Roose vs. Tywin and some appreciation for the Boltons

[The Commentator]

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks.  That was his fee for helping the Freys end the Stark Rebellion.  He is the current Warden of the North and his heir is Lord Ramsay.  Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa with the hopes of adding Winterfell to the Lannister family holdings.  Tyrion will become lord of Winterfell in the future.

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?
2. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.
3. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?
4. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy.  Hear me out on this before you form an opinion.  (1)  The Stark family made many terrible decisions that brought the north to war within a span of 15 years.  First, Lyanna, Rickard, and Brandon with their plotting.  (2)  Ned Stark leaving the north to serve Robert.  (3)  Catelyn naps Tyrion and angers the Lannisters.  (4)  Ned admits to treason against Robert's heir.  (5)  Robb calls his banners to defend the Riverland and rescue Ned.  In fairness, to any sane man, the Starks look like dangerous fools.  Roose thinks the north would be better off under his leadership.  A quiet land.  A quiet people.  Robb marches the army to the south and wins his battles.  Roose continues to undermine Robb.  More bad decisions from the Starks follows.  (1)  Catelyn selfishly releases Jaime in order to save her daughters.  I can sympathize but this is very selfish.  The Starks asked their banners to march, bleed, and die for them and Cat can't sacrifice two kids!  (2)  Robb executes Karstark for killing enemy squires.  This is a dishonor but it is only right to kill the enemy.  (3)  Robb betrays his biggest ally to marry the girl he wants.  Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?  

[Coolbeard the Exile]

"Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy." 

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks.  That was his fee for helping the Freys end the Stark Rebellion.  He is the current Warden of the North and his heir is Lord Ramsay.  Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa with the hopes of adding Winterfell to the Lannister family holdings.  Tyrion will become lord of Winterfell in the future.

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?
2. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.
3. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?
4. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy.  Hear me out on this before you form an opinion.  (1)  The Stark family made many terrible decisions that brought the north to war within a span of 15 years.  First, Lyanna, Rickard, and Brandon with their plotting.  (2)  Ned Stark leaving the north to serve Robert.  (3)  Catelyn naps Tyrion and angers the Lannisters.  (4)  Ned admits to treason against Robert's heir.  (5)  Robb calls his banners to defend the Riverland and rescue Ned.  In fairness, to any sane man, the Starks look like dangerous fools.  Roose thinks the north would be better off under his leadership.  A quiet land.  A quiet people.  Robb marches the army to the south and wins his battles.  Roose continues to undermine Robb.  More bad decisions from the Starks follows.  (1)  Catelyn selfishly releases Jaime in order to save her daughters.  I can sympathize but this is very selfish.  The Starks asked their banners to march, bleed, and die for them and Cat can't sacrifice two kids!  (2)  Robb executes Karstark for killing enemy squires.  This is a dishonor but it is only right to kill the enemy.  (3)  Robb betrays his biggest ally to marry the girl he wants.  Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?  

I suspect Roose knew full well that Tywin was eventually going to expect him to hand power over to Tyrion. Tywin's plan was for the Northerners to suffer Roose Bolton, the long winter that was coming and the Ironborn combined, thus making Tyrion and Sansa's son appear so much more palatable to the Northern lords and I can't say that Tywin would be wrong. Roose was presumably aware of this and resolved to make his rule as smooth as possible, thus ridding Moat Cailin of the Ironborn. I think he eventually was going to off Ramsey once both he and Ramsey had a couple of healthy sons each who lived through their early years; Bolton rule would appear significantly more appealing if Ramsey was out of the picture.

Who the Northerners would choose is a tricky question after a long, arduous winter. Tywin had the Tyrells as allies, who happen to control the biggest breadbasket in Westeros. Roose is certainly hated by many Northern lords in a very personal way; he took part in the Red Wedding (which many suspect but don't know for sure). The North might have hated Joffrey and have little love for Tywin, the Lannisters or the Tyrells but it's not the same deep-seated hatred they have for Roose. Then of course there's the fact that Tywin knows that fArya is fake; what the Northerners make of that (if Tywin declares it to be so) is another matter that confuses the issue. Then, there are the marriage offers each one could have made to their respective Stark heirs (Tyrion's son and Ramsey's son).

Personally, I think Tywin played a nice hand and Roose would have failed to deal with it. They might have simply agreed on a marriage between Roose's children or Ramsey's children to Tyrion's children, thus uniting the lines and leaving Roose somewhat happy.

As for your last part... I doubt Roose was motivated by any selfless notion of putting the North in better hands. I've no doubt that he believed he was more capable than Robb, but I don't think that played into his decision. First, we don't know if Roose knew of any evidence to suggest Rickard, Lyanna and Brandon were engaging in conspiracy (and I know that you don't either). Ned ruled the North pretty fantastically by any measure: he helped overthrow the only dynasty to ever rule Westeros, he put down a rebellion by the Ironborn and he gave the North 14 years of prosperity. Roose almost certainly grew tired of Robb and Cat's failings, but they alone wouldn't have been enough to motivate him into taking the (fairly poor) deal he did take. Oh, and Robb killed Karstark because he killed hostages, not squires (well, the hostages were also squires); that was a stupid move and could have earned retribution from the Lannisters who had Northern hostages. You kill hostages for a specific reason, not to satisfy your pathetic vengeance boner. Even Roose would have understood how stupid murdering a hostage is, though he may have been dissatisfied with how Robb handled it.

[Quoth the raven,]

Could Roose be the good guy?  No. He's not a good guy.  Neither is Robb.

1. It was the best deal he could get and he also got fat Walda's weight in silver for his trouble.  Enough to make him a very rich man.  The north is poor and 80 kg of silver would go a long way towards building the Bolton treasury.  Maybe the book he read predicted a long winter and he knew the north isn't valuable enough for the Lannisters to expend resources in taking back.
2. Roose.  He's of the north.  He's one of them.   Tyrion is a dwarf and the son of their #1 enemy.  
3. Robb's stupid actions guaranteed that his team would lose.  Why go down and suffer with the man who broke his promise to you?  He might leave you out in the cold to face the wrath of the Lannisters on your own if it served his interest.  Robb was shit for a leader.  I can't blame Walder and Roose for wanting to bail out of his sinking ship.  Roose was similar to Rickard Stark in having an ambition.  He wanted to take the place of his boss.  The Bolton Northron Ambition you might call it.
4. The Starks have produced many complete shitheads like Lyanna, Brandon, Jon, Robb, and Sansa.  They cause more trouble than they're worth.  Of course Roose has something just as bad in Ramsay.  Roose has the right tools to become the effective leader that the north needs.  I think he can win over the grumpy lords with time.  He needs to rid himself of Ramsay and he will be ok.

[Clegane'sPup]

6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks.  That was his fee for helping the Freys end the Stark Rebellion.  He is the current Warden of the North and his heir is Lord Ramsay.  Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa with the hopes of adding Winterfell to the Lannister family holdings.  Tyrion will become lord of Winterfell in the future.

Speculation can be fun. Trying to ascertain motivation is a different ball of wax. My best guess is that the Bolton’s and the Stark’s didn’t quite see eye to eye. Besides that there is always that one with the resentment that wants to take the other down. Notice that it is not the everyday folk (commoners) in story who complain about Eddard’s honor it is the readers.

Starting with CoK.

Interestingly Tyrion offers Harrenhal to LF if LF can bring Lysa (the Vale) into the fold.

LF started his quasi plan about Sansa early in CoK with Dontos as the go between.

LF leaves KL to go treat with Tyrell after Renly’s death.

LF returns to KL with Tywin, Tyrell and Tarly after the Blackwater Bay battle.

Sansa has been set aside. The wedding of Joff & Marg is given the go ahead.

SoS.

Tywin says he has letters to write (some wars are won with quill and ink).

Tyrells bait Sansa with wedding to Wyllis.

Sansa tells Dontos she is going to Highgarden.

Tywin says LF can win the Vale. LF prepares to leave KL for the Eryie.

Tywin says LF brought word about the possible marriage of Sansa to Wylis

Tywin wants to marry Cersei to Wyllis and Sansa to Tyrion.

Tywin is not upset that Robb married Westerling.

Sansa marries Tyrion.

The Red Wedding happens. (I didn’t make note of when Roose married the Frey)

The marriage of Joffrey and Tyrell.

The death of Joffrey.

Dontos takes Sansa to LF (no one knows LF is at KL)

The trial of Tyrion and his excape.

Tommen  legitimizes Ramsey Bolton, makes Roose Warden of the North and pardons the Westerlings.

Jaime tells Brienne about the Arya/Jeyne switcharoo (Jeyne who was was given to LF).

My question is when Roose turned his cloak to side with the Lannisters did he already know that a fake Arya was part of the deal. I mean given the death of Joff and the implication of Tyrion and his lady wife (Sansa) in Joff’s death was there a larger conspiracy (venturing into Alex Jones territory).  

[The Hoare]

1. Tywin probably wanted the northerners and ironborn to kill each other, causing even more chaos there so that a lannister could rule. Roose probably thought he could deal with problems.

The North would become lannister only if Roose failed at his job.

2. Good question. The rational choice is Tyrion, as he had a better claim(stark wife) and southern allies that could help during the winter. Not sure if the North would be glad to have a southern dwarf as lord though.

4. As much good guy as Tywin was. He could have a good impact on the North, but not for altruism.

[The Sunland Lord]

Roose grabbed power when he saw an opportunity. His house was under Stark rule for thousands of years so he felt it's "now or never", as it really was. Every dog has its day, this was the logic behind his actions. Take over the North, and try to keep it later. Plus, surrounded by traitors and fighting a lost cause, his life was at stake too, wasn't it? Robb was already compromised and when the king (or leader) loses reputation, everything falls apart. So Roose felt this and acted.

He isn't a good guy, obviously. "A peaceful land, a quiet people" is open for many interpretations. By now, it's clear what does this mean.

In summary, he is a total cunt. You can tell it even when he stabs his king, says "Jaime Lannister sends his regards". Doesn't have the nerve to back up his treason with selfish reasoning, but tries to distant himself, at the same time revealing that he is someone who hides behind "bigger guys" that protect him. 

Great character developing by GRRM. 

 

 

 

 

[Son of Man]

9 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks.  That was his fee for helping the Freys end the Stark Rebellion.  He is the current Warden of the North and his heir is Lord Ramsay.  Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa with the hopes of adding Winterfell to the Lannister family holdings.  Tyrion will become lord of Winterfell in the future.

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?
2. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.
3. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?
4. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy.  Hear me out on this before you form an opinion.  (1)  The Stark family made many terrible decisions that brought the north to war within a span of 15 years.  First, Lyanna, Rickard, and Brandon with their plotting.  (2)  Ned Stark leaving the north to serve Robert.  (3)  Catelyn naps Tyrion and angers the Lannisters.  (4)  Ned admits to treason against Robert's heir.  (5)  Robb calls his banners to defend the Riverland and rescue Ned.  In fairness, to any sane man, the Starks look like dangerous fools.  Roose thinks the north would be better off under his leadership.  A quiet land.  A quiet people.  Robb marches the army to the south and wins his battles.  Roose continues to undermine Robb.  More bad decisions from the Starks follows.  (1)  Catelyn selfishly releases Jaime in order to save her daughters.  I can sympathize but this is very selfish.  The Starks asked their banners to march, bleed, and die for them and Cat can't sacrifice two kids!  (2)  Robb executes Karstark for killing enemy squires.  This is a dishonor but it is only right to kill the enemy.  (3)  Robb betrays his biggest ally to marry the girl he wants.  Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?  

1.  Plans change.  People die when they play the game of thrones.  Tywin and Tyrion could die ruining their plans to take over the north.  Besides, even if he loses the wardenship, he still gained a lot from helping the Lannisters and the Freys.  He got paid by Walder.  He gets to appropriate anything of value that the Starks left behind.  He got his bastard son made legit.  All in all it was a good deal for the Boltons. 

2.  Many in the north don't like Roose.  No one in the north likes Tyrion.  Roose got rid of the Ironborn at Moat Cailin.  I am sure many in the north will accept him eventually.  Lady Dustin did.  Roose Bolton over Tyrion.

3.  See 1 for Roose.  Walder got what he wanted from the Tullys.  He got Roslyn married to Edmure.  His son got Riverrun.  He received pardon for his role in Robb' rebellion.  He got his revenge on Robb for disrespecting his family.  It was a winning move.

 

4.  I don't think Roose had any higher reason than to simply get rid of a stupid boss who dragged his house into an inconvenient war.  There's also bad blood between the two houses.  Do we really know how the Starks beat the Boltons a thousand years ago?  Maybe the Starks pulled off something similar to the red wedding.  I think the fans get a rosey colored view of the Starks because of Ned and Benjen but I don't think that is necessarily accurate.  Robb was a walking fuckup and Roose probably saw problems down the road for his house if Robb continued his rebellion.  What good would come of it from his perspective to break away from the rest of the kingdom?  Nothing except if Robb is successful the north will become an independent kingdom and the Starks rule the north again.  That doesn't sound appealing to a Bolton.  What's in it for him?  Nothing.

 

[John Suburbs]

12 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

 

This is all a game to Roose.

Roose is actually more than 7000 years old. He is the last surviving son of the Night's King and his wight/Other bride. He was about to be sacrificed to the Others when Joruman and the KoW deposed the NK. Being his only heir, Roose inherited Winterfell or the Dreadfort or whatever castle he was entitled to.

From there, he set about fathering sons on human brides and, when the time was right, killing them, flaying them (thus the sigil) and donning their skins to become the next lord of the house. The disguise is perfect except for a few things: the eyes remain pale as milk glass, he never sweats, speaks only in whispers (although even big boisterous louts like the Greatjon fall silent when he speaks), and he has to leach himself constantly or else the blood will congeal in is hands and feet just like any wight.

This is why he was able to tell that Ramsey was his true son (the eyes) and that Domeric was not, and why he didn't bat an eye when Rams killed Dom: it was better to legitimize Rams because he can only make the switch into true sons, so he needed Ramsey to be his legal heir.

So all this business about Ramsey or Tyrion getting Winterfell is largely irrelevant to Roose. He will get it eventually, if it suits his purposes. In fact, he's been Lord of Winterfell before. Remember the story of Brandon Ice-Eyes, who threw the slavers out of the Wolf's Den? That was Roose.

Pretty soon, the person we call Roose will die and Ramsey will suddenly seem paler, stop sweating, start leaching himself and start speaking in whispers. And you'll know the switch has been made.

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Just because Tyrion and Sansa were married doesn't mean they were guaranteed to produce a male or female heir. Sansa and her child could have both died in the birthing room. Plus a lot could happen in the time a Tyrion-Sansa heir would be of age. Luckily for Roose the marriage bore no fruit and Tyrion and Sansa are both wanted for murder by the Crown.

Perhaps Roose was working with someone in King's Landing that knew Tyrion was not bedding Sansa.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

19 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy.  Hear me out on this before you form an opinion.  

Go on.

19 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. (1)  The Stark family made many terrible decisions that brought the north to war within a span of 15 years.  First, Lyanna, Rickard, and Brandon with their plotting.  (2)  Ned Stark leaving the north to serve Robert.  (3)  Catelyn naps Tyrion and angers the Lannisters.  (4)  Ned admits to treason against Robert's heir.  (5)  Robb calls his banners to defend the Riverland and rescue Ned.  In fairness, to any sane man, the Starks look like dangerous fools.  Roose thinks the north would be better off under his leadership.  A quiet land.  A quiet people.  Robb marches the army to the south and wins his battles.  Roose continues to undermine Robb.  More bad decisions from the Starks follows.  (1)  Catelyn selfishly releases Jaime in order to save her daughters.  I can sympathize but this is very selfish.  The Starks asked their banners to march, bleed, and die for them and Cat can't sacrifice two kids!  (2)  Robb executes Karstark for killing enemy squires.  This is a dishonor but it is only right to kill the enemy.  (3)  Robb betrays his biggest ally to marry the girl he wants.  Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?  

Sorry, but somehow you forgot about your point, which was, allow me remind you, "Roose is actually the good guy". And you don't go for "Roose = good" even once. All you got is, the Starks bad, Roose opportunistic.

(I, personally, have never seen the appeal of Rooting for the Empire anyway. It's just unapologetic trolling).

[X-Buster]

I don't see many options for Roose.  Robb will find out sooner or later that he let Jaime escape in Harrenhall and he won't get the same leniency that Catelyn got.  His head would leave his body when Robb learns of his betrayal.  Roose sensed the Karstarks and the Freys dissatisfaction with Robb.  He knew they would turn on the Starks and just sided with them for his own safety.  

[Lion of the West]

Many good posts on the subject. While I think that Robb was a fool and Roose had reasonable, if not morale, reasons for his rebellion and he is a well developed character, I don't for a second think that he's a good guy.

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is all a game to Roose.

Roose is actually more than 7000 years old. He is the last surviving son of the Night's King and his wight/Other bride. He was about to be sacrificed to the Others when Joruman and the KoW deposed the NK. Being his only heir, Roose inherited Winterfell or the Dreadfort or whatever castle he was entitled to.

From there, he set about fathering sons on human brides and, when the time was right, killing them, flaying them (thus the sigil) and donning their skins to become the next lord of the house. The disguise is perfect except for a few things: the eyes remain pale as milk glass, he never sweats, speaks only in whispers (although even big boisterous louts like the Greatjon fall silent when he speaks), and he has to leach himself constantly or else the blood will congeal in is hands and feet just like any wight.

This is why he was able to tell that Ramsey was his true son (the eyes) and that Domeric was not, and why he didn't bat an eye when Rams killed Dom: it was better to legitimize Rams because he can only make the switch into true sons, so he needed Ramsey to be his legal heir.

So all this business about Ramsey or Tyrion getting Winterfell is largely irrelevant to Roose. He will get it eventually, if it suits his purposes. In fact, he's been Lord of Winterfell before. Remember the story of Brandon Ice-Eyes, who threw the slavers out of the Wolf's Den? That was Roose.

Pretty soon, the person we call Roose will die and Ramsey will suddenly seem paler, stop sweating, start leaching himself and start speaking in whispers. And you'll know the switch has been made.

I don't agree with this as historical Boltons have behaved in a very un-Roose manner, like Royce IV "Redarm" Bolton who gives me a Ramsay feeling rather than a Roose feeling to him; tearing out prisoners' entrails with his bare hands and stuff like that. But its still a creative view on the character and it would be unexpected if GRRM goes down this route. In fact then you could argue that Ramsay, if he would turn on Roose, is actually acting in self defense in how he would defend his life and independence as a human being from being taken over by "the Bolton". I don't think that this is true but it could lead to some pretty interesting dynamics between Roose and Ramsay, which is likely to culminate when Roose either feels ready to strike or when Ramsay decides to strike prematurely, feeling how Old Man Bolton is seizing him up.

In regards to Roose and Robb...

1. I would think that Roose has no intention of ever letting go of Winterfell and he knows the North better than Tywin and probably count on some factors that Tywin don't take into consideration. For the first thing, the North has never fallen to Southron invaders since the time of its unification and that means every invader from the south has so far been thrown back. I won't go into a long post about the strategic reasons for and against the possibility of conquering the North but sufficiant to say is that Roose may well feel that he can hold of Tywin at Coat Cailin if it comes to it.

To that comes that Roose is also one of the Northmen with a House of ancient First Men stock with history and traditions that goes back millennia. And we see how the Northmen rejects the prospects of hailing Stannis or Renly as their kings. Thus Roose, even though he is what he is, should be considered much better than a Lannister dwarf. And with fArya Ramsay will have a claim on Winterfell, a claim that Roose can keep as long as there are not Lannister troops marching through the Neck and Roose could feel confident that he can prevent that from happening and that the lords of the North will pick him before Tyrion or Tyrion's son.

As such I would think that Roose works with the belief that Tywin will try to press Tyrion's claim, but that Lord Bolton will be able to hold of Lord Lannister and thus facts on the ground will settle it for House Bolton. It don't matter if Tyrion's son has the better claim if he can't get hold of Winterfell and someone else rules as the Lord of Winterfell.

Also note that Roose is in a way also forced into the position of hostility to Robb by Ramsay. Ramsay is Roose's heir and Ramsay makes himself the enemy of House Stark and burns Winterfell to the ground. When Robb comes north things are very likely to be revealed to Robb and thus earning Roose a position with, at best, no heir to succeed him. Together with the reasons laid out by other posters above, this works together where simply a Stark victory, or even return to the North, would be disasterous for House Bolton.

2. Roose, any day of the week. As mentioned above the Boltons would be in a position to win the authority and respect from his fellow Northern lords with time, and even now there are Houses on his side against Lord Stannis who seems to have gathered most of the surviving Stark loyalists to his side, barring House Manderly.

I think that this quote from A Dance with Dragons summons up the Northern view on Lord Bolton.

Quote

"Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse."

Saying that you can deal with Roose and live with him. He might not be beloved but he's not crazy tyrant either, unlike Ramsay. Now if it was between Tyrion and Ramsay things would probably be different but since the question is between Tyrion and Roose and I find the answer to be easy.

3. See above on point 1. Tyrion can only get Winterfell if he gets to the castle and a hostile North may well stand a good chance to deny Tyrion passage, even with a Southron army moving in to support Tyrion's claim. The problem as I see it is that Tywin has no knowledge of the North and so assumes that it works like the Andal kingdoms between the Neck and Dorne, but it don't. The Northmen seems pretty conscious of their ethinic and cultural distinction from the southern parts of the realms and thus they would seem, at least to me, less likely to accept a man from the West in the same way that the lords of the Reach may easily accept a noble born in the Vale or the Riverlands to claim a lordship by the Mander.

4. There's no chance of Roose being a good guy. He may be a better choice than Roob but being a good guy implies morale characteristics of the person, and Roose has few such virtues that we know about. That the Starks, more more accurately Robb, fucked up is beyond a doubt for me, but also that Robb is head and shoulders above Roose in the morality department. And I don't think that Robb stood particulary large there at all.

But I do think that the North would be better off under Roose than under Robb, but the North would be better off under Robb than under Ramsay. Roose really needs to starts putting some little Boltons in Walda's oven to have som Boltons that can be groomed for authority and ruling. Now Roose says that boy-lords are the doom of their Houses, but I dare say that mad lords are as much, or even more, the doom of their Houses. And right now there seems to be a pretty fucked up 100% psycho ready to become take over after Roose turns over. Thus potentially ruining all of Roose's work. And I don't believe that he don't care for what happens. If he didn't care then why would Roose take Ramsay to be his heir and get a legitimization for him? Why would Roose not just kick out Ramsay or drive him off from his lands if Roose didn't care for what happened to himself and his House?

[WSmith84]

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

But I do think that the North would be better off under Roose than under Robb, but the North would be better off under Robb than under Ramsay. Roose really needs to starts putting some little Boltons in Walda's oven to have som Boltons that can be groomed for authority and ruling. Now Roose says that boy-lords are the doom of their Houses, but I dare say that mad lords are as much, or even more, the doom of their Houses. And right now there seems to be a pretty fucked up 100% psycho ready to become take over after Roose turns over. Thus potentially ruining all of Roose's work. And I don't believe that he don't care for what happens. If he didn't care then why would Roose take Ramsay to be his heir and get a legitimization for him? Why would Roose not just kick out Ramsay or drive him off from his lands if Roose didn't care for what happened to himself and his House?

To be fair, he says the bolded to Reek knowing that Reek will tell everything he says to Ramsey. I think it was simply a way to reassure Ramsey that his position as heir would not be under threat, and it is made believable by how cold Roose is (while, of course, waiting for the perfect moment to rid himself of Ramsey forever). It's perfectly believable, to me at least, that Roose might not give two shits about his children dying; that Ramsey might believe this as well does not seem a huge leap.

[Lion of the West]

5 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

To be fair, he says the bolded to Reek knowing that Reek will tell everything he says to Ramsey. I think it was simply a way to reassure Ramsey that his position as heir would not be under threat, and it is made believable by how cold Roose is (while, of course, waiting for the perfect moment to rid himself of Ramsey forever). It's perfectly believable, to me at least, that Roose might not give two shits about his children dying; that Ramsey might believe this as well does not seem a huge leap.

Well true that. The prospect of it being all, or mostly, massaging Ramsay's ego, is certainly something which I can see Roose doing. Perhaps to get Ramsay to drop his guard before Roose strikes?

[The Wolves]

22 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Could Roose be the good guy?  No. He's not a good guy.  Neither is Robb.

1. It was the best deal he could get and he also got fat Walda's weight in silver for his trouble.  Enough to make him a very rich man.  The north is poor and 80 kg of silver would go a long way towards building the Bolton treasury.  Maybe the book he read predicted a long winter and he knew the north isn't valuable enough for the Lannisters to expend resources in taking back.
2. Roose.  He's of the north.  He's one of them.   Tyrion is a dwarf and the son of their #1 enemy.  
3. Robb's stupid actions guaranteed that his team would lose.  Why go down and suffer with the man who broke his promise to you?  He might leave you out in the cold to face the wrath of the Lannisters on your own if it served his interest.  Robb was shit for a leader.  I can't blame Walder and Roose for wanting to bail out of his sinking ship.  Roose was similar to Rickard Stark in having an ambition.  He wanted to take the place of his boss.  The Bolton Northron Ambition you might call it.
4. The Starks have produced many complete shitheads like Lyanna, Brandon, Jon, Robb, and Sansa.  They cause more trouble than they're worth.  Of course Roose has something just as bad in Ramsay.  Roose has the right tools to become the effective leader that the north needs.  I think he can win over the grumpy lords with time.  He needs to rid himself of Ramsay and he will be ok.

Robb is definitely a good guy, ask GRRM. 

[John Doe]

On 8.6.2017 at 6:08 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks.  That was his fee for helping the Freys end the Stark Rebellion.  He is the current Warden of the North and his heir is Lord Ramsay.  Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa with the hopes of adding Winterfell to the Lannister family holdings.  Tyrion will become lord of Winterfell in the future.

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?
2. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.
3. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?
4. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy.  Hear me out on this before you form an opinion.  (1)  The Stark family made many terrible decisions that brought the north to war within a span of 15 years.  First, Lyanna, Rickard, and Brandon with their plotting.  (2)  Ned Stark leaving the north to serve Robert.  (3)  Catelyn naps Tyrion and angers the Lannisters.  (4)  Ned admits to treason against Robert's heir.  (5)  Robb calls his banners to defend the Riverland and rescue Ned.  In fairness, to any sane man, the Starks look like dangerous fools.  Roose thinks the north would be better off under his leadership.  A quiet land.  A quiet people.  Robb marches the army to the south and wins his battles.  Roose continues to undermine Robb.  More bad decisions from the Starks follows.  (1)  Catelyn selfishly releases Jaime in order to save her daughters.  I can sympathize but this is very selfish.  The Starks asked their banners to march, bleed, and die for them and Cat can't sacrifice two kids!  (2)  Robb executes Karstark for killing enemy squires.  This is a dishonor but it is only right to kill the enemy.  (3)  Robb betrays his biggest ally to marry the girl he wants.  Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?  

1. He wanted to screw Tywin over just like Tywin wanted to screw him over. It was never inteneded as a long-lasting alliance by either party, it was just a matter of convenience. 

2. Roose, I think. Even that Glover guy who was with Manderly in ADWD says that a man can deal with Roose, and they've all known worse (which doesn't speak well for the North imo, but that's another story). Plus Roose is a northener and the North isn't especially open to strangers. Tyrion is a dwarf, a southener and a Lannister, all things that don't make him an attractive option I think. 

3. I'm not sure if Walder planned that far ahead, he's old and it takes time for Tyrion to father a child and for Tywin to get the south under control and in shape to take on the North. Now Roose plays his own game, as we hear by Lady Dustin in AFFC, and I don't think his plans were different before Tywin died. 

4. Not really. Roose isn't the worst ruler we've seen in the series, and there were quite a few cruel rulers that were sort of popular, so from that perspective he isn't the absolute worst. He might be a better ruler for the North than Robb Stark, and even the rest of the Starks that are still alive in the series. But that doesn't make him a good guy at all, even by the standards of his time he does some pretty fucked up things and just isn't motivated by a lot of morality, which isn't really a bonus in my book. 

 

[WSmith84]

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Well true that. The prospect of it being all, or mostly, massaging Ramsay's ego, is certainly something which I can see Roose doing. Perhaps to get Ramsay to drop his guard before Roose strikes?

That's my bet. I think Roose was hoping for a son from fArya, or at least a pregnancy, before knocking Ramsey off. He might have waited even longer, letting Ramsey have a couple of children, before arranging some hunting accident.

Incidentally, I've always felt that Roose would probably do the deed of killing Ramsey himself. Not because he'd get off on it or anything (though he probably would) but mostly to make sure it was done right.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 6/8/2017 at 0:08 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks.  That was his fee for helping the Freys end the Stark Rebellion.  He is the current Warden of the North and his heir is Lord Ramsay.  Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa with the hopes of adding Winterfell to the Lannister family holdings.  Tyrion will become lord of Winterfell in the future.

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?
2. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.
3. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?
4. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy.  Hear me out on this before you form an opinion.  (1)  The Stark family made many terrible decisions that brought the north to war within a span of 15 years.  First, Lyanna, Rickard, and Brandon with their plotting.  (2)  Ned Stark leaving the north to serve Robert.  (3)  Catelyn naps Tyrion and angers the Lannisters.  (4)  Ned admits to treason against Robert's heir.  (5)  Robb calls his banners to defend the Riverland and rescue Ned.  In fairness, to any sane man, the Starks look like dangerous fools.  Roose thinks the north would be better off under his leadership.  A quiet land.  A quiet people.  Robb marches the army to the south and wins his battles.  Roose continues to undermine Robb.  More bad decisions from the Starks follows.  (1)  Catelyn selfishly releases Jaime in order to save her daughters.  I can sympathize but this is very selfish.  The Starks asked their banners to march, bleed, and die for them and Cat can't sacrifice two kids!  (2)  Robb executes Karstark for killing enemy squires.  This is a dishonor but it is only right to kill the enemy.  (3)  Robb betrays his biggest ally to marry the girl he wants.  Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?  

Why not.  It's the only deal he could make.  He can't turn against the Starks and crawl back to the Dreadfort.  The families loyal to the Starks will attack him.  He had to kill Robb and take control of the north at the same time.  His new office offer him protection from retaliation.  The new authority he has gives him the power to give favors to Barbrey Dustin and the karstarks to win them over to his side.

Roose Bolton is not popular but he can be a good leader.  You don't have to admire somebody to recognize good leadership.  Roose can do a better job of ruling the north than Robb, Jon, or Bran.  I think given time the other lords will grow to respect their new high lord.  He wins out over Tyrion.

Tywin was double dealing.  I don't think we know for a fact that he meant to place his son and future grandson over the Boltons.  Winterfell was destroyed and it's no longer the capital of the north.  The Dreadfort is the new capital.  The future Lord Lannister can claim Winterfell without being the warden of the north.  That was Tywin selling an idea to Tyrion.

Roose is not a good guy but as GRRM already said, being a good guy doesn't mean good ruler.  He used President Carter as his example.  Roose has questionable morals but he would make an effective leader for the north.  Look closely at his competition.  Stannis burns his own men for cannibalism.  Jon betrayed his own men for one sister.  Robb betrays his followers to satisfy his lust.  There are no good choices for the north.  Roose might be the best of the bad.

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Many good posts on the subject. While I think that Robb was a fool and Roose had reasonable, if not morale, reasons for his rebellion and he is a well developed character, I don't for a second think that he's a good guy.

I don't agree with this as historical Boltons have behaved in a very un-Roose manner, like Royce IV "Redarm" Bolton who gives me a Ramsay feeling rather than a Roose feeling to him; tearing out prisoners' entrails with his bare hands and stuff like that. But its still a creative view on the character and it would be unexpected if GRRM goes down this route. In fact then you could argue that Ramsay, if he would turn on Roose, is actually acting in self defense in how he would defend his life and independence as a human being from being taken over by "the Bolton". I don't think that this is true but it could lead to some pretty interesting dynamics between Roose and Ramsay, which is likely to culminate when Roose either feels ready to strike or when Ramsay decides to strike prematurely, feeling how Old Man Bolton is seizing him up.

 

The creature that we call Roose would not necessarily have limited himself to House Bolton through the ages. He could very well have finagled his way into dozens of northern houses -- including the Starks, a la Brandon Ice-Eyes.

Eventually, of course, he would return to the Dreadfort, which is why many houses today shun them, since misfortune would tend to visit the house that married a daughter to Lord Bolton.

I know it sounds far-fetched, but I can't see any other reason why even a despicable lord like Roose would not only forgive the fact that his bastard murdered his trueborn son and heir -- a man who, by all accounts, had the makings of being a champion jouster and a true leader of men -- but then reward the killer with legitimacy and both the Dreadfort and Winterfell. And how does Roose know for sure that Ramsey is his? Why, the eyes, of course. I'll bet Domeric did not have pale eyes, probably grey, like a Stark, which means he was the one not of Roose's body, and therefore ineligible to be flayed and occupied.