My thoughts on the Tyrion Targaryen Theory

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, PCK said:

GRRM answered a question about who named Jon with "Jon was named by Ned. Tyrion by his father." So that should have been the end to that theory. I think from a character standpoint, Tywin had reason to suspect Tyrion may not be his, but could never prove anything one way or the other. Probably one of the many reasons he has such disdain for him.

 

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

That is a good point. GRRM took care to not say "father" for Jon. He didn't take care of that for Tyrion. Nothing anyone said is a definitive proof, one way or the other, if you don't want to believe. But some arguments are stronger than  others, are pushing more one way than the other.

That is basically irrelevant. For one, interviews and the like are not canon - not while they are not corroborated by actually published material.

But the more important part is that George usually does not spoil things. He is very aware of the fact that people have figured out who Jon Snow's actual parents are. He can hint at or acknowledge the fact that people theorize that Jon is not Ned's son.

Tyrion is an entirely different animal, though. Back when he was asked that question pretty much no one assumed that Tyrion might not be Tywin's son - and even if people did, back then George gave no concrete hint that Aerys might have been Tyrion's father. He would not spoil a revelation there by pointing out that this or that character is not the biological of this or that person. 

This revelation is supposed to be a surprise, perhaps in an even stronger sense than the Jon Snow revelation is supposed to be.

[BalerionTheCat]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion is an entirely different animal, though. Back when he was asked that question pretty much no one assumed that Tyrion might not be Tywin's son - and even if people did, back then George gave no concrete hint that Aerys might have been Tyrion's father. He would not spoil a revelation there by pointing out that this or that character is not the biological of this or that person.

That is exactly how I read it. At the time, there was no concern or care of A+J=T in GRRM. Because he didn't even though people would speculate that way. Because (IMHO) he didn't think of it himself. Now of course, with the theory, he would be more prudent.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

That is exactly how I read it. At the time, there was no concern or care of A+J=T in GRRM. Because he didn't even though people would speculate that way. Because (IMHO) he didn't think of it himself. Now of course, with the theory, he would be more prudent.

Why should he, really? If you ask very poignant questions, perhaps. But he won't give anything away. If you asked detailed questions about Aegon's parents he would talk about Rhaegar and Elia, not Illyrio and Serra (or whoever Aegon's mother in that scenario would be).

There is an official story here, and as long as this official story isn't doubted by an overwhelming majority of the readers or characters he isn't going to give it much thought in an answer.

You have to keep in mind that theories like Tyrion being Aerys' son, Aegon being Illyrio's son, etc. are only things the organized fan base talks about. People who just read the books might neither notice nor care about stuff like that. It would be very unprofessional of him to address questions of fans who figured something out any different from readers who didn't pick up on something. Especially since pretty much all his answers find their way on line.

[chrisdaw]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is good that you know the end of the series. Can you by any chance tell me where you read all that?

There is no reason to believe Tyrion will emulate Aerys, though. Aerys was a cruel and paranoid madman. Nobody wants to be like him, especially not Tyrion. That is made clear by the text, for instance when Tyrion compares Joffrey to Aerys. That isn't a compliment.

Just follow the arc, what GRRM and the text says rather than denying it. No Jon will not sacrifice a child to save the world, and yes for the refusal he will be rewarded with the realm's salvation. GRRM's thoughts on this have already been played out in Davos' words and Jon's arc has been working to that point.

Tyrion will emulate Aerys for reasons I already posted. When GRRM said he is a villain it's because he is a villain, it's as big a spoiler as saying Jon is a hero.

[Lord Varys]

35 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Just follow the arc, what GRRM and the text says rather than denying it. No Jon will not sacrifice a child to save the world, and yes for the refusal he will be rewarded with the realm's salvation. GRRM's thoughts on this have already been played out in Davos' words and Jon's arc has been working to that point.

Your lack of vision is disturbing. Those books don't include a coded manual that helps you predict the plot. Quoting a passage from the book and then interpreting it as if it was predicting actual plot lines means, well, nothing.

You are connecting things that have nothing to do with each other. Nobody is going to reap rewards for being the good guy in this series. If you don't bloody yourself other people will make you bleed and die.

35 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion will emulate Aerys for reasons I already posted. When GRRM said he is a villain it's because he is a villain, it's as big a spoiler as saying Jon is a hero.

Even if Tyrion were a villain - that doesn't mean he will emulate Aerys. Nobody wants to be like Aerys and unless Tyrion suddenly grows into a paranoid maniac he is going to be nothing like Aerys. Aerys didn't even have a dragon. Tyrion most likely will get one.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Your lack of vision is disturbing. Those books don't include a coded manual that helps you predict the plot. Quoting a passage from the book and then interpreting it as if it was predicting actual plot lines means, well, nothing.

You are connecting things that have nothing to do with each other. Nobody is going to reap rewards for being the good guy in this series. If you don't bloody yourself other people will make you bleed and die.

Even if Tyrion were a villain - that doesn't mean he will emulate Aerys. Nobody wants to be like Aerys and unless Tyrion suddenly grows into a paranoid maniac he is going to be nothing like Aerys. Aerys didn't even have a dragon. Tyrion most likely will get one.

Yes, my lack of perception is the problem.

It's a pretty clear theme made so by having been harped upon. Ned would not sacrifice a child, not Jon for his honour, not Dany to prevent a war, not Cersei's children and not his own, everything else falls by the wayside. And then he hits Jon with it, Crasters, Monster, and then sailed Stannis, Davos and Mel right to his wall so he has tickets to the Shireen BBQ. Jon will not gain personally from the refusal, but it will mean the realm's salvation.

Unconnected, yeah ok. You shouldn't need a roadmap, but there it is anyway.

Tyrion will when he's lost his dragon and his realm revert back to life is so unfair for the ugly little dwarf, and because Tywin taught him nothing better he'll choose to let them reign over ashes.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It's a pretty clear theme made so by having been harped upon. Ned would not sacrifice a child, not Jon for his honour, not Dany to prevent a war, not Cersei's children and not his own, everything else falls by the wayside. And then he hits Jon with it, Crasters, Monster, and then sailed Stannis, Davos and Mel right to his wall so he has tickets to the Shireen BBQ. Jon will not gain personally from the refusal, but it will mean the realm's salvation.

Azor Ahai killed his Nissa Nissa for a burning sword. Daenerys sacrificed her brother, her unborn child, and her sun-and-stars for her dragons.

Jon is likely going to be forced to make a similar choice. He already did when he betrayed Ygritte. His arrows didn't kill her but his decision to warn the NW certainly did. Dany didn't have it in her to kill the innocent children the Meereenese nobility delivered to her as hostages. But Jon would have to kill the hostages the wildlings gave to him if they broke the contract they made. That's what the Starks do. Ned would also have taken Theon's head had Balon rebelled again during his lifetime.

And Shireen will burn. There is no question about that. Jon is not going to prevent that.

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion will when he's lost his dragon and his realm revert back to life is so unfair for the ugly little dwarf, and because Tywin taught him nothing better he'll choose to let them reign over ashes.

So you have changed your opinion now and are saying that Tyrion will emulate Tywin? That's what I said. He is his father, never mind whose seed he may be. The man who taught Tyrion how a powerful nobleman should behave was Tywin.

Aerys and Tyrion have nothing in common. Aerys grew up as a beautiful and privileged prince, always following his desires and getting what he wanted. And unlike Tyrion, Aerys wasn't particularly intelligent or capable. Tyrion, on the other hand, doesn't suffer from delusions of grandeur or delusions, madness, and paranoia in general.

Tyrion - or any of the Targaryen descendants we are going to meet - certainly could identify with their Targaryen heritage but then they would try to emulate Rhaegar, Aegon V, Daeron II, Jaehaerys I, or Aegon the Conqueror. Nobody is going to choose Maegor, Aegon IV, or Aerys II as a role model.

And unless Tyrion suddenly becomes a completely erratic and paranoid maniac who is led around by the people around him he is going to be nothing like Aerys.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Azor Ahai killed his Nissa Nissa for a burning sword. Daenerys sacrificed her brother, her unborn child, and her sun-and-stars for her dragons.

Jon is likely going to be forced to make a similar choice. He already did when he betrayed Ygritte..

So you have changed your opinion now and are saying that Tyrion will emulate Tywin? That's what I said. He is his father, never mind whose seed he may be. The man who taught Tyrion how a powerful nobleman should behave was Tywin.

Yes Jon is going to have to make the choice, as I've been saying. No he is not going to choose to make the sacrifice. No Ygritte is not comparable, she was an enemy combatant and had the capacity to decide her actions. Of course Shireen burns, there's another false father figure for Jon to reject.

There's an escalating ladder in Jon's arc. A ladder of heartless action for increasing responsibility. First he lets Robb go to war without him and feels guilt for his death. Then he stays true to the watch and Ygritte dies. Setting aside the things he loves for duty. Becoming immune to it, unfeeling, all warmth fleeing from him in pursuit of his duty. It is building to the final conundrum, will he be willing to sacrifice his own child, or let his child be sacrificed to achieve victory. Has all warmth fled from him completely, is he pure ice. The answer will of course be no.

Don't know what you're prattling on about with Tywin, it will be just as I said. In the last when Aerys lost everything he gave an inhumane order to destroy it all so that no-one else could have it. The damage be damned. Same as the other gold dragon rider. And Tyrion will do likewise. Had he been taught something better by Tywin like Jon was Ned he'd be able to resist the call to the Targaryen father's nature.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes Jon is going to have to make the choice, as I've been saying. No he is not going to choose to make the sacrifice. No Ygritte is not comparable, she was an enemy combatant and had the capacity to decide her actions. Of course Shireen burns, there's another false father figure for Jon to reject.

Ygritte was Jon's family, the woman he loved. Had he not betrayed but instead helped her to attack Castle Black she would have lived

Jon might approve of Stannis' decision to burn Shireen. How do you know that he won't? We don't know how bad the situation will be when this is done.

5 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

There's an escalating ladder in Jon's arc. A ladder of heartless action for increasing responsibility. First he lets Robb go to war without him and feels guilt for his death. Then he stays true to the watch and Ygritte dies. Setting aside the things he loves for duty. Becoming immune to it, unfeeling, all warmth fleeing from him in pursuit of his duty. It is building to the final conundrum, will he be willing to sacrifice his own child, or let his child be sacrificed to achieve victory. Has all warmth fled from him completely, is he pure ice. The answer will of course be no.

Jon doesn't have a child to sacrifice. And no, not every (hypothetical) father in this series has to face the decision to sacrifice his child or not. That is not the topic of this series. 

And Jon already broke and gave in to 'love' over 'duty' when he decided to risk a conflict and go to war with the Boltons over 'Arya'. He was gutted for that. It is not all that likely that he will give in to sentimentalism after he returns from the dead. This kind of weakness got him killed in the first place.

The lesson learned from that is to be more ruthless and more controlling when dealing with (potential) enemies, subordinate, and people in general. Especially once he finally grasps the threat the Others pose for all humanity. The lives of child - or hundreds and thousands of other children and people in general - is nothing against the fate of humanity in general.

If Jon has to kill 90% of the human population of Martinworld to defeat the Others he should do it. And he sure as hell should allow as many people to die if that would guarantee a victory over them. Morality is irrelevant if you face a supernatural enemy who intends to kill everyone.

5 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Don't know what you're prattling on about with Tywin, it will be just as I said. In the last when Aerys lost everything he gave an inhumane order to destroy it all so that no-one else could have it. The damage be damned. Same as the other gold dragon rider. And Tyrion will do likewise. Had he been taught something better by Tywin like Jon was Ned he'd be able to resist the call to the Targaryen father's nature.

Tyrion doesn't have anything he would be able to destroy in the face of certain defeat. And how do you know he'll ever get that. He is pretty unlikely to ever wear a crown or ever face certain defeat. He is George's favorite and might still end up on the winning side in the end. He has the best chances to survive the series than any other POV despite the fact that he did atrocious things. Just as Arya is most likely not going to be killed for the crimes she committed.

[chrisdaw]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte was Jon's family, the woman he loved. Had he not betrayed but instead helped her to attack Castle Black she would have lived

And it's not the same as sacrificing a child for the reasons I stated.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon might approve of Stannis' decision to burn Shireen. How do you know that he won't?

I am saying he won't based upon his character arc and the likely timing. But it's there to make him consider things. Where duty and responsibility as a father and to the realm start and end.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon doesn't have a child to sacrifice.

Really? Well I guess that's that then.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And no, not every (hypothetical) father in this series has to face the decision to sacrifice his child or not. That is not the topic of this series.

Not every father will have to decide to sacrifice his child or not? Ok , glad you sorted that out. It will broadly be the crux of the series though, sacrificing one child vs the survival of the realm is how GRRM is choosing to manifest it, the question of does the end justify the means, particularly in rule.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And Jon already broke and gave in to 'love' over 'duty' when he decided to risk a conflict and go to war with the Boltons over 'Arya'. He was gutted for that. It is not all that likely that he will give in to sentimentalism after he returns from the dead. This kind of weakness got him killed in the first place.

Yes, exactly the sort of thing that would turn a character to ice, that would make them consider giving a living child to the flames, that would turn them into what they'd considered a monster. The sort of stuff stories are made of.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Jon has to kill 90% of the human population of Martinworld to defeat the Others he should do it. And he sure as hell should allow as many people to die if that would guarantee a victory over them. Morality is irrelevant if you face a supernatural enemy who intends to kill everyone.

Then don't tell me about it, I suggest you start writing letters to GRRM. Or to Jon.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

YTyrion doesn't have anything he would be able to destroy in the face of certain defeat.

Like Jon doesn't have a child, Tyrion doesn't have a lot of things right now. Including a dragon.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

And it's not the same as sacrificing a child for the reasons I stated.

Ned also was never in a position to sacrifice a child. But the parallel between Ned's choice between Sansa's happiness and the truth and his loyalty to his dead friend and king and Jon-Ygritte certainly is there.

No character but Stannis is likely to actually sacrifice a child.

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

I am saying he won't based upon his character arc and the likely timing. But it's there to make him consider things. Where duty and responsibility as a father and to the realm start and end.

You don't know what's going to happen there. Death is very likely to change his character. Catelyn and Beric changed a lot. The idea that Jon is going to have a coherent arc after his death is not very likely. And nothing in his arc seems to be about children or the Realm. Jon isn't a king.

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Really? Well I guess that's that then.

Correct. Jon also doesn't have any grandchildren, by the way.

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Not every father will have to decide to sacrifice his child or not? Ok , glad you sorted that out. It will broadly be the crux of the series though, sacrificing one child vs the survival of the realm is how GRRM is choosing to manifest it, the question of does the end justify the means, particularly in rule.

That isn't the main theme of the series at all. Again, the only father who runs around with the intention of sacrificing children is Stannis (both his own daughter and his own nephew). Or where do you see this theme as being relevant in relation to other characters?

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes, exactly the sort of thing that would turn a character to ice, that would make them consider giving a living child to the flames, that would turn them into what they'd considered a monster. The sort of stuff stories are made of.

Actually, no. You actually need a good reason to burn an innocent child alive. And as of yet such reasons have not been introduced into the story. Stannis is likely to burn Shireen but we don't know the context of that - why is he going to think this is a good idea? Jon only caring about the mission doesn't mean he has to entertain such a stupid notion. It is much more likely that he is going to sentence hundreds or thousands to death simply by refusing to feed these people. The women, children, and old people among the wildlings and the Northmen are of no use in the battles against the Others and wights - but the men who can fight need whatever food they have left to keep their strength. Else there is no hope at all.

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Then don't tell me about it, I suggest you start writing letters to GRRM. Or to Jon.

They both know that already.

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Like Jon doesn't have a child, Tyrion doesn't have a lot of things right now. Including a dragon.

Perhaps he doesn't get a dragon. I didn't say he has to. I don't make proclamations how the story is going to go. But the probability that Tyrion ends up claiming a dragon in the near future is much higher than the idea that Jon (who is dead right now) will ever father a living child in this series. The books usually cover only a few months, and TWoW is likely to cover even less time than AFfC/ADwD, making it exceedingly unlikely that Jon will have the time to see the birth of a child.

Especially not if we go with only two more books.

[chrisdaw]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Jon is going to have a coherent arc after his death is not very likely.

And the error is mine for having replied to you.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

And the error is mine for having replied to you.

Well, then why did you continue that error?

[Newstar]

The biggest problem with A+J=T is...what's the point? It would only matter from a plot perspective if 1) Tyrion is going to be a dragonrider and 2) Targ blood is needed to ride a dragon. Even assuming that Tyrion is going to ride a dragon, GRRM's comments about the heads of the dragon not needing to be Targs and the fact that Nettles seems to have tamed Sheepstealer without the benefit of Targ blood throw doubt on the idea that Targ blood is needed.

So if Tyrion can be a full-blooded Lannister and still ride a dragon and be one of the heads of the dragon and all that good stuff, there's no point to revealing A+J=T. Nor is there any chance that Tyrion would be anything other than a Targ bastard, unlike, say, Jon, who could very well be legitimate in the event that it turns out that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. What would be the point?

I'm also coming up short on how exactly anyone is supposed to learn the truth about Tyrion assuming he is a Targ bastard, other than, say, Bran. Even Jon has Howland Reed running around. There has been some speculation that Tyrion will accidentally reveal his Targ heritage when he successfully rides a dragon, but given that dragonriding doesn't seem to require Targ blood given Nettles' example, that seems unlikely to prove anything one way or another.

[Castellan]

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

The biggest problem with A+J=T is...what's the point? It would only matter from a plot perspective if 1) Tyrion is going to be a dragonrider and 2) Targ blood is needed to ride a dragon. Even assuming that Tyrion is going to ride a dragon, GRRM's comments about the heads of the dragon not needing to be Targs and the fact that Nettles seems to have tamed Sheepstealer without the benefit of Targ blood throw doubt on the idea that Targ blood is needed.

So if Tyrion can be a full-blooded Lannister and still ride a dragon and be one of the heads of the dragon and all that good stuff, there's no point to revealing A+J=T. Nor is there any chance that Tyrion would be anything other than a Targ bastard, unlike, say, Jon, who could very well be legitimate in the event that it turns out that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. What would be the point?

I'm also coming up short on how exactly anyone is supposed to learn the truth about Tyrion assuming he is a Targ bastard, other than, say, Bran. Even Jon has Howland Reed running around. There has been some speculation that Tyrion will accidentally reveal his Targ heritage when he successfully rides a dragon, but given that dragonriding doesn't seem to require Targ blood given Nettles' example, that seems unlikely to prove anything one way or another.

All true, and I said similar things in my post above about Tyrion being a chimera. I think it'll be one of possibly several things that are never revealed overtly within the books but are just floating around in the books for readers to catch on to. Without websites like this many readers would never notice them. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

The biggest problem with A+J=T is...what's the point? It would only matter from a plot perspective if 1) Tyrion is going to be a dragonrider and 2) Targ blood is needed to ride a dragon. Even assuming that Tyrion is going to ride a dragon, GRRM's comments about the heads of the dragon not needing to be Targs and the fact that Nettles seems to have tamed Sheepstealer without the benefit of Targ blood throw doubt on the idea that Targ blood is needed.

There is actually no reason to assume that Nettles had no Targaryen blood. She, Hugh, and Ulf all seem to have been Dragonstonians by birth. And the chances are pretty high that such people had (and still have) more than a drop of Targaryen or Valyrian blood. There is no real difference between Addam of Hull, Hugh, Ulf, or Nettles in that whole dragonmounting thing.

George's comment about the dragon heads specified that the second head of the dragon apparently has to be a Targaryen. Only the third does not necessarily have to be a Targaryen. Now, considering that Tyrion is likely going to be the second head of the dragon in the sense that he is likely going to become the second dragonrider in the series (and the first dragon head in the sense that he is older than both Daenerys and Jon) whoever the third head is going to be might not be a Targaryen, but the the first and second one (and thus Tyrion) most likely are.

But quite honestly, George has kept the door open for all dragon heads being Targaryen descendants. Only Daenerys is a true Targaryen. Jon Snow may still be a bastard, and Tyrion most definitely would be a Hill, not a Targaryen. And neither Jon nor Tyrion might ever call themselves 'Targaryen' despite the fact that they may get the right to bear that name.

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

So if Tyrion can be a full-blooded Lannister and still ride a dragon and be one of the heads of the dragon and all that good stuff, there's no point to revealing A+J=T. Nor is there any chance that Tyrion would be anything other than a Targ bastard, unlike, say, Jon, who could very well be legitimate in the event that it turns out that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. What would be the point?

The point would be that Jon and Tyrion are foils for each other. Tyrion is a bastard disguised as a powerful nobleman and Jon is a prince disguised as a bastard.

And nobody said ever anything about a full-blooded Lannister being able to to ride a dragon. What little we know about dragonriders as of yet makes it exceedingly unlikely that a Lannister dwarf could become a dragonrider. Tyrion has no magical abilities and very weak and short legs. He is not likely going to be able to evade a dragon attack if he tries to mount against its will. Nor is going to have the confidence to try to mount a dragon if he does not have any reason to believe he might be able to succeed. Realizing or learning that he has Targaryen blood might help him with that. Because Tyrion has gone on record that he believes Targaryen blood helps you to get along with dragons. That's why he assumes that Brown Ben was liked by Dany's dragons. He knows he is a descendant of Lord Viserys Plumm.

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

I'm also coming up short on how exactly anyone is supposed to learn the truth about Tyrion assuming he is a Targ bastard, other than, say, Bran. Even Jon has Howland Reed running around. There has been some speculation that Tyrion will accidentally reveal his Targ heritage when he successfully rides a dragon, but given that dragonriding doesn't seem to require Targ blood given Nettles' example, that seems unlikely to prove anything one way or another.

Barristan Selmy might know. Not just because he may have witnessed Aerys and Joanna having sex in 272 AC but also because he may have overheard Aerys and other people - Tywin, Joanna, Varys, etc. - talking about that.

Selmy gives us the impression there is more he could tell Dany about Aerys and Joanna but he is cut off by Hizdahr. What might that be?

And it is odd and interesting that Tyrion failed to present himself to Dany in the arena before she disappeared. What was the point of that plot? George could have united Tyrion and Dany for a short moment only to have her disappear shortly thereafter. But perhaps the point was that Selmy meeting Tyrion would have triggered a reaction. Neither of those characters ever thinks about his interactions with the other in his chapters.

Dany's people also have little reason to trust an ugly dwarf. Selmy should be especially wary of the son of Lord Tywin, and the claims/news that he murdered Joffrey and Tywin is not going to make him appear trustworthy in his eyes. But if Selmy knows Tyrion is Dany's half-brother he will feel honor-bound to not kill him but instead keep him around until he can introduce him to Daenerys.

Tyrion just becoming a dragonrider shouldn't help him all that much. It might give him power and prestige but it is not going to make people trust him. But the revelation about his ancestry might help with that. It should also help him figure out what he wants to do. Right now he is most likely only trying to stay alive and hoping he can connect with Dany to use her as his pawn for his own ends (as he did with Aegon). But if he realizes that she is his half-sister this should change his priorities.

[The Mother of The Others]

 I let the personalities of the lannisters dictate to me who the parents were for each.  

 To me cercei has the soul of a targ: she pushes to rule no matter what's required, a true aegon the conqueror descendent.  She pressed targ style family love upon her sibling, hungering to imitate the ruling family soooo much?  Or acting that way, immitating what a normal person wouldn't, because she IS one of them!    What seals the deal for me is her targ madness culminating in the urge to immolate.

Jaime is a spiritual brother to Rheagar.   Bro.... Brah?    Excellence tarnished in both by Similarly daring to do the unpopular thing, going wherever his inner compass leads.... slumming with cercei deadened his sharpness , but now that he's shed that wallowing in shame era i view him as Rheagar the sequel.   Parentage of twins: targ.

Tyrion behaves like Tywin the Sequel because he is the true lannister son as the astute Jenna surmised.   He'll lack the targ advantage with mastering dragons by virtue of targ dna, but he'll win out anyway, buying his way into a dragon's good graces the lannister way, by finding or remembering dragon lore & magic until he knows what will purchase a dragon's friendship.   

Tywin was in a hell of a bind.   He knew or suspected the twins weren't his, knew that tyrion was.   But couldn't say anything without undoing his house.   Then jaime went to serve the house tywin silently raged against, denying the lannister seat to complete the sense of betrayal tywin felt.  The rest was misplaced rage against tyrion, the person tywin was never going to hand over the reins to, so unmanly a thing to follow after the great man..... never!   He died still having no answer for this bind.  But you can start to see why the old man was content to let the realm burn.

[Lady bonehead]

I believe if anyone whether a Lannister or some random back bencher manages to ride one of Dany's spare dragons, they and everyone else is going to assume they have Targ blood somewhere, at which point some wet-nurse can come forward and reveal the  truth that she has suppressed all these years.  My personal crackpot is that Aerys fathered the twins, and Jaime suspects because Aerys something to him when he is in the KG, which would help explain the weird dreams as well as his extreme reluctance to inherit Casterly Rock.

[Newstar]

4 hours ago, Castellan said:

All true, and I said similar things in my post above about Tyrion being a chimera. I think it'll be one of possibly several things that are never revealed overtly within the books but are just floating around in the books for readers to catch on to. Without websites like this many readers would never notice them. 

We will never know for sure. At best GRRM will hold out A+J=T ambiguity as a tantalizing but unresolved possibility for the reader (just as GRRM refused to rule out A+J=T in TWOIAF despite ample opportunity), but it will be just that: an Easter egg mystery for readers.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is actually no reason to assume that Nettles had no Targaryen blood.

Why assume that she did? She just happened to live on the island where dragonseeds (as well as many non-dragonseeds) lived, and she tamed Sheepstealer through cleverness, much as Tyrion would. It is entirely possible that the supposed requirement for Targ blood to ride dragons is just Targ propaganda, since Nettles succeeded without any such established parentage.

 

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But quite honestly, George has kept the door open for all dragon heads being Targaryen descendants.

He did, but if GRRM meant when he said that the third head not necessarily be a Targ rather that the third head must have Targ blood, that seems deliberately misleading fans, which is not something GRRM normally does. 

 

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And nobody said ever anything about a full-blooded Lannister being able to to ride a dragon. What little we know about dragonriders as of yet makes it exceedingly unlikely that a Lannister dwarf could become a dragonrider.

We don't know that Targ blood is required to ride dragons. Nettles' example suggests that it isn't.

And even if Targ blood is needed for riding dragons, then that doesn't make a Targ of Tyrion unless you assume that Tyrion will ride a dragon, and that's by no means a given.

 

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Barristan Selmy might know. Not just because he may have witnessed Aerys and Joanna having sex in 272 AC but also because he may have overheard Aerys and other people - Tywin, Joanna, Varys, etc. - talking about that.

That doesn't establish parentage, though. Joanna was married to Tywin at the time of Tyrion's conception. Unless Barristan has unimpeachable knowledge of Joanna having sex with Aerys and not Tywin nine months ahead of Tyrion's birth, which is extremely unlikely, all he can know is Aerys and Joanna maybe having an affair after the marriage, which certainly wouldn't establish parentage.

 

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And it is odd and interesting that Tyrion failed to present himself to Dany in the arena before she disappeared. What was the point of that plot? 

Lots of reasons. Building suspense for when they actually do meet by presenting a missed opportunity.

 

2 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

 I let the personalities of the lannisters dictate to me who the parents were for each.   To me cercei has the soul of a targ: she pushes to rule no matter what's required (...)

From what we know of the Targs, and at this point, we know a great deal, there is no "soul of a Targ" or Targ personality. They're a varied bunch.

[chrisdaw]

He goes out of his way to provide the possibility that the dragon riders from Dragonstone have Targ blood. He drops Aerys and Joanna before Tyrion hops on Viserion. If Targ blood is required to ride a dragon will remain a question after Tyrion hops on Viserion precisely because he has made Aerys/Joanna a thing. How is it not clear it is this way by deliberate design?