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UK Politics: Post-May Edition


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British Rail developed the world's first tilting train – The Advanced Passenger Train (APT). The object of the tilt was to minimise the discomfort to passengers caused by taking curves.  The APT also included hydrokinetic brakes, which enabled the train to stop from 150 mph within existing signal spacings.

The APT-E first ran on 25 July 1971.

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2 hours ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

The rolling stock in the 70s included more cutting edge stock compared to now, Britain's rail system now is derided unilaterally around the world.  I have never heard in my life an argument saying rolling stock now is better than it was in the 70s like for like.  

If you actually did remember that time you'd know the Beeching cuts closed almost a third of the network, huge public finance was being spent on motorway building, the State was shrinking a mode of transport from orders by the car companies, someone buys a new car sometimes every year, old cars become junk very quickly, trains have a much much lower negative environmental impact.

You weren't even alive back in the 70s, for the above reasons but also because Southern Rail and Northern rail strikes have been happening for years now, as bad as the 70s, the 70s strikes had the national  motorway building reason the shrinking of the rail system because of car companies, what reason do the strikes have now?  Privatized rail companies squeezing as much money out while spending as little as possible, workers forced to work for free etc, patrons feel the results in strikes.

I was alive in the 70s, Sadly, I was also alive in the 60s, and there is no way the rolling stock was newer or better in the 70s. Investment was incredibly low, because the country was virtually bankrupt. Breakdowns were routine, of both stock and track, and the network was wracked by national strikes and wildcat strikes. There is no comparison with the service now, where amenities are vastly superior, trains are more reliable and strike are rare, Southern Rail excepted. 

2 hours ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

British Rail developed the world's first tilting train – The Advanced Passenger Train (APT). The object of the tilt was to minimise the discomfort to passengers caused by taking curves.  The APT also included hydrokinetic brakes, which enabled the train to stop from 150 mph within existing signal spacings.

The APT-E first ran on 25 July 1971.

Shame it didn't work, cost a fortune and was quietly scrapped. It was one of the many industrial vanity projects that sucked up what little industrial investment there was in the 60s and 70s, and contributed to the collapse of British industry.

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The benefit of privatisation is that you introduce competition and a need to run services at a high level to retain custom. The problem is that these things do not readily apply to the rail industry. On the overwhelming majority of services, you are a slave to one and one company only providing the service. If you think GTR on Southern are crap you can't jump on a Virgin or Stagecoach train instead, as there aren't any. So competition fails there. People don't spend hours every day on Southern in existential despair because they have any choice in the matter.

The other issue that during the competition phase, only 2-3 companies generally apply (this was larger for the first wave of privatisation, then dropped precipitously as the companies realised how little return it would generate). If you get 2 or 3 crap companies applying, you're going to end up with a crap company regardless of which shade of crap it is.

The final issue - and this is such an obvious problem I still can't quite over the fact no-one thought of it - is that these contracts have a finite lifespan and then end in another competition, so in Year 5 of a 7-year contract, the TOC will halt all "unnecessary" expenditure because, well, why spend millions on upgrading or even maintaining facilities when you might lose the contract at the end of the period (especially if you know you're going to bail and not reapply)?

The modern TOCs don't really make any money out of the service either. Most of them are used as cashflow-generators by coach companies whose core bus and coach businesses turn much bigger profits (this is what GTR does on Southern), or by the national rail companies of other countries: the Dutch rail firm owns a stake in Abellio (Greater Anglia, Merseyrail, Arriva Wales, Northern), the German one runs London Overground and CrossCountry and the French nation rail firm owns stakes in GTR/Southern/SouthEastern and TransPennine.

One of the best-performing lines since privatisation has been East Coast in 2009-15 when it was, er, renationalised.

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On 16/06/2017 at 6:44 PM, Hereward said:

I was alive in the 70s, Sadly, I was also alive in the 60s, and there is no way the rolling stock was newer or better in the 70s. Investment was incredibly low, because the country was virtually bankrupt. Breakdowns were routine, of both stock and track, and the network was wracked by national strikes and wildcat strikes. There is no comparison with the service now, where amenities are vastly superior, trains are more reliable and strike are rare, Southern Rail excepted. 

Shame it didn't work, cost a fortune and was quietly scrapped. It was one of the many industrial vanity projects that sucked up what little industrial investment there was in the 60s and 70s, and contributed to the collapse of British industry.

People were vastly better off in the 60s and 70s, they owned their homes, went on holidays abroad, had tv radio, owned a family car DEBT FREE.  Income inequality is far worse now.  The implementation of fiat money in the 1970s meant loans became a huge thing, guess who benefited from that?  People fell for it.  Look what happens in the 70s with privatization http://static3.uk.businessinsider.com/image/5463c507dd0895c9538b45be-1200/the-swings-in-inequality-over-the-20th-century-are-even-more-dramatic-when-looking-at-wealth-rather-than-income.jpg

Privatization of key public services was  and is theft.

Of course the trains are vastly superior now it's 40 years on, compare 1970s trains to 1930's trains.  British Rail at the time was implementing cutting edge designs at that time, APT's design was highly influential and directly inspired other successful trains like the British Rail class 91.  

There's a media blackout on strikes because for one it's not news anymore, and two the rightwing press are on a everything is fine because they think they're doing fine, billionaires are laughing. The Indie and Guardian do run articles on strikes.  733,300 workers on strike in 2014, though it does vary as in 2015 it was 81,000, this in the face of Thatcher's draconian anti-Union legislation.  Imagine what it would be like without that legislation, we'd have the billionaires stripped of their stolen privatized industries and their banks printing fiat money.

People knew something wasn't right in the 60s and 70s, they knew the State was being controlled by an Oligarchy, and the Oligarchy was restless as they had been losing their income inequality war since WW2, they waited for enough time to pass for the war to fade a little before implementing plans to seize everything again like they had before WW2, that has led to the situation and feeling the repercussions of 8 people owning the same wealth as 50% of the world's human population.

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On 16/06/2017 at 10:42 PM, Werthead said:

The benefit of privatisation is that you introduce competition and a need to run services at a high level to retain custom. The problem is that these things do not readily apply to the rail industry.

Which industries do you think they do apply to?  (genuinely curious)

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8 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Which industries do you think they do apply to?  (genuinely curious)

There's a lot more competition in the energy sector, and in fact a lot of small companies have gotten into the act offering lower prices. That's one area where privitisation has actually worked, more or less, although the situation is still far from ideal.

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8 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Which industries do you think they do apply to?  (genuinely curious)

Telecoms, energy, automotive, chemicals, shipbuilding, haulage, airlines, minerals, just for starters.

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Theresa May has just managed to put herself in a ridiculous bind.

The Tory hard Brexiteers have warned her that if she backslides on Brexit she will face a leadership challenge. The DUP have told her that hard Brexit is a no-no if she wants their support. She needs their support to prop up her government. If she doesn't get their support and tries to lead as a minority government, that will not satisfy the need for increased confidence from her party so she may face a leadership challenge.

Of course, any new Tory leader would then face the same criticism as Brown and May herself did, that they do not have a mandate from the British people and the pressure for a new election would then grow accordingly.

I do have to congratulate the Conservative Party for leading this country - completely needlessly - into the most unstable and shambolic political and social situation it's been in for thirty years. It's actually quite impressive, if you discount the millions of lives it is affecting adversely.

Quote

 

Which industries do you think they do apply to?  (genuinely curious)

 

Well, telecoms clearly not (there are only three horses in the race if you want a decent service, all monstrously overpriced) and shipbuilding has dropped off a cliff (134 cargo ships built in Britain in 1976, 4 in 2011), with even the Royal Navy commissioning its heavy tankers from South Korea (we are building two aircraft carriers though, so yay). If you accept that shipbuilding's decline was inevitable and privatisation was a way of moving the blame for its fall from government to private industry then yes, it was a success, if you squint a bit.

Minerals, right with you there. When I wake up in the morning and think, as I often do, "You know what? Today I'm going to buy some motherfucking quartz", the UK industry has me covered, sweet as.

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On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 0:20 AM, Traveller between Worlds said:

People were vastly better off in the 60s and 70s, they owned their homes, went on holidays abroad, had tv radio, owned a family car DEBT FREE.  Income inequality is far worse now.  The implementation of fiat money in the 1970s meant loans became a huge thing, guess who benefited from that?  People fell for it.  Look what happens in the 70s with privatization http://static3.uk.businessinsider.com/image/5463c507dd0895c9538b45be-1200/the-swings-in-inequality-over-the-20th-century-are-even-more-dramatic-when-looking-at-wealth-rather-than-income.jpg

Privatization of key public services was  and is theft.

Of course the trains are vastly superior now it's 40 years on, compare 1970s trains to 1930's trains.  British Rail at the time was implementing cutting edge designs at that time, APT's design was highly influential and directly inspired other successful trains like the British Rail class 91.  

There's a media blackout on strikes because for one it's not news anymore, and two the rightwing press are on a everything is fine because they think they're doing fine, billionaires are laughing. The Indie and Guardian do run articles on strikes.  733,300 workers on strike in 2014, though it does vary as in 2015 it was 81,000, this in the face of Thatcher's draconian anti-Union legislation.  Imagine what it would be like without that legislation, we'd have the billionaires stripped of their stolen privatized industries and their banks printing fiat money.

People knew something wasn't right in the 60s and 70s, they knew the State was being controlled by an Oligarchy, and the Oligarchy was restless as they had been losing their income inequality war since WW2, they waited for enough time to pass for the war to fade a little before implementing plans to seize everything again like they had before WW2, that has led to the situation and feeling the repercussions of 8 people owning the same wealth as 50% of the world's human population.

People were certainly not better off in the Sixties and Seventies than they are now.

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So, genuine question, is there a good version of how UK politics unfolds over the next six months? Theresa May seems to have an unwinnable scenario on her hands, unless she has some magic Kobayachi Maru up her sleeve. But she, and I presume most people, realise that right now is a dreadful time to be having a leadership election. I can't see any alternatives, we either have a dreadful prime minister presiding over Brexit or we have a leadership and possibly a general election over the same period, all the while dealing with a pretty sharp increase in terror attacks and an investigation into the Grenfell tragedy. God I wish we could delay Brexit (and I'm surprised how often I'm seeing it mentioned that we cancel it altogether).

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8 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

So, genuine question, is there a good version of how UK politics unfolds over the next six months? Theresa May seems to have an unwinnable scenario on her hands, unless she has some magic Kobayachi Maru up her sleeve. But she, and I presume most people, realise that right now is a dreadful time to be having a leadership election. I can't see any alternatives, we either have a dreadful prime minister presiding over Brexit or we have a leadership and possibly a general election over the same period, all the while dealing with a pretty sharp increase in terror attacks and an investigation into the Grenfell tragedy. God I wish we could delay Brexit (and I'm surprised how often I'm seeing it mentioned that we cancel it altogether).

I expect that Theresa May will remain in office longer than most people anticipate, because right now, there's no good alternative to her.

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42 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

So, genuine question, is there a good version of how UK politics unfolds over the next six months? Theresa May seems to have an unwinnable scenario on her hands, unless she has some magic Kobayachi Maru up her sleeve. But she, and I presume most people, realise that right now is a dreadful time to be having a leadership election. I can't see any alternatives, we either have a dreadful prime minister presiding over Brexit or we have a leadership and possibly a general election over the same period, all the while dealing with a pretty sharp increase in terror attacks and an investigation into the Grenfell tragedy. God I wish we could delay Brexit (and I'm surprised how often I'm seeing it mentioned that we cancel it altogether).

Yeah my 'hope' is that she stays and things blow over. Not because I like her or think she is doing a good job, but that any more disruption will end up being a complete disaster. I agree there are very few other candidates to replace her but even if they did we could end up with a Gen Election which would be another distruption, another disaster. She could hang on for a bit, there could be an upturn in the economy, or she has some sort of Falklands moment that swings opinion in her direction.

My only glimmer of hope is that there are a group of civil servants out there who are going through the Brexit talks dutifully, unaffected by politics, who will manage to ignore all the crap around them and just get on and deliver a good result. That doesn't seem very likely but I guess its possible. 

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30 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yeah my 'hope' is that she stays and things blow over. Not because I like her or think she is doing a good job, but that any more disruption will end up being a complete disaster. I agree there are very few other candidates to replace her but even if they did we could end up with a Gen Election which would be another distruption, another disaster. She could hang on for a bit, there could be an upturn in the economy, or she has some sort of Falklands moment that swings opinion in her direction.

My only glimmer of hope is that there are a group of civil servants out there who are going through the Brexit talks dutifully, unaffected by politics, who will manage to ignore all the crap around them and just get on and deliver a good result. That doesn't seem very likely but I guess its possible. 

Only the Conservatives can provide any sort of government at the moment, so they must get on and govern.  And, I think it would be dereliction of duty if she were to step down right now.

The voters would rightly be very unhappy about another election called for party advantage.

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On 6/16/2017 at 9:42 PM, Werthead said:

The final issue - and this is such an obvious problem I still can't quite over the fact no-one thought of it - is that these contracts have a finite lifespan and then end in another competition, so in Year 5 of a 7-year contract, the TOC will halt all "unnecessary" expenditure because, well, why spend millions on upgrading or even maintaining facilities when you might lose the contract at the end of the period (especially if you know you're going to bail and not reapply)?

Having worked with a few private sector run operations i can honestly say this is one of the worst parts of privatization.

Companies tend to bid on a contract that is say 5 years in length. So the first year they blow a lots of cash to impress people and get over the honeymoon period. It gives people the impression they are better than the previous contract holders.
By mid contract they have worked out what they can or cannot get away with and things settle down.

But within the last year, or from when the re-tendering process begins, nobody wants to spend any money on anything realistic. You'll maybe get money spent of visual stuff, like making the operation look slick and the like, but on the expensive investment where it's probably needed....not a chance. No private company is going to blow cash on a project they stand to loose in a couple of years, especially in public services like transport services etc.

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So, genuine question, is there a good version of how UK politics unfolds over the next six months? Theresa May seems to have an unwinnable scenario on her hands, unless she has some magic Kobayachi Maru up her sleeve. But she, and I presume most people, realise that right now is a dreadful time to be having a leadership election. I can't see any alternatives, we either have a dreadful prime minister presiding over Brexit or we have a leadership and possibly a general election over the same period, all the while dealing with a pretty sharp increase in terror attacks and an investigation into the Grenfell tragedy. God I wish we could delay Brexit (and I'm surprised how often I'm seeing it mentioned that we cancel it altogether).

 

No, none.

There are scenarios where it all unfolds in a less crappy way than it probably well, but it's not going to unfold very well at all. The government can't survive until 2022 - a similar number of by-elections to the last parliament would endanger even the thin majority it ekes out with the DUP - but it might get a couple of years under its belt and then call another election post the final Brexit deal.

The best result is that the EU feels strengthened by the concerns of countries seeing the clusterfuck that's been caused and doesn't actually need to "make an example" of the UK, and we end up with a mostly acceptable deal. That doesn't help the instability brought about in internal politics.

 

Quote

 

Only the Conservatives can provide any sort of government at the moment, so they must get on and govern.  And, I think it would be dereliction of duty if she were to step down right now.

 

Well, they quite clearly can't, and could not have plunged the country into more of an unnecessary pig's ear shitstorm if they'd actively tried.

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11 hours ago, Lyanna Stark said:

On a different note, while a UK resident, I was always surprised and dismayed at the low UK voter turnout, especially among younger people, but perhaps that is about to change? Can Labour sustain the enthusiasm and succeed the next time around, and will this actually work?

Absolutely. Consider this is what was accomplished with the entire British media against them, no-one taking Corbyn seriously and very little prep time. Next time it will be an even stronger movement.

The counter-argument is that next time the Conservatives will take the challenge much more seriously and will make a greater effort, but the Tories will also be proceeding from a period of greater weakness, having engendered serious public anger with debacle after debacle, and is still divided on Europe. It's not impossible that the Labour momentum will stall and the Tories will recover somewhat, but I can't quite see it unless they pull off a spectacular success on Brexit and the economy.

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29 minutes ago, Werthead said:

No, none.

There are scenarios where it all unfolds in a less crappy way than it probably well, but it's not going to unfold very well at all. The government can't survive until 2022 - a similar number of by-elections to the last parliament would endanger even the thin majority it ekes out with the DUP - but it might get a couple of years under its belt and then call another election post the final Brexit deal.

The best result is that the EU feels strengthened by the concerns of countries seeing the clusterfuck that's been caused and doesn't actually need to "make an example" of the UK, and we end up with a mostly acceptable deal. That doesn't help the instability brought about in internal politics.

 

Well, they quite clearly can't, and could not have plunged the country into more of an unnecessary pig's ear shitstorm if they'd actively tried.

You assume they didn't actively try.

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