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Why does Littlefinger kiss Sansa after she builds a Snow Castle? It’s not for the reason most people think...


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2 hours ago, winter daughter said:

LF needs the boy alive for at least one year. SR has been his only excuse to remain in the Vale after Lysa's death. so I think he has no intention to kill him before Sansa's wedding. it would be a stupid move. I think he only wants SR to be calm and act like a proper lord for now. but even if he has a plan to kill him by poisoning, Sansa is not aware of it. she thinks the drug is for his seizures. she knows it's not harmless but she also knows it's the only effective treatment.

And if she is poisoning him why she hopes he lives long enough to wed?(TWOW spoilers)

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"If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him."

Why she wants to keep him safe and make him brave?

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Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

 

If he had seen her he wouldn't have made that foolish mistake.

 

Because Sansa has a habit of repressing unpleasant things hence why she's an unreliable narrator. She changes things that are unpleasant to make them more pleasant so she can cope. She represses Sweetrobin's slow poisoning because it's unpleasant and convinces herself into believing that he is going to live a long and healthy life.Throughout the books we have multiple examples of Sansa altering the truth of what happens to make it more bearable.

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8 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

That phrase plagues me, especially in light of these elements in the chapter of WOW

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1) Sansa happily organising something Ned loathed: a tourney. 2) And that garishly ostentatious 12 foot high lemon cake.

I suspect GRRM has something fittingly ....georgish in mind for Sansa and Baelish.

(for a little while, I wonder if Littlefinger will die eating a lemoncake/lemon pie, and if the following quote could foreshadow the killing power of lemoncakes  : 

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"The m-maesters think not," Sam stammered. "The maesters say it comes from the fires of the earth. They call it obsidian."
Mormont snorted. "They can call it lemon pie for all I care. If it kills as you claim, I want more of it."
 
Samwell II ASOS

 

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1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

It wasn't a foolish mistake (maybe hasty) because it allowed him to eliminate her, now he's one step closer to his goal. His next target is Sweetrobin. 

It was not a good time to eliminate her. he was not in a good position in that time. he was hated by Vale lords because of his marriage to Lysa. she was his only true supporter.

Someone(other than Lysa) could've seen the kiss and told all the household about it. Lysa went mad and tried to push Sansa out of the moon door because of that. and he was forced to kill her too soon. so I think it was a foolish mistake.

 

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Because Sansa has a habit of repressing unpleasant things hence why she's an unreliable narrator.

You can not dismiss textual proofs because she misremembers a kiss or because sometimes she tries not to think about unpleasant things.

As I said before, LF needs SR alive for now. he is his most valuable pawn, his only excuse to remain in the Vale. killing him in the near future would be a great mistake.

 

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1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

It was not a good time to eliminate her. he was not in a good position in that time. he was hated by Vale lords because of his marriage to Lysa. she was his only true supporter.

Someone(other than Lysa) could've seen the kiss and told all the household about it. Lysa went mad and tried to push Sansa out of the moon door because of that. and he was forced to kill her too soon. so I think it was a foolish mistake.

Exactly my thoughts. If Littlefinger would had planed it this way it would have been a poor plan with too many variables:

  • It would had been better for LF to kill lysa later when he would be more established in the vale.
  • There was a good chance that lysa would had killed sansa, so LF played with the risk of losing his most valuable card in the game.
  • Why should he even include sansa in his plan? She now knows that LF killed lysa. He managed to use it to his advantage, but it is still a risk factor he would had better avoided.
  • There would have been multible ways to avoid all this problems by killing lysa later and not include sansa in this plan at all.

So between the possibilities of LF making one little mistake (kissing sansa) out of his one raw point and LF following a plan that includes multible inconsistencies and variables in his own, I tend to think that the last one would disqualify him more as a political mastermind.

The only possibility where I could see this is if GRRM wanted LF to have a masterplan but needed sansa as a POV in the action, so he accepted that LF plan would had many mistakes if he goes through with it.

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8 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"Coleman only wanted what was BEST for the boy"

     • Sansa acknowledging the maester cares greatly about Sweetrobin's health and well being.

People love to pick out this line as damning evidence, but usually they fail to verify if the POV narrator's words match objectively with other evidence.  I also love how people are selective about when Sansa is making an accurate statement and when she's "repressing" things and it's usually when they need to suit their argument. 

The objective evidence says Colemon doesn't care about Robert very much at all.  He doesn't do the main part of his job which is educate and prepare Robert for lordship.  He's also supposed to be in an advisory role, but he's never been included in any closed door meetings.  Nor does he make any fuss that he isn't.  Compare him to Maester Luwin.  Colemon exists to stand by and dispense drugs when commanded, because its easy and means he doesn't have to risk himself by standing up to Lysa or Petyr.  Does that sound like someone who cares about Robert's well-being first and foremost?

Second, does he tell anyone about this supposed "poisoning?" Nope.  He has ravens.  Petyr isn't always in the Eyrie.  Oh wait, he really can't because he's the source of the sweetsleep and complicit in giving it to him.  That makes him guilty as Petyr's accomplice and means he puts saving his own skin ahead of SR's health.  So that makes Sansa's statement glaringly mistaken.  Of course she is mistaken, she doesn't know what the reader knows.  We know about sweetsleep because of the Faceless Men.  The dosage Colemon has given him is way, way off.  He should know that as a maester, which means he;s a terrible maester.  

Third, if Colemon is the good guy here and Sansa/LF are the bad guys, why does he go to her with his concerns?  That makes no sense.  If he believed LF and Sansa were trying to harm SR and he cares oh so much about the boy, he wouldn't go to one of his murderers.  Like hey "the way your murdering him is going to murder him, so I advise you to wait 6 months before resuming murdering him.  And by the way, I'm revealing that I know you're murdering him just in case you need to tie up any loose ends later."  :rolleyes:  Come on!!! 

You are totally ignoring the context of the whole conversation.

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"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

Colemon is saying himself Sansa doesn't understand.  How can she be both a witting accomplice to murder and have no idea how he is being murdered at the same time?  He's fucking lying here.  He knows full well a pinch should be knocking him out, not just preventing the shaking.  He is concealing the real truth about sweetsleep and avoiding any discussion of why Robert has such a high tolerance level.   All he does is give this very vague warning to someone who doesn't understand the whole picture.  He doesn't say what the end result could be.  He leaves it open ended.  Why?  Because if he said flat out this is killing him or making his tolerance level even higher, he would have to explain himself.  He would have to admit his own part in Robert's endangerment.     

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"Did Maester Colemon send you?" the boy asked.
"No," she lied. "I heard my Sweetrobin was ailing." After his encounter with the chamber pot the maester had come running to Ser Lothor, and Brune had come to her. "If m'lady can talk him out of bed nice," the knight said, "I won't have to drag him out."
We can't have that, she told herself. When Robert was handled roughly he was apt to go into a shaking fit. 

 Oh so when he got a chamber pot thrown at him, Colemon goes to Lothor to "drag out" Robert from bed.  Lothor goes to Sansa to gently convince him to get up and get dressed so he won't have a shaking fit.  Colemon suggests just dragging the kid from the Eyrie, doping him up again, and tying him to a mule.  Does that sound like concern for his well-being?  Handling him roughly and humiliating the kid?  I want to throw a chamber pot at that guy.

So no.  Just no.  Sansa is totally 100% mistaken about Colemon.  That statement does not jive with objective reality.  

8 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

1) Sweetrobin being alive is what it best for him, but him being dead is what is best for Lord Arryn (because they need Harry the Heir in this position). 

At that point when she makes that statement, she has no idea about Harry the Heir or any plans LF has with him.  That comes at the end of Alayne II.  You are switching around the order of events to suit your argument.  Okay, so if they need him dead and they need a natural death, why not let him have a shaking fit on the mountain so he falls to his death?  That would be totally plausible and believable.  They don't need to wait for some unknown time for SR to die by "poisoning."  This interpretation makes no sense with every effort she makes to bolster his courage and help him to carry himself with dignity.  You're also ignoring the fact that when LF tells her about the marriage to Harry, she internally reacts with horror at the idea.  She doesn't want to marry anyone, so why would she want SR dead so she can get married?  

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Petyr Baelish took her by the hand and drew her down onto his lap. "I have made a marriage contract for you."
"A marriage . . ." Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. "I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . ." Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. "I am married," she whispered. "You know."
Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. "The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed. And you must meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that."

She fears LF.  That's why she can't honestly express that she doesn't want to marry again.  So she makes the excuse she's already married to Tyrion.  This does not speak of someone totally on board with his plans, but what choice does she have at this moment?  None.  Sansa Stark is wanted for regicide.  She's stuck for now in this Alayne Stone role, not by choice.  Petyr made sure she was boxed in by coercing her with shared responsibility over Lysa's death.  And keep in mind, in exchange for LF's plan to "help" to bring her home he wants "another kiss."  It heavily implies he expects a sexual relationship in return.  Even if she sees marrying Harry as the only way to get home (which is the only thing she truly wants out of his list of "gifts"), it makes her own sexual abuse "her fault."  That is a classic sexual predator strategy.  Make the victim feel responsible for their own abuse.  

@Prof. Cecily  In regards to your TWOW concerns:

Spoiler

She came up with the tourney idea to give SR winged knights of his own to "make him brave."  She's using the story of his ancestor Artys Arryn as a role model and inspiration as a (drug-free) treatment for his anxieties.  The less anxiety he has = fewer shaking fits.  That's always been her strategy with him, to talk him through stress to overcome his fears.  LF is taking advantage of the tourney to bring Harry to the Vale, to woo him away from Yohn Royce's influence.  Their reasons for the tourney are completely different.

As for the lemoncake, if you think of it as a giant phallic symbol its a sign of Petyr becoming less in control of his lust for her.  He's starting to not think of her as a daughter at all and more as a sex object.  Even worse, he's pimping her out to get what he wants, so he's actually even making her a whore.    

 

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3 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Because Sansa has a habit of repressing unpleasant things hence why she's an unreliable narrator. She changes things that are unpleasant to make them more pleasant so she can cope. She represses Sweetrobin's slow poisoning because it's unpleasant and convinces herself into believing that he is going to live a long and healthy life.Throughout the books we have multiple examples of Sansa altering the truth of what happens to make it more bearable.

This is a common misconception.  Sansa is actually pretty accurate when describing events as they happen.  It's only a few things that the mis-remembers after the fact.  It was only in early AGOT that she was stubborn about Joffrey's role in the ruby ford, but after Ned's execution she has no more illusions about the Lannisters.  These are all separate things that can affect POV narration:  is she genuinely mistaken about something?  is it mis-remembering?  is it "repression?"  is it just a belief she has based on limited information?  We can't know that until we look at the context and examine the objective facts.  She never made up any stories about being beaten, stripped, a crossbow pointed at her face, watching her father's beheading, almost getting killed by a mob in riot, her ambush marriage to Tyrion, her attempted rape by Marillion, Lysa trying to murder her, Petyr's sexual abuse.  Lots of very unpleasant events to choose from and she remembers them all very clearly and accurately.  Funny how people always claim she's repressing and re-writing reality without corroborating evidence that she is actually doing that in that particular moment.  It always selective to suit their arguments; however, it's a lazy and reductive blanket statement dressed up like character analysis.  

      

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4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The objective evidence says Colemon doesn't care about Robert very much at all.  He doesn't do the main part of his job which is educate and prepare Robert for lordship.  He's also supposed to be in an advisory role, but he's never been included in any closed door meetings.  Nor does he make any fuss that he isn't.

We need to consider how overprotective Lysa was. Maybe she refused to let the maester train little Robbie - after all, his health was SOOOO delicate. Maybe little Robbie threw tantrums - and chamberpots and food - when told it was time for lessons, so he was excused. Maybe little Bob declared, as Warden of the Vale he didn't need any lessons. He claimed Right of Commannd even when mother Lysa was alive; there would be no check on him after her death.

Don't put everything on Coleman - he serves at the sufference of Lady Lysa. And if she won't let him into closed door meetings, how is that Coleman's fault? Moreover, how much "fuss" is a person likely to make, in a place where the cells only have three walls and a 600 foot drop, downramp?

I'm also not convinced by the proposition that Robbie Arryn was hooked on sweetsleep. A craving for sweet is pretty much human nature, whether it's sugar, honey, corn sweeteners, "sugar of lead" - or sweetsleep. The more you have, the more you want.

I may have missed this in a very interesting discussion (thanks, everyone!), but did Robert Arryn FIRST start being dosed with sweetsleep once Littlefinger came to the Aerrie - or was it longer term? I think the answer is significant. And, I can't help but note the similarities with Tywin Lannister, recalling one Small Council meeting where Joffrey got too bloodthirstily obstreperous, and Tywin calmly ordered him taken out, put to bed and dosed with a sleeping agent.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This is a common misconception.  Sansa is actually pretty accurate when describing events as they happen.  It's only a few things that the mis-remembers after the fact.  It was only in early AGOT that she was stubborn about Joffrey's role in the ruby ford, but after Ned's execution she has no more illusions about the Lannisters.  These are all separate things that can affect POV narration:  is she genuinely mistaken about something?  is it mis-remembering?  is it "repression?"  is it just a belief she has based on limited information?

I would characterize it as 'self-justification.'

She doesn't 'mis-remember' so much as 'mis-represent' the memory!  The self-deception or 'altering the reality to make it more bearable' (as @Houseofthedirewolves noted) involved is closer to lying about reality than dissociating from reality, though there is a fine line in Sansa's case.

As you pointed out, she's a victim of sexual (and other) abuse, so in order to cope with that victim status, simultaneously with the ongoing horror of living with the chief abuser, and the necessity of placating that abuser, she needs to justify her helplessness, which is in actual fact an unwillingness (born of fear and cowardice) to confront aggressors or correct the record (beginning with Joffrey and Cersei at the Trident and culminating recently in her perpetuating the lie about Lysa's death).  Unfortunately, this has led to an 'if you can't beat 'em, join them' situation where she is increasingly complicit in pursuing the psychopath's agenda (which Sansa has worked hard at persuading herself is actually also her agenda), which her fans mistake for newfound personal 'agency.'  Is one really an agent when one is basically the agent of another?

For example:

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A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

"And this lie may spare us. Else you and I must leave the Eyrie by the same door Lysa used." Petyr picked up his quill again. "We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he'll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you."

He is serving me lies as well, Sansa realized. They were comforting lies, though, and she thought them kindly meant. A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant. If only she believed them . . .

The things her aunt had said just before she fell still troubled Sansa greatly. "Ravings," Petyr called them. "My wife was mad, you saw that for yourself." And so she had. All I did was build a snow castle, and she meant to push me out the Moon Door. Petyr saved me. He loved my mother well, and . . .

 

A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

"Lord Nestor has a mole," he said, squirming. Robert was afraid of men with moles. "Mommy said he was dreadful."

"My poor Sweetrobin." Sansa smoothed his hair back. "You miss her, I know. Lord Petyr misses her too. He loved her just as you do." That was a lie, though kindly meant. The only woman Petyr ever loved was Sansa's murdered mother. He had confessed as much to Lady Lysa just before he pushed her out the Moon Door. She was mad and dangerous. She murdered her own lord husband, and would have murdered me if Petyr had not come along to save me.

Robert did not need to know that, though. He was only a sick little boy who'd loved his mother. "There," Sansa said, "you look a proper lord now. Maddy, fetch his cloak." It was lambswool, soft and warm, a handsome sky-blue that set off the cream color of his tunic. She fastened it about his shoulders with a silver brooch in the shape of a crescent moon, and took him by the hand. Robert came meekly for once.

 

A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

"I will." He cuddled close and laid his head between her breasts. "Alayne? Are you my mother now?"

"I suppose I am," she said. If a lie was kindly meant, there was no harm in it.

 

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise . . . music. Music frightens him."

"Music soothes him," she corrected, "the high harp especially. It's singing he can't abide, since Marillion killed his mother." Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not; the other seemed no more than a bad dream that sometimes troubled her sleep. "Lord Nestor will have no singers at the feast, only flutes and fiddles for the dancing." What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne . . . "Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble."

Robert is the one taking the literal sweetsleep; it's Sansa, however, who has a high tolerance for the figurative kind of 'sweetsleep'!

 

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 We can't know that until we look at the context and examine the objective facts.  She never made up any stories about being beaten, stripped, a crossbow pointed at her face, watching her father's beheading, almost getting killed by a mob in riot, her ambush marriage to Tyrion, her attempted rape by Marillion, Lysa trying to murder her, Petyr's sexual abuse.  Lots of very unpleasant events to choose from and she remembers them all very clearly and accurately.  Funny how people always claim she's repressing and re-writing reality without corroborating evidence that she is actually doing that in that particular moment.  It always selective to suit their arguments; however, it's a lazy and reductive blanket statement dressed up like character analysis.     

There's nothing wrong with her memory or reality testing.  She is, however, constantly 're-writing' what happened, and more importantly why it happened, typically misattributing motivation and responsibility to suit her 'comforting' narrative.  Unruly sister Arya spoiled everything by provoking Joffrey and getting Lady killed instead of Nymeria.  Lysa is the crazed serial murderer from whom Petyr had no other choice but to defend her, thank goodness!  There is a pattern here: damn the female family member (who is actually the victim, along with her); idealize Sansa's male champion of the moment (who is actually the aggressor).  Petyr framed Sansa for regicide (something he confessed doing to her), a pickle from which he subsequently 'graciously rescued' her.  Then, by carelessly kissing her (no, I don't think it was planned) in full public view, which he ought to have been aware would have, on Lysa inevitably learning about it, dangerously aroused Lysa's simmering jealousy and irrational ire against Sansa (he had enough experience of the Lysa-Cat rivalry over him in his youth to know better); he again put Sansa in a compromising position where someone ended up threatening her life -- from which he conveniently 'rescued' her once again, leading her to conclude that 'Petyr saved me,' a circular and self-serving argument.  Littlefinger is someone who plays carelessly with other people's lives; and by carelessly re-telling history according to a narrative flattering to him, Sansa is walking in his footsteps. 

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1 minute ago, zandru said:

We need to consider how overprotective Lysa was. Maybe she refused to let the maester train little Robbie - after all, his health was SOOOO delicate. Maybe little Robbie threw tantrums - and chamberpots and food - when told it was time for lessons, so he was excused. Maybe little Bob declared, as Warden of the Vale he didn't need any lessons. He claimed Right of Commannd even when mother Lysa was alive; there would be no check on him after her death.

I would agree that Lysa was enjoying her position as regent, so she was using her son to a large degree.  She's certainly an extremely toxic parent that infantilized him, so neglecting proper age-appropriate education would be in line with her character.  He can read, we know that much, but he's not getting any lessons on how to rule.  Robert as a minor has no right to declare he doesn't need lessons anymore.  He's generally spoiled, but that's in regards to minor things.  Not more important decisions.  Regents and lord protectors have final say on all decisions until the lord comes of age at about 16.  

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"I don't like Ser Lyn," Robert insisted. "I won't have him here. You send him back down. I never said that he could come. Not here. The Eyrie is impregnable, Mother said."
"Your mother is dead, my lord. Until your sixteenth name day, I rule the Eyrie." Petyr turned to the stoop-backed serving woman hovering near the kitchen steps. "Mela, fetch his lordship a new spoon. He wants to eat his porridge."

So he really doesn't have a say in anything, not even breakfast.  He can have tantrums, but the servants  know who is really in charge here.  So Maester Colemon's responsibility to do his job is still there.  We don't even get a hint that he's attempted to do any lessons with the boy anywhere.  That is the first reason lords bring maesters into their homes, to educate their children so they can be competent leaders.  Of course, LF doesn't have a real interest in that.

13 minutes ago, zandru said:

Don't put everything on Coleman - he serves at the sufference of Lady Lysa. And if she won't let him into closed door meetings, how is that Coleman's fault? Moreover, how much "fuss" is a person likely to make, in a place where the cells only have three walls and a 600 foot drop, downramp?

Again if this is true, it's been going on for years.  He's never hinted at or voiced any concern over this.  He's hardly standing up for SR's best interests.  Look at the Lords Declarant meeting.  Major political power plays going on here.  That's the place anyone would want a maester to observe and advise.  So if Colemon is a good guy that is disturbed by all the things that are happening here, he's never once reached out to anyone about it.  He could have sent a raven to Yohn Royce as an obvious choice.  Petyr was in Gulltown for over a month at the Corbray wedding.  I'm not saying Colemon is an evil guy intentionally doing evil things.  He's a "just following orders" guy and there's no indication that anyone had to threaten him with the skycells for his compliance.  He gave it pretty easily after a pitifully weak protest.  I'm saying he looks the other way when bad stuff is happening and he prefers doing what's easier, which is compliance, to protect himself first and foremost.  He's hoping someone else (Alayne) will do something about it and take it off his hands.  He's not forthcoming because he himself is implicated in all this.  To tell the whole truth about what's going on means he has to admit to his own part in it.

29 minutes ago, zandru said:

I'm also not convinced by the proposition that Robbie Arryn was hooked on sweetsleep. A craving for sweet is pretty much human nature, whether it's sugar, honey, corn sweeteners, "sugar of lead" - or sweetsleep. The more you have, the more you want.

He can take a pinch of sweetsleep and be completely awake and lucid.  There's no way a boy under 80-ish pounds should be able to take that dosage when the FM say a pinch will knock a grown man out.  That speaks to a ridiculously high tolerance level that did not happen overnight, certainly way before Petyr suggested it.  It's Petyr that ordered the pinch dosage specifically, so he's has knowledge about this drug and how much SR can take (and Colemon agrees).  Petyr suggests putting it in cakes and sweets.  Maester Colemon was the Arryn personal physician since Jon was Hand.  Lysa was a paranoid kook with her own anxiety issues.  It's very plausible that she was abusing sweetsleep to medicate her mental illness and passed it through her breastmilk.  Where's the most likely place she got it from?  Colemon.  The author even gives us a clue:

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Dutifully she approached and knelt beside the bed. Her aunt was drenched in sweet scent, though under that was a sour milky smell. Her cheek tasted of paint and powder.

 A sweet scent masking the foul milk underneath.  She's a human shot of sweetmilk.  Her milk is toxic.  So Colemon puts it in the milk, not cakes or treats.  Why would he do that?  Unless he knew from the past that he was getting it in his mother's milk.

 

    

 

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13 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Time passing doesn't change anything. Sansa immediately looked to the balcony knowing Lysa was there. Sansa was aware of Lysa's presence before the kiss and when the kiss started. If she had forgotten about Lysa she wouldn't have turned to the balcony telling Littlefinger it's Lysa that he should be kissing. Lysa left during the kiss which is why Sansa didn't see her go and hence her immediate reaction to glance to the balcony with the assumption that she was still there. Nothing in the text suggests that Sansa forgot about Lysa's presence.

Lysa was still standing on the balcony right up until after the kiss happened. Unless Sansa and Littlefinger suddenly went blind, why wouldn't Sansa still be aware of her presence and why wouldn't Littlefinger have noticed her? He sees everything.

Unless you're implying that Lysa left the balcony only to magically know Littlefinger started kissing Sansa and so she ran back out to witness the kiss.

Er, no:

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Sansa saw Lady Lysa gazing down from her balcony, wrapped up in a blue velvet robe trimmed with fox fur, but when she looked again her aunt was gone. 

There is no subsequent indication that Lysa returned, which would have been noted by Sansa.  She just instinctively looked up to where Lysa had been earlier.  Likewise, if Sansa was aware that Lysa had been present, she wouldn't have been so stunned when Lysa subsequently accused Sansa of kissing Baelish.

The idea that Littlefinger deliberately kissed Sansa to provoke Lysa doesn't make any sense from his perspective, either.  He was absolutely planning to be rid of Lysa eventually, but there were any number of smoother ways to go about that.

Moreover, that interpretation makes Littlefinger a far less interesting character, as it's far more compelling if he has actual weaknesses.

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22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I would characterize it as 'self-justification.'

Good discussion! I think your observations are valid, and should make us readers concerned about Sansa's continuing development.

22 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

So he really doesn't have a say in anything, not even breakfast.  He can have tantrums, but the servants  know who is really in charge here.

Well, yes - but this is AFTER Lord Petyr takes charge. Up until this point, Robert Arryn's whole life seems to have been under Mommie Dearest's protective wing. In fact, as much as I dislike Baelish, his "parenting" skills here, telling Robert no, you're NOT the "lord", you're a child - this would have been a better approach. That, and a lot more preparation for becoming a ruler one day. Your assertion is that maesters are wholly responsible for training heirs, whether they want it or not and whether the Lord or Lady wants them trained or not, is, I think, unrealistic. Coleman seems no hero, but that doesn't make him a villain.

25 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

He can take a pinch of sweetsleep and be completely awake and lucid.  There's no way a boy under 80-ish pounds should be able to take that dosage when the FM say a pinch will knock a grown man out.  That speaks to a ridiculously high tolerance level that did not happen overnight, certainly way before Petyr suggested it

I admit you may have something here. Although how "a pinch" is defined might be variable. Moreover, if Lysa had been going for the sweetsleep heavily enough to give substantial doses via breast milk, over the course of years, why didn't it have cumulative effects on her? (Not to mention Robert)

I like the imagery of Lysa as smelling sweet, due to her perfumes, but underneath is the sourness, the falsity of all her paints and powers. Don't forget, Lysa is significantly overweight, and actual "sweets" as opposed to drugs, are likely to cause that medical condition.

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30 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

There is no subsequent indication that Lysa returned, which would have been noted by Sansa.  She just instinctively looked up to where Lysa had been earlier.  Likewise, if Sansa was aware that Lysa had been present, she wouldn't have been so stunned when Lysa subsequently accused Sansa of kissing Baelish.

What's interesting to note in that passage is that Sansa following the kiss looks up to check for her aunt on the balcony, betraying her anxiety and a guilty conscience; vs. Petyr who does not bother following the direction of her gaze, instead blithely smiling directly at her, indicating that he does not care either if Lysa saw them or not, nor for Sansa's ensuing unease as a result of his actions.

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The idea that Littlefinger deliberately kissed Sansa to provoke Lysa doesn't make any sense from his perspective, either.  He was absolutely planning to be rid of Lysa eventually, but there were any number of smoother ways to go about that.

Moreover, that interpretation makes Littlefinger a far less interesting character, as it's far more compelling if he has actual weaknesses.

He did not do it deliberately to needle Lysa.  It was an impulsive moment of pure self-satisfaction, a momentary regression emanating from the same fount of emotion which foolishly triggered him to challenge Brandon Stark to a duel.  Contrary to popular belief, 'that Petyr' still exists and the wound -- 'the token of Brandon's esteem' -- still festers.  I'd say it's a lifetime obsession.  I agree with you that his impulsivity makes him more interesting, though no less diabolical in the radical 'clean-up' operation inevitably following these moments of messy 'innocence'.  This kind of carelessness is also going to be his undoing, and the reason Varys -- whose 'balls' Petyr purportedly 'holds in his hand' -- is ahead in the Game:

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XII

"I love all sorts of tarts."

"Oh, I've known that a long while. Do you know why Varys is so dangerous?"

"Are we playing at riddles now? No."

"He doesn't have a cock."

"Neither do you." And don't you just hate that, Cersei?

"Perhaps I'm dangerous too. You, on the other hand, are as big a fool as every other man. That worm between your legs does half your thinking."

 

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7 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

This kind of carelessness is also going to be his undoing, and the reason Varys -- whose 'balls' Petyr purportedly 'holds in his hand' -- is ahead in the Game:

Indeed - first, because Varys literally has no "balls" to be held, and secondly, because Petyr himself still has that "worm between his legs" that influences his thinking. Admittedly less than most men in Westeros, but enough to cause him to inappropriately grope and press his lips upon his so-called "daughter." Now many of you will undoubtedly try to convince me that "sexual desire" and "desire to inflict power" are totally separate things. Sure - but they're often, very often, combined.

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

She doesn't 'mis-remember' so much as 'mis-represent' the memory!  The self-deception or 'altering the reality to make it more bearable' (as @Houseofthedirewolves noted) involved is closer to lying about reality than dissociating from reality, though there is a fine line in Sansa's case.

As you pointed out, she's a victim of sexual (and other) abuse, so in order to cope with that victim status, simultaneously with the ongoing horror of living with the chief abuser, and the necessity of placating that abuser, she needs to justify her helplessness, which is in actual fact an unwillingness (born of fear and cowardice) to confront aggressors or correct the record (beginning with Joffrey and Cersei at the Trident and culminating recently in her perpetuating the lie about Lysa's death).  Unfortunately, this has led to an 'if you can't beat 'em, join them' situation where she is increasingly complicit in pursuing the psychopath's agenda (which Sansa has worked hard at persuading herself is actually also her agenda), which her fans mistake for newfound personal 'agency.'  Is one really an agent when one is basically the agent of another?

For the record, I am a fan but I never made any comment about her "agency," which I don't think she has achieved yet.  Not until she is truly free and in a position to do so.  Not saying you were claiming I said that either.  I just want to be clear that Sansa doesn't actually have any good choices at the moment.  She's pretty boxed in and Petyr has made sure of that.  Bolded:  a victim does have to have a certain amount of safety in order to confront an aggressor or to be a whistle-blower.  I don't blame a victim of abuse for not confronting their abuser directly if it's only going to result in getting more abuse.  Real life victims get that shit tossed at them all the time.  Why didn't you just leave or do something?  Abusers thrive on that guilt and shame and it verifies in the victim's mind that no one cares about them.  During her captivity in KL, she wore the mask of courtesy as pretty much her only option to at least mitigate some harm.  It doesn't always work, but if it's the only tool you have.  That's not being in denial of her situation at that point in the story.  It does show evolution in her thinking about things more realistically and less naively over time.  

Red:  So what would happen if she confronted LF about the lies that she knows of?  He'd probably isolate her way more.  Keep her under heavy guard.  Threaten her even more.  Maybe worse things.  It would be KL all over again.  It's not so much a can't beat em, so join em.  It's recognizing that LF has a weakness for her.  That he has a blindspot where she is concerned.  So she exploits her best possible option under the circumstances:  play up the dutiful daughter.  Make him trust her as much as is possible.  It has gained her more freedom of movement than she had in KL.  He trusts her enough to leave the Eyrie for an extended period of time.  She's had more freedom to create relationships with other people when she was totally isolated before.   And playing up the daughter role is key.  If she can keep him thinking of her as a daughter, she's attempting to distance herself from the sex object.  It doesn't always work and it won't work at all the more womanly she becomes, but it's the tool she has to mitigate some of the sexual abuse.   

With Lysa's murder she is really, really stuck.  Lysa was legit trying to murder her and her attempted rapist was helping her.  She has a right not to feel too bad in that regard, but she still does feel bad.  She feels bad for SR who lost his mother.  She was crazy and terrible, but he still loved her.  She even feels bad for lying to him, but upsetting him and endangering his health with a shaking fit is a legitimate concern she has.  Petyr is exploiting her guilt certainly.  But Petyr isn't relying on guilt to keep her compliant.  He's also told her if anyone found out the truth, she'd be going through the Moon Door with him.  So she can't reveal herself as Sansa Stark and she can't tell the truth about Lysa -- at least not now, not when whistle-blowing could mean death.  In fact, he ensures she's imlicated by orchestrating her testimony to come before Marillions and what she will say:

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"Yes." Her throat felt so dry and tight it almost hurt to speak. "I saw . . . I was with the Lady Lysa when . . ." A tear rolled down her cheek. That's good, a tear is good. ". . . when Marillion . . . pushed her." And she told the tale again, hardly hearing the words as they spilled out of her.

And now Marillions:               

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"If I had eyes I should weep." The singer's voice, so strong and sure by night, was cracked and whispery now. "I loved her so, I could not bear to see her in another's arms, to know she shared his bed. I meant no harm to my sweet lady, I swear it. I barred the door so no one could disturb us whilst I declared my passion, but Lady Lysa was so cold . . . when she told that she was carrying Lord Petyr's child, a . . . a madness seized me . . ."

So he's tricked Sansa into publicly testifying that she was in the room when the murder happened.  Marillion on the other hand is instructed to make it sound like he and Lysa were alone.  If Marillion's testimony came first she might have caught this.  The singer is a widely reviled guy for Lysa's favoritism.  Belmore and Albar and Nestor Royce hate him.  They would have been satisfied with his "confession" and had him executed no problem.  Alayne's testimony was never necessary to the case, but Petyr set it up so by her own admission she was present.  If LF were ever exposed as the killer, Sansa by her own unwitting admission was there and a part of convicting an "innocent" man.  Looks really bad and he's boxed her in even more.  So she's not on board with him because she's okay with any of this, she just has no good options available.  

But it's also really complicated because it looks like he saved her from her limited knowledge.  She has an idea that his motives are not wholesome, but she has no idea the extent to which he's orchestrated all her predicaments.  There's so many moving parts to this dynamic that's why I'm resistant to using blanket statements of her memory to understand everything that's happening.  That's why I think it's important to look at her thought and compare it to the facts and context.  Then try to figure out if in this instance why she is thinking the way she is (or with any POV for that matter).  Is it just a mistake?  Is it a bias?  Is it denial?  Is it self-justifying as you say?  Or is it a belief that is consistent with an abuser's grooming process or internalizing the language of her abusers?  With Colemon, I think her thought that he cares about SR is objectively a mistake because she doesn't know the facts.  She is under the impression that sweetmilk is a legitimate treatment for shaking and Colemon omits important information to protect himself from blame.  In that instance she is faced with no good options:  Shaking fit on the mountain = certain death by falling.  Knocking him out and strapping him to a mule = mistreated in public and he is humiliated in front of his people.  Best possible option:  the risk (as vaguely as that was brought up) of a little sweetmilk to prevent the worst shaking then talk him through his anxieties.  Bolster his courage so he crosses the stone saddle of his own volition.  Dignity preserved, no panic attack, everyone safe.  No one fell off the mountain.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

carelessly re-telling history according to a narrative flattering to him, Sansa is walking in his footsteps

I don't see that as sharing the same values, she's terrified of what he can do if she voices her resistance.    Again, she's not in a position to confront him, not without putting herself in harms way.  He basically demonstrated with Lysa that he can murder someone and totally get away with it.  Not only that, he can murder the Lady of the Eyrie and gets nearly everyone on his side after the fact.  He's rewarded for his crime because they too are benefiting.  Lords are getting bribed.  Lyonel Corbray gets a young bride with a fat dowry.  Lady Waynwood is getting her debts paid plus her ward may one day have the Eyrie and Winterfell.  Nestor Royce is getting the title of lordship and ownership of the Gates.  Everyone is drinking the sweetmilk here. What can she realistically do at this time in the face of that?  Play up the dutiful daughter to avoid getting groped as much as she can and try not to get beheaded.     

       

  

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1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Er, no:

There is no subsequent indication that Lysa returned, which would have been noted by Sansa.  She just instinctively looked up to where Lysa had been earlier.  Likewise, if Sansa was aware that Lysa had been present, she wouldn't have been so stunned when Lysa subsequently accused Sansa of kissing Baelish.

The idea that Littlefinger deliberately kissed Sansa to provoke Lysa doesn't make any sense from his perspective, either.  He was absolutely planning to be rid of Lysa eventually, but there were any number of smoother ways to go about that.

Moreover, that interpretation makes Littlefinger a far less interesting character, as it's far more compelling if he has actual weaknesses.

The subsequent evidence is in  GRRM's writing and the way he worded it ("You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now.)  "Empty now". As in she recently left and Sansa is just noticing. 

Also another evidence that she returned? The fact that Lysa WITNESSED the kiss. I doubt she would have seen it if she did not return. It's like everyone expects that Lysa flew to the balcony in the seconds that it took the kiss to happen and then flew back out without being seen.

Lysa returned and Sansa saw her which is why she looked to the balcony and said "You're supposed to kiss her," with the belief that Lysa was still there ONLY to realize that Lysa was gone.

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27 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

So he's tricked Sansa into publicly testifying that she was in the room when the murder happened.  Marillion on the other hand is instructed to make it sound like he and Lysa were alone.

Good catch!! I had missed this. Clearly, Baelish set this up. Hours, maybe days, of carefully administered torture to get the story just right - that's what torture is for.

And while he possibly didn't set up the "fateful kiss" with as much advance planning, I'd be very surprised if Littlefinger wasn't aware of Lysa watching them and what her reaction might be. On the other hand, he cut it a little too fine, "coming to the rescue" when he did.

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8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

@Prof. Cecily  In regards to your TWOW concerns:

  Hide contents
Spoiler

 

She came up with the tourney idea to give SR winged knights of his own to "make him brave."  She's using the story of his ancestor Artys Arryn as a role model and inspiration as a (drug-free) treatment for his anxieties.  The less anxiety he has = fewer shaking fits.  That's always been her strategy with him, to talk him through stress to overcome his fears.  LF is taking advantage of the tourney to bring Harry to the Vale, to woo him away from Yohn Royce's influence.  Their reasons for the tourney are completely different.

As for the lemoncake, if you think of it as a giant phallic symbol its a sign of Petyr becoming less in control of his lust for her.  He's starting to not think of her as a daughter at all and more as a sex object.  Even worse, he's pimping her out to get what he wants, so he's actually even making her a whore.  

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting thinking, indeed.

TWOW can't come soon enough to show us the directions GRRM is taking all this!

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2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I don't see that as sharing the same values.  Again, she's not in a position to confront him, not without putting herself in harms way...  Everyone is drinking the sweetmilk here. What can she realistically do at this time in the face of that?  Play up the dutiful daughter to avoid getting groped as much as she can and try not to get beheaded.     

It's understandable why Sansa is in this untenable position; that does not exempt her, however, from responsibility for having entangled herself -- through her own commissions and omissions -- in the situation in which she now finds herself (owning responsibility is not the same thing as blame). I don't think, for example, that she was forced to tell a lie at the Trident, nor was she coerced in spilling her father's plans to Cersei, nor did she have to give false testimony about Lysa's death, regardless of how Petyr had prepped her.  So although her choices were numbered, she nevertheless still had the option of pursuing another course of action (admittedly risky), which she chose not to exercise, invariably preferring to side with power, wherever and in whomever she perceived it to be concentrated, however corrupt.  And, again, I agree with you; it's all perfectly understandable and rational -- she wanted to save her own skin by cleaving to the aggressor in each situation.  And to your question -- why does the victim stick with the abuser?  Because it's the relative 'safety' of the familiar.  

About 'shared values,' Sansa herself notes that the more one tells the shared lie the more one starts to believe it, or at least condone it, belying your compartmentalization theory, which presumes that there is an uncorrupted Sansa who will emerge in the end, setting all that aside as nothing more than a bad dream.  Choices transform the self.  Words powerfully distort reality.  There is more than enough evidence for GRRM's strong views in this matter -- have you read my 'killing word' thread? -- the adage 'words are wind' is meant ironically.  Wind can move ships across oceans; and windlessness, feared just as much by sailors, can stall them, both situations causing shipwrecks; that's why Euron is so keen to harness it to his will by sacrificing others.  Likewise, in her more modest fashion, Sansa's words or lack thereof have already contributed to a number of deaths -- including her direwolf bodyguard Lady, her father Ned, the singer Marillion, and if she carries on in this vein her cousin Robert (and maybe even herself, should she become a liability).  

These challenges notwithstanding, it's heartening as you highlight that Sansa is establishing some wider friendships, taking advantage of Littlefinger's absences.  Taking the chance of trusting (confiding the truth in) someone other, and more savoury, than her 'best friend' Petyr will be her exit route. Ultimately, I think she will emerge from her tormentor -- even after death, a small part of the wolf remains in the warg, which means Lady still lives within her!  I'm just not sure how many people will have to die, including family members, before she regains her bite.

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

Your assertion is that maesters are wholly responsible for training heirs, whether they want it or not and whether the Lord or Lady wants them trained or not, is, I think, unrealistic. Coleman seems no hero, but that doesn't make him a villain.

They aren't wholly responsible for parenting their charges.  If you are a good maester and you're not being allowed to do your job, the natural question is to ask "why am I not being allowed to perform my basic role here?"  "Why am I only called for when it's to drug this kid?"  If you are a good maester these things should disturb you.  No one had to tell Luwin what his job was when Bran was left as acting lord.  It's obvious what he's supposed to do.  Jump in there and be by Bran's side.  Help him make decisions and carry himself properly during the harvest feast, all while Bran was facing physical disabilities and the stares and prejudices that come with being a disabled person.  There's a lot of parallels between Bran and SR, we should also make comparisons between their respective maesters.  I'm not saying he's purposely a villain because he's a really bad guy.  I'm saying he's a bad maester because he's too much of a "go along to get along."  He's a "just following orders" kind of guy.  He doesn't like confrontation and so it's just easier to turn the other way when bad stuff is happening.  I'm saying many people give him wayyyyyyyyy too much credit in his competency and care for SR.

3 hours ago, zandru said:

I admit you may have something here. Although how "a pinch" is defined might be variable. Moreover, if Lysa had been going for the sweetsleep heavily enough to give substantial doses via breast milk, over the course of years, why didn't it have cumulative effects on her? (Not to mention Robert)

I like the imagery of Lysa as smelling sweet, due to her perfumes, but underneath is the sourness, the falsity of all her paints and powers. Don't forget, Lysa is significantly overweight, and actual "sweets" as opposed to drugs, are likely to cause that medical condition.

"Pinch" is the language George uses to convey what dosage does what effect.  From that, we're supposed to know what's normal and what isn't.  A few grains more or less between individuals is not going to make a big difference.  It's the fact he repeated the word pinch with the FM that is supposed to communicate directly to the reader.  He didn't change it to say a "sprinkle" or a "dash" which kinda gives is a variability.  Repetition of words matters.  

And there most certainly is a cumulative effect on Lysa.  She is noted to be the younger sister but she looks "10 years older."  She has to wear heavy make up.  He eyes are watery and always moving.

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It had been five years, in truth; five cruel years, for Lysa. They had taken their toll. Her sister was two years the younger, yet she looked older now. Shorter than Catelyn, Lysa had grown thick of body, pale and puffy of face. She had the blue eyes of the Tullys, but hers were pale and watery, never still. Her small mouth had turned petulant. As Catelyn held her, she remembered the slender, high-breasted girl who'd waited beside her that day in the sept at Riverrun. How lovely and full of hope she had been. All that remained of her sister's beauty was the great fall of thick auburn hair that cascaded to her waist.

 This isn't just some weight gain due to age or even affects from miscarriages.  Have you ever seen those before and after pictures of people that do crack or meth?  It can drastically change your appearance to look older and more haggard.  Her eyes tell a story.  Drug addicts can have a really crazy-eyed look, eyes that are always moving.  Then Sansa describes SR as having very similar flabby body with watery eyes:

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Robert had spindly arms and legs, a soft concave chest and little belly, and eyes that were always red and runny. 

All that is unaffected in both mother and son is their hair.  Sansa says Robert's hair is beautiful and long.

3 hours ago, zandru said:

I like the imagery of Lysa as smelling sweet, due to her perfumes, but underneath is the sourness, the falsity of all her paints and powers. 

Milk is powerful imagery that gets repeated in this arc.  She smells like "sour milk" under the sweet and smelling is a metaphor for intuition. SR seeks out Sansa's breasts for comfort after his mother dies.  Of course she can't nurse him.  He's seeking the milk because it gets him high.  Colemon conspicuously suggests breastmilk as a treatment option.  

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The maester combed his fingers through his hair, dribbling globs of porridge on the floor. "Lady Lysa would give his lordship her breast whenever he grew overwrought. Archmaester Ebrose claims that mother's milk has many heathful properties."

Hmmmmmm.  He doesn't put the sweetsleep in cakes as Petyr says.  He puts it in milk.  He wouldn't think to do that unless he had an prior association between sweetsleep and milk.  And he always had the access to the sweetsleep and he doles it out.  He knows.  And when Petyr suggests a "pinch" his first reaction isn't "Oh my Gods!  That's way too much for a boy his size.  He only needs a few grains!"

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"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . ."

"Yeah, I could try that."  He's totally unsuprised with that dosage.  And that swallowing hard there?  Oh now he knows that Petyr knows what he's been giving Lysa all that time.  He's a fucking lying liar face.  Petyr knew what he was really referring to with the breastmilk.  He knows exactly what the nature of SR's condition is and he tells no one because he's guilty too.  So when he tells Alayne "a pinch will calm him" he is deliberately giving her misinformation on the dosage.  He deserves that chamber pot being chucked at him.              

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