Roose vs. Tywin and some appreciation for the Boltons

[Lord Wraith]

On 6/8/2017 at 0:08 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks.  That was his fee for helping the Freys end the Stark Rebellion.  He is the current Warden of the North and his heir is Lord Ramsay.  Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa with the hopes of adding Winterfell to the Lannister family holdings.  Tyrion will become lord of Winterfell in the future.

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?
2. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.
3. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?
4. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy.  Hear me out on this before you form an opinion.  (1)  The Stark family made many terrible decisions that brought the north to war within a span of 15 years.  First, Lyanna, Rickard, and Brandon with their plotting.  (2)  Ned Stark leaving the north to serve Robert.  (3)  Catelyn naps Tyrion and angers the Lannisters.  (4)  Ned admits to treason against Robert's heir.  (5)  Robb calls his banners to defend the Riverland and rescue Ned.  In fairness, to any sane man, the Starks look like dangerous fools.  Roose thinks the north would be better off under his leadership.  A quiet land.  A quiet people.  Robb marches the army to the south and wins his battles.  Roose continues to undermine Robb.  More bad decisions from the Starks follows.  (1)  Catelyn selfishly releases Jaime in order to save her daughters.  I can sympathize but this is very selfish.  The Starks asked their banners to march, bleed, and die for them and Cat can't sacrifice two kids!  (2)  Robb executes Karstark for killing enemy squires.  This is a dishonor but it is only right to kill the enemy.  (3)  Robb betrays his biggest ally to marry the girl he wants.  Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?  

1) I would need to check the timeline when Roose was given wardenship vs the Purple Wedding. I imagine Roose was smiling when he heard about it.

2) Roose is a Northern. They may fear the Boltons but they really don't like Southers much at all. Plus the Imp no one likes the Imp. Roose wins easily.

3) I am sure they would have come up with something to deal with Tyrion.

4) Roose is a smart man. The Starks were a lost cause when Roose jumped ship. Better to have the North ruled by a Northern than a Lannister. Good as a morality choice means very little in Westeros.

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is all a game to Roose.

Roose is actually more than 7000 years old. He is the last surviving son of the Night's King and his wight/Other bride. He was about to be sacrificed to the Others when Joruman and the KoW deposed the NK. Being his only heir, Roose inherited Winterfell or the Dreadfort or whatever castle he was entitled to.

From there, he set about fathering sons on human brides and, when the time was right, killing them, flaying them (thus the sigil) and donning their skins to become the next lord of the house. The disguise is perfect except for a few things: the eyes remain pale as milk glass, he never sweats, speaks only in whispers (although even big boisterous louts like the Greatjon fall silent when he speaks), and he has to leach himself constantly or else the blood will congeal in is hands and feet just like any wight.

This is why he was able to tell that Ramsey was his true son (the eyes) and that Domeric was not, and why he didn't bat an eye when Rams killed Dom: it was better to legitimize Rams because he can only make the switch into true sons, so he needed Ramsey to be his legal heir.

So all this business about Ramsey or Tyrion getting Winterfell is largely irrelevant to Roose. He will get it eventually, if it suits his purposes. In fact, he's been Lord of Winterfell before. Remember the story of Brandon Ice-Eyes, who threw the slavers out of the Wolf's Den? That was Roose.

Pretty soon, the person we call Roose will die and Ramsey will suddenly seem paler, stop sweating, start leaching himself and start speaking in whispers. And you'll know the switch has been made.

AH Bolt-On my old friend. While I quite like the idea of the Bolton's being descendants of the Stark Night King. Not sure about Roose being a immortal skin stealing vampire but its a fun theory.

14 hours ago, E.S. Dinah said:

I don't see many options for Roose.  Robb will find out sooner or later that he let Jaime escape in Harrenhall and he won't get the same leniency that Catelyn got.  His head would leave his body when Robb learns of his betrayal.  Roose sensed the Karstarks and the Freys dissatisfaction with Robb.  He knew they would turn on the Starks and just sided with them for his own safety.  

The Starks had already lost the war at this point. It was the time to jump ship to the winning side.

[Ckram]

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?

As you pointed out, Tywin granted Winterfell to Tyrion but the North was Boltons' prize. Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North is not the same thing. So the northern center of power moved to Dreadfort whereas Tyrion gets Winterfell ruins and Stark lands (a title not so empty as the one Petyr got with Harrenhal, owing to Sansa's claim).

But once Sansa disappears and Tyrion is condemned (losing the right on Winterfell), Ramsay becames a best opition to both Roose and the Iron Throne (he is legitimized in the very same chapter that Roose is declared Warden of the North - Jaime IX, ASOS). However in order to cement Ramsay's claim, Tywin sends him fArya (who was pulled from the wizard's hat only after the trial was over).

2. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.

@John Doe's answer.

3. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?

@John Doe's answer plus the feeling that Tyrion wouldn't make it, specially with the winter so close.

4. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy. [...] Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?

No chance, IMO. It's clear that Roose did not acted on behalf of a greater good.

[Ckram]

34 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

1) I would need to check the timeline when Roose was given wardenship vs the Purple Wedding. I imagine Roose was smiling when he heard about it.

 

Roose wardenship was given in ASOS - Jaime IX, days after Tyrion's trial.

[Lord Wraith]

38 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Roose wardenship was given in ASOS - Jaime IX, days after Tyrion's trial.

Cheers so things not looking good for Tyrion taking the North then.

[300 H&H Magnum]

We know very little about the Boltons making it difficult to say why Roose had it out for Robb from the start.  I say it is about their history more than believing he could do a better job than Robb.  The historical Boltons flayed their Stark enemies which indicate a hatred existed between the two houses.  Roose appear cool but that's not been proven.  He may be burning with hate for the Starks.

Roose, Walder, and Tywin started communicating as soon as Robb betrayed the Freys.  Roose got a better deal than he could get from Robb.  He gets nothing from the king in the north.  I don't think Robb would have made him hand of the king even if the north got its independence.  No reward and no thanks for his service.

I don't think they had an answer for Tyrion.  They had to hope for the best they could get out of Tywin.  They were rebels and fought against Tywin.  Anything they could get from him is a bonus.  The R/W was the service they had to provide to pay for their part in helping Robb's war against Joffrey. 

Roose is a bad guy but even a bad guy can be capable.  Would you rather have an incompetent but kind person to lead or a brutal but competent person?  Competence is more important.  Ruthless but fair and consistent are good qualities in that setting.  Roose could use some work in the fair part whereas Robb lacked fairness and consistency.  Both shortcomings result in unjust decisions.  Consistency is important to achieve justice. Both men would need to work on it.  Roose is a villain for sure.  I would give Walder a pass and say he's grey because Robb dumped on him.  Roose, however, had no excuse other than bad blood between the two houses. 

[Bernie Mac]

On 2017-6-8 at 5:08 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks. .

The Wardenship was his prize, which is not the same as being made  Lord of the North. His prize was also an end to a costly war. War is expensive and costly, Roose would have seen it as pointless as there was no possibility of victory. 

On 2017-6-8 at 5:08 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?

He would have lost it to a grandson of Tywin's rather than Tyrion himself. That would be a number of years before Tyrion goes North and in that time Roose could further cement his position as Warden of the North and holdings of the Dreadfort. 

On 2017-6-8 at 5:08 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

 

1. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.

Whoever offers them the best incentive. But is is not really a choice of Tyrion, rather Sansa and her sons versus Roose and his grandsons from (f)Arya. 

On 2017-6-8 at 5:08 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

 

1. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?

Why would they not? The Frey's deal was not dependent on Roose becoming Lord of the North, they wanted revenge on Robb. 

Roose, after what Ramsay had done, could not allow Robb to remain in power. He also did not want to continue an unwinnable war that not only made him weaker but could see him dead. 

Tyrion was a problem that was a decade or so away. Roose is dealing with the here and now. 

 

[Sourjapes]

1. Winterfell was never promised, it was only improvised later after Sansa was 'lost'. For all we know fArya was improvised at the same time. After all, it is not as if Roose really needed the Starks to serve as Lord Paramount. That claim is only needed for Winterfell itself. Otherwise he has the backing of the crown. Maybe he does ponder that the Lannisters might challenge him later with Tyrion's son? That is years away, possibly after Roose is dead and depending on the political and military situation on that future date then he can contest or not. In the meantime being Lord Paramount for all those years gives him plenty of opportunities to increase the wealth and influence of House Bolton in incomes and titles.
2. I think most of them would choose Roose over Tywin, but plenty would scheme to see both destroyed in a war. No one really KNOWS what Roose's role in the Red Wedding was, if any. They only strongly suspect. If not for Ramsay a lot more lords would be willing to accept Roose as LP as long as he brings them peace after this destructive war.
3. (answered in 1)
4. Roose is my favorite character but he is not a good person. He's a very bad person, worse than Tywin, he's not even a good lord but he is an effective lord. If he truly believes a peaceful land and a quiet people is a rule to live by then he is generally what the North needs in this post-war soon-to-be winter period. Wars are expensive and destructive and while the potential for advancement is high, so is the potential for disaster. Roose's greatest flaw is his toleration of Ramsay's savagery, directed often enough against his own people. If not for that he'd be a much better lord in my view.

[cpg2016]

On 6/8/2017 at 5:50 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

Robb's stupid actions guaranteed that his team would lose.  Why go down and suffer with the man who broke his promise to you?  He might leave you out in the cold to face the wrath of the Lannisters on your own if it served his interest.  Robb was shit for a leader.  I can't blame Walder and Roose for wanting to bail out of his sinking ship.  Roose was similar to Rickard Stark in having an ambition.  He wanted to take the place of his boss.  The Bolton Northron Ambition you might call it.

He made his deal with Tywin before he heard of Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling.  But other than that you're mostly right.  Robb's broken marriage pact was just the opportunity, not the motive.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 6/8/2017 at 11:23 PM, John Suburbs said:

This is all a game to Roose.

Roose is actually more than 7000 years old. He is the last surviving son of the Night's King and his wight/Other bride. He was about to be sacrificed to the Others when Joruman and the KoW deposed the NK. Being his only heir, Roose inherited Winterfell or the Dreadfort or whatever castle he was entitled to.

From there, he set about fathering sons on human brides and, when the time was right, killing them, flaying them (thus the sigil) and donning their skins to become the next lord of the house. The disguise is perfect except for a few things: the eyes remain pale as milk glass, he never sweats, speaks only in whispers (although even big boisterous louts like the Greatjon fall silent when he speaks), and he has to leach himself constantly or else the blood will congeal in is hands and feet just like any wight.

This is why he was able to tell that Ramsey was his true son (the eyes) and that Domeric was not, and why he didn't bat an eye when Rams killed Dom: it was better to legitimize Rams because he can only make the switch into true sons, so he needed Ramsey to be his legal heir.

So all this business about Ramsey or Tyrion getting Winterfell is largely irrelevant to Roose. He will get it eventually, if it suits his purposes. In fact, he's been Lord of Winterfell before. Remember the story of Brandon Ice-Eyes, who threw the slavers out of the Wolf's Den? That was Roose.

Pretty soon, the person we call Roose will die and Ramsey will suddenly seem paler, stop sweating, start leaching himself and start speaking in whispers. And you'll know the switch has been made.

http://i.imgur.com/x1FrHvW.gifv

[Lord Wraith]

5 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

He made his deal with Tywin before he heard of Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling.  But other than that you're mostly right.  Robb's broken marriage pact was just the opportunity, not the motive.

Your proof of this is what pray tell?

[PCK]

The Boltons are great villains and that's what they are. A man who says "don't make me rue the day I raped your mother" is not exactly the moral equivalent of Mother Theresa. 

You do wonder about the deal Roose and Tywin made, especially since he wed Tyrion to Sansa. He had to have known that no northerner would ever take kindly to a Lannister up there. Tyrion would have been a marked man. From Roose's perspective, does he want to be King of the North himself?

I'm not convinced Stannis will rout them from Winterfell. We're constantly told that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Why is that? Those words mean nothing if we never find out what happens when a Stark isn't there.

[cpg2016]

14 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Your proof of this is what pray tell?

He gives the order for the disaster at Duskendale prior to hearing about the Red Wedding.  Once he hears about Stannis losing at the Blackwater he jumps ship.

Quote

He had to have known that no northerner would ever take kindly to a Lannister up there. Tyrion would have been a marked man. From Roose's perspective, does he want to be King of the North himself?

PCK, this benefits Roose politically.  He knows the North will hate Tyrion, but Tyrion controls Sansa.  So what does that mean?  That they can't rely on the only living Stark, and who else to turn to but the true Northern Warden of the North.  Either way he wins.  He controls both the dynastically legitimate Lannister union, and also the only legitimate alternative.

Quote

A man who says "don't make me rue the day I raped your mother" is not exactly the moral equivalent of Mother Theresa. 

I'd say the woman who claimed abortion is the "greatest destroyer of love and peace" is not exactly the moral equivalent of a rapist, actually.

[Frey Kings]

 Stannis just took WF

[devilish]

On 08/06/2017 at 5:08 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The north was the prize for getting rid of Robb and the Starks.  That was his fee for helping the Freys end the Stark Rebellion.  He is the current Warden of the North and his heir is Lord Ramsay.  Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa with the hopes of adding Winterfell to the Lannister family holdings.  Tyrion will become lord of Winterfell in the future.

1. Why did Roose agree to this deal knowing he would lose Winterfell to the son of Tywin?  Why is he working hard trying to restore Winterfell when it belongs to Tyrion?
2. If the houses of the north could choose between Lord Roose and Lord Tyrion, who would they choose to have over them?   Please give me an explanation why.
3. How do you think the Boltons and the Freys were planning to deal with Tyrion?  They knew what his marriage to Sansa meant.  Everyone did.  Yet they still agreed to Tywin's deal.  Why?
4. Any chance that Roose is actually the good guy.  Hear me out on this before you form an opinion.  (1)  The Stark family made many terrible decisions that brought the north to war within a span of 15 years.  First, Lyanna, Rickard, and Brandon with their plotting.  (2)  Ned Stark leaving the north to serve Robert.  (3)  Catelyn naps Tyrion and angers the Lannisters.  (4)  Ned admits to treason against Robert's heir.  (5)  Robb calls his banners to defend the Riverland and rescue Ned.  In fairness, to any sane man, the Starks look like dangerous fools.  Roose thinks the north would be better off under his leadership.  A quiet land.  A quiet people.  Robb marches the army to the south and wins his battles.  Roose continues to undermine Robb.  More bad decisions from the Starks follows.  (1)  Catelyn selfishly releases Jaime in order to save her daughters.  I can sympathize but this is very selfish.  The Starks asked their banners to march, bleed, and die for them and Cat can't sacrifice two kids!  (2)  Robb executes Karstark for killing enemy squires.  This is a dishonor but it is only right to kill the enemy.  (3)  Robb betrays his biggest ally to marry the girl he wants.  Is it any wonder to you that Roose would think the north would be better off under his leadership than Robb's?  

A-    Roose had no choice. Sansa was in KL and Tywin could marry her to whoever he wanted. What I do think is that Roose is scaring the crap out of the Northerners so they are forced to join his side when he rebels against the crown. Lannister troops had never ventured so up North and Mace would be reluctant to send his own force there especially since he’ll get nothing out of it 
B-    It depends on a lot of factors including how the North perceives the return of Sansa or her children. Tyrion’s son will be Northerner in all but name. He might see the value of the North but only as means to get the Westerlands which is also his by right. The situation may easily degenerate into a bony prince situation were the prince used the Scottish claim to try and get his hands on a more prized asset
C-    The Freys had enough problems in their own territory to worry about someone, whom, if backed by the crown, can wipe them out quite easily. Don’t forget that the Freys are not even LPs to the Riverlands. Tyrion biggest bone of contention would have been to find someone ready to support his wife’s claim. Neither the king nor his mother would help him out. Quite contrary Joffrey would probably want Sansa close to torment her.
D-    Roose is an cynic man. His king called him for war and he joined him. His same king was losing the war and he decided to save his skin rather than die with him. Its that simple. Also there’s too much drama surrounding these god damn Starks. How many Northerners must die before they learn to keep themselves out of Southern politics?