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Why does Littlefinger kiss Sansa after she builds a Snow Castle? It’s not for the reason most people think...


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18 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

~~~

And there most certainly is a cumulative effect on Lysa.  She is noted to be the younger sister but she looks "10 years older."  She has to wear heavy make up.  He eyes are watery and always moving.

 This isn't just some weight gain due to age or even affects from miscarriages.  Have you ever seen those before and after pictures of people that do crack or meth?  It can drastically change your appearance to look older and more haggard.  Her eyes tell a story.  Drug addicts can have a really crazy-eyed look, eyes that are always moving.  Then Sansa describes SR as having very similar flabby body with watery eyes:

All that is unaffected in both mother and son is their hair.  Sansa says Robert's hair is beautiful and long.

Milk is powerful imagery that gets repeated in this arc.  She smells like "sour milk" under the sweet and smelling is a metaphor for intuition. SR seeks out Sansa's breasts for comfort after his mother dies.  Of course she can't nurse him.  He's seeking the milk because it gets him high.  Colemon conspicuously suggests breastmilk as a treatment option.  

Hmmmmmm.  He doesn't put the sweetsleep in cakes as Petyr says.  He puts it in milk.  He wouldn't think to do that unless he had an prior association between sweetsleep and milk.  And he always had the access to the sweetsleep and he doles it out.  He knows.  And when Petyr suggests a "pinch" his first reaction isn't "Oh my Gods!  That's way too much for a boy his size.  He only needs a few grains!"

"Yeah, I could try that."  He's totally unsuprised with that dosage.  And that swallowing hard there?  Oh now he knows that Petyr knows what he's been giving Lysa all that time.  He's a fucking lying liar face.  Petyr knew what he was really referring to with the breastmilk.  He knows exactly what the nature of SR's condition is and he tells no one because he's guilty too.  So when he tells Alayne "a pinch will calm him" he is deliberately giving her misinformation on the dosage.  He deserves that chamber pot being chucked at him.              

I most definitely agree with this. I started to get my thoughts together on just this topic in another thread a few weeks back, here if you want to take a look.

That said, never trust a maester... yes, even dear old Luwin. They are the lowly pawns in the bigger game. The house maesters are just repeating what the upper echelons have taught them, and we know the Citadel is not keen on magics. I cannot wait for the next Samwell chapters!

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21 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 I'm saying he's a bad maester because he's too much of a "go along to get along."  He's a "just following orders" kind of guy.  He doesn't like confrontation and so it's just easier to turn the other way when bad stuff is happening.

Hmmm. Sounds a lot like Sansa.

And I'm still not convinced there's a family-wide sweetsleep epidemic going on at the Arryns. The flabbiness, pallor, old looks are easily obtained through sedentary living, too many banquets and lemon cakes, and not getting out much. Have you ever seen what Americans look like?

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5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That said, never trust a maester... yes, even dear old Luwin. They are the lowly pawns in the bigger game. The house maesters are just repeating what the upper echelons have taught them, and we know the Citadel is not keen on magics. I cannot wait for the next Samwell chapters!

This.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

And while he possibly didn't set up the "fateful kiss" with as much advance planning, I'd be very surprised if Littlefinger wasn't aware of Lysa watching them and what her reaction might be. On the other hand, he cut it a little too fine, "coming to the rescue" when he did

Yeah I don't believe that kiss was planned.  It was pure sicko gratification.  He did know Lysa was a powder keg and easily jealous.  It was only a matter of time before something happened.  He just swooped in and took advantage of the situation to further entrap Sansa.

15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

It's understandable why Sansa is in this untenable position; that does not exempt her, however, from responsibility for having entangled herself -- through her own commissions and omissions -- in the situation in which she now finds herself (owning responsibility is not the same thing as blame). I don't think, for example, that she was forced to tell a lie at the Trident, nor was she coerced in spilling her father's plans to Cersei,

I totally understand what you are saying and I too recognize Sansa's role in the Trident.  I'm just so wary of bringing up the Trident in a non-Trident thread because you know how that whole shitstorm can start.  Then suddenly the thread is locked with no progress made in discussion.  Owning responsibility is part of the maturation process and becoming an adult, which is definitely what I want to see from her.

20 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

nor did she have to give false testimony about Lysa's death, regardless of how Petyr had prepped her.  So although her choices were numbered, she nevertheless still had the option of pursuing another course of action (admittedly risky), which she chose not to exercise, invariably preferring to side with power, wherever and in whomever she perceived it to be concentrated, however corrupt.  And, again, I agree with you; it's all perfectly understandable and rational -- she wanted to save her own skin by cleaving to the aggressor in each situation.  And to your question -- why does the victim stick with the abuser?  Because it's the relative 'safety' of the familiar.

Well, I think she was certainly tricked into giving testimony that would incriminate her.  Petyr told her Nestor would want to hear her version and that she should tell him what she told SR:  that Marillion killed her.  What Petyr told the guards when they entered the room.  Obviously, Lysa trying to murder her and Marillion almost raping her helped make it go down easier.  But Petyr is ultimately pressuring her to protect him, her savior.  He's not relying on her gratitude to protect him though.  He still sees she has a conscience about it.  Lysa and Marillion weren't actually punished for the things they really did.  So he makes her testify first to publicly testify she was present in the room.  Then Marillion testifies implying he and Lysa were alone.  The truth of the matter is that Nestor Royce and Belmore have no real interest in the truth.  They kinda know what bullshit this is, but Petyr made it sound like they cared about Lysa.  They hate Marillion.  His confession makes everything and easy open and shut case, so they can get on to the business of collecting their benefits from siding with Petyr.  They never needed or really wanted her testimony to begin with.  It was all an insurance policy to make sure Sansa implicates herself so she can't ever reveal the truth -- it's mutually assured destruction.  

I need to kinda say that I very much relate to what the effects of being in an abusive relationship can be on the victim's line of thinking.  My situation wasn't sexual abuse, but the tactics are very much the same.  Abusers thrive on making the victim feel ashamed and responsible to keep them trapped.  They make them doubt their own perceptions of reality.  They purposely create complicated and even opposing feelings about the abuser in the victim so the victim can never pin down who the abuser really is.  It's all a smoke and mirrors to keep the abuse going.  Then on the other hand, you get the judgement of people not in the situation criticizing the victim for being so stupid, being weak, allowing this to happen, or that they must have wanted this to happen.  To this day I do not openly discuss details of what happened with very many people because of judgement and embarrassment because I know people will look at me differently.  I don't absolve Sansa of her role in AGOT, but the Vale situation feels like a whole other animal because it's a different flavor of abuse than in KL.  It's so much more of a mind fuck and I was much older than Sansa in the books.  There were moments I defended my abuser and totally rationalized their behavior without any hesitation in my thinking.  It's soooooo fucked up what that does to a person.

44 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

About 'shared values,' Sansa herself notes that the more one tells the shared lie the more one starts to believe it, or at least condone it, belying your compartmentalization theory, which presumes that there is an uncorrupted Sansa who will emerge in the end, setting all that aside as nothing more than a bad dream.

I don't believe that it's compartmentalized at all.  No one could live through that and not feel dirty.  I don't think she will be corrupted in the sense of becoming like him, but he stole a large chunk of her innocence.  This will stay a part of her for the rest of the series.  I think she does need a way out to happen first, a break to get her free enough to effectively confront him.  Narratively I think that is key.  The moment of confrontation should feel like it means something, that something will change because of it.  After all, GRRM chose her of all characters to be the one that deals with him.  Somewhere in her is "right stuff" to dismantle his power.  I think moving forward she will have more clarity on how things came to be between her and Petyr so the cycle can break -- that includes facing the aspects of herself that made her vulnerable to being taken advantage of.  I think she is facing some of her negative aspects.  SR is almost like a condensed and extreme version of her elitism, class consciousness, stubborn refusal to accept reality, aversion to unpleasantness, inclination toward fantasy.  And she's faced with parenting him, so in a way she's parenting her younger self.    

I will definitely check out your killing word thread!

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

These challenges notwithstanding, it's heartening as you highlight that Sansa is establishing some wider friendships, taking advantage of Littlefinger's absences.  Taking the chance of trusting (confiding the truth in) someone other, and more savoury, than her 'best friend' Petyr will be her exit route. Ultimately, I think she will emerge from her tormentor -- even after death, a small part of the wolf remains in the warg, which means Lady still lives within her!  I'm just not sure how many people will have to die, including family members, before she regains her bite.

Well I am glad that George has finally gotten around to giving Sansa some female peers to be friends with.  He hasn't been very good at writing relationships between women, imo.  She's always been a character that female friendships are important to her, so I take this a positive sign something is going to break in TWOW.                 

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A number of the early posts on this thread put in mind a comparison: What if Sweetrobin is the equivalent of Viserys, Alayne is Dany and Harry the Heir is fAegon? Littlefinger wants Harry and Alayne to rule, so he plans for the eventual death of Sweetrobin.

Does that mean Littlefinger is the equivalent of Ilyrio?

Is the sweetsleep the same thing as the molten gold crown? If so, does that make Maester Colemon, who administers the poison, the stand-in for Khal Drogo?

Who would be Ser Jorah, in this scenario, if anyone? In the Dany arc, he is the one who plants the unwelcome kiss on the central character. Is there a little bit of Ser Jorah in Littlefinger? Ser Jorah saves Dany's life, and Sansa believes that Littlefinger saves her life. But Ser Jorah initially spied on Dany. Maybe this is similar to Littlefinger setting up Sansa in the murder of Joffrey.

In determining whether the kiss by Littlefinger was premeditated or spontaneous, it might be worthwhile to re-read the chapter where Dany eats the stallion's heart, Viserys gets drunk and threatens her and her baby, and then Khal Drogo pours the melted gold "crown" over Viserys' head. Dany has been trying to help Viserys up to this point - offering clothes suitable for riding in the desert, trying to prevent the Dothraki from putting him in situations where he will appear ridiculous, doing anything she can to avoid "waking the dragon". But she finally gives up when he threatens her and her child, allowing the execution to go forward. Of course, one twist in the parallel story (if the comparison is correct) is that Lysa Arryn is the one who threatens Sansa and dies, not Sweetrobin. I guess that means that Petyr is in the role of Khal Drogo at that point. That probably tends to support the idea that the kiss of Sansa by Petyr was intentional but inspired by genuine passion, as if a husband were kissing a wife or as if love-crazed Ser Jorah were kissing Dany.

I've tried to look at a bunch of these parallel storylines. Aside from twists, GRRM might reverse an outcome altogeher: instead of "Viserys" (Sweetrobin) dying, I suspect we will see Harry the Heir die in this Sansa-related part of the plot.

 

14 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

(for a little while, I wonder if Littlefinger will die eating a lemoncake/lemon pie, and if the following quote could foreshadow the killing power of lemoncakes  : 

"The m-maesters think not," Sam stammered. "The maesters say it comes from the fires of the earth. They call it obsidian."
Mormont snorted. "They can call it lemon pie for all I care. If it kills as you claim, I want more of it."
 
Samwell II ASOS

Oh how I love your eye for detail. And the way your mind puts things together. This is terrific!

This morning I wrote up an observation about a possible parallel between Petyr Baelish, in his duel with Brandon Stark, and the Other who battles Ser Waymar in the AGoT prologue. If the comparison of Baelish and the Other is correct, then this quote comparing lemon pie and obsidian - deadly for Others, white walkers and wights - would tend to support the theory that Petyr Baelish will be killed with a lemon pie. 

(A comparison between Petyr and the Others might also explain why Baelish finds Sansa irresistable when she is covered with snow. Some like it hot; some like it cold. . . . )

You win the forum this week, my friend. I love this prediction!

14 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Now THAT would be interesting- a twist on the Purple Wedding?

Wouldn't that be appropriate! I so hope this comes true. Kof kof the pie!

@Blue-Eyed Wolf I am so glad that you have worked out a lot of the milk and dairy imagery. There is so much of it, and it will really help to clarify the ways the author uses it. I like your idea of the poison coming to Sweetrobin through his mother's breast milk. I looked at the trip down the mountain a few weeks ago (alongside Jon's climb up a mountain with Stonesnake, and some consideration of Missy's Teats / Barbara's Teats, the hills named and renamed after Aegon's mistresses). There is a lot about breast milk in those scenes, with the mountains compared to a mother's breasts and Sweetrobin nuzzling Sansa's breasts, as you noted. But I think the clear connection of mountains = breasts is not enough. I'd love to figure out how wet nurses and families like Darry (= dairy) and Butterwell fit into the motif. Sandor Clegane says that the Starks use direwolves as wetnurses. And then there is Gilly . . . But I guess that is a subject for another thread.

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1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

After all, GRRM chose [Sansa] of all characters to be the one that deals with [Littlefinger].  Somewhere in her is "right stuff" to dismantle his power.

Or not. This, honestly, sounds like a standard cliche Hollywood ending. That said, we can probably look forward to seeing it done that way on "Game of Thrones".

But somehow, I think George RR will be more subversive. (I also hope we find out, within the year.)

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18 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Lysa must have returned to stand on the balcony for a few minutes before the kiss happened, giving Sansa and Littlefinger both ample time to see her. Or else the line ("You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now.) wouldn't make sense.

That's because its the balcony to Lysa's chambers. There is no proof that she was there when it happened, our POV didn't see it so you just want to believe it is so since you think that was part of his part of his plan. Which it clearly wasn't he needed Lysa around even if he didn't want her.

20 hours ago, winter daughter said:

He doesn't love Sansa. but he has mixed feelings about her.

"Sometimes he sees Sansa and she’s the daughter he never had,The daughter that he might have had with Cat…But at other times, he detaches himself from that and he’s less Petyr and more Littlefinger and she’s just another piece in the game of thrones…Yet, other times, she’s not Cat’s daughter, she’s like young Cat. She’s his teenage fantasies returned again and Then his feelings to her are sexual and romantic, and those feelings overcome him at the moment when he sees Sansa, so beautiful in the snow building a snow castle, Winterfell. it reminds him very much of the young cat and he reacts to that by kissing her and unfortunately Lysa sees that which is not something she wanted to see.”

Certainly mixed.

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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I most definitely agree with this. I started to get my thoughts together on just this topic in another thread a few weeks back, here if you want to take a look.

That said, never trust a maester... yes, even dear old Luwin. They are the lowly pawns in the bigger game. The house maesters are just repeating what the upper echelons have taught them, and we know the Citadel is not keen on magics. I cannot wait for the next Samwell chapters!

Those effing gray rats!!!!  :lol:  Yeah I will definitely check that out.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

And I'm still not convinced there's a family-wide sweetsleep epidemic going on at the Arryns. The flabbiness, pallor, old looks are easily obtained through sedentary living, too many banquets and lemon cakes, and not getting out much. Have you ever seen what Americans look like?

Not only am I an American, I live in central Florida.  Anything stupid or embarrassing in this country that gets reported on the news always starts with "A Florida man..."  Yeah people are way obese here, but I also tell you it's pill and meth head central.  Lots of senior citizens addicted to painkillers too.  Overeating doesn't account for all her symptoms that she shares with her son.  She's still way too young to be in such poor condition by eating habits alone.  Milk is repeatedly pointed to in this arc.  Her image is also highly evocative of a weirwood tree.  There are references to her "limbs" and her pale skin with with red-tipped nipple that Sweetrobin nurses from and of course her kissed-by-fire hair.  Sweetrobin has a crazy amount of greenseer symbolism around him that we're supposed to think of something being transferred to him while he nurses.  It's very much like the weirwood paste bran consumes to induce a vision.  

4 hours ago, Seams said:

A number of the early posts on this thread put in mind a comparison: What if Sweetrobin is the equivalent of Viserys, Alayne is Dany and Harry the Heir is fAegon? Littlefinger wants Harry and Alayne to rule, so he plans for the eventual death of Sweetrobin.

This is interesting!  I had read before this scene is like the off the rails version of Ned, Cat. and Jon Snow.  Ironically LF playing Ned, Lysa playing Cat, and Sansa playing Jon, but also the stand-in for the mystery woman that is Jon's mother.  Cat was convinced that Ned deep down had loved this mystery woman which is why he'd never speak of her.  While that isn't actually true of the real Ned, LF playing Ned actually "loved" (:bs:) "only Cat."  It's like the real Catelyn's worst paranoid nightmare played out in the Eyrie with the mystery woman replacing her after it's confirmed she's her husband's true love.  Hmmmmm... you are giving me food for thought though about HtH and (f)Aegon.  Brought to mind these quotes:

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The Winged Knight was Ser Artys Arryn. Legend said that he had driven the First Men from the Vale and flown to the top of the Giant's Lance on a huge falcon to slay the Griffin King. There were a hundred tales of his adventures. Little Robert knew them all so well he could have recited them from memory, but he liked to have them read to him all the same.

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Robert had never learned to ride properly, she knew. Mules, horses, donkeys, it made no matter; to him they were all fearsome beasts, as terrifying as dragons or griffins. He had been brought to the Vale at six, riding with his head cradled between his mother's milky breasts, and had never left the Eyrie since.

Griffins and dragons!  :ph34r:   And while we're here more boobs and milk!

4 hours ago, Seams said:

This morning I wrote up an observation about a possible parallel between Petyr Baelish, in his duel with Brandon Stark, and the Other who battles Ser Waymar in the AGoT prologue. If the comparison of Baelish and the Other is correct, then this quote comparing lemon pie and obsidian - deadly for Others, white walkers and wights - would tend to support the theory that Petyr Baelish will be killed with a lemon pie. 

(A comparison between Petyr and the Others might also explain why Baelish finds Sansa irresistable when she is covered with snow. Some like it hot; some like it cold. . . . )

Ah crap!  I can't believe I miss this from @GloubieBoulga.  Apologies!  That is really good!

4 hours ago, Seams said:

at the trip down the mountain a few weeks ago (alongside Jon's climb up a mountain with Stonesnake, and some consideration of Missy's Teats / Barbara's Teats, the hills named and renamed after Aegon's mistresses). There is a lot about breast milk in those scenes, with the mountains compared to a mother's breasts and Sweetrobin nuzzling Sansa's breasts, as you noted. But I think the clear connection of mountains = breasts is not enough. I'd love to figure out how wet nurses and families like Darry (= dairy) and Butterwell fit into the motif. Sandor Clegane says that the Starks use direwolves as wetnurses. And then there is Gilly . . . But I guess that is a subject for another thread.

Even more food for thought!  And Myranda has a conversation about breasts and milk with Sansa:

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She studied Alayne's face and chest. "You are prettier than me, but my breasts are larger. The maesters say large breasts produce no more milk than small ones, but I do not believe it. Have you ever known a wet nurse with small teats? Yours are ample for a girl your age, but as they are bastard breasts, I shan't concern myself with them." 

  Sansa is well developed for a girl her age, so Myranda is basically saying she has the breasts of a wet nurse.  @The Fattest Leech  See, Myranda has it right!  She doesn't believe the maesters!  Wet nurses are substitutes for the mother's breast.  Of course, Sansa doesn't have milk, but Robert isn't a mammal -- he's a falcon.  He kinda looks and sounds like a baby bird, all scrawny, featherless, crying and demanding for food.  Sansa can't "feed" him by nursing, but she "feeds" him like a baby bird.  From her mouth to his:  Calling him brave, calling him the Winged Knight.  Then Robert thinks of himself as Artys Arryn:

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"My lord is brave," Alayne said, when she felt him shaking. "I'm so frightened I can hardly talk, but not you."
She felt him nod. "The Winged Knight was brave, and so am I," he boasted to her bodice. "I'm an Arryn."

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"Not you. You're my winged knight, Ser Sweetrobin."
"The Winged Knight could fly," Robert whispered.
"Higher than the mountains." She gave his hand a squeeze.

Lady Myranda had joined them by the spire. "He could," she echoed, when she saw what was happening.

"Ser Sweetrobin," Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them.  All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

The original mother's milk left him malnourished and withering away.  So he's getting the nourishment he actually needs from the wet nurse Sansa who is also a direwolf wet nurse, as Sandor Clegane put it.  This scene with the cloaks flapping in the open air is like the first flight of a baby bird from the nest.  You're right, there's probably a whole other thread worth exploring this with the mountain connection which is there in that quote too.  And hey, this makes Petyr's statements about wet nurses highly ironic :

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"Is that your counsel, maester? That we find a wet nurse for the Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale? When shall we wean him, on his wedding day? That way he can move directly from his nurse's nipples to his wife's." Lord Petyr's laugh made it plain what he thought of that. 

:lmao:Yeah, Petyr.  Exactly.  It's a wet nurse that he needs.  Petyr says alot of things I'm sure he's going to regret saying later.  "I thrive in chaos."  Oh that's just begging for more chaos than he can handle being thrown at him.

There's also the mountain clan called the Milk Snakes.  To "milk" a snake is to extract it's venom from it's fangs.  That's probably another toxic milk motif.  But they also milk snakes for the purpose of making antivenom.  The cure is in the "milk" too.     

  

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15 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

(for a little while, I wonder if Littlefinger will die eating a lemoncake/lemon pie, and if the following quote could foreshadow the killing power of lemoncakes

My people have a saying: if you live by the lemoncake you die by the lemoncake.

 

7 hours ago, zandru said:

We need to consider how overprotective Lysa was. Maybe she refused to let the maester train little Robbie - after all, his health was SOOOO delicate. Maybe little Robbie threw tantrums - and chamberpots and food - when told it was time for lessons, so he was excused. Maybe little Bob declared, as Warden of the Vale he didn't need any lessons. He claimed Right of Commannd even when mother Lysa was alive; there would be no check on him after her death.

Don't put everything on Coleman - he serves at the sufference of Lady Lysa. And if she won't let him into closed door meetings, how is that Coleman's fault? Moreover, how much "fuss" is a person likely to make, in a place where the cells only have three walls and a 600 foot drop, downramp?

I'm also not convinced by the proposition that Robbie Arryn was hooked on sweetsleep. A craving for sweet is pretty much human nature, whether it's sugar, honey, corn sweeteners, "sugar of lead" - or sweetsleep. The more you have, the more you want.

I may have missed this in a very interesting discussion (thanks, everyone!), but did Robert Arryn FIRST start being dosed with sweetsleep once Littlefinger came to the Aerrie - or was it longer term? I think the answer is significant. And, I can't help but note the similarities with Tywin Lannister, recalling one Small Council meeting where Joffrey got too bloodthirstily obstreperous, and Tywin calmly ordered him taken out, put to bed and dosed with a sleeping agent.

I agree. Lysa insane levels of overprotection is why Sweetrobin is in the sad stay he is. Poor kid.

Also I have a very interesting notion on how Sweetrobin has his incredible tolerance to sweetsleep. I think Lysa might have had sleeping problems and I think Baelish was going to have her secretly kill herself with sweetsleep in a similar vein that he is doing with Sweetrobin. Indeed Cat's first notices it when she meets her sister in GOT.

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"You look well," Catelyn lied, "but … tired."
 
Her sister broke the embrace. "Tired. Yes. Oh, yes." She seemed to notice the others then; her maid, Maester Colemon, Ser Vardis. "Leave us," she told them. "I wish to speak to my sister alone." She held Catelyn's hand as they withdrew …

I figured if Baelish had been getting Lysa to use Sweetsleep to help her sleep Sweetrobin might have also gotten some from continually breastfreeding from her. It would help explain why he is so resistant to its effects as laid out by the Waif.

 

6 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Er, no:

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Sansa saw Lady Lysa gazing down from her balcony, wrapped up in a blue velvet robe trimmed with fox fur, but when she looked again her aunt was gone. 

There is no subsequent indication that Lysa returned, which would have been noted by Sansa.  She just instinctively looked up to where Lysa had been earlier.  Likewise, if Sansa was aware that Lysa had been present, she wouldn't have been so stunned when Lysa subsequently accused Sansa of kissing Baelish.

The idea that Littlefinger deliberately kissed Sansa to provoke Lysa doesn't make any sense from his perspective, either.  He was absolutely planning to be rid of Lysa eventually, but there were any number of smoother ways to go about that.

Moreover, that interpretation makes Littlefinger a far less interesting character, as it's far more compelling if he has actual weaknesses.

Thank you.

6 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

So he's tricked Sansa into publicly testifying that she was in the room when the murder happened.  Marillion on the other hand is instructed to make it sound like he and Lysa were alone.  If Marillion's testimony came first she might have caught this.  The singer is a widely reviled guy for Lysa's favoritism.  Belmore and Albar and Nestor Royce hate him.  They would have been satisfied with his "confession" and had him executed no problem.  Alayne's testimony was never necessary to the case, but Petyr set it up so by her own admission she was present.  If LF were ever exposed as the killer, Sansa by her own unwitting admission was there and a part of convicting an "innocent" man.  Looks really bad and he's boxed her in even more.  So she's not on board with him because she's okay with any of this, she just has no good options available.  

Well she was in the room, as the two guardsman that were outside the room could have clearly testified to. If Sansa had pretended she wasn't there it would have looked far more damning. Also Marillion was literally the perfect fall guy. Makes you wonder why Martin hates bards.

 

 

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@Houseofthedirewolves

Nice thoughts. I really like your analysis. :D 

@Lord Wraith

I'm not sure if LF could have known Lysa was watching, but it is possible. Perhaps Lysa, being batshit insane at that point, was simply always spying LF in the Eyrie 24/7, and so LF simply correctly assumed she would be watching if he wandered outside to hang out with Sansa. This behavior would certainly fit Lysa's character. More than anything else in the world, she is paranoid about LF being in love with another woman, which is exactly what happened in her childhood with Cat. So it wouldn't surprise me if Lysa was constantly sneaking around the Eyrie spying on LF to ensure he loved only her, and LF would probably catch on quickly. And really, we should ask the question, why was Lysa watching them at that moment. Spying on LF is the most likely answer it seems to me.

Now, other people have mentioned how this was ostensibly bad timing for killing Lysa. But I'm not so sure. Yes, with his original plan/timeline this may have been true. But LF says something quite odd to Sansa in AFFC:

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He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

How could LF possibly anticipate that Cersei would beggar the realm? Don't get me wrong, Cersei is a terrible ruler, and it is easy to predict she could screw everything up. Except that no one had any particular reason to believe that Cersei would ever rule in KL. Tywin was the person in charge. In fact, Tywin was charge, right up until just before LF killed Lysa.

So I think that statement from LF may have been half a lie. I think he may have told the truth about hoping to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds (this may even be GRRM making a funny meta allusion to the abandoned 5-year gap), but he shouldn't have been expecting Cersei to be in charge during that time. It may be the case that LF received the news of Tywin's death and decided that his timeline needed to be drastically moved forward, thus he killed Lysa when he did. I believe this is technically possible (enough time between Tywin's death and Lysa's for a raven to get to the Eyrie) but if someone knows for sure that would be nice to know.

And really, LF's plan appears to be progressing exactly how he wants so far, so obviously his timing of killing Lysa couldn't have been that bad.

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1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:
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He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

How could LF possibly anticipate that Cersei would beggar the realm? Don't get me wrong, Cersei is a terrible ruler, and it is easy to predict she could screw everything up. Except that no one had any particular reason to believe that Cersei would ever rule in KL. Tywin was the person in charge. In fact, Tywin was charge, right up until just before LF killed Lysa.

So I think that statement from LF may have been half a lie. I think he may have told the truth about hoping to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds (this may even be GRRM making a funny meta allusion to the abandoned 5-year gap), but he shouldn't have been expecting Cersei to be in charge during that time. It may be the case that LF received the news of Tywin's death and decided that his timeline needed to be drastically moved forward, thus he killed Lysa when he did. I believe this is technically possible (enough time between Tywin's death and Lysa's for a raven to get to the Eyrie) but if someone knows for sure that would be nice to know.

And really, LF's plan appears to be progressing exactly how he wants so far, so obviously his timing of killing Lysa couldn't have been that bad.

I don't think it was a lie. I know it was a wink from GRRM at the five year gap going but I think Baelish was ready to settle for a bit and see how everyone thing else played itself out before helping the winning side with the Vale army. Baelish isn't the chaos monger so many people want to think he is. Chaos has its uses no doubt but its not the only tool in his arsenal.

Barring my crackpot notions that Baelish is working with the Martell brothers in some capacity or somehow knew of their plans. I believe that Oberyn did poision Tywin, which leaves power mad Cersei in charge. Also I would need to look at the timelines to see when Tywin died vs Baelish being in the Eyrie. He might have just heard about his death leading to his thoughts on Cersei and the realm. Also I am vary certainly only Baelish can keep the many balls that is the Iron Throne debt in the air. That is going to lead to things worsening sooner than later. Explains why the Iron Bank is willing to talk with Stannis.

At the very least I am sure he knew something of Varys plans to weaken the realm. Martin recently said in an interview that Baelish knows more about Varys plans than Varys does about Baelish's, which backs up his conversation with Illyrio in GOT.

Lysa being alive helps keep the Vale lords in line. I certainly think he would have had her killed eventually but so soon throws a monkey wrench in his plans. Luckily he is quite adaptable which is part of the reason why he keeps coming out on top.

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26 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Well she was in the room, as the two guardsman that were outside the room could have clearly testified to. If Sansa had pretended she wasn't there it would have looked far more damning. Also Marillion was literally the perfect fall guy. Makes you wonder why Martin hates bards.

Yes she was in the room, but she is changing who killed Lysa at Petyr's urging that she needs to do that because Nestor will want to hear her testimony.  That's not actually true.  He actually hints that Nestor is already on his side when he's urging Sansa to testify.  

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"What if Lord Nestor values honor more than profit?" Petyr put his arm around her. "What if it is truth he wants, and justice for his murdered lady?" He smiled. "I know Lord Nestor, sweetling. Do you imagine I'd ever let him harm my daughter?"
I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell. She did not say it, though. If not for Petyr Baelish it would have been Sansa who went spinning through a cold blue sky to stony death six hundred feet below, instead of Lysa Arryn. He is so bold. Sansa wished she had his courage. She wanted to crawl back into bed and hide beneath her blanket, to sleep and sleep. She had not slept a whole night through since Lysa Arryn's death. "Couldn't you tell Lord Nestor that I am . . . indisposed, or . . ."
"He will want to hear your account of Lysa's death."

This passage proves her testimony was a set up.  Sansa doesn't want to testify at all.  She's clearly shaken and disturbed by the whole thing.  She's ripe for a crisis of conscience that might have her blabbing later.  He can't have that.  He's got to lock her down.

No one was asking the guards either, because no one was actually that interested in seeking justice for Lysa.  By that time the household guards were captained by Lothor Brune and Petyr says specifically to Sansa to open the doors and let "my guards" in.  The guards are in Petyr's pocket, but again no one is going to ask them anyway.  Not Belmore, Nestor or Albar.  The "investigation" is a total farce.  A formality to give the veil of legitimately solving the crime and wrapping it up quickly.  

What happens right after Marillion is hauled back to the skycells?  Nestor goes drinking the Arbor Gold and gets his title to the Gates of the Moon.  Everyone's scratching each other's backs here.  They hated Marillion for his songs that mocked them.  Called Belmore Ser Ding Dong and compared Royce and Albar to pigs rooting around a falcon's leavings.  (Not inaccurate assessments).  He was the perfect scapegoat and he was instructed to say that he was alone with Lysa.  Why wasn't he told to be consistent with Sansa's story?  Because it was irrelevant.  No one needed her testimony to convict the singer.  Or why didn't he testify first?  Because Sansa might have caught the absence of her mention in the "confession."  LF made her testify first and for no reason at all except to trick her into implicating herself to guarantee she won't tell the truth later. It would look bad if she did.  Not that she wasn't truthfully in the room, but that it would look like she helped convict an "innocent" man.  It would also make it look like sorta kinslaying on her part for being involved in a stepmother's death.           

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@Lord Wraith

I am slightly confused by your response. Do you think LF did in fact anticipate that Tywin would die and Cersei would be in charge? I also subscribe to the idea that Oberyn poisoned Tywin. And Varys may have planned on killing Tywin regardless. Do you think LF simply knew of the plans of either Oberyn or Varys?

EDIT: Or did he mayhaps plan on having Tywin killed himself?

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1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

That's because its the balcony to Lysa's chambers. There is no proof that she was there when it happened, our POV didn't see it so you just want to believe it is so since you think that was part of his part of his plan. Which it clearly wasn't he needed Lysa around even if he didn't want her.

Certainly mixed.

What bigger proof is needed than Lysa saying that she WITNESSED the kiss? "I saw what you did," the Lady Lysa said.  Is everyone just going to ignore that because they want to maintain the belief that Lysa didn't return to the balcony? I doubt she would have seen the kiss if she did not return.

People either swear up and down that Lysa didn't return to the balcony even though Lysa's own words tell us otherwise, or they seem to believe that Lysa flew to the balcony in the seconds that it took the kiss to happen and then flew back out without being seen.

Lysa returned and Sansa saw her which is why she looked to the balcony and said "You're supposed to kiss her," with the belief that Lysa was still there ONLY to realize that Lysa was gone again.

Also GRRM'S wording. He doesn't just write things for fancy. I don't think he would write Sansa noticing Lysa leave the first time ( Sansa saw Lady Lysa gazing down from her balcony, wrapped up in a blue velvet robe trimmed with fox fur, but when she looked again her aunt was gone.)  just to later write this line ("You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now.) as if Sansa is just noticing Lysa's absence unless this implies a more recent exit by Lysa. 

 "Empty now" implies a recent occurrence.  As in Lysa recently left and Sansa is just noticing. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

@Lord Wraith

I am slightly confused by your response. Do you think LF did in fact anticipate that Tywin would die and Cersei would be in charge? I also subscribe to the idea that Oberyn poisoned Tywin. And Varys may have planned on killing Tywin regardless. Do you think LF simply knew of the plans of either Oberyn or Varys?

EDIT: Or did he mayhaps plan on having Tywin killed himself?

I have no proof that he knew. Both Baelish and Doran have connections in Braavos, but that is still a leap. Doran would be looking for people to help bring down the Lannister/Baratheon regime and Baelish would have been the ideal inside man. Considering he is seemingly "friends" with most of the major players I don't think its that much of a stretch. He might have suspected Varys would kill Tywin, then again some people think Varys used reverse psychology on Tyrion to send him up to the tower of the hand so maybe he did.

Still Baelish and Doran do seem to be using the same playbook. Both have kept their kingdoms and armies out of the war until their enemies weaken themselves with infighting. Now the smaller numbers of the Vale and Dorne will be far more valuable after everyone else has exhausted themselves.

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53 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I have no proof that he knew. Both Baelish and Doran have connections in Braavos, but that is still a leap. Doran would be looking for people to help bring down the Lannister/Baratheon regime and Baelish would have been the ideal inside man. Considering he is seemingly "friends" with most of the major players I don't think its that much of a stretch. He might have suspected Varys would kill Tywin, then again some people think Varys used reverse psychology on Tyrion to send him up to the tower of the hand so maybe he did.

Still Baelish and Doran do seem to be using the same playbook. Both have kept their kingdoms and armies out of the war until their enemies weaken themselves with infighting. Now the smaller numbers of the Vale and Dorne will be far more valuable after everyone else has exhausted themselves.

OK, cool. :) 

I agree it wouldn't be a stretch for LF to be working with Doran. This would actually fit nicely with the idea that Qyburn is working for Doran (which I definitely think is the case), because Qyburn arrives in KL shortly after LF leaves, basically replacing him as Doran's spy. And their actions so far seem to have played rather well into each other's plans. It certainly doesn't appear necessary for them to have cooperated so far, but off the top of my head we lack evidence to rule it out, i.e. examples of actions that hurt the other's plans.

As for Tyrion killing Tywin, I do think Varys used reverse psychology on Tyrion. But more than that, I think Varys manipulated the entire situation from the beginning. Here's what I think went down (not in chronological order):

  • Varys knew Tywin was poisoned and dying, and he specifically knew Tywin would be incapacitated and poison-constipated on the privy that night, making him vulnerable for assassination
  • Varys brought Shae to Tywin, as he had always been the one responsible for bringing Tywin his whores. In fact, Shae was probably working for Varys the entire time, and she may have even been sleeping with Tywin before she met Tyrion
  • Varys knew Jaime was waiting in his chambers (his little birds probably told him) and feigned protest at the demand to release Tyrion. Varys certainly could have carried out the same plan without Jaime if for some reason Jaime didn't decide to "rescue" Tyrion 
  • Varys made sure there was a chest conveniently placed beneath the crossbow hanging on the wall for Tyrion to use
  • Varys told Shae to tell Tyrion about the dragon mosaic below the Tower of the Hand just in case of such a situation occurring
  • Varys left the entire escape tunnel dark except the dragon mosaic and knew Tyrion would remember Shae's comment
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23 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

OK, cool. :) 

I agree it wouldn't be a stretch for LF to be working with Doran. This would actually fit nicely with the idea that Qyburn is working for Doran (which I definitely think is the case), because Qyburn arrives in KL shortly after LF leaves, basically replacing him as Doran's spy. And their actions so far seem to have played rather well into each other's plans. It certainly doesn't appear necessary for them to have cooperated so far, but off the top of my head we lack evidence to rule it out, i.e. examples of actions that hurt the other's plans.

As for Tyrion killing Tywin, I do think Varys used reverse psychology on Tyrion. But more than that, I think Varys manipulated the entire situation from the beginning. Here's what I think went down (not in chronological order):

  • Varys knew Tywin was poisoned and dying, and he specifically knew Tywin would be incapacitated and poison-constipated on the privy that night, making him vulnerable for assassination
  • Varys brought Shae to Tywin, as he had always been the one responsible for bringing Tywin his whores. In fact, Shae was probably working for Varys the entire time, and she may have even been sleeping with Tywin before she met Tyrion
  • Varys knew Jaime was waiting in his chambers (his little birds probably told him) and feigned protest at the demand to release Tyrion. Varys certainly could have carried out the same plan without Jaime if for some reason Jaime didn't decide to "rescue" Tyrion 
  • Varys made sure there was a chest conveniently placed beneath the crossbow hanging on the wall for Tyrion to use
  • Varys told Shae to tell Tyrion about the dragon mosaic below the Tower of the Hand just in case of such a situation occurring
  • Varys left the entire escape tunnel dark except the dragon mosaic and knew Tyrion would remember Shae's comment

Other than the fact I think Shae worked for Baelish (also Bronn) I can see this making a lot of sense.

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26 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Other than the fact I think Shae worked for Baelish (also Bronn) I can see this making a lot of sense.

I also think Bronn was working for Varys. It definitely makes sense at least that they would be working for the same person, because Bronn is the one who introduced Shae to Tyrion in the first place.

Yoren is almost certainly working for Varys. In addition to being an ideal spy, Varys knew about Tyrion's abduction before Ned did, which means Yoren must have gone to Varys first. And Yoren is the one who brought Tyrion to the inn where Bronn was, who could have received word that Yoren and Tyrion would be on their way south and been waiting at the inn for Tyrion to arrive and try to attach himself to Tyrion, which he did end up doing.

So I think all 3 work for Varys, but I could see them also being on LF's payroll, or some sort of similar situation.

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9 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

... He trusts her enough to leave the Eyrie for an extended period of time.  She's had more freedom to create relationships with other people when she was totally isolated before....

       

  

Uf. A friendship with our saucy Myranda does NOT bode well for Sansa. Not at all. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

...Well I am glad that George has finally gotten around to giving Sansa some female peers to be friends with.  He hasn't been very good at writing relationships between women, imo.  She's always been a character that female friendships are important to her, so I take this a positive sign something is going to break in TWOW.                 

Sansa's friends important to her?

Dunno.

Here's Sansa on the subject of her friend Jeyne, whilst dressing for her appeal to Cersei:

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She chose a simple dress of dark grey wool, plainly cut but richly embroidered around the collar and sleeves. Her fingers felt thick and clumsy as she struggled with the silver fastenings without the benefit of servants. Jeyne Poole had been confined with her, but Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to stop sobbing about her father.

And after that harrowing afternoon signing letters asking her family to come to KL and submit to Joffrey

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Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully. Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she'd built a fire. She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother's queen.

Both quotations from A Game of Thrones - Sansa IV

 

I'll confess that I see Sansa as a type of Scarlett O'Hara.

Yes, it's shallow of me, but there you are.

So I can't help wondering just how important other women are to her.

Of course, that my own take and I'm more than interested to read others' opinions!

 

 

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My people have a saying: if you live by the lemoncake you die by the lemoncake.

Nice one, @Lord Wraith

 

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