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Why does Littlefinger kiss Sansa after she builds a Snow Castle? It’s not for the reason most people think...


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In my analyzation of the scene, the reason that Littlefinger kissed her is because for once Sansa saw through his manipulation. She confronted him and demanded to know why he lied when he promised to take her home to Winterfell but instead led her to the Fingers and then the Eyrie. Sansa refused to take his words at face value and couldn't be swayed. So Littlefinger quickly found another way to regain control and change the topic. He kisses her.

 

And this calculated move allowed him to achieve two things. 1) He effectively managed to distract Sansa from focusing on the lie that he told her. 2) He stroked the rage in Aunt Lysa who he knew was watching. Who he knew was crazed. Who he knew disliked Sansa and who he knew would use the kiss as an opportunity to lash out at Sansa; giving Littlefinger the excuse that he needed to eliminate her without Sansa hating him for killing her family member.

 

After his calculating and manipulative kiss, Littlefinger further tried to manipulate Sansa by spinning her a story about kissing her because she looked so beautiful standing in the snow. Trying to appeal to the little girl who grew up with a head full of romantic stories and songs.

 

Littlefinger is a class A manipulator and people tend to forget that and take his actions and words at face value.

 

Littlefinger also sets out to worsen the tension between Sansa and Sweetrobin. He encourages Sansa's anger at her cousin for ruining her snow replica of Winterfell. “His lordship was destroying the castle,” he tells her, sending her the message that he approves of her anger towards her 8 year old cousin and allowing her to dwell on it. When Sansa in a rage mounts Sweetrobin's toy's head onto a stick as if to resemble a bloody head on a spike, Littlefinger laughs his encouragement at this display of resentment towards Sweetrobin and his property.

 

Littlefinger actively seeks out to destroy any closeness between Sansa and her Vale relatives. He continues to build the tension between Sansa and her aunt/cousin until he finally is able to eliminate Lysa. The next step is to eliminate Sweetrobin. Littlefinger has helped destroy any love that Sansa could have felt for her cousin to the point that she is indifferent to Sweetrobin being gradually poisoned with Sweetsleep. Sansa even encourages the maester to give Robin more even though the maester warns her of the danger of doing so. To which Sansa thinks: Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns. That is what Littlefinger is turning her into. A Sansa that does not care about the poisoning of an innocent child. And that is not good at all.

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I don't think he knew that Lysa was watching, that has always sounded like nonsense. He had a moment of weakness and it almost cost him dearly. He wanted Lysa alive for the moment since she helped give him legitimacy. Luckily Baelish thinks fast on his feet and Marillion is the perfect patsy.

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All great points except for the subtlety of two major truths that you've missed:

1.  Sansa's developing 'agency'...Boy, is she turning into 'a major player' of note, thanks to Littlefinger's tutelage!  

2.  Littlefinger looooves Sansa...she is his kryptonite...He's so beguiled by the girl blinking back snowflakes in her cute little bearskin, he's almost forgotten he's a psychopath...(isn't GRRM so great at writing these 'grey' characters?)

Redemption is nigh!

;)

(Now we sit back and wait for:  a.  the Sansa fans and b. the Baelish apologists...I see Lord Wraith has already arrived on cue...)

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1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

And this calculated move allowed him to achieve two things. 1) He effectively managed to distract Sansa from focusing on the lie that he told her. 2) He stroked the rage in Aunt Lysa who he knew was watching. Who he knew was crazed. Who he knew disliked Sansa and who he knew would use the kiss as an opportunity to lash out at Sansa; giving Littlefinger the excuse that he needed to eliminate her without Sansa hating him for killing her family member.

Let's just call a spade a spade.  It's sexual abuse.  He's followed the exact checklist for grooming a child by a sexual predator.  Yes, she confronts him on his lie, but there's honestly nothing she can do about it.  She's wanted for regicide.  She can't reveal her true identity to anyone.  At that point, her aunt was still wanting her to marry SR so he could inherit Winterfell.  I don't think he planned on Lysa attempting to kill Sansa when she did, but he certainly knew the situation was a powder keg.  She had already dismissed 3 servants from the Eyrie for making allegations against Marillion, her favorite next to Petyr.  She has an unhinged aggression toward younger "competition" for men she covets.  He certainly took advantage of the situation when it presented itself.  He was probably going to do away with Lysa at some point, but she just created an opportunity herself and it made it easy.  She was trying to kill Sansa and Marillion did try to rape her, so it was easier to convince her to go along with the lie.  Plus he said if the truth were known they'd both be thrown out the Moon Door, so there's coersion too.  So no, she didn't "forget" anything.  There's just literally nothing she can do.

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

After his calculating and manipulative kiss, Littlefinger further tried to manipulate Sansa by spinning her a story about kissing her because she looked so beautiful standing in the snow. Trying to appeal to the little girl who grew up with a head full of romantic stories and songs.

She wrenched herself away from his grasp.  She is horrified and exclaims she could have been his daughter.  She's disgusted, not romanticizing anything.

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Littlefinger also sets out to worsen the tension between Sansa and Sweetrobin. He encourages Sansa's anger at her cousin for ruining her snow replica of Winterfell. “His lordship was destroying the castle,” he tells her, sending her the message that he approves of her anger towards her 8 year old cousin and allowing her to dwell on it. When Sansa in a rage mounts Sweetrobin's toy's head onto a stick as if to resemble a bloody head on a spike, Littlefinger laughs his encouragement at this display of resentment towards Sweetrobin and his property.

OKay, that's how their relationship starts.  Let's be honest, SR isn't exactly the easiest kid to like at first.  His mother was a pretty toxic helicopter parent.  He's 8 years old, but acts more like a toddler who has no boundaries or discipline.  But after Lysa's death, Sansa does feel sorry for him and slowly starts to take on a more motherly role with him.  The servants all turn to her to deal with SR because she has a way with him.

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Littlefinger actively seeks out to destroy any closeness between Sansa and her Vale relatives. He continues to build the tension between Sansa and her aunt/cousin until he finally is able to eliminate Lysa. The next step is to eliminate Sweetrobin.

Lysa was never going to be close to Sansa, with or without LF.  Look at how her relationship to Cat had deteriorated and Sansa looks exactly like Cat.  This was bad from the start.  Actually Lysa was the one who told her she was going to marry SR, so she kinda put a wedge in between Sansa and SR at first.  She had just escaped one forced marriage and she didn't want another.  That all changes after Lysa's death.  Sansa and SR start to bond more now that she's not under threat of a marriage.  LF really doesn't give a shit either way.  All he needs is SR to be trotted out publically now and then and look like he's being well cared for.   We're talking about reckless endangerment, not poisoning.  

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Littlefinger has helped destroy any love that Sansa could have felt for her cousin to the point that she is indifferent to Sweetrobin being gradually poisoned with Sweetsleep.

He's a drug addict.  He's not being poisoned.  He most likely became an addict through Lysa's breast milk.  She had severe paranoia and anxiety she was probably self-medicating.  The Faceless Men tell us that a few grains will make you calm.  So it does have legitimate anti-convulsive properties with a blissful effect.  Colemon is ordered by LF to give SR a pinch after Lysa's death.  The FM tell us a pinch should knock a grown man out.  SR can take a pinch dosage and remain perfectly lucid.  That's a ridiculously high tolerance for a child his size that could only be achieved by long term usage in small doses.  Sansa is not indifferent to her cousin.  She spends a lot of time with him, worries about his shaking fits and tries to soothe him.  Hell she doesn't really "manipulate" him.  She tries to encourage him to better behavior and to coax him to behave more like a proper little lord.  

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Sansa even encourages the maester to give Robin more even though the maester warns her of the danger of doing so. To which Sansa thinks: Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns. That is what Littlefinger is turning her into. A Sansa that does not care about the poisoning of an innocent child. And that is not good at all.

2

 You're taking this out of context.  The situation is that the snows are falling quickly and everyone must leave the Eyrie or be trapped.  The decent from the mountain is so harrowing it makes grown men piss themselves.  Robert cannot have a shaking fit while he's riding a mule.  He could fall to his death.  Colemon (and I'll get to why people give this jackass too much credit) suggests knocking him out with dreamwine and strapping him to a mule like a sack of corn.  SR has a very serious image problem.  His own squires make fun of him and his servants gossip about his infantile behavior.  He's a lord and he's not treated with any respect because no one has taught him how a lord should behave.  Sansa cares about his dignity and strapping him to a mule is humiliating.  Even LF would probably disagree with Colemon.  He needs Robert looking fine and healthy in public by any means necessary.  

This is where we have a bit of a flawed POV interpretation.  Colemon sucks as a maester.  Part of his job as a maester is to educate and prepare Robert for rule.  Compare Colemon to how Luwin advises and helps Bran when he must be Winterfell's acting lord in Robb's absence.  In truth, he's nothing but a drug dispensary.  He's obviously very intimidated by Petyr, so much he's a mealy-mouthed doormat.  I liken him to an Arys Oakheart in moral fortitude.  He's gone along with the sweetsleep, despite his very weak protest.  He's got ravens and Petyr isn't always around.  He could have told someone that Robert isn't being cared for properly.  He doesn't.  It appears he tried to maybe ween Robert off the sweetmilk by giving him regular milk with something less sweet like honey.  That was the "foul" milk Robert had complain about.  It was missing the super sweet drug.  

When that didn't work  and Alayne confronts him on it (showing concern), he gives her such a stuttering, weak answer.  He tells her that she "doesn't understand," that it "doesn't leave the body."  Okay, if he's so concerned about Robert's welfare why doesn't he flat out educate her on drug addiction or tolerance levels?  He's speaking to a layperson who doesn't understand what that means.  He's just beating around the bush, speaking in vague little hints.  He asks about nose bleeds, but says nothing else.  He even agrees to give him more, but only if its the last for a period of time.  There's no indication that anyone has even given him more than that stipulation, so his warning is being adhered to.  So why isn't Colemon speaking plainly for Robert's welfare?  Because he's afraid for himself first and foremost.  If he were direct and honest, he'd have to admit he's been aware of all this for a very, very long time.  As the Arryn personal maester, he's probably been Lysa's source for sweetsleep too.  He want to drop just enough of a hint so someone else will take care of this problem that he has participated in creating.  

What does Sansa do on the trip down the Eyrie?  Bolster Robert's courage.  Constantly call him brave.  Reassure him he can do this.  They cross the narrow stone saddle together when Robert's courage is at its peak.  He's still shaking a little bit, but he did it of his own volition.  That's what Sansa does for her cousin.  That's not indifference or cruelty.  She's the only one parenting this kid and trying to influence him to be his best self.  I'm sorry this is a common misreading of Alayne II.  Part of it is Sansa is a flawed POV.  There's stuff she just isn't aware of.  She's also internalized some of the abusive language she's received like being called stupid.  She doesn't trust her own instincts because she believes she's stupid.  There's also Petyr's sexual abuse grooming process that is intended to create complicated and conflicting feelings toward the abuser so the victim will see themselves as complicit in their own abuse.  It's on purpose to minimize the risk of the victim exposing the abuser.           

 

 

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6 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

All great points except for the subtlety of two major truths that you've missed:

1.  Sansa's developing 'agency'...Boy, is she turning into 'a major player' of note, thanks to Littlefinger's tutelage!  

2.  Littlefinger looooves Sansa...she is his kryptonite...He's so beguiled by the girl blinking back snowflakes in her cute little bearskin, he's almost forgotten he's a psychopath...(isn't GRRM so great at writing these 'grey' characters?)

Redemption is nigh!

;)

(Now we sit back and wait for:  a.  the Sansa fans and b. the Baelish apologists...I see Lord Wraith has already arrived on cue...)

1) True or I believe will be in time.

2) I cast detect Sarcasm

(I just enjoy seeing people's opinions and how wrong I believe they are. Someone has to.)

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I had to redo my post when the board ate some of it.  I wanted to add killing SR makes zero sense for LF.  His whole basis for legitimacy as Lord Protector is based on being SR's guardian.  Without the kid, he has no legal right to be there and he gets sent packing to Harrenhal.  Harry the Heir is no where even close to being under LF's control yet.  Robert's medical care was a point of contention at the Lords Declarant meeting.  The other lords objected to Maester Colemon being experienced enough to care for SR, that he should be fostered elsewhere with a better maester and other boys his age.  LF counters that Robert is being well cared for by Colemon.  The sweetsleep keeps Robert calm and lucid when LF needs him to be on public display, seeming to be healthy enough so there's no objection to his guardianship on that basis.  It's reckless endangerment.  Not poisoning.

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2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I don't think he knew that Lysa was watching, that has always sounded like nonsense. He had a moment of weakness and it almost cost him dearly. He wanted Lysa alive for the moment since she helped give him legitimacy. Luckily Baelish thinks fast on his feet and Marillion is the perfect patsy.

Sansa definitely knew Lysa was watching because she pointed to her. It wouldn't make sense for Sansa to notice Lysa's presence but Littlefinger would be oblivious to it.

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4 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Sansa definitely knew Lysa was watching because she pointed to her. It wouldn't make sense for Sansa to notice Lysa's presence but Littlefinger would be oblivious to it.

Quote please.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Quote please.

"You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now. "Your lady wife." "I do. Lysa has no cause for complaint."

The "but it was empty now," would not have been added if Sansa was not aware that someone was there before. Seeing that they were in the courtyard for a while, Littlefinger would surely have been aware of Lysa gazing from the balcony like Sansa was.

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20 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now. "Your lady wife." "I do. Lysa has no cause for complaint."

The "but it was empty now," would not have been added if Sansa was not aware that someone was there before. Seeing that they were in the courtyard for a while, Littlefinger would surely have been aware of Lysa gazing from the balcony like Sansa was.

 
Quote

 

Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow. A few servants came out and watched her for a time, but she paid them no mind and they soon went back inside where it was warmer. Sansa saw Lady Lysa gazing down from her balcony, wrapped up in a blue velvet robe trimmed with fox fur, but when she looked again her aunt was gone. Maester Colemon popped out of the rookery and peered down for a while, skinny and shivering but curious.
 
Her bridges kept falling down. There was a covered bridge between the armory and the main keep, and another that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower to the second floor of the rookery, but no matter how carefully she shaped them, they would not hold together. The third time one collapsed on her, she cursed aloud and sat back in helpless frustration.

 

Clearly time has passed since she saw Lysa. Baelish comes and joins her later. Sansa didn't notice her again nor did Baelish.

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3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I had to redo my post when the board ate some of it.  I wanted to add killing SR makes zero sense for LF.  His whole basis for legitimacy as Lord Protector is based on being SR's guardian.  Without the kid, he has no legal right to be there and he gets sent packing to Harrenhal.  Harry the Heir is no where even close to being under LF's control yet.  Robert's medical care was a point of contention at the Lords Declarant meeting.  The other lords objected to Maester Colemon being experienced enough to care for SR, that he should be fostered elsewhere with a better maester and other boys his age.  LF counters that Robert is being well cared for by Colemon.  The sweetsleep keeps Robert calm and lucid when LF needs him to be on public display, seeming to be healthy enough so there's no objection to his guardianship on that basis.  It's reckless endangerment.  Not poisoning.

 

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Let's just call a spade a spade.  It's sexual abuse.  He's followed the exact checklist for grooming a child by a sexual predator.  Yes, she confronts him on his lie, but there's honestly nothing she can do about it.  She's wanted for regicide.  She can't reveal her true identity to anyone.  At that point, her aunt was still wanting her to marry SR so he could inherit Winterfell.  I don't think he planned on Lysa attempting to kill Sansa when she did, but he certainly knew the situation was a powder keg.  She had already dismissed 3 servants from the Eyrie for making allegations against Marillion, her favorite next to Petyr.  She has an unhinged aggression toward younger "competition" for men she covets.  He certainly took advantage of the situation when it presented itself.  He was probably going to do away with Lysa at some point, but she just created an opportunity herself and it made it easy.  She was trying to kill Sansa and Marillion did try to rape her, so it was easier to convince her to go along with the lie.  Plus he said if the truth were known they'd both be thrown out the Moon Door, so there's coersion too.  So no, she didn't "forget" anything.  There's just literally nothing she can do.

She wrenched herself away from his grasp.  She is horrified and exclaims she could have been his daughter.  She's disgusted, not romanticizing anything.

OKay, that's how their relationship starts.  Let's be honest, SR isn't exactly the easiest kid to like at first.  His mother was a pretty toxic helicopter parent.  He's 8 years old, but acts more like a toddler who has no boundaries or discipline.  But after Lysa's death, Sansa does feel sorry for him and slowly starts to take on a more motherly role with him.  The servants all turn to her to deal with SR because she has a way with him.

Lysa was never going to be close to Sansa, with or without LF.  Look at how her relationship to Cat had deteriorated and Sansa looks exactly like Cat.  This was bad from the start.  Actually Lysa was the one who told her she was going to marry SR, so she kinda put a wedge in between Sansa and SR at first.  She had just escaped one forced marriage and she didn't want another.  That all changes after Lysa's death.  Sansa and SR start to bond more now that she's not under threat of a marriage.  LF really doesn't give a shit either way.  All he needs is SR to be trotted out publically now and then and look like he's being well cared for.   We're talking about reckless endangerment, not poisoning.  

He's a drug addict.  He's not being poisoned.  He most likely became an addict through Lysa's breast milk.  She had severe paranoia and anxiety she was probably self-medicating.  The Faceless Men tell us that a few grains will make you calm.  So it does have legitimate anti-convulsive properties with a blissful effect.  Colemon is ordered by LF to give SR a pinch after Lysa's death.  The FM tell us a pinch should knock a grown man out.  SR can take a pinch dosage and remain perfectly lucid.  That's a ridiculously high tolerance for a child his size that could only be achieved by long term usage in small doses.  Sansa is not indifferent to her cousin.  She spends a lot of time with him, worries about his shaking fits and tries to soothe him.  Hell she doesn't really "manipulate" him.  She tries to encourage him to better behavior and to coax him to behave more like a proper little lord.  

 You're taking this out of context.  The situation is that the snows are falling quickly and everyone must leave the Eyrie or be trapped.  The decent from the mountain is so harrowing it makes grown men piss themselves.  Robert cannot have a shaking fit while he's riding a mule.  He could fall to his death.  Colemon (and I'll get to why people give this jackass too much credit) suggests knocking him out with dreamwine and strapping him to a mule like a sack of corn.  SR has a very serious image problem.  His own squires make fun of him and his servants gossip about his infantile behavior.  He's a lord and he's not treated with any respect because no one has taught him how a lord should behave.  Sansa cares about his dignity and strapping him to a mule is humiliating.  Even LF would probably disagree with Colemon.  He needs Robert looking fine and healthy in public by any means necessary.  

This is where we have a bit of a flawed POV interpretation.  Colemon sucks as a maester.  Part of his job as a maester is to educate and prepare Robert for rule.  Compare Colemon to how Luwin advises and helps Bran when he must be Winterfell's acting lord in Robb's absence.  In truth, he's nothing but a drug dispensary.  He's obviously very intimidated by Petyr, so much he's a mealy-mouthed doormat.  I liken him to an Arys Oakheart in moral fortitude.  He's gone along with the sweetsleep, despite his very weak protest.  He's got ravens and Petyr isn't always around.  He could have told someone that Robert isn't being cared for properly.  He doesn't.  It appears he tried to maybe ween Robert off the sweetmilk by giving him regular milk with something less sweet like honey.  That was the "foul" milk Robert had complain about.  It was missing the super sweet drug.  

When that didn't work  and Alayne confronts him on it (showing concern), he gives her such a stuttering, weak answer.  He tells her that she "doesn't understand," that it "doesn't leave the body."  Okay, if he's so concerned about Robert's welfare why doesn't he flat out educate her on drug addiction or tolerance levels?  He's speaking to a layperson who doesn't understand what that means.  He's just beating around the bush, speaking in vague little hints.  He asks about nose bleeds, but says nothing else.  He even agrees to give him more, but only if its the last for a period of time.  There's no indication that anyone has even given him more than that stipulation, so his warning is being adhered to.  So why isn't Colemon speaking plainly for Robert's welfare?  Because he's afraid for himself first and foremost.  If he were direct and honest, he'd have to admit he's been aware of all this for a very, very long time.  As the Arryn personal maester, he's probably been Lysa's source for sweetsleep too.  He want to drop just enough of a hint so someone else will take care of this problem that he has participated in creating.  

What does Sansa do on the trip down the Eyrie?  Bolster Robert's courage.  Constantly call him brave.  Reassure him he can do this.  They cross the narrow stone saddle together when Robert's courage is at its peak.  He's still shaking a little bit, but he did it of his own volition.  That's what Sansa does for her cousin.  That's not indifference or cruelty.  She's the only one parenting this kid and trying to influence him to be his best self.  I'm sorry this is a common misreading of Alayne II.  Part of it is Sansa is a flawed POV.  There's stuff she just isn't aware of.  She's also internalized some of the abusive language she's received like being called stupid.  She doesn't trust her own instincts because she believes she's stupid.  There's also Petyr's sexual abuse grooming process that is intended to create complicated and conflicting feelings toward the abuser so the victim will see themselves as complicit in their own abuse.  It's on purpose to minimize the risk of the victim exposing the abuser.           

 

 

"Coleman only wanted what was BEST for the boy"

     • Sansa acknowledging the maester cares greatly about Sweetrobin's health and well being. 

"but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true."

    • Sansa decides what is best for Sweetrobin is NOT what is best for the Lord of the Vale.          1) Sweetrobin being alive is what it best for him, but him being dead is what is best for Lord Arryn (because they need Harry the Heir in this position). 

"Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns."  

    • Again Sansa acknowledges that the maester cares for the boy but her and Littlefinger do not. Because her and Littlefinger need him dead. That's why the marriage to Harry the Heir is being set up.

       1) But Sweetrobin needs to die first and the sweetsleep will make his death look as NATURAL as possible which is why Littlefinger is using it. 

Everyone is already suspicious of him, he can't afford for Robin's death to look unnatural. 

Plus Littlefinger points out that Jon Arryn's banner men will never have love for him or the sickly Sweetrobin, only Harry the Heir can win their love and loyalty. Which is another reason he needs this marriage to happen.

To wrap up, Sansa is aware that Robin must die because that is the only way that she could get back Winterfell, through marrying Harry the Heir. Littlefinger reinforces this when Sansa says, "He's Robert's heir. If Robert were to die," and Littlefinger replies "*When* Robert dies."  He says this TWICE letting her know there isn't any other option. Sansa is not oblivious to what Littlefinger plans for Sweetrobin, she's knows he's meant to die. And she knows the sweetsleep is part of Littlefinger's plans in bringing about his death. That's why she repeatedly shuts down Maester Coleman when he tries to warn her. Because Sweetrobin's health and well being do not come before her plans for winning back Winterfell.

 

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13 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:
 

Clearly time has passed since she saw Lysa. Baelish comes and joins her later. Sansa didn't notice her again nor did Baelish.

Time passing doesn't change anything. Sansa immediately looked to the balcony knowing Lysa was there. Sansa was aware of Lysa's presence before the kiss and when the kiss started. If she had forgotten about Lysa she wouldn't have turned to the balcony telling Littlefinger it's Lysa that he should be kissing. Lysa left during the kiss which is why Sansa didn't see her go and hence her immediate reaction to glance to the balcony with the assumption that she was still there. Nothing in the text suggests that Sansa forgot about Lysa's presence.

 

Lysa was still standing on the balcony right up until after the kiss happened. Unless Sansa and Littlefinger suddenly went blind, why wouldn't Sansa still be aware of her presence and why wouldn't Littlefinger have noticed her? He sees everything.

Unless you're implying that Lysa left the balcony only to magically know Littlefinger started kissing Sansa and so she ran back out to witness the kiss.

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8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

2.  Littlefinger looooves Sansa...she is his kryptonite...He's so beguiled by the girl blinking back snowflakes in her cute little bearskin, he's almost forgotten he's a psychopath...(isn't GRRM so great at writing these 'grey' characters?)

He doesn't love Sansa. but he has mixed feelings about her.

"Sometimes he sees Sansa and she’s the daughter he never had,The daughter that he might have had with Cat…But at other times, he detaches himself from that and he’s less Petyr and more Littlefinger and she’s just another piece in the game of thrones…Yet, other times, she’s not Cat’s daughter, she’s like young Cat. She’s his teenage fantasies returned again and Then his feelings to her are sexual and romantic, and those feelings overcome him at the moment when he sees Sansa, so beautiful in the snow building a snow castle, Winterfell. it reminds him very much of the young cat and he reacts to that by kissing her and unfortunately Lysa sees that which is not something she wanted to see.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtYhmD2TZs0

 

10 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

And this calculated move allowed him to achieve two things

It was not a calculated move. it was impulsive and stupid.

 

10 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

After his calculating and manipulative kiss, Littlefinger further tried to manipulate Sansa by spinning her a story about kissing her because she looked so beautiful standing in the snow. Trying to appeal to the little girl who grew up with a head full of romantic stories and songs.

And again, It was not a calculating and manipulative kiss. it was a forced and impulsive kiss and it scared and disgusted her.

 

10 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Littlefinger is a class A manipulator and people tend to forget that and take his actions and words at face value.

Littlefinger is a class A manipulator but he is not flawless. kissing Sansa was a big mistake.

 

5 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Littlefinger reinforces this when Sansa says, "He's Robert's heir. If Robert were to die," and Littlefinger replies "*When* Robert dies."  He says this TWICE letting her know there isn't any other option.

 
Her eyes widened. "He is not Lady Waynwood's heir. He's Robert's heir. If Robert were to die . . ."
Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time.

He tells her his death is inevitable because of his health condition.

 

5 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Unless you're implying that Lysa left the balcony only to magically know Littlefinger started kissing Sansa and so she ran back out to witness the kiss.

Sansa saw Lady Lysa gazing down from her balcony, wrapped up in a blue velvet robe trimmed with fox fur, but when she looked again her aunt was gone.

She watched Sansa building her snow castle for a while and then she left the balcony. but she came back in time to witness the kiss.

 

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Robert Arryn will foil all of Baelish's plans once he seduces Sansa. He's already set a precedent by sneaking into her bed and nuzzling her breasts. He's conditioning Sansa to want and enjoy his touch. Soon enough he'll become a man and Sansa will demand more and he'll happily give it to her but only if she marries him. Robert will take his rightful seat as Lord of the Eyrie and have a claim to the North and potentially the Riverlands through his child with Sansa. No one will ever expect it from Sweetrobin but he's smarter and stronger then he and his Maester let people believe. 

The seed is strong! All those who doubt it are fools.

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She's  good ; he's  a manipulator.  Maybe she combines these to become a manipulator for good, who unlike Eddard can operate at the speed of the king's landing game while retaining the heart o' the north.    It's what the family needs--a subtle leader, so they don't have to go to war every other year because they played it honorably blunt and got screwed over.

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38 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

He doesn't love Sansa. but he has mixed feelings about her.

"Sometimes he sees Sansa and she’s the daughter he never had,The daughter that he might have had with Cat…But at other times, he detaches himself from that and he’s less Petyr and more Littlefinger and she’s just another piece in the game of thrones…Yet, other times, she’s not Cat’s daughter, she’s like young Cat. She’s his teenage fantasies returned again and Then his feelings to her are sexual and romantic, and those feelings overcome him at the moment when he sees Sansa in the snow, so beautiful in the snow building a snow castle,Winterfell. it reminds him very much of the young cat and he reacts to that by kissing her and unfortunately Lysa sees that which is not something she wanted to see.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtYhmD2TZs0

 

It was not a calculated move. it was impulsive and stupid.

 

And again, It was not a calculating and manipulative kiss it was a forced and impulsive kiss and it scared and disgusted her.

 

Littlefinger is a class A manipulator but he is not flawless. kissing Sansa was a big mistake.

 

 
Her eyes widened. "He is not Lady Waynwood's heir. He's Robert's heir. If Robert were to die . . ."
Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time.
 

He tells her his death is inevitable because of his heath condition.

 

Littlefinger doesn't feel the need to spell out everything. People need to read between the lies, I mean *lines*

 Littlefinger says this mockingly to show what others will believe is the cause of Robin's death. But he and Sansa know what the true cause will be.

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1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

 

He doesn't love Sansa. but he has mixed feelings about her.

"Sometimes he sees Sansa and she’s the daughter he never had,The daughter that he might have had with Cat…But at other times, he detaches himself from that and he’s less Petyr and more Littlefinger and she’s just another piece in the game of thrones…Yet, other times, she’s not Cat’s daughter, she’s like young Cat. She’s his teenage fantasies returned again and Then his feelings to her are sexual and romantic, and those feelings overcome him at the moment when he sees Sansa in the snow, so beautiful in the snow building a snow castle,Winterfell. it reminds him very much of the young cat and he reacts to that by kissing her and unfortunately Lysa sees that which is not something she wanted to see.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtYhmD2TZs0

 

It was not a calculated move. it was impulsive and stupid.

 

And again, It was not a calculating and manipulative kiss. it was a forced and impulsive kiss and it scared and disgusted her.

 

Littlefinger is a class A manipulator but he is not flawless. kissing Sansa was a big mistake.

 

 
Her eyes widened. "He is not Lady Waynwood's heir. He's Robert's heir. If Robert were to die . . ."
Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time.

He tells her his death is inevitable because of his health condition.

 

Sansa saw Lady Lysa gazing down from her balcony, wrapped up in a blue velvet robe trimmed with fox fur, but when she looked again her aunt was gone.

She watched Sansa building her snow castle for a while and then she left the balcony. but she came back in time to witness the kiss.

 

 Lysa must have returned to stand on the balcony for a few minutes before the kiss happened, giving Sansa and Littlefinger both ample time to see her. Or else the line ("You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now.) wouldn't make sense.

This line implies that Lysa returned to the balcony and Sansa saw her. Why would Sansa point out 'but it was empty now' when she already saw Lysa leave before? Pointing out the balcony was empty "now" when she  knew Lysa left a long time ago? Unless if Lysa returned to the balcony but recently left again. And Sansa was acknowledging her leaving a second time after returning.

Which is what the line implies. If Sansa saw Lysa after she returned again before the kiss, then Littlefinger saw her too right before kissing Sansa.

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1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

 Littlefinger says this mockingly to show what others will believe is the cause of Robin's death. But he and Sansa know what the true cause will be.

LF needs the boy alive for at least one year. SR has been his only excuse to remain in the Vale after Lysa's death. so I think he has no intention to kill him before Sansa's wedding. it would be a stupid move. I think he only wants SR to be calm and act like a proper lord for now. but even if he has a plan to kill him by poisoning, Sansa is not aware of it. she thinks the drug is for his seizures. she knows it's not harmless but she also knows it's the only effective treatment.

And if she is poisoning him why she hopes he lives long enough to wed?(TWOW spoilers)

Spoiler

"If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him."

Why she wants to keep him safe and make him brave?

Spoiler

Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

 

49 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

then Littlefinger saw her too right before kissing Sansa.

If he had seen her he wouldn't have made that foolish mistake.

 

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1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

LF needs the boy alive for at least one year. SR has been his only excuse to remain in the Vale after Lysa's death. so I think he has no intention to kill him before Sansa's wedding. it would be a stupid move. I think he only wants SR to be calm and act like a proper lord for now. but even if he has a plan to kill him by poisoning, Sansa is not aware of it. she thinks the drug is for his seizures. she knows it's not harmless but she also knows it's the only effective treatment.

And if she is poisoning him why she hopes he lives long enough to wed?(TWOW spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

"If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him."

Why she wants to keep him safe and make him brave?

  Reveal hidden contents

Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

 

If he had seen her he wouldn't have made that foolish mistake.

 

It wasn't a foolish mistake (maybe hasty) because it allowed him to eliminate her, now he's one step closer to his goal. His next target is Sweetrobin. 

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10 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

...Littlefinger also sets out to worsen the tension between Sansa and Sweetrobin. He encourages Sansa's anger at her cousin for ruining her snow replica of Winterfell. “His lordship was destroying the castle,” he tells her, sending her the message that he approves of her anger towards her 8 year old cousin and allowing her to dwell on it. When Sansa in a rage mounts Sweetrobin's toy's head onto a stick as if to resemble a bloody head on a spike, Littlefinger laughs his encouragement at this display of resentment towards Sweetrobin and his property.

 

Littlefinger actively seeks out to destroy any closeness between Sansa and her Vale relatives. He continues to build the tension between Sansa and her aunt/cousin until he finally is able to eliminate Lysa. The next step is to eliminate Sweetrobin. Littlefinger has helped destroy any love that Sansa could have felt for her cousin to the point that she is indifferent to Sweetrobin being gradually poisoned with Sweetsleep. Sansa even encourages the maester to give Robin more even though the maester warns her of the danger of doing so. To which Sansa thinks: Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns. That is what Littlefinger is turning her into. A Sansa that does not care about the poisoning of an innocent child. And that is not good at all.

Father and I have larger concerns.

That phrase plagues me, especially in light of these elements in the chapter of WOW

Spoiler

1) Sansa happily organising something Ned loathed: a tourney. 2) And that garishly ostentatious 12 foot high lemon cake.

I suspect GRRM has something fittingly ....georgish in mind for Sansa and Baelish.

 

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Robert Arryn will foil all of Baelish's plans once he seduces Sansa. He's already set a precedent by sneaking into her bed and nuzzling her breasts. He's conditioning Sansa to want and enjoy his touch. Soon enough he'll become a man and Sansa will demand more and he'll happily give it to her but only if she marries him. Robert will take his rightful seat as Lord of the Eyrie and have a claim to the North and potentially the Riverlands through his child with Sansa. No one will ever expect it from Sweetrobin but he's smarter and stronger then he and his Maester let people believe. 

The seed is strong! All those who doubt it are fools.

It is known!

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