40 Thousand Skeletons

Cat is definitely the heir named in Robb's will

395 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

MAYBE 15 years... if Cat gets pregnant shortly after the will is signed and then has a daughter as her first child. What if she waited 1 more year to re-marry, had 2 more sons and then her next eldest daughter? That would put it past 20 years and was certainly an obvious possibility. The point is that it is not politically practical to tell your new heir that he may need to wait 20 years or more to start having children/heirs of his own. Who would be Jon's heir until then? Nobody? You are back in the same situation, with everyone dangerously plotting what to do if Jon is killed. Marriages and children are extremely valuable political capital, and you are suggesting that Robb would basically kneecap Jon's reign by taking this political capital away from him for the next 2 decades.

Is it the best idea? No. I've already said this.

But can you or anyone come up with anything better for securing the alliance between the North and the Riverlands? I can't. Jon's lack of Tully blood is a big problem should someone who's more appealing than a Lannister take the Iron Throne. Cat is resigned after the will is finalized and she's not angry at Robb's decision. We also have some mystery reason for why GRRM didn't just come out and state the obvious. Just by Catelyn's reaction, I have to think that Robb addressed this in some way because her resignation doesn't follow otherwise. Catelyn chews on things she can't change until they end up eating her in turn, so I don't see why she wouldn't do it with Robb's will if she didn't agree on some level.

Betrothals often come to naught and Westeros is well aware of this. None of the following betrothals ever materialized: Robert/Lyanna, Brandon/Catelyn, Sansa/Joffrey, Arianne/Viserys, Sansa/Willas, Robb/Frey girl, Arya/what-his-name Frey...

The betrothal is enough to secure the alliance and everyone knows things can change in the meantime. A never-to-materialize betrothal was all that was necessary for Walder to let Robb pass and join him.

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1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Is it the best idea? No. I've already said this.

But can you or anyone come up with anything better for securing the alliance between the North and the Riverlands? I can't. Jon's lack of Tully blood is a big problem should someone who's more appealing than a Lannister take the Iron Throne. Cat is resigned after the will is finalized and she's not angry at Robb's decision. We also have some mystery reason for why GRRM didn't just come out and state the obvious. Just by Catelyn's reaction, I have to think that Robb addressed this in some way because her resignation doesn't follow otherwise. Catelyn chews on things she can't change until they end up eating her in turn, so I don't see why she wouldn't do it with Robb's will if she didn't agree on some level.

Betrothals often come to naught and Westeros is well aware of this. None of the following betrothals ever materialized: Robert/Lyanna, Brandon/Catelyn, Sansa/Joffrey, Arianne/Viserys, Sansa/Willas, Robb/Frey girl, Arya/what-his-name Frey...

The betrothal is enough to secure the alliance and everyone knows things can change in the meantime. A never-to-materialize betrothal was all that was necessary for Walder to let Robb pass and join him.

LOL I can...

CAT! :rofl: 

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2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL I can...

CAT! :rofl: 

Other posters have said better than I why this wouldn't work.

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1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

 

Bull shit. Of course he has to name a new heir. Cat clearly wasn't going to along with the idea of Tyrion claiming Winterfell, which is the context for this conversation. Sansa has just been married to Tyrion, and that prompted Robb to name a new heir in Sansa's place. There was no work or trickery or "maneuvering" to get Cat to agree to that supposition. That does not, in any way, constitute a trap.

Right. He has to name an heir, that is the device that he trapped Cat with once he got her to acknowledge it. Once she agreed that he must name an heir, she could not "escape" because she could not offer any better (or, more suitable) suggestions than Jon. She was caught the moment she engaged in this conversation, which, as you have pointed out, she was tricked into (the location and questions about the tomb). She even knew it.

Quote

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was.

 

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Additionally, why did all the other lords already know that Cat was being sent to Seagard before Cat knew? Cat assumes it was because people were angry about her freeing Jaime, but this doesn't seem to be the case, and frankly the pov characters almost always assume things incorrectly. The more likely answer is that everyone knew Cat was being sent to Seagard because Robb had already discussed naming Cat his heir with them, and they agreed that Seagard would be the best place for her.

Why doesn't it seem to be the case? Why did lord Karstark kill the two boys? Wasn't he furious that he was robbed of justice when she freed Jaime? Surely other lords were also genuinely upset with her meddling. And another thing, we never see her think/assume she is the heir in her own POV. But your entire argument is that she does think/assume this and hence she feels trapped. By your own argument, POV characters almost always assume things incorrectly. So if most assumptions are incorrect; is she feeling trapped because she assumes (incorrectly) that she is heir or is she feeling trapped because she assumes (incorrectly) that Jon was named heir and she couldn't do anything about it? Either way, are you saying her assumption that she is trapped is false? Come on, bud. :)

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What I want to know is why would anyone in the Riverlands accept Jon as their King? 

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2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You are basically saying that Robb's royal command qualifies as a "trap".

Yes. Robb's trap was having her swear her loyalty as his subject, not as his mother, and on that he ordered her away, as opposed to allowing her to be his counsel and Envoy. Also, her Safety is paramount to ensure the loyalty of the Riverlords as he heads north, after Naming Jon, the only person alive with the blood of Eddard Stark, as his Heir. That WAS the trap. 

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Sorry, but that feels like a total cop out and it disregards any reasonable interpretation of that last line:

Everything feels like a cop out after more than a half a decade between books and over 2 decades since the beginning of the series, not to mention millions of person-hours spent picking apart every last word over 5 novels. This does not make it probable, even  

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36 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

What I want to know is why would anyone in the Riverlands accept Jon as their King? 

Why would anyone in the North accept Cat as their Queen? When she remarried, why follow him?

Interesting that nobody has mentioned the importance of Stark blood in WF.

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3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes. Robb's trap was having her swear her loyalty as his subject, not as his mother, and on that he ordered her away, as opposed to allowing her to be his counsel and Envoy. Also, her Safety is paramount to ensure the loyalty of the Riverlords as he heads north, after Naming Jon, the only person alive with the blood of Eddard Stark, as his Heir. That WAS the trap.

ASOS Catelyn I

"I did," Catelyn said firmly. "I understood what I was doing and knew it was treasonous. If you fail to punish me, men will believe that we connived together to free Jaime Lannister. It was mine own act and mine alone, and I alone must answer for it. Put me in the Kingslayer's empty irons, and I will wear them proudly, if that is how it must be."

Catelyn not only knew that Robb would have to full-King-style on her as early as the beginning of the book, she advised it herself. No trap/trick here.

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If Robb named Cat as heir even as regent he would be showing himself a fool. Catelyn does NOT have a following among the Northern Lord nor any military strength. If and only if she married a Northern Lord could that work and that would pose other problems.

He probably did name Cat as a co regent for any child of Jeyne's but he could very well have named Jon as co-regent or perhaps Maester Luwin or one of the Mormants. He might have nominated Blackfish as a regent, but he has never been to the North so not a good choice.

As I have pointed out before Catelyn's folly in suggesting a Royce heir is essentially nominating Black Walder Frey as heir since I doubt that it is by accident that we are told that Walder Frey's first wife was Perrerra Royce. 

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6 hours ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Why would anyone in the North accept Cat as their Queen? When she remarried, why follow him?

Interesting that nobody has mentioned the importance of Stark blood in WF.

Hey!

22 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Intriguing, by the way, that Robb would do such daring, shocking, unprecedented move as naming his mother (no relation to House Stark) as heir to Winterfell, essentially disowning a 8000-years-old dynasty (his own dynasty), and Cat... never comments. (...)

 

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Posted (edited)

Oh dear! We really need the next book to put an end to these tinfoil theories. If Robb's will is produced in the next books, there's no doubt in my mind that Jon was named his heir in case Jeyne did not give him a child. And the lengths people go to find a hidden meaning or clue in every little word is becoming down right rediculous. By trap, Cat meant that Robb put her in a position where she had no choice but to accept Robb's will in the matter, which was to name Jon his heir. 

Edited by teej6

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3 hours ago, teej6 said:

Oh dear! We really need the next book to put an end to these tinfoil theories. If Robb's will is produced in the next books, there's no doubt in my mind that Jon was named his heir in case Jeyne did not give him a child.

This is the only thing that makes the most narrative sense, not just logical.  Catelyn always had a fear that Jon would somehow usurp her own children's inheritance rights and most readers probably thought that was kinda irrational at the time.  It's not so irrational now is it?  It makes perfect sense why George would circle back to that idea and have Catelyn confronted with that very thing.  I don't know for sure what the will means for Jon, but I don't think his arc is about leadership that was destined, or manufactured by Rhaegar, or willed to him.  It's leadership because of his choices in spite of all those things, not because of them.  Catelyn being the heir makes no narrative sense.  It doesn't accomplish anything in the broader story.  Besides she kinda dead-ish right now, which means we're back to square one in finding an heir.  And LSH is with the BwB, Gendry, and Brienne right now.  If any Stark is going to cross her path it's most likely going to be Arya., who is relevant to especially the BwB and Gendry.  We should see Arya coming back to Westeros very soon.

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During the time of drawing up his will, Robb is very in synch with his direwolf, from whose behavior we may derive some clues as to Robb's state of mind in the matter.  In fact, the implication may be that he's 'warging' Grey Wind a lot, which means he'd have a telepathic connection to his other siblings via their direwolves, including Jon/Ghost who is not only the first born of the pups, but also the alpha wolf leader of the pack, as indicated symbolically by his having 'opened his eyes' and led the way out of the dead mother direwolf (Lyanna) before the other siblings.  When Cat starts to argue against Jon's and therefore Ghost's authority as head of the pack, Grey Wind leaps up onto the grave at the foot of the king (hint hint) baring his teeth to her.  This is like the position in the Winterfell crypt of the stone direwolves defending the graves of their Lord of Winterfell / King of Winter masters from strangers -- and Cat in this moment is behaving as a stranger who does not have Stark interests at heart, but only her own selfish hurts and blinding jealousies.  Despite marrying into the family, she is a Tully; she does not share Stark blood, unlike Jon.  The wolf's bared teeth also echoes the Lords of Winterfell baring their steel swords across their laps -- in death as in life --  in order to signal that someone is unwelcome in a 'Stark place,' signifying that Cat's opinions on the matter as to the succession once Robb likewise lies cold in his grave are unwelcome.

Quote

 He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

    “Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

    “Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

    “Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

    “No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

    Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”


    “So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . .”

    “. . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”

    “I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it.”

    “I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

    What have I done? Catelyn thought wearily, as she stood alone by Tristifer’s stone sepulcher. First I anger Edmure, and now Robb, but all I have done is speak the truth. Are men so fragile they cannot bear to hear it? She might have wept then, had not the sky begun to do it for her. It was all she could do to walk back to her tent, and sit there in the silence.

    In the days that followed, Robb was everywhere and anywhere; riding at the head of the van with the Greatjon, scouting with Grey Wind, racing back to Robin Flint and the rearguard. Men said proudly that the Young Wolf was the first to rise each dawn and the last to sleep at night, but Catelyn wondered whether he was sleeping at all. He grows as lean and hungry as his direwolf.
 

 

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2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This is the only thing that makes the most narrative sense, not just logical.  Catelyn always had a fear that Jon would somehow usurp her own children's inheritance rights and most readers probably thought that was kinda irrational at the time.  It's not so irrational now is it?  It makes perfect sense why George would circle back to that idea and have Catelyn confronted with that very thing.  I don't know for sure what the will means for Jon, but I don't think his arc is about leadership that was destined, or manufactured by Rhaegar, or willed to him.  It's leadership because of his choices in spite of all those things, not because of them.  Catelyn being the heir makes no narrative sense.  It doesn't accomplish anything in the broader story.  Besides she kinda dead-ish right now, which means we're back to square one in finding an heir.  And LSH is with the BwB, Gendry, and Brienne right now.  If any Stark is going to cross her path it's most likely going to be Arya., who is relevant to especially the BwB and Gendry.  We should see Arya coming back to Westeros very soon.

This. And that's why I don't think Jon will ever be Jon Targaryen, and not even Jon Stark. Sure, he'll help in some capacity - regent is the most likely imo. But he'll keep his name and he'll lead those who are already following him, those who are following him because of the choices he's made. 

Jon Snow, King of Winter. 

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Robb would need to be totally a Tully to make such a misguided decision as to name Cat his heir - whenever I think of that it reminds me of the scene of Hoster Tully's funeral when Edmure couldn't hit the target with his arrows... I know I'm being unfair, but Cat has been unfair to Jon all his life - so I think she was trapped by the very fact she had dreaded all her life - Jon as King in the North/Lord of Winterfell instead of one of her children. Who in their right mind would put his seal to the will naming Cat Queen in the North? Why would Robb even think of naming someone without a drop of Stark blood as his heir? The argument that Jon is not a Tully and does not have blood relations with the Vale and Riverrun can easily be countered by his marrying someone suitable...Not to mention the fact that there always must be a Stark in Winterfell. 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This is the only thing that makes the most narrative sense, not just logical.  Catelyn always had a fear that Jon would somehow usurp her own children's inheritance rights and most readers probably thought that was kinda irrational at the time.  It's not so irrational now is it?  It makes perfect sense why George would circle back to that idea and have Catelyn confronted with that very thing.  I don't know for sure what the will means for Jon, but I don't think his arc is about leadership that was destined, or manufactured by Rhaegar, or willed to him.  It's leadership because of his choices in spite of all those things, not because of them.  Catelyn being the heir makes no narrative sense.  It doesn't accomplish anything in the broader story.  Besides she kinda dead-ish right now, which means we're back to square one in finding an heir.  And LSH is with the BwB, Gendry, and Brienne right now.  If any Stark is going to cross her path it's most likely going to be Arya., who is relevant to especially the BwB and Gendry.  We should see Arya coming back to Westeros very soon.

I am rather late to this party and some very poignant points have already been mentioned, but yeah, I am thinking the same things about both your Jon comment and your LSH is basically already dead so what the hell would this do for the overall narrative?

We don't see LSH wearing the crown, she still has "tears" in her eyes, no one in the BWB seems to be referring to her with any "formal" title. There are just far too many holes this opens up rather than closing in.

There must always be a STARK in Winterfell!!!:commie:

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This. And that's why I don't think Jon will ever be Jon Targaryen, and not even Jon Stark. Sure, he'll help in some capacity - regent is the most likely imo. But he'll keep his name and he'll lead those who are already following him, those who are following him because of the choices he's made. 

Jon Snow, King of Winter. 

Yup. I agree with the twos-of-you's here. Jon is actually being put in to place by others who vote him there, or move him there, etc, based on his actions and decisions, rather than him thinking it is something owed to him.

  • Longclaw
  • his stewardship with Mormont
  • his ranging with Qhoran
  • his finding the cache via Ghost
  • his winning the LC position
  • the plans Stannis has for him (even though Jon declines certain ones because he thinks he has to because he is a bastard)

Long live Jon Snow, King of Winter!

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

:bowdown:

You obviously are smarter than me. I should give up.

It has nothing to do with my intelligence, but Robb making Cat "heir" absolutely nonsensical to all he argues as reasons why he should name an heir, what type of heir he should pick, and basically would make him an utter moron. She is not a Stark blood. Her children with a second husband certainly aren't Starks. She caused the whole Karstark issue by letting Jaime go, and would not be a ruler or leader that Northerners would rally behind for her non-Stark issue by a second husband. 

You're not the first to propose this, but it still remains nonsensical from Robb's POV and arguments. Now, I can see why people stumble over the "trap" thought of Cat and wonder "What's the trap?" even though the trap has been well explained already in the thread. But the proposal that this line makes Cat the heir while that totally screams against anything that Robb would do, against any political, military and bloodline logic makes it a theory that has nothing to do with how George writes. George writes in keeping of a character, not to do a "tada here's the white rabbit I conjured out of thin air in my hat"... He doesn't do "surprise! surprise!" for surprise's sake alone. 

And exactly because this nonsensical tinfoil has been proposed by at least one person whenever there's a thread about Robb's will the past years, I'm not debating it anymore, and just saying "no". Yes, you're beating a dead long drowned horse already.

Edited by sweetsunray

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22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

See people, THIS is at least a logical response to my OP. Thank you kissdbyfire. But I am fairly certain you are still wrong ;) 

No, you are! :fencing:

 

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

There are 2 pieces of information revealed to Cat at the end of the meeting/chapter. The first is that she is being sent to Seagard, and the second is the identity of Robb's heir. Let's examine Cat's reactions to both pieces of information. First, Seagard:

So Cat does not yet articulate feeling trapped. She questions if it is her punishment for something. And notably, she is not even sure what the punishment is for. Is it about Jon? Her over-protective mothering? Freeing Jaime? Simply being a woman on the battlefield? She doesn't know. And it would be quite odd for Cat to declare this a "trap" when isn't sure why she is being sent to Seaguard.

I disagree... she could feel trapped even not knowing why she's being sent to Seaguard. Not saying she did necessarily, only that it is possible to feel trapped even if you don't know everything about the situation you're in. 

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

When she compares Robb's purported "trap" to the future trap at Moat Cailin, what exactly did Robb do that impressed her so? She certainly did not think to herself in that moment, Oh I am being sent to Seagard, and I can't complain because I promised Robb I would support him in anything he did other than naming Jon his heir. What a tactful and kingly trap I have been ensnared in!

So the news of her going to Seagard, based on her reaction there, was almost certainly not the "trap" she refers to a minute later. Now let's examine the rest of the chapter and look at her reaction to the naming of Robb's heir:

I agree, the news about Seaguard is not the trap. The trap is being backed into a corner by her own words to Robb. She will do what is expected of her... Remember, Cat is nothing if not dutiful. 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI 

When the last of Edmure's foot had shuffled under the portcullis, Brienne asked, "What shall we do now, my lady?"

"Our duty." Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father had told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match. 

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

 

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Only after Robb names his heir does Cat proclaim that she has been trapped by Robb,

Of course! Because Robb naming his heir is what the whole thing is about. And once Robb does name Jon, she is trapped into behaving dutifully and in accord with her own words. 

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

and she hoped the trap he planned for MC worked just as well. This line makes total sense in the context of choosing Cat as the heir and very little sense otherwise.

But it doesn't make any sense what.so.evah! :bang:

She hopes the MC trap is as successful because the trap she fell into worked out beautifully - Robb got what he wanted. And as Robb's mum she hopes that his next trap at MC is just as effective and successful. 

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Additionally, why did all the other lords already know that Cat was being sent to Seagard before Cat knew?

Don't really see much of a point here... does it matter? How and why? Or do you mean, why didn't Robb discuss this with her beforehand? 

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Cat assumes it was because people were angry about her freeing Jaime, but this doesn't seem to be the case, and frankly the pov characters almost always assume things incorrectly. The more likely answer is that everyone knew Cat was being sent to Seagard because Robb had already discussed naming Cat his heir with them, and they agreed that Seagard would be the best place for her.

Not sure Seaguard would be the best place but never gave it much thought tbh. 

22 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Robb even alluded to Cat being the heir with the line: I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. He basically said: I left one heir at Riverrun, I want the other elsewhere.

Huh? Jeyne is not Robb's heir.

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What story are you reading. It is certainly not the Song of Ice and Fire. Recall we start the story with the ice Family - Starks and the fire family - Dany.

The who GoT stuff and the Tully alliance is a big distraction and indeed may be the actual REASON that the Others have arisen again- probably not but still possible.

There must always be a STARK at Winterfell.  Catelyn is NOT a Stark.

She cannot inherit by the laws of the IT OR the mystical rule of the Old Gods.

ONLY if she married some other vague Stark relation - eg Karstark might it even be a vague possibility.

She could of course be named regent, but after the Jaime business I doubt Robb would do that as she would not be trusted by the Northerners.

He would name his unborn child as heir.

If Robb were rational- which I think he is he would name for his unborn child three co-regents

1. Someone strong from the North but without a claim to Winterfell even indirectly - probably Great Jon or Manderley

2. Someone from his Tully side - Blackfish probably (he did not respect Edmure's judgement)

3. Someone wise who just cared for the Starks/Robb - Maester Luwin perhaps.

He would look to marry his mother off to someone whom he trusted but would also be a strong ally. Someone from the Riverlands or Vale I would think.

He might even name Arya as regent until such time as his child came of age, provided she was unmarried and lived at Winterfell.

In the even of their not being an heir he MIGHT name Arya (if found alive) provided she never married and remained a Stark. This would prevent her being used as a pawn. He would need some time limit on finding her eg by the time she has her 12th name day

However on the assumption that Arya is dead Robb would have no choice but to name Jon.

 

However we must not ignore the mystical essentials - There must always be a "Stark at Winterfell."  Who is a Stark. It must be assumed it is some sort of bloodline possibly via the male line but I suspect that it is a FEMALE line thing - or maybe a both male and female thing as it is with dragon riders.

If Robb is wise then he would naturally name Jon but if Jon were dead or not available then who.

The problem with the descendants of the daughters of Jocelyn Stark is that they are not of the North and he would not know if they were trusted, They may even be Lannisters. Indeed I am practically certain that the actual heir of Jocelyn Stark is little Walda Frey, (the unknown daughter) Harry the Heir (waynwood) or possibly horrible Courbrey. Horrible thought  - it could EVEN be Littlefinger - we do not know who is mother or grandmother or great grandmother is. For this reason I think Robb would exclude all such descendants.

He could go back through the family records I guess to find other lost Starks or Snows. There are an awful lot of missing Starks who may have had descendants. 

I rather suspect we will find many in the Company of the Rose and also in the blood lines of those beyond the wall. I will take a wild guess that Bael the Bard was a Stark descendant (this would be essential if Ygritte's tale is true and if male Starkness is essential for the blood line. Probably also Mance Raydar. 

 

 

 

 

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