sullen and blamed it on his bastard birth.

Roose/Ramsay

The Roose Bolton and Ramsay Snow situation is so unusual, I think it cannot just be fit into the north under this topic, although this is no doubt that Roose is a lord from the north and his opinions on bastards are valid.

Roose describes Ramsay several times as having been tainted, or black blood,

Quote

 

Bolton's pale eyes met her own. "The ironmen burned both castle and winter town. Some of your people were taken back to the Dreadfort by my son, Ramsay."

"Your bastard was accused of grievous crimes," Catelyn reminded him sharply. "Of murder, rape, and worse."

"Yes," Roose Bolton said. "His blood is tainted, that cannot be denied. Yet he is a good fighter, as cunning as he is fearless. When the ironmen cut down Ser Rodrik, and Leobald Tallhart soon after, it fell to Ramsay to lead the battle, and he did. He swears that he shall not sheathe his sword so long as a single Greyjoy remains in the north. Perhaps such service might atone in some small measure for whatever crimes his bastard blood has led him to commit."  ASOS-Catelyn VI

 

Roose refers to Ramsay in a couple ways here. First, "his blood is tainted, that cannot be denied" seems more like a statement about Ramsay directly, while the second part "crimes his bastard blood has led him to commit" could be seen as both directly accusing Ramsay, but also about bastard blood in general. 

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"Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse. But this bastard son of his … they say he's mad and cruel, a monster." ADWD-Davos III

This seems more directed just toward Ramsay and not bastards in general.

 

Quote

"The evil is in his blood," said Robett Glover. "He is a bastard born of rape. A Snow, no matter what the boy king says." ADWD-Davos IV

This also seems to be directed just toward Ramsay, but it's vague. Does Robett Glover think that all bastards have evil in their blood, or just bastards born of rape, or just bastards born of rape by Roose?

There are many, many referrals to Ramsay's bastard blood, but the majority read to me as directly about Ramsay and not about bastards in general. I included the comment that seems to refer to bastards in a general nature. because that would include Jon or Bloodraven, or any bastard in the story. The rest about Ramsay, I left out.

North of the Wall opinions:

Quote

 

Words failed him for a moment. "The boy . . . the child would be a bastard."

"Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, more like to fail?"

"No, but—" ASOS-Jon II

 

Here is Tormund telling Jon that it doesn't seem to matter to him, and most wildlings, I think, if a child's parents are married are not.

The wildling exception to this that I have noticed is Craster.

Quote

The wildling hated bastards, though the rangers said he was baseborn himself, fathered on a wildling woman by some long-dead crow. ASOS- Samwell II

Maybe Craster hates bastards because he himself might be one.

Quote

"A bastard, is it?" Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do." ACOK- Jon III

Craster clearly thinks more highly of incest and polygamy than bastards. Craster is a complicated dude!

 

Honorable mentions:

Melisandre:

Quote

In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf. Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty. ADWD-Melisandre I

I think it's interesting that Mel seems to see much similarity in Stannis and Jon Snow, one true born  and one base born. She doesn't seem to see any harm in Jon's bastard status, and actually see's that both Stannis and Jon have honor and duty in common. But her opinion certainly has nothing to do with the northern lords, or even southron opinions on bastardy.

Qhorin Halfhand:

Quote

"They warned me bastard blood was craven," he heard Qhorin Halfhand say coldly behind him. "I see it is so. Run to your new masters, coward." ACOK-Jon VIII

This one is tricky to me because here, Qhorin is manipulating Jon to kill him and the wildlings into believing that Jon has become a turncloak to the watch. Still, Qhorin does use the words craven and coward when referring to bastards, so it's important to note. But I am not sure where Qhorin originated before he went to the Wall, so I don't know if his words are the opinion of the north or the south.

Viserys:

Quote

He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him."  AGOT- Daenerys V

This has nothing to do with people in Westeros opinions of bastards, so feel free to ignore it.

Reading this again, it just struck me as odd. Viserys' statement is neither an opinion of the north or the south, but it his own odd mixture of being raised in exile. What I think is odd about it, is that he refers to Dany's unborn child as a bastard. But why? Dany was married, and the ceremony and marriage seem to be accepted, both by the Dothraki, as well as people of Essos and Westeros. So why the bastard statement?

Does he suspect Dany's child of not being Drogo's? If so why? Or does Viserys for some reason just not accept the validity of Dany's marriage to Drogo? I have questioned in the past that Dany had a sexual encounter the night before she wed Drogo that she is blocking or does not remember, and this is going in that pile of tinfoil notes and weirdness I have about that.

 

So, I looked at all cases of how the northern lords would look at Jon as a bastard, and the only two (maybe one and a half) that I find that are even slightly negative are:

Rickard Karstark pointing out Jon was sullen because he was a bastard (and as you point out, Rickard Karstark is dead, so he can't speak out against Jon any more than he can Catelyn. (1 point)

Robett Glover speaking about bastards born of rape being evil (we don't yet know the details of Jon's conception) so I am not sure if this applies to Jon, or just Ramsay. (I actually want to given this only a 1/2 point because it's so vague)

So, sullen and evil (if conceived by rape and not just in reference to Ramsay). That is not so horrible, and I don't see why the northern lords wouldn't consider following Jon. 

Maybe I should consider Jon's own statements and opinions, but as we earlier discussed, Jon Snow know's nothing!

I have not yet taken much time to look into how the north might feel about oathbreakers, but at a quick glance/search, most of those comments refer to Jaime Lannister, and only a few to Jon (and those are his own opinion).

@40 Thousand Skeletons I looked into the text and actually found there was less northern negativity to bastards than I had thought. So I thank you for putting me in that direction. The oathbreaker thing might prove more telling, but I am mentally done with research at this time, but will tackle it at some point. 

 

9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Cat thought she had proof of at the time. Cat didn't just capture Tyrion for no reason. She publicly blamed him for trying to kill Bran. This was not unreasonable.

We can agree to disagree on this. I think Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion was very unreasonable. You say she had proof, or thought she did, but she really had no proof. She had one person telling her a story, that ultimately was a lie. If she had asked around even a little bit, she could have determined that Littlefinger gave her bad information, and that should have tipped her off to his trustworthiness. The only thing I can say about this, is the events happened very quickly, and she left Kings Landing more quickly than she arrived, which didn't give her much time to research. Still, as far as we know, she never tried to get a second opinion because she felt Baelish was trustworthy. That trust eventually cost her everything.

Fun debating, as always!

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Actually, the northern forces were already fighting, and had engaged in battle at the Whispering Wood, and captured Jaime Lannister, before news of Ned's execution had reached them. When they received that news in regards to ending the Lannister siege at Riverrun, I am not sure, but the north was already fighting in the war. They had an option to retreat after the news of Ned's death came to them, but they chose to fight on.

Yes, but the point is that if Ned had not been executed, they probably would have traded Jaime in exchange for the whole family back plus a peace deal, potentially going home after just one small battle. They would have lost dozens of men instead of thousands. But LF convinced Joffrey to kill Ned. After that the north wanted vengeance for Ned, so they were definitely going to war, and they certainly didn't blame Cat for his death.

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Robett Glover speaking about bastards born of rape being evil (we don't yet know the details of Jon's conception) so I am not sure if this applies to Jon, or just Ramsay. (I actually want to given this only a 1/2 point because it's so vague)

I am impressed by the amount of research you did into the use of "bastard"  

I agree with most of your observations, but I disagree with your interpretation of Robett's statement.

Quote

"The evil is in his blood," said Robett Glover. "He is a bastard born of rape. A Snow, no matter what the boy king says."

If he had just said the first half, then I would agree it is too vague to infer an accurate connotation of bastard in this context. But then he followed it up with A Snow. This means he is directly associating Ramsay's evil nature with his bastard blood specifically. If he just thought Ramsay had evil in his blood because of rape, he wouldn't have said that last part rebuking Ramsay's legitimization from Tommen.

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

We can agree to disagree on this. I think Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion was very unreasonable. You say she had proof, or thought she did, but she really had no proof. She had one person telling her a story, that ultimately was a lie. If she had asked around even a little bit, she could have determined that Littlefinger gave her bad information, and that should have tipped her off to his trustworthiness. The only thing I can say about this, is the events happened very quickly, and she left Kings Landing more quickly than she arrived, which didn't give her much time to research. Still, as far as we know, she never tried to get a second opinion because she felt Baelish was trustworthy. That trust eventually cost her everything.

Fun debating, as always!

Not quite correct. You forget that she had two people telling her stories, which both ultimately proved to be lies. Cat's suspicions of the Lannisters began when she received the letter from Lysa blaming them for murdering Jon Arryn. That is why Cat immediately suspected the Lannisters when the assassin came after Bran. Cat easily deduced that Jaime probably threw Bran from the tower (which is, ironically, correct). Granted, LF is the one who told Lysa to send the letter in the first place, but Cat had no way to know that and no reason to distrust her sister at that point.

So when LF tells Cat that Tyrion owned the dagger, she had no reason to question it, because she was already convinced that Tyrion's brother had thrown Bran from the tower in the first place. It made perfect sense from her pov. She had no reason to seek out a second opinion to corroborate LF's story.