40 Thousand Skeletons

Cat is definitely the heir named in Robb's will

348 posts in this topic

Hi @Elaena Targaryen, nice to see you around! 

Your post made me curious too, so I did a quick search on "oathbreaker" using A Search of Ice and Fire (all novels, TWoW, D&E, TRP, TPatQ) and got... 34 hits? Doesn't it seem like it's an incredibly low number? 

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On 2017-6-20 at 3:00 AM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Long story short, the only reasonable explanation is that the dagger was planted on purpose to help start the Wot5K, and the only one who could have planned for the assassin to fail was Bloodraven via warging summer and killing the guy himself. ;) 

And what? Did BR fall asleep during the most crucial moment in his plan? Because if Cat had ran out to the library with Robb, Summer Bloodraven would have arrived too late, and Bran would be dead. Seems like quite the risky plan, just as is counting on Bran not dying from his fall.

Edited by Darkstream

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Considering that many Houses followed Daemon Blackfyre, I don't really think that Westerosi lords are that opposed to following a bastard. Jon being a NW member complicates this of course, but Stannis also seemed to believe the North would follow Jon (and follow him in following Stannis, no less).

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4 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

And what? Did BR fall asleep during the most crucial moment in his plan? Because if Cat had ran out to the library with Robb, Summer Bloodraven would have arrived too late, and Bran would be dead. Seems like quite the risky plan, just as is counting on Bran not dying from his fall.

Good points. And the theory that Bloodraven wanted for Bran to fall or orchestrated it or influenced it or whatever never made sense to me b/c when Bran starts climbing Summer is clearly upset, barking his head off and all. :dunno:

 

2 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Considering that many Houses followed Daemon Blackfyre, I don't really think that Westerosi lords are that opposed to following a bastard. Jon being a NW member complicates this of course, but Stannis also seemed to believe the North would follow Jon (and follow him in following Stannis, no less).

Good point too. I had completely forgotten about that.

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20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hi @Elaena Targaryen, nice to see you around! 

Your post made me curious too, so I did a quick search on "oathbreaker" using A Search of Ice and Fire (all novels, TWoW, D&E, TRP, TPatQ) and got... 34 hits? Doesn't it seem like it's an incredibly low number? 

Hi kiss, it's good to see you too! Yea I've just been lurking occasionally.

Thanks for searching and yes that does seem really low.

The main case I recall off the top of my head that is relevant would be Maester Aemon being offered the crown even though he took similar vows to the NW as a maester. He turned it down and asked to be sent to the Wall to get away from court so his claim could not be used against his younger brother.

Now was it his refusal to be crowned, the people happy with Aegon's rule, being out of sight out of mind, double vows, taking the black, or whatever that worked? Like I said I haven't researched and I have a spotty memory.

13 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Considering that many Houses followed Daemon Blackfyre, I don't really think that Westerosi lords are that opposed to following a bastard. Jon being a NW member complicates this of course, but Stannis also seemed to believe the North would follow Jon (and follow him in following Stannis, no less).

Thank you! I forgot and this is important. Stannis felt Jon was the best shot to unite the north, and I don't think he was wrong. Stannis didn't see a problem releasing him from his vows. And you're right there are many cases of lords supporting bastards.

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On 2017-6-21 at 6:32 AM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I feel like she would be much less willing to burn Shireen for, say, a comatose Jon. We will have to wait for TWOW to find out. :D 

Or, say, to necessitate an army's ability to travel a couple of leagues, in a light snowfall.

...just saying. ;)

Quote

but I have long thought that Shireen is a big innocent container of Chekov's king's blood 

Heh heh. :lol:

Edited by Darkstream

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1 hour ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Davos says "As for the marriage, Tornmen was born of the same incest as Joffrey, and His Grace would sooner see Shireen dead than wed to such." so he seems to think the incest would be the true objection.

I agree that Stannis probably objects more to the incest thing than the bastard thing, but I don't know if he would still allow Shireen to marry a bastard not born of incest. Stannis does have some pretty stiff and proper ideas.

1 hour ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

I've always had the impression that Viserys fully intended to marry Dany and have children with her after he claimed the throne. Drogo was just a means to and end. Viserys did not consider their marriage valid and the child irrelevant. Dany belonged to him.

It makes sense that Viserys might have thought of Dany as his and planned to marry her at a later time, but it doesn't dismiss the idea that Dany and Drogo were married, enough that it is recognized in Essos and Westeros. That would make any child of their union legitimate. So that does not explain, to me anyway, why Viserys considered Rhaego to be a bastard. 

Now, he might have been using the term merely as an insult, which many people do in the series, and did not mean it literally.

1 hour ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

If you look into this further don't forget the term natural born and sometimes baseborn is used when discussing a bastard, then you have the Bastards of Wherever and searching the surnames.

Terms such as the Bastard of Winterfell, Bolton, Nightsong, Godsgrace, Driftmark, etc, did trigger in that search. Baseborn and natural born did not, so I might need to extend my research. Thanks for the idea!

1 hour ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

I hope you can research oath breakers as I would love to read it!

At a quick glance, there are not nearly so many times the term oathbreaker is used (compared to bastard), and it mostly comes up in correlation to Jon and Jaime, and what they think about them selves. I am hoping to look into it soon.

 

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9 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I agree that Stannis probably objects more to the incest thing than the bastard thing, but I don't know if he would still allow Shireen to marry a bastard not born of incest. Stannis does have some pretty stiff and proper ideas.

Well, Stannis is the only highborn we've seen so far that believes in a meritocracy... :)

 

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV 

"I am lowborn," Davos reminded him. "An upjumped smuggler. Your lords will never obey me."

"Then we will make new lords."

 

9 minutes ago, St Daga said:

It makes sense that Viserys might have thought of Dany as his and planned to marry her at a later time, but it doesn't dismiss the idea that Dany and Drogo were married, enough that it is recognized in Essos and Westeros. That would make any child of their union legitimate. So that does not explain, to me anyway, why Viserys considered Rhaego to be a bastard. 

Now, he might have been using the term merely as an insult, which many people do in the series, and did not mean it literally.

 

That's my take on it. 

 

 

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