Jump to content

My thoughts on the Tyrion Targaryen Theory


Agent 326

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Let's start of with the obvious. I hate this theory. It's campy, cheesy, stupid, doesn't fit in with the story of ASOIAF, nowhere near enough build up and it can be debunked solely by the title.

Tyrion is the Mad King's son according to this theory meaning he isn't a Targaryen, no his last name becomes either Hill or Waters. One might say that he might have been legitimized but to that I say, by whom. No Baratheon would legitimize him, Robb wouldn't, Balon or Euron wouldn't care and for Aegon and Dany he is a threat to their claim if legitimized. And no one suspected Tyrion of not being Tywin's son except Tywin.

Another reason I think people like this theory is so that Tyrion isn't a kinslayer and didn't murder his own father. Well Tyrion either way is a kinslayer because Tywin is also his second cousin. Also in the dark world of ASOIAF why would George R.R. Martin rob us of a main character killing their own father.

Also the story that we are told that a lot of people presume is about Tywin and Aerys being best of friends and by the end of the story being worst of enemies. Not about Tyrion secretly being the Mad King's bastard. It ruins the entire point of the story we are told.

Also doesn't the fact that the show cut out Tyrion's description from the book mean something to you? It means they aren't important.

One might bring up the fact that Tyrion was obsessed with Dragons when he was little but come on, he is a kid and dragons are cool from the eyes of a kid. What child wouldn't want to be able to ride a dragon.

Also the point of Tyrion's character is that he is a Lannister, not a secret Targaryen Bastard. The difference in physical description is supposed to mean that he is different.

Also Aerys is not one to be loyal to one women. He was always one to lay with however he wanted and then never again. He only stayed loyal to Rhealla (sorry if I mespelled her name).

  1. And Tyrion is Tywin's son (I'm not speaking from the perspective that I believe that Tyrion is actually Tywin's son but you know being Your father's son, from a personality perspective), Tywin hates what he sees in Tyrion because Tywin is the same thing only Tyrion is an ugly dwarf. If Tyrion was just a bookish boy, never slept with whores, wasn't a drunk and wasn't very good from a political standpoint (not that he is or else he wouldn't be in exile, but he has made the occasional great political move, (bribing the Hill Clansmen, figuring out who was Cersei's spy by using Myrcella and Tommen marriages and fostering, putting forward the notion of Joffrey wedding Margery) but at the same time he only focused on Cersei and let Varys and Littlefinger scheme all that they wanted.

Now if you want to know my thoughts on R+L=J I think it is true and Jon is actually a Targaryen, but if he gets resurrected eventually fact that he is the rightful heir to the throne will come out, however when offered the throne he will turn it down, because he has seen the horrors of feudalism and he will change the system.

Daenerys is the rightful heir to the iron throne.  Jon is nothing more than a Targaryen bastard if that.  Tyrion could possibly be a Targaryen bastard.  Aegon is either a Targaryen or a Blackfyre. 

The phrase "the three-headed dragon" and the sigil of House Targaryen loses its meaning unless Dany can find two more people to serve as her wing men.  Those wing men will need to have Targaryen blood or the phrase loses its meaning. 

  1. Daenerys on Drogon. 
  2. Tyrion on Viserion.
  3. Aegon Blackfyre on Rhaegal

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always preferred Jaime and Cersei to be Aerys. I feel it really undermines Tyrion's relation with Tywin. Not sure how any of this could be confirmed one way or the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And especially the rumor about Joanna enjoying a short reign as Aerys' paramour is very difficult to imagine as a mere rumor. A reign as a paramour implies visibility. It would mean Joanna was greatly favored by the king, was constantly at her side at court, visibly and publicly touched or caressed by him, etc. Else the 'rumor' would just have speculated that Joanna may have been fucked by Aerys behind closed door. But she would then not have enjoyed a reign as his paramour.

Sure, for the people not being at court this would have been 'a rumor' as pretty much all information coming from KL would be. But for those at court it wouldn't have been a rumor at all. It would have been pretty obvious.

How on earth do you know the bolded part?

Also, if Joanna was truly openly Aerys' paramour, I don't think she would've married anyone anytime soon, not just because of Tywin not wanting to "feast on another man's leavings". Joanna is pretty far away from inheriting Casterly Rock (or inheriting anything for that matter) and if Joanna was openly Aerys' mistress, that would've seriously lowered her chances of finding a good husband.

Aerys was not Aegon IV where families would throw their daughters at him for cash and prices and the Lannisters, especially Tywin, are proud. If Joanna had been openly showing affection that could've been thought of as sexual and if the rumours were true, she would've disgraced her family.

 

But also, in regards to the "rumour" about Joanna being Aerys' paramour, for all we know it could've been started by Aerys himself to spite Tywin, similarily to how Aegon IV started the rumours of infidelity between Naerys and Aemon. Similarily to Aegon IV, Aerys had several lickspittles around who would most likely be more than happy to spread rumours such as these if it would please Aerys and gain them favours from him.

Also please note that we are not specifically told when the rumours started. For all we know, Aerys could've started the rumours after Joanna's death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will just state my thoughts on Tyrion's parentage. Believe what you want!

I believe Tyrion is probably a Chimera - he has genetic material from both Aerys and Tywin. I assume Aerys raped or pressured Joanne into sex and she was not going to tell Tywin as that would make him move to defy the King. She then either went immediately and had sex with Tywin in case she was pregnant, or that just happened.

A Chimera was a mythical beast like the Griffin, made of lion goat and 'serpent'' (but dragons are sometimes called serpents in medieval writing). The name Chimera was thus later adopted to explain the real world phenomenon of off-spring that started as twins, but were absorbed into one embryo. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(mythology)

When I first saw someone float the Chimera theory on the forum I thought 'why do these people insist on concocting this rubbish?' Now I am more inclined to believe it than not. However, if true, there is no-one alive to confirm it - Targ blood in Tyrion may arise in TWOW as a suspicion if the dragons accept him. After all, he made that prediction about Ben Plumm himself. I can't see that there would ever be any proof. It would remain as a thing in the books that would have gone unobserved by most readers if not for websites such as this. 

Reasons for thinking Tyrion may be a Chimera:

  • he is described as not just a dwarf but a particularly deformed and odd looking one
  • he has two different coloured eyes and also hair which is not just of two different colours but two different textures
  • I agree the stuff about dreaming of riding dragons and so on is all highly equivocal and no proof of Targ-ness, but its still is consistent with the possibility. 
  • The fact that chimera begin as twins is consistent with Joanne's record of having produced twins already

I personally like the Chimera idea because it means

  • The little bit of information about Aerys lusting after Joanna has led readers to think that Jaime and Cersei may be Aerys' bastards, but I would see this as a red herring because its Tyrion who has the bloodline.
  • Tyrion can be totally Tywin's son (as he seems to be intellectually and psychologically), because of nature as wells nurture, and at the same time have some targ features that are an asset to him.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Let's start of with the obvious. I hate this theory. It's campy, cheesy, stupid, doesn't fit in with the story of ASOIAF, nowhere near enough build up and it can be debunked solely by the title.

Tyrion is the Mad King's son according to this theory meaning he isn't a Targaryen, no his last name becomes either Hill or Waters. One might say that he might have been legitimized but to that I say, by whom. No Baratheon would legitimize him, Robb wouldn't, Balon or Euron wouldn't care and for Aegon and Dany he is a threat to their claim if legitimized. And no one suspected Tyrion of not being Tywin's son except Tywin.

Another reason I think people like this theory is so that Tyrion isn't a kinslayer and didn't murder his own father. Well Tyrion either way is a kinslayer because Tywin is also his second cousin. Also in the dark world of ASOIAF why would George R.R. Martin rob us of a main character killing their own father.

Also the story that we are told that a lot of people presume is about Tywin and Aerys being best of friends and by the end of the story being worst of enemies. Not about Tyrion secretly being the Mad King's bastard. It ruins the entire point of the story we are told.

Also doesn't the fact that the show cut out Tyrion's description from the book mean something to you? It means they aren't important.

One might bring up the fact that Tyrion was obsessed with Dragons when he was little but come on, he is a kid and dragons are cool from the eyes of a kid. What child wouldn't want to be able to ride a dragon.

Also the point of Tyrion's character is that he is a Lannister, not a secret Targaryen Bastard. The difference in physical description is supposed to mean that he is different.

Also Aerys is not one to be loyal to one women. He was always one to lay with however he wanted and then never again. He only stayed loyal to Rhealla (sorry if I mespelled her name).

And Tyrion is Tywin's son (I'm not speaking from the perspective that I believe that Tyrion is actually Tywin's son but you know being Your father's son, from a personality perspective), Tywin hates what he sees in Tyrion because Tywin is the same thing only Tyrion is an ugly dwarf. If Tyrion was just a bookish boy, never slept with whores, wasn't a drunk and wasn't very good from a political standpoint (not that he is or else he wouldn't be in exile, but he has made the occasional great political move, (bribing the Hill Clansmen, figuring out who was Cersei's spy by using Myrcella and Tommen marriages and fostering, putting forward the notion of Joffrey wedding Margery) but at the same time he only focused on Cersei and let Varys and Littlefinger scheme all that they wanted.

Now if you want to know my thoughts on R+L=J I think it is true and Jon is actually a Targaryen, but if he gets resurrected eventually fact that he is the rightful heir to the throne will come out, however when offered the throne he will turn it down, because he has seen the horrors of feudalism and he will change the system.

Why Tyrion has to be a bastard?

Aerys as the king might secretly marry Joanna as a second wife by Valyrian tradition.

Just like Jon and Lyanna case, and even more reasonably because Aerys is actually a king, not just a prince. 

Therefore Tyrion will be a trueborn Targ. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but we have been told specifically that Aerys lusted after Joanna. So we're being led to suspect the parentage of the twins, or Tyrion, or all of them. If it's just the twins, then Tywin had only one child in a long and loving marriage. Did he have fertility problems? So did he have any children at all? Or maybe fantasy genetics apply, and Tyrion's mismatched eyes are meant to suggest he's some sort of chimera with two fathers. We'll never know.

Anyway, there's more to it than childish dreams.

Fire is the champion of the Targs, and Tyrion uses it to extremes in his defence of King's Landing - he burns the countryside beforehand, and fills the battlefield with wildfire. He is not afraid himself, and fights like a hero.

At the other end of the scale, he really likes hot, spicy food - he goes to all the trouble of bringing his own pepper on the trip to the Wall. Compare that with Dany and her preference for spicy perfumes.

Finally, he has made himself an expert on dragon lore, which is not easy considering how rare knowledge of dragons is in these times. That speaks of quite an obsession continuing though his adult years.

Interesting about the hot, spicy food. Myrcella seemed to like them too in Dorne, even though a big, strong man like Oakheart could not tolerate them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

snip

I think the significance here is not whether Tyrion will every be acknowledged as a legitimate Targ and have some claim to the iron Throne, but that he might have some sort of genetic inheritance to the Targ bloodline and whatever abilities it provides.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Castellan said:

I will just state my thoughts on Tyrion's parentage. Believe what you want!

I believe Tyrion is probably a Chimera - he has genetic material from both Aerys and Tywin. I assume Aerys raped or pressured Joanne into sex and she was not going to tell Tywin as that would make him move to defy the King. She then either went immediately and had sex with Tywin in case she was pregnant, or that just happened.

A Chimera was a mythical beast like the Griffin, made of lion goat and 'serpent'' (but dragons are sometimes called serpents in medieval writing). The name Chimera was thus later adopted to explain the real world phenomenon of off-spring that started as twins, but were absorbed into one embryo. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(mythology)

When I first saw someone float the Chimera theory on the forum I thought 'why do these people insist on concocting this rubbish?' Now I am more inclined to believe it than not. However, if true, there is no-one alive to confirm it - Targ blood in Tyrion may arise in TWOW as a suspicion if the dragons accept him. After all, he made that prediction about Ben Plumm himself. I can't see that there would ever be any proof. It would remain as a thing in the books that would have gone unobserved by most readers if not for websites such as this. 

Reasons for thinking Tyrion may be a Chimera:

  • he is described as not just a dwarf but a particularly deformed and odd looking one
  • he has two different coloured eyes and also hair which is not just of two different colours but two different textures
  • I agree the stuff about dreaming of riding dragons and so on is all highly equivocal and no proof of Targ-ness, but its still is consistent with the possibility. 
  • The fact that chimera begin as twins is consistent with Joanne's record of having produced twins already

I personally like the Chimera idea because it means

  • The little bit of information about Aerys lusting after Joanna has led readers to think that Jaime and Cersei may be Aerys' bastards, but I would see this as a red herring because its Tyrion who has the bloodline.
  • Tyrion can be totally Tywin's son (as he seems to be intellectually and psychologically), because of nature as wells nurture, and at the same time have some targ features that are an asset to him.

 

 

Now THIS theory, I actually really like!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

How on earth do you know the bolded part?

Also, if Joanna was truly openly Aerys' paramour, I don't think she would've married anyone anytime soon, not just because of Tywin not wanting to "feast on another man's leavings". Joanna is pretty far away from inheriting Casterly Rock (or inheriting anything for that matter) and if Joanna was openly Aerys' mistress, that would've seriously lowered her chances of finding a good husband.

Aerys was not Aegon IV where families would throw their daughters at him for cash and prices and the Lannisters, especially Tywin, are proud. If Joanna had been openly showing affection that could've been thought of as sexual and if the rumours were true, she would've disgraced her family.

 

But also, in regards to the "rumour" about Joanna being Aerys' paramour, for all we know it could've been started by Aerys himself to spite Tywin, similarily to how Aegon IV started the rumours of infidelity between Naerys and Aemon. Similarily to Aegon IV, Aerys had several lickspittles around who would most likely be more than happy to spread rumours such as these if it would please Aerys and gain them favours from him.

Also please note that we are not specifically told when the rumours started. For all we know, Aerys could've started the rumours after Joanna's death.

Never once anywhere is any kind of paramour relationship or status stated or remotely suggested. Even Barry says it was sexual assault (by modern definition).

So clearly we have to go with Tywin the Cuckold

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Sure good as a trial by combat. Let's go with that. There is no rumor that she was his paramour. That is weasel wording at best. It's conjuring acts and history out of thin air. At no point do we get anything, even from Barristan, saying it was desired. Barristan holds back a lot and says that he took unwanted liberties. That was to Dany. Surely if there was any reciprocal desire it would have been "she was your father's paramour." She just got done hearing about Llweyn having a paramour. 

Barristan is cut off by Hizdahr when he is trying to tell Daenerys about the true loves of her parents. Also note that he is not all that keen to tell her bad things about her parents. And Dany doesn't ask him about her parents' paramours or lovers but merely whom they would have married if they had been able to follow their hearts. That is a different question. But it is quite clear that Selmy hasn't yet told Daenerys everything what he knows.

Quote

I am going to stick with Tywin loved being a cuckold and preferred to watch it though. Just as compelling and far more entertaining.

That is not necessarily as ridiculous as it sounds. If Joanna had an affair with Aerys Tywin most likely knew. And he was either unable to do anything about it or he approved. And who knows? Perhaps Joanna having sex was what made Tywin Hand, and not Tywin's competence.

5 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I have always preferred Jaime and Cersei to be Aerys. I feel it really undermines Tyrion's relation with Tywin. Not sure how any of this could be confirmed one way or the other.

That idea has been completely debunked by TWoIaF. And it would have really undermined Jaime and Cersei's relationship with Tywin. They are most definitely his children. Dream Joanna even confirmed that while completely ignoring Tyrion.

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

How on earth do you know the bolded part?

I don't know for sure. But that is what the rumor implies. If such a rumor wasn't true Yandel could have found better sources to dismiss it than biased Pycelle. By the time he was writing his book those things were not that far in the past.

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Also, if Joanna was truly openly Aerys' paramour, I don't think she would've married anyone anytime soon, not just because of Tywin not wanting to "feast on another man's leavings". Joanna is pretty far away from inheriting Casterly Rock (or inheriting anything for that matter) and if Joanna was openly Aerys' mistress, that would've seriously lowered her chances of finding a good husband.

The idea is indeed that Tywin either pimped Joanna to Aerys or she decided she preferred the king over the heir to Casterly Rock, and Tywin had to accept that, just as the fathers, brothers, or (future) husbands of Aegon IV's mistresses had to accept it. It might even be that it was Joanna fucking Aerys who ensured that Tywin became Hand. 

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Aerys was not Aegon IV where families would throw their daughters at him for cash and prices and the Lannisters, especially Tywin, are proud. If Joanna had been openly showing affection that could've been thought of as sexual and if the rumours were true, she would've disgraced her family.

We know Tywin did feast on another man's leaving - Tyrion's, when he fucked Shae. If Tyrion can fuck the lover of a dwarf he sure as hell can marry the former lover of a king.

One would also assume that the Tywin-Joanna match was arranged before Joanna became Aerys' lover.

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

But also, in regards to the "rumour" about Joanna being Aerys' paramour, for all we know it could've been started by Aerys himself to spite Tywin, similarily to how Aegon IV started the rumours of infidelity between Naerys and Aemon. Similarily to Aegon IV, Aerys had several lickspittles around who would most likely be more than happy to spread rumours such as these if it would please Aerys and gain them favours from him.

Then Yandel should have known that, especially since Pycelle is one of his main sources. He was there the entire time. People still know that Aegon IV was behind the rumors about Naerys and Aemon. And one also assumes that Tywin would have resigned much sooner had his former buddy Aerys spread such rumors if they weren't true.

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Also please note that we are not specifically told when the rumours started. For all we know, Aerys could've started the rumours after Joanna's death.

Tywin would have still been Aerys' Hand after that for another nine years.

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Never once anywhere is any kind of paramour relationship or status stated or remotely suggested. Even Barry says it was sexual assault (by modern definition).

At the wedding. We don't know how it was before. And we don't know whether Joanna liked it or not. One really wonders what Aerys did to raise some eyebrows during the bedding. You are supposed to touch a woman then, just as women are touching the man. It must have been something as extreme as him fingering or licking her. And one really wonders whether she disliked that all that much. Tywin would have been pissed that Aerys did this in public.

Aerys just fondling Joanna's breasts wouldn't have been improper during a bedding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Let's start of with the obvious. I hate this theory. It's campy, cheesy, stupid, doesn't fit in with the story of ASOIAF, nowhere near enough build up and it can be debunked solely by the title.

Tyrion is the Mad King's son according to this theory meaning he isn't a Targaryen, no his last name becomes either Hill or Waters. One might say that he might have been legitimized but to that I say, by whom. No Baratheon would legitimize him, Robb wouldn't, Balon or Euron wouldn't care and for Aegon and Dany he is a threat to their claim if legitimized. And no one suspected Tyrion of not being Tywin's son except Tywin.

Another reason I think people like this theory is so that Tyrion isn't a kinslayer and didn't murder his own father. Well Tyrion either way is a kinslayer because Tywin is also his second cousin. Also in the dark world of ASOIAF why would George R.R. Martin rob us of a main character killing their own father.

Also the story that we are told that a lot of people presume is about Tywin and Aerys being best of friends and by the end of the story being worst of enemies. Not about Tyrion secretly being the Mad King's bastard. It ruins the entire point of the story we are told.

Also doesn't the fact that the show cut out Tyrion's description from the book mean something to you? It means they aren't important.

One might bring up the fact that Tyrion was obsessed with Dragons when he was little but come on, he is a kid and dragons are cool from the eyes of a kid. What child wouldn't want to be able to ride a dragon.

Also the point of Tyrion's character is that he is a Lannister, not a secret Targaryen Bastard. The difference in physical description is supposed to mean that he is different.

Also Aerys is not one to be loyal to one women. He was always one to lay with however he wanted and then never again. He only stayed loyal to Rhealla (sorry if I mespelled her name).

And Tyrion is Tywin's son (I'm not speaking from the perspective that I believe that Tyrion is actually Tywin's son but you know being Your father's son, from a personality perspective), Tywin hates what he sees in Tyrion because Tywin is the same thing only Tyrion is an ugly dwarf. If Tyrion was just a bookish boy, never slept with whores, wasn't a drunk and wasn't very good from a political standpoint (not that he is or else he wouldn't be in exile, but he has made the occasional great political move, (bribing the Hill Clansmen, figuring out who was Cersei's spy by using Myrcella and Tommen marriages and fostering, putting forward the notion of Joffrey wedding Margery) but at the same time he only focused on Cersei and let Varys and Littlefinger scheme all that they wanted.

Now if you want to know my thoughts on R+L=J I think it is true and Jon is actually a Targaryen, but if he gets resurrected eventually fact that he is the rightful heir to the throne will come out, however when offered the throne he will turn it down, because he has seen the horrors of feudalism and he will change the system.

I agree with all of this.  But, unfortunately, it strongly looks like the author is going to give us the cheesy, campy stupid reveal that Tyrion is a secret Targ and all three 'main' characters are Targaryens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't expect the author to give us a definite answer.  Real life is full of uncertainties.  Paternity and parentage could not be determined accurately until DNA testing.  That kind of science is out of place in the medieval world of our story.  We will clues that support he's a Targaryen as well as clues that support he's the son of Tywin.  Martin will leave it up to the reader to make up her mind on Tyrion.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Barristan is cut off by Hizdahr when he is trying to tell Daenerys about the true loves of her parents. Also note that he is not all that keen to tell her bad things about her parents. And Dany doesn't ask him about her parents' paramours or lovers but merely whom they would have married if they had been able to follow their hearts. That is a different question. But it is quite clear that Selmy hasn't yet told Daenerys everything what he knows.

That is not necessarily as ridiculous as it sounds. If Joanna had an affair with Aerys Tywin most likely knew. And he was either unable to do anything about it or he approved. And who knows? Perhaps Joanna having sex was what made Tywin Hand, and not Tywin's competence.

"I won't tell you anything bad about your parents, but your dad totally sexually assaulted Tywin's wife during the wedding feast. Oh and she was so enamored with him later than she was his paramour despite him continually insulting her in front of everyone."

And yes it is exactly as ridiculous as it sounds, particularly the part where Tywin likes to watch. It is, however, far more entertaining. 

Oh goody more baseless speculation. Joanna banged Tywin's way to the top. Was the reason he kept being hand after Aerys started hating him because Aerys' kept using Joanna's corpse? That seems like a good place to start.

“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

So you're right Barry didn't get to finish but how you got out of it that she ends up a paramour is beyond me. If anything Barry's insight basically tells me Aerys hadn't gotten to have sex with her as of her wedding night as far as he knew. He was in the KG. He saw a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, E.S. Dinah said:

I don't expect the author to give us a definite answer.  Real life is full of uncertainties.  Paternity and parentage could not be determined accurately until DNA testing.  That kind of science is out of place in the medieval world of our story.  We will clues that support he's a Targaryen as well as clues that support he's the son of Tywin.  Martin will leave it up to the reader to make up her mind on Tyrion.  

This is the best case scenario, that he leaves it unresolved, but the fact that he went out of his way to throw gasoline on the previously 'crackpot only fire' in the world book strongly suggests that he intends Tyrion to be a secret Targ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Cas Stark said:

This is the best case scenario, that he leaves it unresolved, but the fact that he went out of his way to throw gasoline on the previously 'crackpot only fire' in the world book strongly suggests that he intends Tyrion to be a secret Targ.

Did he throw gasoline on that fire?  He fuels a lot of fires.  Maybe they don't turn into anything important or maybe they do.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

This is the best case scenario, that he leaves it unresolved, but the fact that he went out of his way to throw gasoline on the previously 'crackpot only fire' in the world book strongly suggests that he intends Tyrion to be a secret Targ.

He won't leave something as central to the last books as Tyrion's identity up in the air. If Tyrion ends up a dragon rider, we'll either get definitive proof he is Aerys' son or we'll find out that you only need to pacify a wild dragon with food a la Nettles, who may or may not have been a dragonseed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

"I won't tell you anything bad about your parents, but your dad totally sexually assaulted Tywin's wife during the wedding feast. Oh and she was so enamored with him later than she was his paramour despite him continually insulting her in front of everyone."

You seem to be confused about the time line. Joanna would have been deflowered by Aerys and been his mistress before she married Lord Tywin, not thereafter.

She would also have not been insulted by him at this time, and neither would Tywin.

In fact, the idea of the paramour scenario is that Aerys and Joanna had an affair. Then the whole thing ended eventually, Tywin took Aerys' leavings and married Joanna. Aerys continued to be interested in Joanna, leading to Queen Rhaella firing her as her lady-in-waiting. Aerys later tried to rekindle their relationship when the court was at Casterly Rock. That's when Tywin and Aerys' relationship first soured. 

Whether the whole thing in 272 AC was a rape or consensual sex is completely unclear at this point.

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 Oh goody more baseless speculation. Joanna banged Tywin's way to the top. Was the reason he kept being hand after Aerys started hating him because Aerys' kept using Joanna's corpse? That seems like a good place to start.

The reason why Tywin remained Hand as long as he did is because Aerys II did not fire him. And that's part of Aerys' erratic character.

However, it is rather telling that Aerys refused to accept Tywin's resignation the day after Aerys insulted Joanna's breasts. Something put Aerys in a good mood that morning.

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

So you're right Barry didn't get to finish but how you got out of it that she ends up a paramour is beyond me. If anything Barry's insight basically tells me Aerys hadn't gotten to have sex with her as of her wedding night as far as he knew. He was in the KG. He saw a lot.

Barristan also has a lot of problems addressing the details of Aerys' madness despite the fact that he must have seen all symptoms of it. He is very reluctant to talk badly about his former king.

I agree that Barristan not mentioning the paramour thing could be a hint that this is just a rumor. But we don't know that yet. Back in 259 AC Barristan wasn't yet a Kingsguard so the rumor about Aerys deflowering Joanna could be true even if he doesn't mention it.

But even if it was a rumor it has nothing to do with the question whether Tyrion is Aerys' son or not. He was conceived much later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You seem to be confused about the time line. Joanna would have been deflowered by Aerys and been his mistress before she married Lord Tywin, not thereafter.

She would also have not been insulted by him at this time, and neither would Tywin.

In fact, the idea of the paramour scenario is that Aerys and Joanna had an affair. Then the whole thing ended eventually, Tywin took Aerys' leavings and married Joanna. Aerys continued to be interested in Joanna, leading to Queen Rhaella firing her as her lady-in-waiting. Aerys later tried to rekindle their relationship when the court was at Casterly Rock. That's when Tywin and Aerys' relationship first soured. 

Whether the whole thing in 272 AC was a rape or consensual sex is completely unclear at this point.

The reason why Tywin remained Hand as long as he did is because Aerys II did not fire him. And that's part of Aerys' erratic character.

However, it is rather telling that Aerys refused to accept Tywin's resignation the day after Aerys insulted Joanna's breasts. Something put Aerys in a good mood that morning.

Barristan also has a lot of problems addressing the details of Aerys' madness despite the fact that he must have seen all symptoms of it. He is very reluctant to talk badly about his former king.

I agree that Barristan not mentioning the paramour thing could be a hint that this is just a rumor. But we don't know that yet. Back in 259 AC Barristan wasn't yet a Kingsguard so the rumor about Aerys deflowering Joanna could be true even if he doesn't mention it.

But even if it was a rumor it has nothing to do with the question whether Tyrion is Aerys' son or not. He was conceived much later.

Nah I'm not confused by the timeline of something that didn't happen. Aerys had dozens of mistresses and none lasted longer than 6 months. Joanna was not his mistress or his paramour, so we can safely ignore that.

The whole 272 AC would definitely not have been consensual. He had just humiliated her in front of the entire court and pissed Tywin off. You know what made Aerys happy? Humiliating Tywin, not raping Joanna.  Barry doesn't tell Dany a lot of things, but he absolutely lays out how poorly Aerys behaved towards Joanna and then sexually assaulted her. Great relationship stuff there. Total paramour quality. There is no rumor about Aerys deflowering Joanna. Please give some textual evidence for that. You keep repeating it without any evidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Nah I'm not confused by the timeline of something that didn't happen. Aerys had dozens of mistresses and none lasted longer than 6 months. Joanna was not his mistress or his paramour, so we can safely ignore that.

Obviously Joanna was an exception. After all, he had a thing for her for a very long time, and that's confirmed. Aerys certainly can discard a mistress and rekindle his interest in her some time later. That is not mutually exclusive.

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The whole 272 AC would definitely not have been consensual. He had just humiliated her in front of the entire court and pissed Tywin off. You know what made Aerys happy? Humiliating Tywin, not raping Joanna.  Barry doesn't tell Dany a lot of things, but he absolutely lays out how poorly Aerys behaved towards Joanna and then sexually assaulted her. Great relationship stuff there. Total paramour quality. There is no rumor about Aerys deflowering Joanna. Please give some textual evidence for that. You keep repeating it without any evidence.

You obviously don't know your stuff. The source for Joanna being Aerys' paramour is the same sidebar in TWoIaF that also mentions that Aerys deflowered Joanna in the night of his father's coronation. 

Aerys behavior towards Joanna can easily enough be explained with him being pissed that their affair ended and was not rekindled later on. And if the king insults you in front of the court this is certainly bad form. But he is still the king. If he told Joanna that he intended to apologize to her in his apartments she would have come. She would have had no other choice. And the man could be very charming and generous if he wanted to. And we don't know whether Joanna actually loved Tywin. We only know that Tywin was besotted with Joanna. But that doesn't mean she returned those feelings in the same degree.

But in any case, back when Joanna allegedly enjoyed her reign as his paramour Aerys certainly wouldn't have publicly humiliated her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...