My thoughts on the Tyrion Targaryen Theory

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

There's a thing that rarely gets mentioned in support of Tyrion having Targaryen blood. In ADWD -- I think -- Dany is thinking about how Targaryens are supposed to have magical anti-illness properties.  She recalls that she has never once in her life been sick. And not long therafter, lo and behold, Tyrion gets dunked into the fucking mega-plague-river, potent enough to infect Jon Connington's hand, which was in there for a second. He gets Styx water in his eyes, 100% of his body, and I think specifically he swallows a bunch. Aaaanad nothing.

It is not a coincidence, or dumb luck. At least, not if the author is competent. Which he is. 

So one more attribute of the Targs' objective genetic superiority is disease resistance, which Tyrion clearly has. 

 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You're not talking about those men in general, but we get quotes like this: 

Pycelle didn't change his opinion on Tywin. And thus his assessment of his character is worthless because we know Tywin never was the man Pycelle believed he was.

Pycelle's assessment of Tywin's character is wrong. Deal with it. This doesn't mean Pycelle is not also right on occasion.

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Sure. Either Pycelle is a trustworthy resource on Tywin and his family or not. If he's not, then you're going against canon text from the mouth of his sister, brother, daughter, and sons.

Tywin's family didn't live at court. And they show again and again that they didn't know the real man. Kevan might have, but Genna, Cersei, Jaima, and Tyrion do not. They only saw Tywin's public persona. He was never honest with them.

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And your paper thin justification doesn't hold up given the enormity in difference of circumstances and situation. You really really really want that sidebar to be demonstrably false but don't have anything to back it up. So you take the exact opposite of a generally reliable Lannister fanboi/toadie says in a contemporary letter on the basis of a single, old man's actions with a hooker.

I don't really care all that much about those rumors. Perhaps nothing of that happened. That is not important in relation to the question discussed. The question is whether Aerys is Tyrion's biological father or not.

But it is pretty obvious that George deliberately chose to give Yandel this bad Pycelle argument instead of, say, an argument that could have laid the rumors at rest much more effectively. Say, by pointing out that Aerys II most likely spread those rumors or that Joanna never was not attending Jaehaerys II's coronation or spending time at court early on during Aerys II's reign.

The point of the Pycelle argument is to give the reader a good laugh: 'Yeah, right, Tywin didn't feast on another man's leaving! Tell that to Shae!'

6 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Perhaps Tywin chose Shae because he knew Tyrion was somewhat an expert on whores and figured Shae would have to be really good if Tyrion chose her as his only mistress.  

That sounds very odd. Would you trust your own son on whores? Would Tywin trust Tyrion on anything? He doesn't believe Tyrion in innocent in the Joffrey murder thing but he considers him a good expert on whores? Tywin himself also seems to be an expert on whores - he was most likely the Hand who had the tunnel into Chataya's built - he would not need Tyrion's opinion on that matter.

And again - if he wanted a good fuck he could look for a capable and good-looking whore. But why on earth take Shae for a good fuck? Would you get horny fucking the woman who publicly ridiculed and humiliated your own son and family? Under what circumstances could you imagine yourself doing that?

I could see myself wanting compassion, solace, and perhaps some entertainment in the night before I have my son executed. But who on earth would get that from the main witness against that son? It just doesn't make much sense. Especially not the part about Shae wearing the Chain of the Hand. That indicates that Tywin's sex was of a very special sort.

[Guilherme Rubira]

We must consider as well that Tyrion is younger than Jamie/Cersei.
So, many years after Joanna's wedding Aerys would have to rape or persuade her to cheat on Tywin.
And after her twins pregnancy I doubt she was at her beauty apex. 

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

There's a thing that rarely gets mentioned in support of Tyrion having Targaryen blood. In ADWD -- I think -- Dany is thinking about how Targaryens are supposed to have magical anti-illness properties.  She recalls that she has never once in her life been sick. And not long therafter, lo and behold, Tyrion gets dunked into the fucking mega-plague-river, potent enough to infect Jon Connington's hand, which was in there for a second. He gets Styx water in his eyes, 100% of his body, and I think specifically he swallows a bunch. Aaaanad nothing.

It is not a coincidence, or dumb luck. At least, not if the author is competent. Which he is. 

So one more attribute of the Targs' objective genetic superiority is disease resistance, which Tyrion clearly has. 

 

Hmmmm... The World book would disagree with such an assertion:

 

Quote

 

But then the Great Spring Sickness swept the Seven Kingdoms, affecting all save the Vale and Dorne, where they closed the ports and mountain passes. Worst hit of all was King's Landing. The High Septon, the Seven's voice on earth, died, as did a third of the Most Devout, and nearly all the silent sisters in the city. Corpses were piled in the ruins of the Dragonpit until they stood ten feet high and, in the end, Bloodraven had the pyromancers burn the corpses where they lay. A quarter of the city went up in flames along with them, but there was nothing else to be done.

Worse still, the sons of Baelor Breakspear were amongst those carried away, as was Daeron II, whom many called the Good. He had reigned for five-and-twenty years, and most of those years saw peace and plenty for the realm. (tWoIaF - The Targaryen Kings - Daeron II)

 

 

Now there are rumors started by his father Aegon IV that Daeron wasn't his son. But even if so, Daeron's mother Naerys was still Targ and her alleged lover, her other brother Aemon Targaryen. Baelor Breakspear's two sons were Daeron II's grandsons. Anyhow, 3 Targs succumbed to a disease.

 

What is significant to the Bridge of Dream is that it's related to Garin's Curse, that was aimed at those of the dragonlord blood. Just as Tyrion reveals Aegon's a Targ after passing the Bridge, they end up having gone rund, and this time the stone men jump with several, almost pre-planned to get Aegon, but also targeting Tyrion. 

[Lord Varys]

The idea that the Targaryens are in general immune to (most) diseases is clearly wrong. That is not only confirmed by the Great Spring Sickness but also by Septa Maegelle, Aegon III, and likely by Aerys I, too.

However, the Mother of Dragons might indeed be special, and the other two heads of the dragon, too. The fact that Dany was never sick, didn't mount the Pale Mare is striking. And the same goes for Tyrion not catching greyscale and avoiding the Pale Male, too, at least of yet. Even POV characters could easily enough catch the Pale Mare. It doesn't have to be as lethal as greyscale or the grey plague. They could survive it somehow.

George once said a main topic in ADwD would be sickness, and plagues feature rather prominently in the book, but it was a huge letdown that no major character caught and died of one of the main diseases. The only exception as of yet is Connington. In Meereen half of Dany's court could have been carried away by the Pale Mare. Perhaps something of that sort is going to come, perhaps not. We'll have to wait and see.

[Lord Wraith]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That idea has been completely debunked by TWoIaF. And it would have really undermined Jaime and Cersei's relationship with Tywin. They are most definitely his children. Dream Joanna even confirmed that while completely ignoring Tyrion.

That portion of the World Book is mostly written by Pycelle. Plenty of room for bias there. Still you are probably right.

Why was dream Joanna crying when Jaime said that her and Cersei were the children Tywin always wanted. Could it be because they weren't his?

[ravenous reader]

On 6/8/2017 at 2:19 PM, Agent 326 said:

Let's start of with the obvious. I hate this theory. It's campy, cheesy, stupid

Although I have come to accept the evidence in favor of it, I will never like this theory aesthetically.  I think it's a major cop-out from the author, but maybe we should grant him some slack, given his problematic personal life.  He had such a strained relationship with his biological father, from whom he was estranged, that it's no wonder that he would wish to distance himself from him, and more importantly his feelings of hostility towards him, as he works through the father-son dynamic in his fiction.  On a meta-level, in other words, I think GRRM is grappling with these conflicted feelings towards his own father, indulging these feelings while simultaneously distancing himself from them, by couching the dynamic in terms of secretly-illegitimate dragon-rider kitsch in order to slip under the radar, taking the edge off and granting his feelings an air of respectability.  It's highly significant that Tyrion -- GRRM's alter ego -- is let off the charge of patricide on a technicality (because Tywin's 'not really' his father).  Thus, the rug is pulled out from under Tyrion's accountability and the overarching dramatic irony, no matter what anyone says.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

That portion of the World Book is mostly written by Pycelle. Plenty of room for bias there. Still you are probably right.

Since nobody in the books even suspects or considers the possibility that Jaime and Cersei might be Aerys' bastards there is no reason to assume anybody wants hide anything there.

The fact that Joanna left court shortly after her marriage and then seldom returned is a fact. There is no chance she was impregnated by Aerys back when she was still in KL nor is there any reason to believe she visited KL around the time the twins were conceived. And Aerys only visited Casterly Rock after Tytos' death, long after the birth of the twins.

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Why was dream Joanna crying when Jaime said that her and Cersei were the children Tywin always wanted. Could it be because they weren't his?

No, that is because Jaime doesn't seem to understand what she wants to tell him (whatever that is). The child she doesn't mention there at all is Tyrion. That is very odd.

[Helikzhan]

Tywin and Aerys actually hated each other. Tywin for his pride and Aerys for his son. It was not a budding relationship. It's also very evident that the killing of the Targaryen babes was on the order of Tywin. That's how much Tywin and Aerys hated each other. They tried to end family lines.  

That Aerys lusted after Joanna simply made the relationship worse. My take on it is that A+J=T was not a loving affair. I think Aerys had his way with Joanna to spite Tywin. Maybe booze was involved. Aerys wanted to humiliate Tywin in the worst way he possibly could by putting Jamie on the KG. What would stop him from other humiliations like fucking the woman Tywin married? 

And if anyone thinks house Lannister would go to war over it think again. House Lannister at that point had no proof aside from Joanna admitting it which would hurt Tywin and the house deeply. So she buried the truth and had the child. Had she lived, she may have eventually admitted it. I do suspect Tywin knows that Tyrion is not his, dwarfism aside there seems to be a deep seated but unfounded hatred of Tyrion on the part of Tywin. 

In the end I suspect Tywin, like Ned was very proud of his house and they showed it in different ways. Nonetheless that pride cost them both. 

[BalerionTheCat]

A+J=T is one of the most commonly believed theory. But like the OP, I don't believe it. There is very little support for it and much against it. Mostly, Tyrion's mind is 100% like Tywin's, and nothing like Aerys'. For me, another thing is both Cersei and Joffrey are everything the bad Targaryens are. Consider the  likelihood without the heredity factor. And Tywin should have at least one true son. That way we have two sons killing their father. Funny that Aerys last words to Jaime were: "Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor".

[Lord Varys]

58 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

A+J=T is one of the most commonly believed theory. But like the OP, I don't believe it. There is very little support for it and much against it. Mostly, Tyrion's mind is 100% like Tywin's, and nothing like Aerys'. For me, another thing is both Cersei and Joffrey are everything the bad Targaryens are. Consider the  likelihood without the heredity factor. And Tywin should have at least one true son. That way we have two sons killing their father. Funny that Aerys last words to Jaime were: "Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor".

There is little evidence against the theory, actually. All hints we have actually cast doubt on the idea that Tywin is indeed Tyrion's biological father. Just as all real clues indicate that Ned is not Jon's father. The fact that many characters who don't know better believe the official story doesn't help. Then we could just as well cite Robb's belief that Joff is Robert's son as evidence in favor of that theory.

The Cersei-Jaime theory just doesn't fit well with the facts we have. It is basically impossible. And one should also note that neither a lust for power nor paranoia are something that is exclusively reserved for the Targaryens.

[chrisdaw]

Here's the point, which supersedes everything and was always going to be the point. Why the whole Tywin/Tyrion relationship exists.

 

Jon is Targaryen by birth, but raised as a Stark bastard and raised well.

Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard by birth but raised as a Lannister, and not well.

 

Jon has been provided a father figure to aspire to, Ned.

Tyrion has been given a father figure to not aspire to, Tywin.

 

They're going to have to choose, the both of them, to revert to their Targaryen lineage or not. Not in name so much but in action. As in they're going to be given the chance to do what a typical Targaryen would do, or what their blood fathers would do.

 

Because Jon was given by Ned a stronger identity to aspire to than is his biological father's Targaryen ways, he's going to reject the Targaryen choice and do what a Stark would do as taught by Ned. Which will lead to ultimate salvation.

Because Tyrion was failed by Tywin in his upbringing and not provided something stronger than his biological father's Targaryen way, he's going to choose the Targaryen path. Which will ultimately be destructive.

 

A better more succinct way to word it perhaps.

Because Ned was Ned and treated Jon like he did, Jon spends the series wishing he was his trueborn son and wished to be like him. So when Jon gets the chance to be someone else's son, he'll reject it.

Because Tywin was Tywin and treated Tyrion like he did, Tyrion spends the whole series cursing being born Tywin's son and that he is like him. So when Tyrion gets the chance to be someone else's son, he'll take it.

 

This is how in the end the Starks honour/duty/sacrifice etc will prove superior over Lannister traits. This is how the Starks win and how Ned wins over Tywin.

 

The story in quotes.

Quote

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man's sword he dreamt of …

Translation: Fuck all y'all Johnny-come-lately father figures. Ned Stark to the grave! And when the time comes, especially fuck the pedofire and blood father who went chasing prophetic dragons that happily coincided with teenage wolf's tail instead of being at home with his wife and children where he belonged, setting his father's failed mad Targ reign to rights.

Quote

Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

Yeah, which family is that you love Tyrion?

Quote

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

Fire and blood baby, Mad King all up in this shit.

[Lord Varys]

58 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Here's the point, which supersedes everything and was always going to be the point. Why the whole Tywin/Tyrion relationship exists.

 

Jon is Targaryen by birth, but raised as a Stark bastard and raised well.

Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard by birth but raised as a Lannister, and not well.

 

Jon has been provided a father figure to aspire to, Ned.

Tyrion has been given a father figure to not aspire to, Tywin.

It is not that easy. Eddard Stark stole Jon's true identity by making him a bastard. He also did little to nothing to prepare him to rule. Jon does not follow Ned's example as Lord Commander. He nearly fails to execute Janos Slynt personally, he does not eat with his men or keep close contact with them as Eddard Stark used to do.

Tyrion may not have been loved by Tywin but he lived a much more privileged life thanks to the fact that he was raised as Tywin's legitimate son. Not to mention that Tywin did indeed teach Tyrion some valuable lessons. Nothing indicates that Ned did something similar for Jon.

Tyrion will feel relieved when he learns he hasn't murdered his father. But he won't emulate Mad Aerys thereafter. Tywin will remain the man he raised, and Aerys just a name. Just as Rhaegar and Lyanna will just be names for Jon Snow. They are dead and gone.

Tyrion has had a very complex relationship with Tywin. Jaime murdering Aerys and Tyrion murdering Tywin certainly has the potential to become relevant in the coming conflicts, especially if they ever meet each other.

But Ned and Jon don't seem to have been particularly close. Nor does their relationship seem to have been particularly complex. That certainly gives Jon a lot of room to distance himself from his foster father in favor of his new family - which would be Daenerys and Tyrion.

And the whole Stark thing won't help Jon all that much with the fight against the Others. Eddard Stark and Robb Stark ignored the real danger and involved themselves in politics. But the whole promised prince/Azor Ahai thing makes it very likely that the key to victory lies there, and thus with the Targaryen side.

If Tyrion and/or Jon Snow end up playing a crucial role in that fight - and that's how things look like right now - then they will have to connect with their Targaryen heritage and identity in some fashion.

Their relationship with their half-siblings and cousins is likely going to change in the process of that, too.

[chrisdaw]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not that easy. Eddard Stark stole Jon's true identity by making him a bastard.

It is that easy and as I stated supersedes all else, such as everything you've written. Ned held above all else the sanctity of a child's life, and would not sacrifice it for anything, not even his precious honour. It was a theme pounded on his short screen time and then given over to Jon. And that is the decision that will fall to Jon and he will choose to follow in Ned's footsteps against the sacrifice of blood for fire. A rejection of his Targaryen father. And it will save the world.

Tyrion will emulate Aerys. He will in the end prove to be, as GRRM says, a villain. A failure at the final hurdle.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I think that Tyrion wouldn't have mismatched eyes if he was a full-blood Lannister. If I'm not mistaken, all Lannisters have green eyes and Tywin and Joanna were cousins. Jaime and Cersei have green eyes, so...

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

It is that easy and as I stated supersedes all else, such as everything you've written. Ned held above all else the sanctity of a child's life, and would not sacrifice it for anything, not even his precious honour. It was a theme pounded on his short screen time and then given over to Jon. And that is the decision that will fall to Jon and he will choose to follow in Ned's footsteps against the sacrifice of blood for fire. A rejection of his Targaryen father. And it will save the world.

It is good that you know the end of the series. Can you by any chance tell me where you read all that?

Jon better sacrifices a child if it is a child's life against humanity. This is not a fairy-tale setting. It may be hideous to do something like that but the world is not going to reward you just for taking the moral high ground. If that was the case Ned wouldn't have been killed.

But then, Ned never came back from the dead. Catelyn did. And while she was willing to set one of her family's greatest enemies in exchange for the freedom of her daughters she is no longer as, well, soft now that she has tasted death.

Jon has tasted death now, too. It will change him, most likely not for the better. The ancient Stark kings were cruel savages, and we are constantly reminded of that fact. If Jon sticks to his Stark legacy he is most likely destined to become even darker as Arya is right now. Men who broke the power of the Boltons didn't sit on the high horse.

But I'm not sure why we should assume Jon is ever going to be in a position where the life of a single child will matter to him all that much. When he chose 'Arya' over his vow he got himself killed. And earlier on he chose his vow over Ygritte, something Ned most likely wouldn't have done.

15 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion will emulate Aerys. He will in the end prove to be, as GRRM says, a villain. A failure at the final hurdle.

Tyrion is already a villain. He cold-heartedly and cruelly murdered a woman he professed to love. A woman that was used as a pawn by him and his family, and then killed by him. That is not something a hero does. However, he can still save humanity and become a hero in that sense. Even Littlefinger, Ramsay, Roose, and Gregor could help defeat the Others. They are threatened by them, too.

There is no reason to believe Tyrion will emulate Aerys, though. Aerys was a cruel and paranoid madman. Nobody wants to be like him, especially not Tyrion. That is made clear by the text, for instance when Tyrion compares Joffrey to Aerys. That isn't a compliment.

[Newstar]

On 6/8/2017 at 4:58 PM, Guilherme Rubira said:

I hate this theory, too.
It ignores the complex relationship between Tyrion and Tywin, specially the "shame" part.
Also, there is this strong quote:

 

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

Genna is not referring to biological parentage. She is referring to the fact that the only Lannister son capable of taking up Tywin's mantle is Tyrion and not Jaime. 

Genna's statement is preceded by Genna wondering who will protect the Lannisters now that Tywin is dead, and Jaime attempting to reassure her by saying that Tywin left a son (meaning himself), and Genna says that that's what she fears the most. Genna then gently contradicts him with this quote by saying, essentially, that despite Jaime's similarities to Tywin's siblings, he's no Tywin and he never will be, and he's unfit to take up the mantle of Lannister leadership. The only Lannister son able to do, due I suppose to his abilities and temperament, is Tyrion ("Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you"), and Tyrion is long gone as far as Genna knows, meaning the Lannisters are truly fucked.

I'm not sold on Tyrion being a Targaryen for a number of reasons, but Genna's quote is no proof of anything. In fact, it would be one of GRRM's little ironies if the son most like Tywin proved not to be his biological child.

 

Quote

 For me, another thing is both Cersei and Joffrey are everything the bad Targaryens are. Consider the  likelihood without the heredity factor. 

This isn't suggestive of anything. ASOIAF is full of characters even more vicious and insane than Cersei and Joffrey with no blood connection to the Targaryens: Euron, Ramsay, Lysa, etc. 

Also, speaking of the supposed effects of heredity, Myrcella apart from being beautiful is everything Cersei isn't: gentle, sweet-tempered and very clever. God knows where she got that from, since it sure as heck wasn't from Cersei or Jaime, both dumb jerks.

[PCK]

GRRM answered a question about who named Jon with "Jon was named by Ned. Tyrion by his father." So that should have been the end to that theory. I think from a character standpoint, Tywin had reason to suspect Tyrion may not be his, but could never prove anything one way or the other. Probably one of the many reasons he has such disdain for him.

[Lady bonehead]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think that Tyrion wouldn't have mismatched eyes if he was a full-blood Lannister. If I'm not mistaken, all Lannisters have green eyes and Tywin and Joanna were cousins. Jaime and Cersei have green eyes, so...

I don't think Tyrion's appearance is really all that relevant since he is clearly a mutant. You might as well theorize that Joanna had an affair with a performing dwarf!

On the other hand, J and C could have inherited their appearance from their mom regardless of who their father was.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, PCK said:

GRRM answered a question about who named Jon with "Jon was named by Ned. Tyrion by his father." So that should have been the end to that theory. I think from a character standpoint, Tywin had reason to suspect Tyrion may not be his, but could never prove anything one way or the other. Probably one of the many reasons he has such disdain for him.

That is a good point. GRRM took care to not say "father" for Jon. He didn't take care of that for Tyrion. Nothing anyone said is a definitive proof, one way or the other, if you don't want to believe. But some arguments are stronger than  others, are pushing more one way than the other.