My thoughts on the Tyrion Targaryen Theory

[Universal Sword Donor]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously Joanna was an exception. After all, he had a thing for her for a very long time, and that's confirmed. Aerys certainly can discard a mistress and rekindle his interest in her some time later. That is not mutually exclusive.

You obviously don't know your stuff. The source for Joanna being Aerys' paramour is the same sidebar in TWoIaF that also mentions that Aerys deflowered Joanna in the night of his father's coronation. 

Aerys behavior towards Joanna can easily enough be explained with him being pissed that their affair ended and was not rekindled later on. And if the king insults you in front of the court this is certainly bad form. But he is still the king. If he told Joanna that he intended to apologize to her in his apartments she would have come. She would have had no other choice. And the man could be very charming and generous if he wanted to. And we don't know whether Joanna actually loved Tywin. We only know that Tywin was besotted with Joanna. But that doesn't mean she returned those feelings in the same degree.

But in any case, back when Joanna allegedly enjoyed her reign as his paramour Aerys certainly wouldn't have publicly humiliated her.

I clearly don't know my stuff. Clearly. I am reading things in the book and taking them with a grain of salt.

You are blatantly lying, taking things out of context, and injecting your own fanciful imagination whenever and wherever you deem necessary. Surely Rhaella would have sent Joanna away earlier for the alleged infidelity if any of that actually happened. She and Aerys had been married for years and had chidlren already. But no.

Keep it up. Tywin is a voyeuristic cuckold who likes to film in the corner.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

I clearly don't know my stuff. Clearly. I am reading things in the book and taking them with a grain of salt.

You claimed there is no textual evidence. This is textual evidence:

Quote

The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father’s coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted.

Pycelle's argument Yandel uses to dismiss those rumors are, as we well know, themselves wrong.

Quote

As Pycelle insists in his letters, Tywin Lannister would scarce have taken his cousin to wife if that had been true, “for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting upon another man’s leavings.”

Tywin did feast on his own son's leaving, making it very clear that this claim of Pycelle's is worth essentially nothing. If you believe this you can also believe ravens couldn't talk in the past or magic in general doesn't work. Yandel gives us evidence for that, too.

Perhaps the rumor is wrong. But Yandel doesn't give us credible evidence to dismiss it. Even Pycelle can (and most likely is) right on occasion. But not when he is assessing Tywin Lannister's character here.

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

Keep it up.

I will.

[Guilherme Rubira]

14 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

I'm 100 percent sure that Tywin would have had Tyrion killed if he had any inkling that he was not his son

I'm with you.

Tywin is ruthless, Joanna was the only one capable of melting his heart.
Her beeing gone, dying while giving birth to a child that he suspects it Aerys, he would kill the infant for sure. Maybe cover it up as a miscarriage.

Tyrion is awesome for his personality, he does not need to be a Targaryen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You claimed there is no textual evidence. This is textual evidence:

Pycelle's argument Yandel uses to dismiss those rumors are, as we well know, themselves wrong.

Tywin did feast on his own son's leaving, making it very clear that this claim of Pycelle's is worth essentially nothing. If you believe this you can also believe ravens couldn't talk in the past or magic in general doesn't work. Yandel gives us evidence for that, too.

Perhaps the rumor is wrong. But Yandel doesn't give us credible evidence to dismiss it. Even Pycelle can (and most likely is) right on occasion. But not when he is assessing Tywin Lannister's character here.

I will.

I was unaware Tywin treated whores and his lady wife the same. That is news to literally everyone. I am not sure he loved Shae. If you have textual evidence of that, then by all means please share.

Now if we look at your assertion that Pycelle's claims are worthless, we can safely discount a lot from the book:

• “Only Lady Joanna truly knows the man beneath the armor,” Grand Maester Pycelle wrote the Citadel, “and all his smiles belong to her and her alone. I do avow that I have even observed her make him laugh, not once, but upon three separate occasions!”

  • Clearly Tywin never smiled nor did he laugh. Joanna did not know the man beneath the armor

• “Lord Tywin looms as large as Casterly Rock,” wrote Grand Maester Pycelle, “and no king has ever had so diligent or capable a Hand.”

  • Tywin does not loom as large as CR, literally or figuratively. If Tywin was the best hand in the history of the IT is up for debate -- I'd say Barth -- but the spirit here is clearly wrong. Tywin was probably the worst. No definitely the worst. 

• “Yet Grand Maester Pycelle tells us that when Aerys II announced Ser Jaime’s appointment from the Iron Throne, his lordship went to one knee and thanked the king for the great honor shown to his house.”

  • Pycelle probably omitted that Tywin punched Aerys and then started peeing on him. Small details man.

• “The king had seized upon the notion of bringing Ser Jaime into his Kingsguard as a way of humbling his old friend, Grand Maester Pycelle tells us.”
  • Aerys actually inducted Jaime to bring honor and glory onto House Lannister, as we all know now.

• “With her death, Grand Maester Pycelle observes, the joy went out of Tywin Lannister, yet still he persisted in his duty.”

  • This is probably the most egregious oversight by Yandel. Tywin was clearly the life of the party at court and well loved by everyone in KL. He still is to this day. If anything his charismatic ways and active social life got in the way of being hand. It's oft been muttered he shirked his duties to live for weeks at a time in brothels and taverns

I am glad we got those well needed edits of Pycelle's into the open. It just makes so much sense to apply a 30+ year old quote to a completely dissimilar situation.

 

[Tom Cruise]

I find A+J=T to be way more believable (purely based off direct text) than R+L=J.  And I am 100% behind R+L=J.  

 

To me it plays into the much more general theme of the books.  "Power resides where people believe it resides."  Ok, that quote is a bit off in this case, but more specifically towards A+J=T it references how people believe what they believe.  The 'laws' of the land are often lies.  This theme is so constantly present I don't even remember reading a thread on it.... yet?  GRRM is tapping into many 'human' elements in ASOIAF.  The exact same themes you see reading real history.  Was Octavian really the son of Julius?  Nope.  Was Genghis Khans eldest son really fathered by another person?  Probably...  At the end of the day people will believe what they want, sometimes even in the face of direct contradiction.  Having a problem with Tyrion not being the true born son of Tywin in no way lessens their relationship.  In fact, it makes it much more complex and interesting.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I was unaware Tywin treated whores and his lady wife the same. That is news to literally everyone. I am not sure he loved Shae. If you have textual evidence of that, then by all means please share.

'Feasting on another man's leavings' is open to interpretation. It doesn't refer to weddings and marriages, it refers to a man fucking a woman that had been fucked by another man before. The fact that Tywin fucked a woman that publicly ridiculed and humiliated Tyrion Lannister - and thus House Lannister - who had previously entertained her as his whore-mistress certainly shows he isn't as proud a man as Pycelle thought he was. And Shae qualifies as much as Tyrion's leavings as Joanna qualifies as Aerys' leavings.

2 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Now if we look at your assertion that Pycelle's claims are worthless, we can safely discount a lot from the book.

Can you read? I did not say Pycelle's claims are worthless. I specifically said his assessment of Tywin's character is clearly wrong. We, the readers, know that it is, and thus we also know that this is a worthless argument.

[Cas Stark]

Shae was as prostitute, I'm not sure that counts in the same way your wife having lost her virginity to the king would count.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Shae was as prostitute, I'm not sure that counts in the same way your wife having lost her virginity to the king would count.

See above. Shae qualifies as Tyrion's leavings. And Tywin fucked her still, never mind that she was a lowborn whore, the former mistress of his dwarf son, and the woman who publicly ridiculed and humiliated House Lannister.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

'Feasting on another man's leavings' is open to interpretation. It doesn't refer to weddings and marriages, it refers to a man fucking a woman that had been fucked by another man before. The fact that Tywin fucked a woman that publicly ridiculed and humiliated Tyrion Lannister - and thus House Lannister - who had previously entertained her as his whore-mistress certainly shows he isn't as proud a man as Pycelle thought he was. And Shae qualifies as much as Tyrion's leavings as Joanna qualifies as Aerys' leavings.

Can you read? I did not say Pycelle's claims are worthless. I specifically said his assessment of Tywin's character is clearly wrong. We, the readers, know that it is, and thus we also know that this is a worthless argument.

I can read. Look at those quotes. Who and what do they involve? Tywin's character and personality? You don't say!

Feasting on another man's leavings is open to interpretation, but it's even more telling that you apply a 30+ year old quote about a man and his fiancee to an elderly widower and a prostitute. It makes about as much sense as taking Ned's description of Robert in his early 20s and applying it to Robert in 298 AC, then asking "What? He's a maiden's fantasy!! HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE IT?"

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

See above. Shae qualifies as Tyrion's leavings. And Tywin fucked her still, never mind that she was a lowborn whore, the former mistress of his dwarf son, and the woman who publicly ridiculed and humiliated House Lannister.

And that's why Shae died with a wedding ring on her finger and her last name as Lannister

[Guilherme Rubira]

To be honest, I think this theory is even disrespectful with the great Tywin character.
He's portrayted as extremely proud and capable since the beginning.
So:

1) He would know if Aerys had sex with Joanna;

2) He would not marry or stay married if there was a rape or if she gave it to him willingly;

3) He would murder the child and peharps even Joanna if he saw a betrayal, anyone who shames house Lannister is to be held accountable. Ppl accept the possibility of Jamie killing Cersei (woman he loves for sure) but refuse to believe Tywin would kill Aery's bastard;

4) There would be war or at least an immediate tension between Lannisters x Targs.

Those are my thoughts, Pycelle's words or Tyrion's different eye collors are not enough for me.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 minutes ago, Guilherme Rubira said:

To be honest, I think this theory is even disrespectful with the great Tywin character.
He's portrayted as extremely proud and capable since the beginning.
So:

1) He would know if Aerys had sex with Joanna;

2) He would not marry or stay married if there was a rape or if she gave it to him willingly;

3) He would murder the child and peharps even Joanna if he saw a betrayal, anyone who shames house Lannister is to be held accountable. Ppl accept the possibility of Jamie killing Cersei (woman he loves for sure) but refuse to believe Tywin would kill Aery's bastard;

4) There would be war or at least an immediate tension between Lannisters x Targs.

Those are my thoughts, Pycelle's words or Tyrion's different eye collors are not enough for me.

Taking the opposite of Pycelle's word mind you, not his words. Because it makes so much sense to discard that particular line of thought but then accept the other half dozen quotes about Tywin and Tywin with Joanna in the book. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I can read. Look at those quotes. Who and what do they involve? Tywin's character and personality? You don't say!

Feasting on another man's leavings is open to interpretation, but it's even more telling that you apply a 30+ year old quote about a man and his fiancee to an elderly widower and a prostitute. It makes about as much sense as taking Ned's description of Robert in his early 20s and applying it to Robert in 298 AC, then asking "What? He's a maiden's fantasy!! HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE IT?"

Pycelle had his man crush on Tywin in 265 AC just as much as he did in 300 AC. And nobody ever said the letters Yandel cited where all that old. He could have written letters containing anecdotes of Tywin and Aerys in 270, 280, or 290 AC.

Pycelle didn't change his opinion on Tywin. And thus his assessment of his character is worthless because we know Tywin never was the man Pycelle believed he was.

2 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And that's why Shae died with a wedding ring on her finger and her last name as Lannister

Shae died wearing the Chain of the Hand. That indicates that Tywin had her play a very special role in bed for him. Perhaps the role of a dominant Joanna. With Tyrion Shae playfully wore the chain to get him going, but Shae would only have gotten the chain from Tywin if he wanted her to wear it. She makes it clear that she is afraid of this weirdo when Tyrion wakes her.

3 minutes ago, Guilherme Rubira said:

To be honest, I think this theory is even disrespectful with the great Tywin character.
He's portrayted as extremely proud and capable since the beginning.

See above. If Tywin was truly how he wanted to be perceived by the public Shae would never have worn the Chain of the Hand. In fact, he would have never fucked Shae in the first place.

[Guilherme Rubira]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

See above. If Tywin was truly how he wanted to be perceived by the public Shae would never have worn the Chain of the Hand. In fact, he would have never fucked Shae in the first place.

I see your point, but he did bone Shae in closed doors.
Appearances do matter to him, a lot.

[Cas Stark]

I don't think he would have fallen in love with a woman who was Aerys prior mistress.  But that's me.  Perhaps the author wants to ruin Tywin's character completely along with ruining the Tywin/Tyrion dynamic by making Tyrion a Targ.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Pycelle had his man crush on Tywin in 265 AC just as much as he did in 300 AC. And nobody ever said the letters Yandel cited where all that old. He could have written letters containing anecdotes of Tywin and Aerys in 270, 280, or 290 AC.

Pycelle didn't change his opinion on Tywin. And thus his assessment of his character is worthless because we know Tywin never was the man Pycelle believed he was.

Shae died wearing the Chain of the Hand. That indicates that Tywin had her play a very special role in bed for him. Perhaps the role of a dominant Joanna. With Tyrion Shae playfully wore the chain to get him going, but Shae would only have gotten the chain from Tywin if he wanted her to wear it. She makes it clear that she is afraid of this weirdo when Tyrion wakes her.

See above. If Tywin was truly how he wanted to be perceived by the public Shae would never have worn the Chain of the Hand. In fact, he would have never fucked Shae in the first place.

His man crush on Tywin never changed. I won't argue that. Your assessment of Pycelle's view of Tywin is completely blown out of the water by POV quotes and quotes we get from people who knew Tywin AND Joanna.

Sleeping with Shae is a bit hypocritical but there is nothing out of that behavior that drives your assertion. It's perfectly acceptable for nobles to sleep with prostitutes and it's also perfectly acceptable to hide it. Tywin can still grieve for his wife and want to have sex. It's not a zero sum game. He clearly doesn't care about what happens behind the scenes as long as the perception remains what he wants (see Tyrion and Tysha). How many people know about the gang rape?

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Guilherme Rubira said:

I see your point, but he did bone Shae in closed doors.
Appearances do matter to him, a lot.

Sure, but still - why would he fuck a woman who did what Shae did to Tyrion? He is the Lord of Casterly Rock and the Hand of the King. He can have any woman he wants. Why did he take Shae of all people?

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think he would have fallen in love with a woman who was Aerys prior mistress.  But that's me.  Perhaps the author wants to ruin Tywin's character completely along with ruining the Tywin/Tyrion dynamic by making Tyrion a Targ.  

He most likely fell in love with her long before Joanna even met Aerys. She was his first cousin and they grew up at Casterly Rock.

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

His man crush on Tywin never changed. I won't argue that. Your assessment of Pycelle's view of Tywin is completely blown out of the water by POV quotes and quotes we get from people who knew Tywin AND Joanna.

I'm not talking about Pycelle or Tywin in general, I'm talking about the specifics of the sidebar we are confronted here. But in general - Tywin's entire public persona is a facade. It is not his true self. He did smile, he did laugh, and he did fuck whores.

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Sleeping with Shae is a bit hypocritical but there is nothing out of that behavior that drives your assertion. It's perfectly acceptable for nobles to sleep with prostitutes and it's also perfectly acceptable to hide it.

That isn't my point. The point is about the specific prostitute, Shae, and the manner of sex game they played. If Shae wearing the Chain of the Hand does indeed imply that they played a D/s game, then things are even more twisted as we thought. Why on earth would Tywin play such a sex game with the former mistress of Tyrion?

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tywin can still grieve for his wife and want to have sex. It's not a zero sum game. He clearly doesn't care about what happens behind the scenes as long as the perception remains what he wants (see Tyrion and Tysha). How many people know about the gang rape?

Sure, he can. Tywin could even remarry or entertain a paramour like his father did. But that isn't the point. The point is that he fucked Shae at a very odd time in apparently a rather peculiar manner.

George will address this again, in the future. And the whole Tywin-Aerys-Joanna-Tyrion thing could help explain that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but still - why would he fuck a woman who did what Shae did to Tyrion? He is the Lord of Casterly Rock and the Hand of the King. He can have any woman he wants. Why did he take Shae of all people?

He most likely fell in love with her long before Joanna even met Aerys. She was his first cousin and they grew up at Casterly Rock.

I'm not talking about Pycelle or Tywin in general, I'm talking about the specifics of the sidebar we are confronted here. But in general - Tywin's entire public persona is a facade. It is not his true self. He did smile, he did laugh, and he did fuck whores.

You're not talking about those men in general, but we get quotes like this: 

Pycelle didn't change his opinion on Tywin. And thus his assessment of his character is worthless because we know Tywin never was the man Pycelle believed he was.

Sure. Either Pycelle is a trustworthy resource on Tywin and his family or not. If he's not, then you're going against canon text from the mouth of his sister, brother, daughter, and sons. And your paper thin justification doesn't hold up given the enormity in difference of circumstances and situation. You really really really want that sidebar to be demonstrably false but don't have anything to back it up. So you take the exact opposite of a generally reliable Lannister fanboi/toadie says in a contemporary letter on the basis of a single, old man's actions with a hooker.

I might start address you as Dr. Richard Reed or Mr. Fantastic, as that is an incredible stretch by any means.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Perhaps Tywin chose Shae because he knew Tyrion was somewhat an expert on whores and figured Shae would have to be really good if Tyrion chose her as his only mistress.  

[purple-eyes]

I personally think Joanna wilingly became Aerys' open mistress in the begining.