US Politics: the Lying Liars Who Lie edtion

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 minutes ago, Mexal said:

How is this humanly possible? 

 

Seeing as how he recused himself (kinda) from the investigation, I suppose he could use that as cover. I'm not really sure what role the AG would play in that sort of thing anyway. It's not like we can prosecute the Russians for this, right? 

[Mexal]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Seeing as how he recused himself (kinda) from the investigation, I suppose he could use that as cover. I'm not really sure what role the AG would play in that sort of thing anyway. It's not like we can prosecute the Russians for this, right? 

He is responsible for the FBI, which leads the counter-intelligence efforts against the Russians. If I was him, I'd want to know what the Russians did and how we can stop them in the future because it's a big fucking deal and it's all anyone talks about. It would literally be my first conversation when I was sworn in.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 minutes ago, Mexal said:

He is responsible for the FBI, which leads the counter-intelligence efforts against the Russians. If I was him, I'd want to know what the Russians did and how we can stop them in the future because it's a big fucking deal and it's all anyone talks about. It would literally be my first conversation when I was sworn in.

He works in conjunction with the FBI methinks, and is the official go between with the President, but I don't think he's responsible for them, is he? 

 Your point would be understandable if this administration were concerned about Russian interference, but they clearly are not. How Sessions could even pretend to be concerned about this while his boss holds a closed meeting with a Russian ambassador and a known Russian spy-master would be pretty laughable, don't you think?

[Gertrude]

This question applies to the time between the election and his appointment. I know he wasn't AG, but he indicated that he never asked about it at all.

And Kamela Harris just got shushed again. Sessions has been filibustering where he can and he was with her. If the senators only get a short time for their dog and pony show, at least they should be able to expect that their questions are directly answered.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Best Trump nickname to date for my money: Lil' Donny Two Scoops.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

@OldGimletEye,

I actually agree with most of what you said. I just wanted to point out that Democrats cannot keep playing be a weaker set of rules than Republicans and expect to be back in power.

[Fez]

Sounds like someone finally managed to tell Trump a little bit about what's in the AHCA.

Maybe he should've looked into whether the bill was "mean" before throwing that rose garden party last month.

ETA: https://apnews.com/b5383189b4dc4dea94890f13846c2639/AP-sources:-Trump-tells-senators-House-health-bill-'mean

Quote

 

Trump’s comments were described by two GOP congressional sources who received accounts of Tuesday’s White House lunch. They spoke on condition of anonymity to reveal a closed-door conversation.

Their descriptions of Trump’s words differed slightly.

One source said Trump called the House bill “mean, mean, mean” and said, “We need to be more generous, more kind.” The other source said Trump used a vulgar phrase to describe the House bill and told the senators, “We need to be more generous.”

 

There's not enough alcohol in the world to get me through to January 2021 (or even January 2019, hopefully).

[all swedes are racist]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

She's never going to run for POTUS, but I also really don't understand this view at all. What does her delaying a vote by 24 hours matter? Are you really espousing useless gestures and political theater over actual functioning government?

That it would also stop things like Russian sanctions and Sessions testifying is another issue.

Voting against someone is kind of different than holding a meaningless delay tactic.

i dunno, people fucking hate the ahca, any added time to get constituents to call their congresspersons or anything else that might knife this ghoulish thing can only be good. as opposed to, say, working on russian sanctions, which gets us what exactly?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

As to the Session's Hearing, the crocodile tears for how Comey treated Hillary were infuriating. Sessions, Trump, and practically every Republican are on the record approving of Comey's actions in July and October. 

Also, a lot of Session's non-answers were pretty revealing. The rule he kept citing is voluntary, and he's broken it in the past. There were several questions that he could have easily answered if they would have strengthened Trump's hand. That fact that he didn't should indicate that he had something to hide, and I suspect the biggest one is that Trump told him he was firing Comey over the Russia investigation. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Fez said:

Sounds like someone finally managed to tell Trump a little bit about what's in the AHCA.

Maybe he should've looked into whether the bill was "mean" before throwing that rose garden party last month.

ETA: https://apnews.com/b5383189b4dc4dea94890f13846c2639/AP-sources:-Trump-tells-senators-House-health-bill-'mean

There's not enough alcohol in the world to get me through to January 2021 (or even January 2019, hopefully).

I'm shocked, shocked I say, that Trump hasn't read the bill or even inquired about it. But hey, that's what you get from a guy who calls himself "like a details person" who "only needs a summary." 

He's literally said both of those things. 

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, commiedore said:

i dunno, people fucking hate the ahca, any added time to get constituents to call their congresspersons or anything else that might knife this ghoulish thing can only be good. as opposed to, say, working on russian sanctions, which gets us what exactly?

Russian sanctions and budget deals and the like get us some actual functional government. 

As far as I can tell, calling congresspeople has not done anything, particularly these senators. More time isn't an issue here, either. The moderates are the ones that are most likely to get chopped regardless of what they do (that's true every time there's a change in presidents; the moderates in swing states are the ones most vulnerable), and they're probably betting on having their party have their back instead of not. 

But making it so that Trump can make deals with Russia and go against our NATO allies is not a good thing. It emboldens Russia even further and distances us from our allies even more. It also defangs congress even further. 

Mostly, I would rather not do pointless quixotic acts that are virtue signalling but ultimately pointless. Republicans did that for the last 6 years with their 52 separate repeal attempts. It's worthless. Figure out something that will make an actual difference, or get the fuck out. 

[all swedes are racist]

48 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Russian sanctions and budget deals and the like get us some actual functional government. 

As far as I can tell, calling congresspeople has not done anything, particularly these senators. More time isn't an issue here, either. The moderates are the ones that are most likely to get chopped regardless of what they do (that's true every time there's a change in presidents; the moderates in swing states are the ones most vulnerable), and they're probably betting on having their party have their back instead of not. 

But making it so that Trump can make deals with Russia and go against our NATO allies is not a good thing. It emboldens Russia even further and distances us from our allies even more. It also defangs congress even further. 

Mostly, I would rather not do pointless quixotic acts that are virtue signalling but ultimately pointless. Republicans did that for the last 6 years with their 52 separate repeal attempts. It's worthless. Figure out something that will make an actual difference, or get the fuck out. 

but more time is an issue; why else are they trying to rush this through, in secret, before the recess?

and i have to disagree that the politcal theater is pointless. the republicans may not have had much legislative success over the past 6 years, but they did a helluva job convincing people obamacare was horrible just on the name alone. the democrats need to keep hammering a simple and solid message for 2018, (namely 'we will save your healthcare', with the added bonus trumpcare actually sucks drippy ass and is way worse than the aca). even if it ends up empty 'virtue signalling' thats way better than spinelessly rolling into a ball hoping for *someone anyone* to save you

[Kalbear]

Just now, commiedore said:

but more time is an issue; why else are they trying to rush this through, in secret, before the recess?

They're trying to do it in secret so they can get it done by the FY17 deadline for reconciliation, though apparently that's less of a deadline than a guideline. 24 hours isn't going to matter that much. 

Just now, commiedore said:

and i have to disagree that the politcal theater is pointless. the republicans may not have had much legislative success over the past 6 years, but they did a helluva job convincing people obamacare was horrible just on the name alone. the democrats need to keep hammering a simple and solid message for 2018, (namely 'we will save your healthcare', with the added bonus trumpcare actually sucks drippy ass and is way worse than the aca). even if it ends up empty 'virtue signalling' thats way better than spinelessly rolling into a ball hoping for *someone anyone* to save you

As far as I can tell they've done a great job; the ACA has gone to 55% or better approval now, and the AHCA has gone down to 20%.

it does not matter though. It doesn't change who is voting for these asshats, It doesn't change how these congresspeople are getting elected - through gerrymandering. There is basically no threat to them being forced out at all, and grandstanding that actually costs things we want is not worth it.

I agree that the Democrats can, and should (and have) make sure that healthcare is the biggest deal, period. That this secret talking about a bill with no markup, debate, or even reveal is wrong. They should hammer this message over and over again, every chance they get. What they should not do is destroy any ability to get anything else they want for no gain. If they can get something for it? Awesome. But one day isn't going to sink this. 

[all swedes are racist]

ok, but what are they losing them then? maybe i'm just an idiot, but  at that point, i guess i feel anything the republicans are will to negotiate on in exchange for not standing up to this ghoulish trumpcare bill, is not worth passing anyway

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I'd take any delay you could force. The speed in which things are happening in and to this administration, who knows what might crop up in the course of a day that might help the cause. Anything is better than nothing when it comes to #Wealthcare.

[Kalbear]

Just now, commiedore said:

ok, but what are they losing them then? maybe i'm just an idiot, but  at that point, i guess i feel anything the republicans are will to negotiate on in exchange for not standing up to this ghoulish trumpcare bill, is not worth passing anyway

I think there are some things that are worth potentially haggling over, largely around foreign policy. 

And this isn't really doing anything 'for' the Republicans. The Democrats are simply not going to absurd, useless lengths to blockade anything. What they gain is some semblance of good will from Republicans and the ability to negotiate at some points. Otherwise they'll be burning their last bridges and there will simply be no reason for Democrats in congress to exist. 

Which I can see a reasonable argument for, but it kind of is defeating to Democrats. Democrats are the party that actually believes government can do good things, and abdicating that plays right into conservative hands.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'd take any delay you could force. The speed in which things are happening in and to this administration, who knows what might crop up in the course of a day that might help the cause. Anything is better than nothing when it comes to #Wealthcare.

So you'd be okay with letting Russia off the hook and giving them potentially hundreds of billions of dollars in financing and sales from US companies, while also showing them that the US will do nothing at all with respect to their disruption of US interests and will actively encourage them to attack other Democratic countries?

Here's the thing I don't get. People are saying that the Trump issues are causing him to have problems, but as far as I can tell things are proceeding largely according to GOP plan and pace. The first AHCA vote wasn't delayed by Trump or his issues at all, it was delayed because they didn't go conservative enough. The removal of regulations hasn't been delayed by Trump. The budget his office put forward is garbage, but they're not working on the budget right now anyway. What, specifically, is Trump's distractions actually doing to delay anything?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

So you'd be okay with letting Russia off the hook and giving them potentially hundreds of billions of dollars in financing and sales from US companies, while also showing them that the US will do nothing at all with respect to their disruption of US interests and will actively encourage them to attack other Democratic countries?

I missed the bit as to how those two things are linked?

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I missed the bit as to how those two things are linked?

Right now there's a bipartisan group of senators working to ensure that the Russian sanctions stay put, and possibly get stronger.

That collection completely disappears per Senator Murray if they go nuclear on AHCA and delay as much as possible. Those Republicans will not work with Democrats at all at that point - rightfully.

ETA: the other thing that this gets them is actually having people like Sessions testify. If you don't want open hearings from the Republican-controlled committees, you'll support the nuclear option.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Right now there's a bipartisan group of senators working to ensure that the Russian sanctions stay put, and possibly get stronger.

That collection completely disappears per Senator Murray if they go nuclear on AHCA and delay as much as possible. Those Republicans will not work with Democrats at all at that point - rightfully.

So just spit the bit on fighting the AHCA? Based on the hope that the R's are going to give you a hand with the Russian sanctions? They'd better get that in writing. Sounds like a sucker's bet, quite frankly.