Prof. Cecily Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 11 hours ago, St Daga said: Spoiler Possibly neither Robb nor Cat mentions this because they don't see it as a problem in the case of Jon inheriting? You, @40 Thousand Skeletons seem to have a problem with Jon inheriting for this reason, but do people in the north? * Agreed! Bran and Luwin even discuss the possibility of Lord Hornwood's bastard son being named the heir to Hornwood lands, and Lord of the Hornwood. This decision is left unsettled by the war, and with Robb being gone from Winterfell. Ramsay takes Lady Hornwood by force, and marries her. He declares himself Lord of Hornwood because he took it by force (even if he disguised it behind a marriage), not because he legally had the best claim. If the north had not been torn apart by the War of the Five Kings, this action by Ramsay Snow would not have stood. * I think Robb does care about the Stark blood line. I think Cat cares about it, too, but not nearly as much as Robb. She would prefer the Stark blood line to continue with a nice mixture of Tully blood in the pot, and eventually it might if the story has the blood line come from Arya (however, I am not convinced that Arya has Tully blood but that tinfoil is for another day and another thread). Both Robb and Cat plainly state that Stark blood is important to who Robb names as his heir in the following exchange. Robb plainly wants someone of Stark blood to follow him as his heir. He even seems to think it important that person come from Ned's bloodline, if at all possible. Even Catelyn recognizes this is important, but she tries to derail Robb by claiming that Jon is no Stark, that he is a Snow. Of course, that argument might work for legal names but not for blood, and Robb rightly points out that Jon, despite not carrying the Stark name, is still more of a Stark than some random couins in the Vale. Jon is certainly more of a Stark than Catelyn, I think we can all agree! The argument that Robb doesn't care about his heir carrying Stark blood doesn't hold water. If that is the case, why even try to have a child with Jeyne Westerling? The biggest impediment to Jon not following Robb, who is King in the North as well as King of the Trident, isn't that fact that Jon is bastard born, or even that he is a sworn brother of the nights watch, but that he doesn't really have a claim to the riverlands, just the north. This makes it tricky for Jon to be the King of the Trident, although as King in the North, I think the people of the north would follow Jon with little trouble, regardless of his bastard birth, and depending on how he was released from his Nights Watch vows. I mentioned on a different thread, and it has been brought up on this thread as well, would Catelyn think she had been trapped if Jon was named heir and Robb declared that Jon should marry Cat? I think she would feel terribly defeated by this declaration. Personally I think it's a terrible "trick" to play on both Jon and Cat, however, children of that union would carry both Stark and Tully blood, and it might make a lot of sense for Robb to do this. Poor Jon and Cat, if that is the case! Spoiler And even if Robb did do this, since Catelyn is dead, although reborn, she now has a zombie womb and I doubt can breed any more heirs, so I am not sure it would matter. If this is what Robb did, with Catelyn dead, then her only legal female heirs are Sansa and Arya. Sansa is already married, and until Tyrion is dead, I don't think she is free to marry again, leaving Arya as Catelyn's female heir. This idea makes me think of Arya joking about a fish in a wolves mouth as her sigil, when she and Jon discuss heraldry in AGOT Arya I. That chapter also declares bastards get the swords and girls get the arms, and I think it hints at a union between Jon and Arya. I know many people don't like this idea, whether Jon and Arya are siblings or cousins, but I think there are enough hints in the text to consider that GRRM is leaving the door open to that hallway/possibility. * Why do you think Robb was lying? He has not been a known liar before this time, why would he start being a liar now? And about this, of all things? That is a part of your theory that is pretty shaky, no offense. * Well, that is your opinion. And that is fine. I have opinions that color how I view the text as well. But that doesn't mean it is the opinion of the northern lords, or any characters in GRRM's story. However, we all are guilty of projecting our own ideals and judgments on the text, but that doesn't make those personal ideals and judgments beneficial in figuring out the plot. Actually, our own personal ideals and judgments can make us misread the plot because of what we believe or wish. Maybe I don't want to think of Catelyn as Robb's heir because I personally blame her for so much of went wrong for the north from the very beginning of the story, therefore I think she would not deserve the north. But that is just my opinion coloring my hopes for the text, just as your opinion about Jon inheriting seems to color yours! * Well, we know that Catelyn was dead and came back as a "zombie", we don't know either thing about Jon. We don't know if he is dead at all, and if he isn't dead, then we don't need to worry about him being a zombie. * Yes! A huge succession mess. And if Jon is legitimized and named Robb's heir, then he is considered to be Ned's eldest son, and many would support him over his younger half-siblings. Jon as Robb's heir and legitimized as Ned's eldest living child makes the succession a much more intriguing clusterf***! * Maybe that is exactly what GRRM is trying to tell us! That every child is equal, no matter if his/her parents were married. That the institution of marriage isn't important to the outcome! That bastard born children are just as worthy and maybe more capable as rulers than their true born counterparts! * There has been much debate over the years about what parts of the Night's Watch oath are original and what are added. Who is to say what parts the Old Gods themselves respect? Maybe the Old God's themselves don't give two shits about holding lands, wearing crowns or fathering children! There is too much of the story left for GRRM to tell for us to say how it's going to all play out, but I don't think we have learned all the important things about the Nights Watch or their vows yet, or how it will effect the outcome of the story, or even what is the important part of the vows. * Oh, now, that isn't true at all. Jaime was important because it affected Tywin and Cersei's Lannister pride and arrogance. Jaime was an important hostage as a symbol, and Catelyn made a huge mess of that situation! Time will tell if Cat's releasing Jaime will play out in the eventual return of either Sansa or Arya to Winterfell, but at this point of the story, it has gained nothing. Nothing for the Stark's anyway, it has worked out only okay-ish for Jaime. I mean, after all he is free, but as a captive in Riverrun, at least he had his sword hand! Jaime might not thank unCat for her "gift" of freedom, either. * Catelyn put herself in a similar situation when she chose to travel to and from Kings Landing with only Ser Rodrik as her escort. Pretty much right after Ned made her acting regent in the north. She might not have been captured but she easily could have been. Catelyn makes some pretty poor decision's in this story, decisions that make me question her ability to rule in Winterfell, a place she admittedly never felt a part of, even after more than a decade and five children. * I told myself days ago I was done discussing this thread, but here I am. Reading the discussion has been interesting, and I can't help but wanting to respond to a few things. I do appreciate discussing the text, even if we can't all agree. Of course, how boring would it be if we all agreed all of the time? Yuck! What fun. When I mentioned this possibility it was as a joke with Ygrain. I had no idea you'd devoloped the idea in another thread. Could you shout a link, please? 11 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said: Quote I told myself days ago I was done discussing this thread, but here I am. is it catelyn who should feel trapped, or is it us? Resistance is futile 10 hours ago, Horse of Kent said: I think the fish in the wolf's mouth foreshadowing has already played out with Nymeria fishing Cat's body out of the Trident. Well spotted! 9 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said: Yeah it feels like the faceless honor the children's tradition and magic wood. The faceless might be the one sliver of humanity living in accord with the children's standards. But siccing the wolves on the undertrees would be cool endgame stuff. I like that endgame. 8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: @40 Thousand Skeletons I just want to say that you have been a gracious thread host. With the large amount of counter-debate to your theory, you have at least been in good spirits about it and have not devolved into name calling and insults. This makes discussion and fandom actually fun , even though I still think this idea is crazy By the way, what battery brand do you use because you are tireless! I second the motion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: I just wish more people would admit this when they post these ideas. Well on the flip side why would anyone in the Riverlands support Jon as King of the Riverlands? He worships foreign gods, is a bastard, has taken the Black and has no connection to House Tully. Just because Robb who lost them the war wanted it so? No, because Robb, who the riverlanders chose as their king, left a will naming Jon heir. But even if the riverlanders decide they don't want Jon as king, they can secede. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 15 hours ago, Horse of Kent said: I think the fish in the wolf's mouth foreshadowing has already played out with Nymeria fishing Cat's body out of the Trident. Certainly! I was using that part more as a reminder of that Jon/Arya conversation, and I personally love to think of Catelyn as a dead white trout getting drug out of the water by Nymeria. But words can foreshadow more than one event and the rest of that conversation between Jon and Arya has not played out yet! 13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: @40 Thousand Skeletons I just want to say that you have been a gracious thread host. With the large amount of counter-debate to your theory, you have at least been in good spirits about it and have not devolved into name calling and insults. I agree very much. Whether we all agree on the thread points or not, the OP has maintained civility, which is hard to do, when most everyone disagree's with you. The points on both sides are worth pondering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 5 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said: What fun. When I mentioned this possibility it was as a joke with Ygrain. I had no idea you'd devoloped the idea in another thread. Could you shout a link, please? I am not sure I would call it developing the idea as much as I just mentioned it as an idea for uniting the north and riverlands, since Jon does have no connection to the riverlands. The link to the whole thread is here (I hope) : I think this thread is were @40 Thousand Skeletons might have presented his original idea for Cat as Robb's heir. It is an interesting read, and already well fleshed out idea! ** And my actual statement in regards to this idea I will put in a spoiler tag, and also highlight. I mention it under the umbrella of "wild speculation", which I do enjoy partaking in! Spoiler ** On 6/9/2017 at 1:33 AM, St Daga said: This is some interesting brainstorming you have here. If Robb was just naming an heir to the Riverlands, then maybe he would pick a Tully, but it's hard to say if most of the bannerman in the Riverlands would follow a woman. Honestly, Edmure makes more sense than Cat. If Robb is still claiming his kingdom includes the North (which he has effectively lost all hold on) than Catelyn makes no sense. Catelyn has no Stark blood and probably very few northern supporters from the northern families. What loyalty does the North have to Catelyn Tully, except she is a widow of their beloved (mostly) Ned? Naming Cat his heir makes no sense; it could be considered Robb's worst decision and he has made a few bad ones. If Robb named the woman who kidnapped Tyrion Lannister, which poured some gasoline on the fire of the feud between House Lannister and Stark, then she lost Tyrion, which put Ned and the North in a terrible position, and then, finally, she released Jaime Lannister to free her daughters, when she effectively told Rickard Karstark she didn't care about his grief over his sons death when compared to the possible release of her daughters as well as giving away Robb's best bargaining chip. Nope! And the heads of northern households stood around and allowed Robb to do this? They would pull that crown off his head faster than they placed it there. I am not even sure Robb would be ridiculous enough to let Catelyn act as regent for any child he might have with Jeyne. Now, Jon as heir makes sense for the North. Ned raised Jon as his son at Winterfell, same as Robb, Whether Robb really has the power to get Jon released from his Night's Watch vows in the largest hurdle. It's an oath swore for life, and one wonders how many in the North would react to Jon going back on his vows. But these are troubling times ... so maybe. Jon doesn't make any sense for the Riverlands, and that is really the only kingdom Robb has control of now, and as judging by what happens at the Red Wedding, he doesn't even have all of the Riverlands supporting him. So what could tie Jon to the riverlands? A marriage? But to who? For a moment, I am going to play along with your wild speculation here and say that maybe Robb thought Jon could wed Catelyn, and their heirs could rule this kingdom that Robb was ruling, The North and The Riverlands! It only seems plausible in a very small way to me because both Jon and Catelyn would HATE this! I HATE this idea also! And GRRM likes to do HATEFUL things to his characters and his readers, so ... As awful as it seems, Cat is probably only 35ish, and could definitely have more children. This is so awful to think of, I speculate GRRM could do something so horrible to us, and to Jon and Cat! We know Catelyn would do her duty ... maybe! Jon, I am not so sure of. Thank the gods that Catelyn is dead and the stone-hearted zombie (who cannot procreate, I hope) is walking the Riverlands! But I don't think that Robb named Cat his heir in any way, shape or form. But Arya is an interesting possibility. So, at one point Robb claims that Bran and Rickon and Arya are dead, and Sansa is married to a Lannister, so she is better than dead as far as succession in the North goes. But later in the story, as other readers have pointed out, Robb doesn't report that Arya is dead. Maybe Robb does think there is a chance that Arya is still alive? If he names Arya his heir, at least to the Riverlands, and Jon his heir to the North, he has two siblings that the people of their respective regions would follow, and Jon and Arya would work together. I see no conflict between them. They could rule in conjunction with each other. There is that whole exchange between Jon and Arya in AGOT about bastards getting the swords and daughters getting the arms that hints at some possible conclusion for Jon and Arya as partners! I myself suspect it will be through marriage but maybe not! **TINFOIL ALERT** Here comes my own tinfoil, and it's a biggish hat, like sombrero sized. What if Robb has sensed through Grey Wind, who senses through Nymeria that Arya is still alive? I have often wondered about the dreams these kids and wolves share. At one point, we get Jon dreaming through Ghost and he knows about Shaggydog and Nymeria, and also can't sense Summer (maybe because of the wall?) Granted Jon doesn't seem aware of his siblings, only his siblings wolves, but who know's what kind of connection and dreams that Robb could have shared with Grey Wind? What if because Grey Wind and Nymeria are both relatively close to one another in the Riverlands, that they can sense more about each other? (I am taking my tinfoil sombrero off now!) I will admit this seems unlikely, because Arya doesn't seem to dream of Robb or Greywind through Nymeria, but it's very slightly possible. But how would Robb ever get to Arya, even if he suspected she could be alive. There are holes in every theory! More possible than Cat being named Robb's heir, in my opinion. I do appreciate fresh ideas though (it seems like I seen a similar idea it in a video a while back) about Cat as Robb's heir! I will say that I have often thought that Robb's hints about naming Jon as his heir are too obvious and then the whole idea becomes very vague in the story, which makes me suspicious of GRRM's intent. Just a very little bit of me doubts that Jon was Robb's choice. That is why I won't be surprised if Robb didn't name Jon, and if he didn't name Jon, then the only plausible person would be Arya! ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, St Daga said: I am not sure I would call it developing the idea as much as I just mentioned it as an idea for uniting the north and riverlands, since Jon does have no connection to the riverlands. Cheers! And I'm to hunt out the fish in the wolve's mouth original passage. Then to read the thread. I'm just surprised two people would catch such a, well, grotesque idea and toss it about within days of one another. A strange coincidence, or mayhaps it's BR up to his tricks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said: A strange coincidence, or mayhaps it's BR up to his tricks! Haha! Bloodraven is everywhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 It is known. Here's the rest of the fish in a wolf's mouth convo Quote Jon shrugged. "Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister." Anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 15 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: I just wish more people would admit this when they post these ideas. Well on the flip side why would anyone in the Riverlands support Jon as King of the Riverlands? He worships foreign gods, is a bastard, has taken the Black and has no connection to House Tully. Just because Robb who lost them the war wanted it so? Again, Robb wasn't naming the heir of house Tully, he named the heir of house Stark house Tully have a lord. On the other hand the Lord of House Stark being a Southern who has no blood connection with the Starks or the North is pretty ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 22 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: Well on the flip side why would anyone in the Riverlands support Jon as King of the Riverlands? He worships foreign gods, is a bastard, has taken the Black and has no connection to House Tully. Just because Robb who lost them the war wanted it so? Because it's not up to them to decide who is the heir of the King that they plead fealty to when they decided to secede from the rule of the Iron Throne. If Jon is who Robb named as his heir, then it would be their obligation to support him. If Robb had a son with Jeyne, he would be more a Stark; Northerner/Westerling; Westerlander than a Tully; Riverlander. Would that give them the right to oppose his legitimacy as Robb's heir? Does the heir of the Iron Throne being Baratheon/Lannister give the people in the Reach the right to oppose him because he doesn't have Tyrell blood? Robb was naming the heir to his Crown as the King in the North - of which the Riverlanders supported in their bid to secede from the IT- not an heir to Winterfell or Riverrun. Quote Just because Robb who lost them the war wanted it so? If Robb is culpable for losing them the war, then they are just as culpable for supporting, and naming Robb their King. ETA: Besides, this sounds a lot like victim blaming to me. Sure, Robb's actions were stupid and without consideration for the implications, but there is no way he could have foreseen just how devastating and drastic the outcome would be. The blame lies in the atrocious acts, and disregard for the laws and customs of Westeros by Tywin, Roose, and Walder. Having said that, at least from Tywin's perspective - as he was not a traitor - one can hardly blame him, as I've always maintained, crying about rules and fairness in a war is quite silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 On 6/16/2017 at 3:22 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: Huh? You do know that Hoster Tully had a son? And heir? Who would later become Lord of Riverrun? Cat's brother? Edmure. Robb didn't get the Riverlands through inheritance, he got them because the river lords broke their allegiance to the Iron Throne and bent the knee to Winterfell instead. And, if you read the heir discussion in ASOS, you'll be able to count the exact number of fucks given by both Robb and Cat to Tully blood and the feelings of the river lords re: Robb's prospective heir. Spoiler alert, Reveal hidden contents It's zero. Stop introducing into evidence things absent from the books! I think you are mistaken. The Riverlords would never have taken Robb for their king if he had not been half-Tully. Only a descendent of Hoster Tully could have taken that crown. Also, Robb cared deeply about the Riverlands. He spent his entire reign as king there. If the Riverlands were not important to him, when Ned died he would have just returned to the North, fortified the Neck, and enjoyed a long reign over his independent kingdom. My overall point is that Robb did not have any great options. Jon could never have held the loyalty of the River lords even if he could have gained the loyalty of the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said: I think you are mistaken. The Riverlords would never have taken Robb for their king if he had not been half-Tully. Only a descendent of Hoster Tully could have taken that crown. Also, Robb cared deeply about the Riverlands. He spent his entire reign as king there. If the Riverlands were not important to him, when Ned died he would have just returned to the North, fortified the Neck, and enjoyed a long reign over his independent kingdom. My overall point is that Robb did not have any great options. Jon could never have held the loyalty of the River lords even if he could have gained the loyalty of the North. Again, Riverlands have a Lord, Edmure. Robb's home on the other hand, was the North that is why he is the King who lost the North and not the King who lost Riverlands, and House Stark needs a Stark heir not House Tully. Even if the Riverlords don't accept a non Tully heir, which is silly, no one gives a damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said: Cheers! And I'm to hunt out the fish in the wolve's mouth original passage. Then to read the thread. I'm just surprised two people would catch such a, well, grotesque idea and toss it about within days of one another. A strange coincidence, or mayhaps it's BR up to his tricks! Perfect! And btw, I've been meaning to thank you and @Lollygag for the quotes you guys provided. But I still don't think those passages hint at a possible marriage between Cat and Mallister (or someone else). I think that's more to do w/ the characters having depth and behaving like actual people. For instance, the one where she kinda bumps into him and recognises him feels exactly like what someone in her situation would think upon meeting someone they knew and hadn't seen in many years... Does that make any sense? Sorry if it doesn't, it's been a really long day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said: Perfect! And btw, I've been meaning to thank you and @Lollygag for the quotes you guys provided. But I still don't think those passages hint at a possible marriage between Cat and Mallister (or someone else). I think that's more to do w/ the characters having depth and behaving like actual people. For instance, the one where she kinda bumps into him and recognises him feels exactly like what someone in her situation would think upon meeting someone they knew and hadn't seen in many years... Does that make any sense? Sorry if it doesn't, it's been a really long day! You're so very welcome from my part! I had a great time rereading the Catelyn V chapter of ASOS in the light of a possible alliance to poor Lord Mallister, currently a prisoner of the Lannisters. It's clear Robb meant to get his lady mother to Seagard, to safety Whether he'd have commanded her re-marriage is another matter. I enjoyed reading your take on the text- this thread has been a pleasure for the combination of information, theorisingand courtesy. I'm looking forward to seeing where we go from here! As I was reading an essay on possible wildling blood in the Stark family, I came across the passage quoted below.Now, another poster here had mentioned that Robb, unless he won his rebellion was technically the vassal of the King of Westeros. Therefore unable to name his heir, as the title of Lord of Winterfell is in the gift of the king. So Robb's Will, especially in the event of his failed rebellion and his demise at the Twins, is actually a useless document. Here's Stannis, pretender to the Iron Throne, talking about Winterfell: Quote “Horpe and Massey aspire to your father's seat. Massey wants the wildling princess too. He once served my brother Robert as squire and acquired his appetite for female flesh. Horpe will take Val to wife if I command it, but it is battle he lusts for. As a squire he dreamed of a white cloak, but Cersei Lannister spoke against him and Robert passed him over. Perhaps rightly. Ser Richard is too fond of killing. Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler or the slayer?” (Jon IV, ADwD) At the end of the day, it's who sits on the Iron Throne who shall decide the bearer of the title Lord or Lady of Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said: You're so very welcome from my part! I had a great time rereading the Catelyn V chapter of ASOS in the light of a possible alliance to poor Lord Mallister, currently a prisoner of the Lannisters. It's clear Robb meant to get his lady mother to Seagard, to safety Whether he'd have commanded her re-marriage is another matter. I enjoyed reading your take on the text- this thread has been a pleasure for the combination of information, theorisingand courtesy. I'm looking forward to seeing where we go from here! As I was reading an essay on possible wildling blood in the Stark family, I came across the passage quoted below.Now, another poster here had mentioned that Robb, unless he won his rebellion was technically the vassal of the King of Westeros. Therefore unable to name his heir, as the title of Lord of Winterfell is in the gift of the king. So Robb's Will, especially in the event of his failed rebellion and his demise at the Twins, is actually a useless document. Here's Stannis, pretender to the Iron Throne, talking about Winterfell: At the end of the day, it's who sits on the Iron Throne who shall decide the bearer of the title Lord or Lady of Winterfell. I don't think it's that simple... Because all the lords who rose in rebellion against the rule of the IT are not just going to say, "now we're subjects of the IT again, bummer". Know what I mean? I think it's possible and even likely that some will do exactly that, but I think most will not be northerners but riverlanders like Blackwood and Bracken. Especially with Jon as Robb's heir. I think the argument that's been made many times here that the north would not accept a bastard oathbreaker as their king is complete rubbish. Mind you, I don't think Jon will necessarily remain in the position very long. Still, I do believe Robb named him, and I do believe the northern houses will accept him - at least the vast majority. And going back to the issue of the validity of a will written by a rebel king who lost the war and died will change depending on who is looking at the situation: the IT will see it as a worthless piece of paper parchment, and the northerners will see it as the will of their chosen king, and a will that was signed and sealed in view of some of them. As Jon said to Ygritte, "it's all in where you're standing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: I don't think it's that simple... Because all the lords who rose in rebellion against the rule of the IT are not just going to say, "now we're subjects of the IT again, bummer". Know what I mean? I think it's possible and even likely that some will do exactly that, but I think most will not be northerners but riverlanders like Blackwood and Bracken. Especially with Jon as Robb's heir. I think the argument that's been made many times here that the north would not accept a bastard oathbreaker as their king is complete rubbish. Mind you, I don't think Jon will necessarily remain in the position very long. Still, I do believe Robb named him, and I do believe the northern houses will accept him - at least the vast majority. And going back to the issue of the validity of a will written by a rebel king who lost the war and died will change depending on who is looking at the situation: the IT will see it as a worthless piece of paper parchment, and the northerners will see it as the will of their chosen king, and a will that was signed and sealed in view of some of them. As Jon said to Ygritte, "it's all in where you're standing". Right. Of course you're right. The desires of the northern lords are very important. Still, I'd like to introduce you to the new Royal advocate: http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/sigil-city-of-doors-nwn2-persistent-world/images/a/ae/Red_dragon_by_caiomm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160422211928 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just now, Prof. Cecily said: Right. Of course you're right. The desires of the northern lords are very important. Still, I'd like to introduce you to the new Royal advocate: http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/sigil-city-of-doors-nwn2-persistent-world/images/a/ae/Red_dragon_by_caiomm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160422211928 Link won't open for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Link won't open for some reason. Hmmmm. Are you using a phone? https://goo.gl/images/0rNZtK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just now, Prof. Cecily said: Hmmmm. Are you using a phone? https://goo.gl/images/0rNZtK Tablet. ETA: it worked now, very cool! Tks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just now, kissdbyfire said: Tablet. It's a weak joke- artwork of a powerful dragon showing off. Dracarys and all that, don't you know. I have the impression the dragons will be a dealbreaker in Westerosi politics, especially if they have a clutch of eggs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Oh, dear, I hope I haven't offended you, @kissdbyfire. My sense of humour tends to the freakish, but I mean no harm. The White Walkers, the Wildlings and the dragons are going to radically change the political map of northern Westeros. I can't imagine how it will all turn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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