US Politics: the Lying Liars Who Lie edtion

[Lion of the West]

This shooting is, like all other shootings, a horrible incident and a tragic affair right through.

[Cas Stark]

Not all 'mass shootings' are created equal. 

There IS a difference between a truly disturbed person like Loughner or the Sandy Hook shooter and someone who is killing for political motives, sometimes these things overlap, but not always.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the anti GOP, anti Trump rhetoric hasn't been hysterical, even more hysterical than the anti Obama and anti Bush hysterical rhetoric that preceded it.

[Inigima]

Obviously this shooting is terrible, I hope and assume we can all agree on that. During the Obama era, a lot of right-wingers used what I would consider violent imagery and even verbalized it, and I blame that for, e.g., the attempted murder of Gabby Giffords (which I would describe as domestic terrorism, as I would this shooting). At that time the Republican Party was using explicitly violent imagery, like the posters with Giffords' head in crosshairs. They received a lot of flak for it, but Who-Me?'d themselves to try to escape culpability. Barack Obama was lynched in effigy more times than I can count. I just read a 2016 story where a Georgia senator essentially prayed for Obama's death, quoting the "let his days be few" psalm(?) -- which doesn't sound so bad if you don't read the rest of it.

All this to say that I don't see the same rhetoric from the left. Which I'm glad about, but I've already seen "incitement by left-wing media" blamed for this incident. This is obviously horrible but I just don't see that as a cause. I worry it will be used as an excuse for more attacks on the media, which I worry will continue to fuel more actual physical attacks on journalists.

Congressional Dems are responding well. There is no acceptable response to this that isn't a condemnation.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the anti GOP, anti Trump rhetoric hasn't been hysterical, even more hysterical than the anti Obama and anti Bush hysterical rhetoric that preceded it.

It's kind of easy to claim otherwise given what is actually causing said rhetoric.

You're right that it is similar rhetoric at times to things like the PizzaGate stuff which is prompting people to go into random restaurants and shoot things. The difference is that what is actually being taken away is completely real. 

I mentioned above that there is a great short story idea, and here it is: when old people who grew up in the era of the 60s and the 70s see their civil liberties and their medical care and their social security being taken away, what do they do? When their options are living for a couple more years and bankrupting their family or going out in a blaze of glory, what do they do? When congress doesn't listen to poll numbers, doesn't hold town halls, actively promotes actual fake information and ignores actual attacks on the US, what do you do?

As Trump said, what do you have to lose?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I mentioned above that there is a great short story idea, and here it is: when old people who grew up in the era of the 60s and the 70s see their civil liberties and their medical care and their social security being taken away, what do they do? When their options are living for a couple more years and bankrupting their family or going out in a blaze of glory, what do they do? When congress doesn't listen to poll numbers, doesn't hold town halls, actively promotes actual fake information and ignores actual attacks on the US, what do you do?

As Trump said, what do you have to lose?

Kind of been done, but without the elderly angle. See Bob Golthwait's God Bless America, or perhaps Breaking Bad. I guess The Straight Story would also qualify, although that lacked the violence angle. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Kind of been done, but without the elderly angle. See Bob Golthwait's God Bless America, or perhaps Breaking Bad. I guess The Straight Story would also qualify, although that lacked the violence angle. 

The elderly angle is, IMO, what makes it interesting. Breaking Bad is similar but lacks the patriotism implicit, or the rebellion. 

The notion that the elderly could become radicalized because they literally have nothing else to lose is, IMO, the special part of it. I have no idea if that was some of this person's motivations, but I can certainly empathize with the feeling of not having anything else to lose.

Also something I've not seen reported on this forum yet was how incredibly lucky they were to have Scalise there at all. If he happened to not be practicing there would have been zero police presence at the immediate scene, with about twenty congresspeople present. My suspicion is that the shooter picked this specific time to slaughter a whole lot of Republican congresspeople and happened to be surprised by the police presence. 

[Kalbear]

Also

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

27 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's kind of easy to claim otherwise given what is actually causing said rhetoric.

You're right that it is similar rhetoric at times to things like the PizzaGate stuff which is prompting people to go into random restaurants and shoot things. The difference is that what is actually being taken away is completely real. 

I mentioned above that there is a great short story idea, and here it is: when old people who grew up in the era of the 60s and the 70s see their civil liberties and their medical care and their social security being taken away, what do they do? When their options are living for a couple more years and bankrupting their family or going out in a blaze of glory, what do they do? When congress doesn't listen to poll numbers, doesn't hold town halls, actively promotes actual fake information and ignores actual attacks on the US, what do you do?

As Trump said, what do you have to lose?

Well I see it didn't take long for the shooting to be romanticized.

[OldGimletEye]

53 minutes ago, Paladin of Ice said:

GOP lawmakers are already blaming "Democratic rhetoric" for the shooting. http://thehill.com/homenews/news/337738-gop-lawmaker-links-alexandria-shooting-to-dem-rhetoric

Remember how every time there's a mass shooting someone (usually right wing) says it would be too early and disrespectful to use this as a time to politicize things? Yeah.

Meanwhile, I'm just going to leave this old Rand Paul tweet here as a reminder of right wing approval of using guns to shoot at government figures. 

 

1. What happened today is utter bullshit. There is no place for political violence in this country. There is no place for any kind of "pre-emptive violence". The only justification for violence is that for self defense. Period. End of story. No ands if or buts about it.

2. And I hope the victims of this violence make a speedy recovery.

3. But, I still say to hell with Donald Trump. And to hell with the Republican Party.

4. I will personally continue to attack Trump, the Republican Party, and Conservatives when I feel they do something wrong. And, further more, the left has every right to be extremely critical right now of Trump, Republicans, and conservatives.

In short, Chris Collins can just go pound sand. If Chris Collins wants a politer tone, the GOP can start first. And they can also start by being a little more accurate and measured in their criticisms.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well I see it didn't take long for the shooting to be romanticized.

How is it romantic? He was living out of his gym bag for the last month and a half, apparently at the YMCA or in his car. He was unemployed and looking for work, apparently. 

I can empathize with you, FNR; I know that you have to believe in outlandish stuff and contradict any actual data that comes your way because if you didn't, you would lose your entire identity and culture. You have to believe, because if you didn't it would mean that you aren't as good as you think you are. Similarly with this guy - I can empathize with someone who has lost their job, is old, is angry, was fighting for a world that they wanted and has seen it go to shit over and over again. That doesn't mean I agree with it or think it is a good thing any more than I agree with ISIS. 

If you're calling that romantic, I'd hate to see what you call your infatuation with Putin. 

[Kalbear]

And before y'all ask, here's that report: a former mayor talked to the shooter basically every single day for the last month.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Looks like there are some serious cyber-security issues surrounding the Georgia run-off election...

 http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/14/will-the-georgia-special-election-get-hacked-215255?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

[Red Tiger]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

How is it romantic? He was living out of his gym bag for the last month and a half, apparently at the YMCA or in his car. He was unemployed and looking for work, apparently. 

I can empathize with you, FNR; I know that you have to believe in outlandish stuff and contradict any actual data that comes your way because if you didn't, you would lose your entire identity and culture. You have to believe, because if you didn't it would mean that you aren't as good as you think you are. Similarly with this guy - I can empathize with someone who has lost their job, is old, is angry, was fighting for a world that they wanted and has seen it go to shit over and over again. That doesn't mean I agree with it or think it is a good thing any more than I agree with ISIS. 

If you're calling that romantic, I'd hate to see what you call your infatuation with Putin. 

Goddayumn, Kal, have some mercy.

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Not all 'mass shootings' are created equal. 

There IS a difference between a truly disturbed person like Loughner or the Sandy Hook shooter and someone who is killing for political motives, sometimes these things overlap, but not always.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the anti GOP, anti Trump rhetoric hasn't been hysterical, even more hysterical than the anti Obama and anti Bush hysterical rhetoric that preceded it.

Like the hardly noticed mass shootings and dead victims at the UPS center in California that also happened today.  That's is unlikely to be politically motivated.  The conditions for work in these delivery services are so grueling and stressful it's amazing that more haven't happened.

 

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

How is it romantic? He was living out of his gym bag for the last month and a half, apparently at the YMCA or in his car. He was unemployed and looking for work, apparently. 

I can empathize with you, FNR; I know that you have to believe in outlandish stuff and contradict any actual data that comes your way because if you didn't, you would lose your entire identity and culture. You have to believe, because if you didn't it would mean that you aren't as good as you think you are. Similarly with this guy - I can empathize with someone who has lost their job, is old, is angry, was fighting for a world that they wanted and has seen it go to shit over and over again. That doesn't mean I agree with it or think it is a good thing any more than I agree with ISIS. 

If you're calling that romantic, I'd hate to see what you call your infatuation with Putin. 

His health was also precarious.  Homeless, sick, without a job.

There's a lot of those people, and lot of them have guns -- and actual military experience -- which may come as a surprise to certain ilks, particularly the idjiots in D.C. and the media.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

43 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Like the hardly noticed mass shootings and dead victims at the UPS center in California that also happened today.  That's is unlikely to be politically motivated.  The conditions for work in these delivery services are so grueling and stressful it's amazing that more haven't happened.

"Going Postal" has been privatized.

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

How is it romantic? He was living out of his gym bag for the last month and a half, apparently at the YMCA or in his car. He was unemployed and looking for work, apparently. 

I can empathize with you, FNR; I know that you have to believe in outlandish stuff and contradict any actual data that comes your way because if you didn't, you would lose your entire identity and culture. You have to believe, because if you didn't it would mean that you aren't as good as you think you are. Similarly with this guy - I can empathize with someone who has lost their job, is old, is angry, was fighting for a world that they wanted and has seen it go to shit over and over again. That doesn't mean I agree with it or think it is a good thing any more than I agree with ISIS. 

If you're calling that romantic, I'd hate to see what you call your infatuation with Putin. 

You're trying too hard to justify your position. It's fine. Stick with empathizing with the shooter. And crafting his melodramatic short story showing how circumstances drove the poor sod to this fateful act.

Looking forward to seeing which other mass shooter is the next beneficiary of your "empathetic" interpretive approach. 

[The Fallen]

The Dems should retort that it's Trump's rhetoric that set off this obviously disturbed dude. Then remind the Republicans that if they didn't allow crazies to get guns this would not have happened. It's essentially their fault. 

[mcbigski]

7 hours ago, denstorebog said:

People have already made up their minds about why these things happen and who the bad guys are. This is not gonna change it. When the time comes to place blame, Democrats can always point to Gabrielle Giffords and the pizzagate shootings, and the fight continues as usual.

The Giffords shooting wasn't politically motivated, Loughner is just all kinds of crazy.  Unless you know that and just mean that Democrats made the case it was to score some political points, and some are probably still invested in that narrative?

Otherwise, blaming Republicans for the Gifford shooting is either hugely misinformed or in very bad faith.

5 hours ago, Inigima said:

Obviously this shooting is terrible, I hope and assume we can all agree on that. During the Obama era, a lot of right-wingers used what I would consider violent imagery and even verbalized it, and I blame that for, e.g., the attempted murder of Gabby Giffords (which I would describe as domestic terrorism, as I would this shooting). At that time the Republican Party was using explicitly violent imagery, like the posters with Giffords' head in crosshairs.

Agree it is terrible.

However, that's quite a scoop you've got there about the poster.  In reality, Sarah Palin's PAC put out a map of the US with a bulls eye on the general vicinity of Giffords district in Arizona, along with a list of eight representatives they were targeting for political replacement.  Giffords picture was not included and certainly not superimposed with crosshairs (an outline of the state of Arizona was).  But don't let the facts get in the way of a good narrative. 

And Loughner, as stated above is totally fruit loops, and no history in any way towards advancing GOP political concerns. (And some of his friends are on record saying he was a leftist before he went all the way off the rails.)  Unlike this morning's shooter, who did appear to be something of a political activist previously opposed to the targets of the attack.

I guess when you normalize a culture of violence against your political opponents then this sort of thing is only to be expected.

[Kalbear]

One thought - if the police had not been there and he was able to kill 20 republicans, one outcome is that for a short time at least, the republicans would have lost their majority.