40 Thousand Skeletons

Cat is definitely the heir named in Robb's will

395 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Arystin said:

I always assumed that the trap that Cat was caught in was being forced to sign the agreement, Rob stating that as King everyone should sign it gave Cat little choice but to sign it in front of everyone, especially as she has already been called a traitor once for releasing Jamie.

If she does not need to sign it, it at least takes away any opportunity she has to speak her mind to the other lords present.

Yes this is most people's assumption. As I have said a million times now, that is a super weak explanation. There is no need to trap Cat into not speaking her mind during the meeting or whatever. If Robb was really that concerned about Cat voicing her opinion, he could have just named Jon his heir and had everyone sign his will without Cat present. Robb is the one who summoned her to the meeting in the first place. Cat has no power. Robb is king and can do what he wants.

And the only person who called her a traitor was Karstark (who is now dead), because he was pissed off about Jaime killing his sons.

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 6/26/2017 at 11:17 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:
On 6/26/2017 at 11:05 PM, ravenous reader said:

Let's return to the direwolf, Grey Wind, as a barometer of Robb's true intentions.  Are you suggesting the direwolf is also being 'disingenuous' -- a 'master mummer' -- when he bares his teeth to Cat in displeasure?  If he hadn't approved of what Robb was saying (namely that Jon should be the heir), he would have snarled at Robb and licked Cat's fingers in appreciation, instead.  Wolves are not good liars.

I already addressed this earlier when you brought it up. I will copy and paste my earlier response:

Hi sweet peter -- obviously, your previous response failed to satisfy me, so here we are again... :)

Quote

I think you are incorrectly interpreting Grey Wind's behavior.

You presume too much, daring to insinuate I do not understand direwolf behavior (have you looked at my avatar pic..? ...the 'ravenous' part does not only refer to ravens... ;)).

Quote

Are Grey Wind and Robb telepathically linked, and Grey Wind constantly expressing Robb's inner emotions? Definitely!

Great.  We'll always have that 'telepathic' connection, you and I...

Quote

But you are wrongly associating Grey Wind's bared teeth with Cat's disagreement over Jon being the heir.

I disagree.

Quote

You said:

  Quote
  Quote

When Cat starts to argue against Jon's and therefore Ghost's authority as head of the pack, Grey Wind leaps up onto the grave at the foot of the king (hint hint) baring his teeth to her.

This is not totally correct.

OK, I'll give you that one.

Quote

When Cat starts to argue against Jon being the heir, Grey Wind at first does nothing. They continue to argue calmly for another 90 seconds or so after Cat says a Snow is not a Stark. It is only after Cat brings up Theon's betrayal and compares Theon to Jon that Robb gets angry. Robb had expected Cat to argue against Jon and was not angered by that alone.

Hmm... Now that's not 'totally correct' either.  Let me explain:

Quote

Here is the full quote:

  Quote
  Quote

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

Right at the start of the conversation, Robb's tone is 'sharp,' betraying that he's feeling rather testy and irritable with his mother, basically not in the mood for her characteristic brand of self-righteous nonsense (not really feeling conducive to making her his heir...but I suppose you will assert -- just to 'win' an argument, or failing that, as you're bound to do here, thwarting mine at every turn -- that this is dramatic flair of the highest order, worthy of Charles Dance, Judy Dench, and Varys...).

Robb's 'sharpness' at the beginning of the conversation is in synch with the sharp teeth of his direwolf bared against Cat at the end of the conversation, which can be interpreted as a palpable tension simmering between Robb and his mother throughout the conversation, which, however, erupts into an open display of aggression via the wolf, when Cat goes too far.  It's clear Cat sees Jon and any future offspring of his as strangers and potentially deadly enemies to the Starks, whereas Robb sees Jon as one of his own.  When Grey Wind finally leaps onto the tomb of the king, baring his teeth at her, this is an indication that Robb has had enough of his mother's hostility and seeks to swiftly put her in her place (by assuming that elevated position atop the tomb, the direwolf would be taller than her and quite intimidating; the elevated position also indicates Robb assuming the moral high ground with respect to his mother).  

On a symbolic level, as I explained to you previously, this gesture or pose has striking echoes of the Stark family crypt tableau, in which the direwolf sits at the foot of the Kings of the North / Kings of Winter, guarding them.  The sharp, bared teeth of the wolf is similar to the bared steel of the sword, also displayed as a warning to a stranger that they are not welcome in 'a Stark place,' as Bran refers to the crypts.  The upshot is that Cat in this moment is not only behaving as a stranger (also foreshadowing her Lady Stoneheart transformation!) but also perceived as a stranger to Stark interests, and accordingly the Starks, represented here by Robb and Grey Wolf, are not feeling very 'warm and fuzzy' towards her; in fact, they jointly reject her lame protestations.  Has Robb the 'kingly-trapper', 'hare-snarer,' 'master-mummer,' 'disingenuous-dazzler' extraordinaire fooled the direwolf as well?! ;)

Quote

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

“Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”

Jon is no Theon.  And Catelyn is no Stark. 

Edited by ravenous reader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”

Apologies if this came up already, but I don't understand how Jon's sons would have been any less of a threat to Robb's legacy than Bran or Rickon's sons would be, had they still been in the picture. 

I also hold the controversial opinion that bastards, like the Ironborn, are a self-fulfilling prophecy. Buried in the SSM archives somewhere, George said Daemon's main reason for rebelling was because he was tired of being treated like a second-class citizen. This probably also explains why Falia Flowers and possibly Aurane Waters sided against their families as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Apologies if this came up already, but I don't understand how Jon's sons would have been any less of a threat to Robb's legacy than Bran or Rickon's sons would be, had they still been in the picture. 

You're right.

Of all people Cat should have been perfectly aware of that, having the meeting with the Baratheon bros fresh in memory. Both proper and legitimate, they destroyed their dynasty all the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm actually not sure when Manderly learned Rickon was alive, but he wasn't one of the people who signed Robb's will.

Of course he was not. And yes, the timeline is fuzzy, at least for me. It's I don't understand why do you think only a few days transpired between Rickon being  sent to Skagos and Robb signing his will?.

Do you think it's normal for an inheritor to sign a will?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are contradicting yourself with your own argument about Grey Wind. :P 

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Right at the start of the conversation, Robb's tone is 'sharp,' betraying that he's feeling rather testy and irritable with his mother, basically not in the mood for her characteristic brand of self-righteous nonsense (not really feeling conducive to making her his heir...but I suppose you will assert -- just to 'win' an argument, or failing that, as you're bound to do here, thwarting mine at every turn -- that this is dramatic flair of the highest order, worthy of Charles Dance, Judy Dench, and Varys...).

Yes, Robb is indeed playing the master mummer, as Cat earlier described him doing in ASOS Catelyn II, when she was bagged like a hare in a snare. Robb had spent a lot of time (24/7) practicing acting like a king in the period leading up to this event, and his practice paid off in the form of well-honed mummery skills. In fact, your observations about Grey Wind support my theory. Yes, Robb's tone is sharp as soon as the topic of Jon comes up, and you would expect Grey Wind to act out in some corresponding manner if these feelings were genuine. Yet, Cat does not take note of Grey Wind doing anything until she brings up Theon and the murders of Bran and Rickon, an issue that Robb is certainly super emotional about, and those emotions overpowered his mummery in that moment and were expressed via Grey Wind leaping on top of the crypt.

7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Robb's 'sharpness' at the beginning of the conversation is in synch with the sharp teeth of his direwolf bared against Cat at the end of the conversation, which can be interpreted as a palpable tension simmering between Robb and his mother throughout the conversation, which, however, erupts into an open display of aggression via the wolf, when Cat goes too far.  It's clear Cat sees Jon and any future offspring of his as strangers and potentially deadly enemies to the Starks, whereas Robb sees Jon as one of his own.  When Grey Wind finally leaps onto the tomb of the king, baring his teeth at her, this is an indication that Robb has had enough of his mother's hostility and seeks to swiftly put her in her place (by assuming that elevated position atop the tomb, the direwolf would be taller than her and quite intimidating; the elevated position also indicates Robb assuming the moral high ground with respect to his mother).  

See, right here, this is you twisting the text to fit your interpretation. ;) 

Robb's sharpness was not in sync with Grey Wind's bared teeth at the end of the conversation. The opposite is true. Approximately 90 seconds passed in between Robb's initial sharpness and Grey Wind's reaction. It is quite clear that Grey Wind was reacting not to Cat's opinion of Jon, but to the subject of Theon murdering Bran and Rickon, a tragedy that Robb understandably blames himself for.

7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

On a symbolic level, as I explained to you previously, this gesture or pose has striking echoes of the Stark family crypt tableau, in which the direwolf sits at the foot of the Kings of the North / Kings of Winter, guarding them.  The sharp, bared teeth of the wolf is similar to the bared steel of the sword, also displayed as a warning to a stranger that they are not welcome in 'a Stark place,' as Bran refers to the crypts.  The upshot is that Cat in this moment is not only behaving as a stranger (also foreshadowing her Lady Stoneheart transformation!) but also perceived as a stranger to Stark interests, and accordingly the Starks, represented here by Robb and Grey Wolf, are not feeling very 'warm and fuzzy' towards her; in fact, they jointly reject her lame protestations.  Has Robb the 'kingly-trapper', 'hare-snarer,' 'master-mummer,' 'disingenuous-dazzler' extraordinaire fooled the direwolf as well?! ;)

No, he hasn't. ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Of course he was not. And yes, the timeline is fuzzy, at least for me. It's I don't understand why do you think only a few days transpired between Rickon being  sent to Skagos and Robb signing his will?.

Do you think it's normal for an inheritor to sign a will?

Not what I said. I think there were only a few days between Bran being discovered by the Liddle clan and Robb signing his will. So if anyone heard about Bran/Rickon being alive via the Liddles, they didn't have any time to get that news to any of the lords who were down south with Robb.

I doubt it is normal, and I don't know that Cat signed his will. I don't think she did. What is important is that she supports the decision and agrees to actually take command in the event of Robb's death. And that she actually knows she is supposed to take over in the event of Robb's death, in contrast with Jon who certainly is not aware of his hypothetical new status of heir to Winterfell and the north.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 6/27/2017 at 0:32 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

So in books where bloodline means everything, that's based on history where bloodline means everything, Robb is some modern aberration while still wearing a crown derived from his bloodline?

Robb was groomed as The heir to House Stark - "Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me" & "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born." - so he gives a shit about his bloodline because it gives him a claim.

Here are Robb's  views on succession, and he seems to care quite a bit.

Cat probably taught her children what she was taught -  "Yet I was also taught that the gods make kings, not the swords of men."

I would like to see any precedent at all where a king named someone heir because they have no claim. It defies the entire logic and foundation of their system.

This is all evidence that Robb cares, like Ned, about following the law, not about Stark blood. And I would like to see any precedent at all where all the living Starks were simultaneously wiped out in a big war, leaving the one remaining Stark with no trueborn children left to name as his heir. It doesn't defy the logic of their system. Someone has to inherit the kingdom. If there are no trueborn Starks left in the line of succession, then what are you supposed to do?

On 6/27/2017 at 0:32 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

Oh yes that's the right impression - which is what the problem was, look what happens to Lady Hornwood. It also highlights the chaos of what could happen with Cat or Jeyne.

No it doesn't. Lady Hornwood was traveling near Bolton lands with only "six tired men-at-arms" for protection. And regardless of her lack of protection, Ramsay's kidnapping and forced marriage made absolutely zero sense and no one had any reason to expect he would do that. What is the direct consequence of Ramsay's actions? Oh yeah, he is hunted down and killed. Or at least, that's what they attempted to do. Ramsay was clearly being guided, like Jojen, by visions sent by Bloodraven, and that's why his actions make no sense but somehow played out perfectly for his political career.

On 6/27/2017 at 0:32 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

I'm unclear on what you believe because you are so focused on your theory. Do you think the ruined castle was always named Oldstones or do you concede that the ruins are now called Oldstones but in the time of House Mudd the castle had a different unknown name? The latter was my point. I can't help that it may add more holes to a threadbare theory. :P

No, I don't think the castle was always named Oldstones. I don't know how you got that interpretation from what I said. The point is that Robb doesn't give a single fuck about Cat's answer to the question. He already knew the answer she would give. He is not curious about her knowledge of Oldstones. It is not a real question at all. It is the beginning of a ruse. Robb is playing a master mummer. Jon being the heir is a threadbare theory, frankly.

On 6/27/2017 at 0:32 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

I really wish I was better at explaining things but I can only recommend you read more history focusing on the social and cultural, anthropology and philosophy.

I really wish that I was better at explaining things, but I can only recommend you reread ASOIAF more times and pay attention to Robb's character development and all the trope-breaking going on.

On 6/27/2017 at 0:32 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

I'm not projecting anything on Cat since I'm not discussing her perspective as your theory revolves around Robb's perspective. Are you sure your not projecting your own opinions on Robb? Or is it the crow calling the raven black? I don't know since I don't frequent the board much lately so please don't get offended if I seem too blunt as I'm just very inarticulate. :) 

I am not projecting my own opinions on Robb. I would certainly prefer Jon over Cat, because I think Jon is a generally noble dude who was even willing to sacrifice his wife Ygritte for what he considers to be his sacred duty (maybe not the "right" choice, but still an admirable sense of willpower and duty), while I consider Cat to be generally a selfish bitch who fucked everything up. But she happens to be the selfish bitch who was named as Robb's heir. :P 

On 6/27/2017 at 0:32 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

You may feel the trap is weak, pointless, boring, disappointing nonsense but I think most would find a trap that gets Cat to agree to name Jon the Stark heir nothing short of miraculous. ;) 

Miraculous? Mayhaps. Clever? Worthy of a master mummer or a king? No. Necessary? Absolutely not and a giant waste of Robb's time. Cat has no power. Why trap her into agreeing that Jon is the heir? So she would be quiet during the meeting? How about you just don't even invite her to the meeting?

In fact, why was Cat invited to the meeting? If she isn't being named heir, there is really no reason for her to be there. Her only part in the war is to go to Seagard to be kept safe. Robb did not ask for anyone's counsel during this meeting, and she doesn't need to be present for the discussion of the attack on Moat Cailin or the signing of Robb's will.

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You are contradicting yourself with your own argument about Grey Wind. :P 

No, there's no contradiction or discrepancy involved.  The wolf and master are in harmony.

Quote

Yes, Robb is indeed playing the master mummer

You are projecting your own opinion onto the text.  I would say 'stubbornly-held' opinion, except I don't believe you're even genuinely convinced by your own argument -- at this point, you just want to 'win' the argument at all costs!   As I once asserted -- and I hold to my impression -- you are the most 'disingenuous' fictional or non-fictional party here...(on this thread, I mean... :P).

Quote

, as Cat earlier described him doing in ASOS Catelyn II, when she was bagged like a hare in a snare. Robb had spent a lot of time (24/7) practicing acting like a king in the period leading up to this event, and his practice paid off in the form of well-honed mummery skills.

Oh god...your facetiousness is unravelling itself apace...:rofl:

Quote

Yes, Robb's tone is sharp as soon as the topic of Jon comes up, and you would expect Grey Wind to act out in some corresponding manner if these feelings were genuine.

Why?  Robb is warning her with a sharp tone and cold expression; it's enough for a start.  When she doesn't comply (face it, Cat is irritating), his animal familiar finally attacks with a more overt, aggressive display.

Quote

Yet, Cat does not take note of Grey Wind doing anything until she brings up Theon and the murders of Bran and Rickon, an issue that Robb is certainly super emotional about, and those emotions overpowered his mummery in that moment and were expressed via Grey Wind leaping on top of the crypt.

Except she doesn't only mention Theon's crimes in isolation; she directly compares him to Jon, putting them on a par with each other.  That's why Grey Wind and by extension Robb is upset.

'Those emotions overpowered the mummery...' LOL -- I'm having serious doubts as to your own 'mummery'...

So, for a little comic relief, let's turn to marvel at the skills of a genuine 'master mummer':

 

Quote

See, right here, this is you twisting the text to fit your interpretation. ;) 

Not really; although that's always a good fall-back position in the age of post-modernity or post-factuality, or whatever the hell it is we're currently living in.  Rather, that's you, right here, trying to push my buttons!  ;)

Quote

Robb's sharpness was not in sync with Grey Wind's bared teeth at the end of the conversation.

Sharp tone = sharp teeth.  I think it's in sync, as a reflection of the pervasive, underlying tension between Robb and his mother, focused around the discussion about Jon.  Robb's expression was 'cold'; Grey Wind's teeth were 'bared'; all in keeping with Robb's initial 'sharp' tone.  

Quote

The opposite is true. Approximately 90 seconds passed

I've already explained that Robb via Grey Wind lost patience with Cat's needling and sought to put her in her place.  Make her feel spare; not make her the heir!  If you give me 90 seconds, I might lose my patience with you too...

Quote

in between Robb's initial sharpness and Grey Wind's reaction. It is quite clear that Grey Wind was reacting not to Cat's opinion of Jon, but to the subject of Theon murdering Bran and Rickon, a tragedy that Robb understandably blames himself for.

Grasping at straws... How much longer are you going to keep this up?  You're already on page 20 (and I can't believe I'm encouraging you in this foolhardiness...)!  ;)

Edited by ravenous reader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

No, there's no contradiction or discrepancy involved.  The wolf and master are in harmony.

You are projecting your own opinion onto the text.  I would say 'stubbornly-held' opinion, except I don't believe you're even genuinely convinced by your own argument -- at this point, you just want to 'win' the argument at all costs!   As I once asserted -- and I hold to my impression -- you are the most 'disingenuous' fictional or non-fictional party here...(on this thread, I mean... :P).

Oh god...your facetiousness is unravelling itself apace...:rofl:

Why?  Robb is warning her with a sharp tone and cold expression; it's enough for a start.  When she doesn't comply (face it, Cat is irritating), his animal familiar finally attacks with a more overt, aggressive display.

Except she doesn't only mention Theon's crimes in isolation; she directly compares him to Jon, putting them on a par with each other.  That's why Grey Wind and by extension Robb is upset.

'Those emotions overpowered the mummery...' LOL -- I'm having serious doubts as to your own 'mummery'...

So, for a little comic relief, let's turn to marvel at the skills of a genuine 'master mummer':

 

Not really; although that's always a good fall-back position in the age of post-modernity or post-factuality, or whatever the hell it is we're currently living in.  Rather, that's you, right here, trying to push my buttons!  ;)

Sharp tone = sharp teeth.  I think it's in sync, as a reflection of the pervasive, underlying tension between Robb and his mother, focused around the discussion about Jon.  Robb's expression was 'cold'; Grey Wind's teeth were 'bared'; all in keeping with Robb's initial 'sharp' tone.  

I've already explained that Robb via Grey Wind lost patience with Cat's needling and sought to put her in her place.  Make her feel spare; not make her the heir!  If you give me 90 seconds, I might lose my patience with you too...

Grasping at straws... How much longer are you going to keep this up?  You're already on page 20 (and I can't believe I'm encouraging you in this foolhardiness...)!  ;)

Me oh my... OK let me see if I can break this shit down.

I am not projecting my own opinion into the text. I am quoting Cat. She is the one who earlier declared Robb to have the cunning worthy of a master mummer.

Quote

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king. Catelyn saw no choice but to take Jeyne Westerling's hands. "I have a new daughter," she said, more stiffly than she'd intended. She kissed the terrified girl on both cheeks. "Be welcome to our hall and hearth."

Sharp tone does not equal sharp teeth. There was approximately 90 seconds in between Robb's initial sharp tone and Grey Wind leaping onto the crypt and baring his teeth.

I am not grasping at straws, but I would argue that the rest of you are. I am not being facetious here. I am employing a good deal of humor because I know pretty much no one agrees with me, and my OP was unusually snarky because it was mostly just a response from another thread that I copy+pasted to start my own better thread. But I seriously think Cat was named the heir and that the idea of Jon being named is absurd.

I seriously, seriously think it is crazy that most people on this forum think Jon is the heir. And I find it ultra-crazy that most people who have read my theory on Bloodraven sending Bran's assassin don't immediately realize that it is the correct answer.

I am not trying to win arguments. I am trying to figure out what the hell is going on in asoiaf. If someone actually convinces me I am wrong about something, I am not going to keep arguing against them just for the sake of "winning" the argument. The fact is, all of your attempts to convince me that Jon is the heir have been super weak, probably because you are all wrong.

:cheers: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
August 06, 2000
Jon Snow

I have a question, since Robb actually legitimized Jon and named him his heir for Winterfell and the North before the Red Wedding (granted no one knows about this and is still alive or free, the Greatjon knows as does Edmure, but Idont see them getting out of the Twins any time soon and Catelyn would probably die before telling anyone) does this make Jon's rejection of Stannis' offer moot?

Edmure and the Greatjon are prisoners, true... but you are forgetting the envoys that Robb sent to Howland Reed... Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Jason Mallister... they are all alive and free.

As to what is and is not moot... the key point is, only a =king= can legitimize a bastard......

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Jon_Snow 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said:
August 06, 2000
Jon Snow

I have a question, since Robb actually legitimized Jon and named him his heir for Winterfell and the North before the Red Wedding (granted no one knows about this and is still alive or free, the Greatjon knows as does Edmure, but Idont see them getting out of the Twins any time soon and Catelyn would probably die before telling anyone) does this make Jon's rejection of Stannis' offer moot?

Edmure and the Greatjon are prisoners, true... but you are forgetting the envoys that Robb sent to Howland Reed... Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Jason Mallister... they are all alive and free.

As to what is and is not moot... the key point is, only a =king= can legitimize a bastard......

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Jon_Snow 

Neat. I assume you are asserting this as proof Jon was named heir? But alas, this statement gives us basically zero information. What was GRRM supposed to do, reveal that cat is the heir right there in his response?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/7/2017 at 11:44 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I recently posted this response in a thread about Robb's heir, and it was pretty fucking brilliant if I do say so myself ;). But everyone has ignored it so far, obviously because they want to suffer from delusions and not find out who Robb named as his heir simply by reading this fantastic explanation! So I have started my own thread for everyone to talk about what a genius I am, and revel in the knowledge that Cat is the heir named in Robb's will. :cheers: Enjoy.

So... Robb successfully caught Cat in a trap. What?! A trap?? Yes!! :D A TRAP!!

What was this trap? Let's rewind to earlier in the chapter, to their discussion of Robb's heir. Upon arriving at Oldstones on their way to the Twins, Robb goes off on his own (offscreen) and Cat finds him standing over the grave of King Tristifer IV Mudd. The exchange starts with Robb possibly feigning ignorance about the locale:

Really Robb? You don't know what castle you're at? You haven't known for days what castle you would be arriving at on your slow march to the Twins? You haven't been looking at a map every single day to chart the progress of your army and be ready for an attack? Maybe... But I think Robb is probably feigning ignorance here, and it continues, when Robb... springs the trap! This seemingly innocuous question gets the ball rolling:

And then they argue about the Night's Watch and bastards and the Blackfyres and precedent for a minute, and then we get to the ending of their heated conversation, Cat confronting the realities of Arya being dead and Robb being in charge:

The conversation ends with Robb basically telling Cat, I can name Jon if I want to, I am the King, and you have failed to name a reasonable alternative heir.

So let's back up and quickly re-analyze what just happened assuming that Robb knew what castle he was standing in and whose grave he was next to, as well as the fact that King Tristifer IV was failed by his heir. He could have easily asked someone for this info if he didn't know it already. Here we go:

  • Robb first initiated the private conversation in that particular locale by wandering off on his own, effectively luring Cat there.
  • Then when Cat arrives, Robb asks what castle they are in and whose grave he is standing over, fully knowing that Cat will tell him it is King Tristifer IV, a king who according to legend was failed by his heir.
  • And then Robb immediately follows it up by saying His heir failed him, and starts lamenting the fact that Jeyne is not yet pregnant, his obviously planned response.
  • Then he talks about how Tyrion is now in a position to claim Winterfell, something that only recently happened (about 3 weeks prior to this conversation), prompting Cat to start listing off all the most viable heirs. Of course, Robb already knows that he can dismiss any of the closest relatives Cat can name on the basis they are not from Winterfell or even the North, and so he does and says that Jon is the only solution.
  • As a last resort, Cat brings up the matter of Arya, and Robb declares Arya to be dead and Cat to be delusional.
  • Finally, Cat says she cannot support naming Jon heir, and Robb says he doesn't need her support, he can do what he wants.

Of course, the statement that Robb doesn't need to ask for Cat's support is a bit disingenuous, because although he doesn't need her support to choose any other person in the world, he does need Cat's support to name Cat as his heir. You obviously can't force someone to rule your kingdom for you after you're dead. So ironically, in direct contrast with that statement from Robb, their whole conversation was just a clever trap specifically to get Cat's support.

And now, if we take another look at the quote from the signing of the will, everything makes perfect sense. The only other person Robb could possibly name as heir who meets his criteria is Cat. Cat wouldn't have gone along with this decision willingly, but Robb makes it clear through their not-so-spontaneous conversation over the grave of King Tristifer that the only other viable choice in Robb's mind is Jon Snow, a "folly" which Cat, as she vehemently stated, cannot support. Cat has been quite effectively trapped into supporting Robb's choice of Cat as heir. And so to end the chapter, Robb first commands that his new heir be sent to Seagard after the wedding to be kept safe, and then he has his lords sign a document declaring Cat his heir.

Nice trap Robb! You caught a Cat, just like Arya does! I bet that your trap at Moat Cailin would have in fact worked just as well, had you survived to pull it off.

TADA! :rofl: 

As for the whole "missing Arya" thing (everyone in the other thread was discussing how Arya is "conspicuously left out" of Robb's line regarding his heir). Have you guys considered that Robb may have simply been reiterating the recent events that changed the line of succession and thus lead to him needing to name an heir? Arya went missing and Jon went to the Wall like 10+ months earlier and neither of those changed who the heir was because Bran was the heir the whole time. But the deaths of Bran and Rickon were only about 3 months earlier, and the marriage of Sansa to Tyrion only happened days earlier, and those events actually directly change who the heir is. And until those recent events transpired, Robb would not have "left chaos in his wake" like Balon, because Bran was obviously still the heir. So you could simply interpret Robb's words to mean: Hey guys, now that my heir Bran is dead, and the 2 people directly in line after him are dead/married to Tyrion, I am naming a new heir. I didn't bother to mention Jon or Arya just now, because we had already written them off as candidates a while ago.

Other random points:

  • He was hoping to get his wife pregnant, and Cat becoming regent would be the best way to protect his future child, the regency being an aspect often left out of discussion about Robb's heir.
  • Regardless of who was "really" the "best" choice, in Robb's mind Cat was the best choice. Robb wanted WF and the north to be controlled by someone loyal to House Stark. Cat is definitely the most loyal person out of anyone, and she maintains control of the Riverlands if she is regent, AND she is guaranteed to act in the best interest of Robb's child. Additionally, Robb's heir has to be politically practical, and Cat is the only person who would maintain the political status quo in the North. If you name someone like Wyman Manderly as a regent you are both handing him huge power while at the same time pissing off all his rivals.
  • Unlike Jon and other northerners, Cat as heir/regent can maintain the Stark-Tully alliance.
  • Cat ends up with Robb's crown.
  • Jon is in the Night's Watch, and many northerners would have viewed him as an oath breaker in addition to being a bastard.
  • Any explanation that names a person other than Cat as heir inherently fails to explain what the "trap" is that Cat referred to at the end of the chapter.

TL;DR: It was Cat, you stupid :P. Cat said that Robb trapped her just like Arya traps cats, and that trap was making her agree to being Robb's heir. Any other answer is fucking ridiculous  :dunce: :P:D

 

Well, if she's his heir, it doesn't matter now, she's a vengeful zombie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

On a symbolic level, as I explained to you previously, this gesture or pose has striking echoes of the Stark family crypt tableau, in which the direwolf sits at the foot of the Kings of the North / Kings of Winter, guarding them.  The sharp, bared teeth of the wolf is similar to the bared steel of the sword, also displayed as a warning to a stranger that they are not welcome in 'a Stark place,' as Bran refers to the crypts.  The upshot is that Cat in this moment is not only behaving as a stranger (also foreshadowing her Lady Stoneheart transformation!) but also perceived as a stranger to Stark interests, and accordingly the Starks, represented here by Robb and Grey Wolf, are not feeling very 'warm and fuzzy' towards her; in fact, they jointly reject her lame protestations.  Has Robb the 'kingly-trapper', 'hare-snarer,' 'master-mummer,' 'disingenuous-dazzler' extraordinaire fooled the direwolf as well?! ;)

Jon is no Theon.  And Catelyn is no Stark. 

This reminded me of Cat's thoughts here "Let the kings of winter have their cold crypt under the earth, Catelyn thought. The Tullys drew their strength from the river, and it was to the river they returned when their lives had run their course."

15 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This is all evidence that Robb cares, like Ned, about following the law, not about Stark blood.

The law I showed was succession laws and it is designed to protect their blood right, it is all about your family. It's a male-preference primogeniture in a hereditary monarchy. Robb cares very much about legal rights which equals the family bloodline in this system.

Quote

And I would like to see any precedent at all where all the living Starks were simultaneously wiped out in a big war, leaving the one remaining Stark with no trueborn children left to name as his heir.

I have absolutely no idea why I'm required to supply this information but off the top of my head.... Bael the Bard's bastard became Lord Stark when the line was on the verge of extinction.

Quote

 It doesn't defy the logic of their system. Someone has to inherit the kingdom. If there are no trueborn Starks left in the line of succession, then what are you supposed to do?

Um... use the bastard, or cousins, or look at other noble houses that may have blood claims, or Sansa, or.....

Quote

No it doesn't. Lady Hornwood was traveling near Bolton lands with only "six tired men-at-arms" for protection. And regardless of her lack of protection, Ramsay's kidnapping and forced marriage made absolutely zero sense and no one had any reason to expect he would do that. What is the direct consequence of Ramsay's actions?

Lady Hornwood's "protection" is irrelevant since I'm sure he would have found a way. The consequences of Ramsay's actions.... let's see.... he was legitimized, he's the heir and the Castleton of the Dreadfort, he's the Lord of Hornwood, he married "Arya Stark" and is the Lord of Winterfell.... 

Quote

No, I don't think the castle was always named Oldstones. I don't know how you got that interpretation from what I said.

The point is that Robb doesn't give a single fuck about Cat's answer to the question. He already knew the answer she would give. He is not curious about her knowledge of Oldstones. It is not a real question at all. It is the beginning of a ruse. Robb is playing a master mummer. Jon being the heir is a threadbare theory, frankly.

I didn't get that impression, I just wasn't sure. It also wasn't clear if you were missing my point or just disagreeing with repetition.

Your point, which mayhaps I get as it was in the OP and I found it debatable, will have to suffice as your disagreement to my argument. I agree to disagree.

Quote

I really wish that I was better at explaining things, but I can only recommend you reread ASOIAF more times and pay attention to Robb's character development and all the trope-breaking going on.

Tut-tut! I can only assume since your being rude that I offended you and it was not my intention at all. It was meant in a 'if you are interested' way. I mean no one can really expect to give or receive a deeper understanding of such complex foreign concepts on a message board. I'm sure Martin can explain it better than me.

Westeros isn't medieval England but, from my readings in history, one of the things that impresses you is that the medieval mindset was very different and I'm trying to convey that. I think that is lost in modern fantasy. While they may be riding horses and living in castles, it is a very modern setting. You see peasants sassing princesses, religion being disregarded and lots of things that happen. I can't say I've done a complete medieval mindset. I haven't. In fact, if I had I think it would be too alien. But I've tried to convey some of it. One of the aspects is that they didn't have our current sense of nationalism. They weren't English; they were citizens of a town or members of their family. They didn't have the sense of country that we do. The question of legitimacy of kingship was very important. The king was seen to be an avatar of god, sent by the god, "by the grace of god" where "his grace" comes from.

Quote

 

I am not projecting my own opinions on Robb. I would certainly prefer Jon over Cat, because I think Jon is a generally noble dude who was even willing to sacrifice his wife Ygritte for what he considers to be his sacred duty (maybe not the "right" choice, but still an admirable sense of willpower and duty), while I consider Cat to be generally a selfish bitch who fucked everything up. But she happens to be the selfish bitch who was named as Robb's heir. :P 

Miraculous? Mayhaps. Clever? Worthy of a master mummer or a king? No. Necessary? Absolutely not and a giant waste of Robb's time. Cat has no power. Why trap her into agreeing that Jon is the heir? So she would be quiet during the meeting? How about you just don't even invite her to the meeting?

In fact, why was Cat invited to the meeting? If she isn't being named heir, there is really no reason for her to be there. Her only part in the war is to go to Seagard to be kept safe. Robb did not ask for anyone's counsel during this meeting, and she doesn't need to be present for the discussion of the attack on Moat Cailin or the signing of Robb's will.

 

Maybe to show she does not challenge the bastard being legitimized since it's well known how she feels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Neat. I assume you are asserting this as proof Jon was named heir? But alas, this statement gives us basically zero information. What was GRRM supposed to do, reveal that cat is the heir right there in his response?

No, I think he does not expect us to find the heir debatable. What we are meant to debate is whether Robb or Stannis had the right to legitimize Jon and if it will stand when all is said and done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.