Azor Ahai and the monster he killed

[LordImp]

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The pages told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.^[3]

The Jade compendium mentions that AA once fought a monster and the monster burst into flame . 

The Other Sam killed melted , it didn't burst into flame . No boiling blood or steam from it's mouth .  So what monster did AA kill then ? IMO the monster could sound like a dragon . But then again it's weird to fight a fiery monster with a fiery blade .

Melisandre seems to be the only one of the Red priests that talks about the Others . Moqorro seems to be more concerned about Euron and Benerro mentions the Dark  eye who is watching Dany , the dark eye sounds very much like Euron . 

The fact that the Red faith in general does not speak of the Others and that Azor Ahai killed  a monster that bursted into flame makes me wonder if the legendary hero didnt fought the Others at all ? But then again the prophecy says that AA will fight the cold darkness with Lightbringer . The cold darkness is definetly the Others . 

I'm kinda split here . I'm thinking that AA did not fight the Others , but the prophecy makes me rethink that . 

 

What do you guys think ? What is the AA prophecy really about ? Was the monster he killed a Other or something else ? 

[hiemal]

I think it is possible that Lightbringer refers to dragons rather than a literal sword. Almost all enemies would burst into flame. IIRC, it was stressed that Lightbringer got hotter in battle- just like Drogon whose very blood begins to burn as it leaves his body in the pit of Daznak.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I have always been torn on this specific issue. On the one hand, the explanation that @hiemal said makes a lot of sense. But on the other hand, we have the existence of Valyrian steel generally, the super-special sword Dawn and House Dayne, and UnBeric, who literally fights with a flaming sword via blood magic.

As for the specific question posed in your OP @LordImp, I personally think AA traveled to Westeros and fought the Others at Battle Isle, but I think it is also possible that he spent time in the East around the Five Forts fighting different demons from the far north over there. And perhaps those "demons" did not melt like Others, and instead burst into flame when killed with the sword Lightbringer.

[hiemal]

19 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I have always been torn on this specific issue. On the one hand, the explanation that @hiemal said makes a lot of sense. But on the other hand, we have the existence of Valyrian steel generally, the super-special sword Dawn and House Dayne, and UnBeric, who literally fights with a flaming sword via blood magic.

As for the specific question posed in your OP @LordImp, I personally think AA traveled to Westeros and fought the Others at Battle Isle, but I think it is also possible that he spent time in the East around the Five Forts fighting different demons from the far north over there. And perhaps those "demons" did not melt like Others, and instead burst into flame when killed with the sword Lightbringer.

My current best guess on a literal sword is that it could all work in threes. So there would be a literal sword, Lightbringer; a figurative sword, dragons; and a heavenly sword, the comet.

My tinfoil is that LB is in the Iron Throne and Drogon's flame will release it. Not sure about the comet.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

58 minutes ago, hiemal said:

My current best guess on a literal sword is that it could all work in threes. So there would be a literal sword, Lightbringer; a figurative sword, dragons; and a heavenly sword, the comet.

My tinfoil is that LB is in the Iron Throne and Drogon's flame will release it. Not sure about the comet.

Hmmm... I like this "work in threes" idea. I agree the comet could 150% definitely be a third, heavenly "sword". Dragons are undeniably referenced to as metaphorical flaming swords, and Aemon declared that Dany's dragons proved she is AAR, so we certainly can't ignore that interpretation.

As for Dawn and your IT tinfoil... I always thought the most likely explanation of Dawn is that is was forged, as we are told, from the "heart of a fallen star", that is, the alloys present in the meteor that crashed at Starfall. So if anything is going to be a literal sword Lightbringer, I think it would have to be forged from a meteor and have some special "magical" properties as a result. BUT, there isn't any particular reason to think that the Starfall meteor only had enough material for one sword. So maybe there are more swords just like Dawn, and maybe one is inside the IT.

I think if there is going to be a literal sword Lightbringer it will be Dawn itself, wielded by Jon the new Sword of the Morning via his Dayne blood. But I like the idea of Drogon/wildfire burning KL to ashes and an un-meltable Lightbringer shining in the midst of the molten remnants of the IT. Talk about drawing a sword from the fire  

[300 H&H Magnum]

The Iron Throne is symbolic of the kingdom that Aegon built.  Forged from the flames of Balerion from the swords of his fallen enemy.  It may be necessary for the kingdom to break apart and thus the Iron Throne would be dismantled in a way.  As you all say, the IT could also be dismantled to distribute the swords.  Both kingdom and symbol would literally be broken up.

 

[Drogonthedread]

Iam so happy to see this tale is being talked a lot about these days but at the same time disappointed people can't connect it with the obvious answer to this tale and what event it foreshadows in the story ...

Now OP provided the Tale from jade compendium ..i will provide the other event that happens in the story which is a word for word match how AA kills the monster ..

 

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t is time to cross the Trident, Dany thought, as she wheeled and rode her silver back. Her bloodriders moved in close around her. “You are in difficulty,” she observed.

    “He will not come,” Kraznys said.

    “There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.”

    The black dragon spread his wings and roared.

    A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.

A Storm of Swords 

Now its not that difficult to match these two events right

 

[Drogonthedread]

6 hours ago, LordImp said:

The Jade compendium mentions that AA once fought a monster and the monster burst into flame . 

The Other Sam killed melted , it didn't burst into flame . No boiling blood or steam from it's mouth .  So what monster did AA kill then ? IMO the monster could sound like a dragon . But then again it's weird to fight a fiery monster with a fiery blade .

Melisandre seems to be the only one of the Red priests that talks about the Others . Moqorro seems to be more concerned about Euron and Benerro mentions the Dark  eye who is watching Dany , the dark eye sounds very much like Euron . 

The fact that the Red faith in general does not speak of the Others and that Azor Ahai killed  a monster that bursted into flame makes me wonder if the legendary hero didnt fought the Others at all ? But then again the prophecy says that AA will fight the cold darkness with Lightbringer . The cold darkness is definetly the Others . 

I'm kinda split here . I'm thinking that AA did not fight the Others , but the prophecy makes me rethink that . 

 

What do you guys think ? What is the AA prophecy really about ? Was the monster he killed a Other or something else ? 

The tale speaks about a battle that AA fought with a monster that doesn't eliminate him fighting others ...

he or she in this case will fight lots of battle..

Dany is been in danger from darkness and cold from AGOT ...GRRm is playing very subtle with regards to that ...but you can see it in her dreams and visions ..

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Can Others be killed by dragon fire? If not Barristan needs to start giving Dany a crash course in sword fighting if she's indeed the only one who can kill the boss Other.  

If Dawn is LB I hope Edric Dayne has stopped diddle daddling in the Riverlands and went home to Starfall and is in the process of qualifying to acquire Dawn. I mean with Beric dead he should be heading home right now anyway. He is the Lord of Starfall after all and he has an awesome sword there he could lay claim to. The fact that zombie Catelyn didn't hang him because of who his aunt was and he was able to leave her service unscathed is a small miracle in itself. I have to believe we'll see him again and maybe he'll have Dawn with him when we do.

[Drogonthedread]

So far the others have been killed only by Dragon Glass or Dragon Steel ..the common factor in both is Dragon and I don't see why Dragon Fire can't do the same thing ..

Besides who says you only have to fight with others to bring down their power. ..for example dany may destroy heart of winter with drogon like in the HoTU stopping the power while Jon others fight in a battle ..

[chrisdaw]

In that particular passage Jon plays the AA role and Dany the monster. It is about Jon impregnating Dany. It correlates with this one.

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Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. "Khaleesi," Jhiqui said, "what is wrong? Are you sick?"

This passage is about Dany falling pregnant with Rhaego, it is in the chapter which ends with Dany stating she knows she is pregnant.

Rhaego ofcourse dies and Dany gets her dragons. He is an accidental sacrifice for her dragons, though how much of an accident GRRM casts doubts on when Dany fails to answer MMD's accusation.

But that's neither here nor there, the important thing is Dany's child sacrificed = dragons. Hence both Dany's child and Dany = monster. That's what the text is telling us.

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Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.

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What have I done? she thought, huddled in her empty bed. I have waited so long for him to come back, and I send him away. "He would make a monster of me," she whispered, "a butcher queen." But then she thought of Drogon far away, and the dragons in the pit. There is blood on my hands too, and on my heart. We are not so different, Daario and I. We are both monsters.

Dany's dragons come at the cost of children, particularly Rhaego and then GRRM symbolically uses Hazzea to make the point.

On the other side Jon.

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Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

And ofcourse Jon saves a the child of inbreeding from being sacrificed for dragons, the child who Val names a monster.

What it's leading to is Dany is going to get impregnated by Jon, as per the passage in the OP, and if that child is sacrificed it will bring forth a dragon. Dany will believe that it will bring forth a dragon anyway, and she'll be intending to do it.

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"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

Jon and Dany, close relations, have a child, child = monster.

And so comes the whole Jon identity crisis that is the central arc of the whole series. Is it Jon Targaryen or Jon Stark. Does he go full blood and fire, that is allow the sacrifice of his blood for the fire dragon with which they can save the world.

Or is he all Stark, no innocent children are sacrificed, ever, under any circumstances. Not giving up Jon to Robert, Ned would rather lie and commit treason. No murdering Dany, Ned would rather fight a war. Giving Cersei the chance to escape to save her children. Lying and admitting to treason to save his children. And Jon himself, the disgust at Craster. The switching of monster.

No prizes for guessing which way Jon is going to go.

If AA existed or if he fought this monster or whatever is likely never going to be answered, the above is what that story exists for, it's not there in it's own right.
 

[LordImp]

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

 

I think it is possible that Lightbringer refers to dragons rather than a literal sword

 

Agree. The dragons or Drogon more speficially is Danys lightbringer . But it could be more than one LB right? If so we can have Dany with Drogon and Jon with a sword. 

 

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

personally think AA traveled to Westeros and fought the Others at Battle Isle, but I think it is also possible that he spent time in the East around the Five Forts fighting different demons

What kind of battle that was fought there is intersting. I agree that it was probably tied to Long Night. Possibly it was there humans finally started pushing the Others back. 

I'm also thinking that AA fought on a eastern front as you mentioned. We know from the world book that it was heroes in Essos aswell ( Yin Tar , Hyrkoon) so I do think that it was a eastern front of the LN.

3 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

events

I've never noticed that line. Thank you! 

 

2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Edric Dayne

Pretty sure that Edric returns home. But will Dawn be there? I think Darkstar will steal it before Ned gets it. 

[hiraeth]

I think the story of AA and the story of the Last Hero are two completely different stories - the AA story is full of southern, hot climate atmosphere, while in all the stories regarding the LN as told in Westeros - all the imagery is related to ice and snow - there is no LB in Old Nan's stories and other stories - the first time we ever hear about the LB is when Mel comes to the scene. Maybe I don't remember well, but even the story of the Prince that was Promised does not specifically mention any sword. What I think is - there were several Long Nights throughout history, or one Long Night described by different nations from different parts of the World - you have the Shadow in Ashai growing bigger, you have the ghost grass of the Dorthraki spreading - maybe they are all manifestations of whatever happens during the Long Night to be repeated. The monsters to fight during the LN can be the WW, but also some unnamed monsters in different parts of the world. What causes the shadow in Ashai or the ghost grass in the Dorthraki sea could be connected with the comming of the WW - maybe these are all manifestations of the LN globally.

[hiemal]

3 hours ago, LordImp said:

Agree. The dragons or Drogon more speficially is Danys lightbringer . But it could be more than one LB right? If so we can have Dany with Drogon and Jon with a sword.

Absolutely. That's pretty much how I expect it to go down.

Circling back to the original question of AA's foe, the Others (or an ice dragon?) seems a good guess but I wonder if they could be induced to burn even with magic rather than just melting. I suspect there may be more going on.

[Helikzhan]

LB seems to be a dragon. Dragon fire is very hot. Hotter than normal fire. Hot enough to melt the stone walls of Harrenhal so hot enough to melt an Other. 

My guess is we haven't yet seen the full power of the Others though. Particularly how vulnerable a dragon would be to an ice storm. 

[LordImp]

3 hours ago, hiraeth said:

I think the story of AA and the story of the Last Hero are two completely different stories - the AA story is full of southern, hot climate atmosphere, while in all the stories regarding the LN as told in Westeros - all the imagery is related to ice and snow - there is no LB in Old Nan's stories and other stories - the first time we ever hear about the LB is when Mel comes to the scene. Maybe I don't remember well, but even the story of the Prince that was Promised does not specifically mention any sword. What I think is - there were several Long Nights throughout history, or one Long Night described by different nations from different parts of the World - you have the Shadow in Ashai growing bigger, you have the ghost grass of the Dorthraki spreading - maybe they are all manifestations of whatever happens during the Long Night to be repeated. The monsters to fight during the LN can be the WW, but also some unnamed monsters in different parts of the world. What causes the shadow in Ashai or the ghost grass in the Dorthraki sea could be connected with the comming of the WW - maybe these are all manifestations of the LN globally.

Agree . In the east we have Hyrkoon the hero and in the Rhoyne we have lesser river gods fighting together . 

The whole world experience the Long night , but how the LN affects the world varies from place to place. Westeros gets the Others and in the east they might face something from the Shadowlands. 

[hiraeth]

1 minute ago, LordImp said:

Agree . In the east we have Hyrkoon the hero and in the Rhoyne we have lesser river gods fighting together . 

The whole world experience the Long night , but how the LN affects the world varies from place to place. Westeros gets the Others and in the east they might face something from the Shadowlands. 

There is one thing that makes me uncomfortable  though - why is Mel in Westeros? Why does she insist on the AA being in Westeros and brings her southern legend to the continent that will clearly be attacked by the WW? Is she completely delusional? Can't she see that there are no lions around the Wall to help forge the LB? And should Daenerys use her Dragons to fight whatever is going to attack Essos, not even returning to Westeros, rendering the Iron Throne totally unimportant. There were no dragons and Targs to fight in Westeros during the last LN, only the humans and the Children...

[LordImp]

1 hour ago, hiraeth said:

There is one thing that makes me uncomfortable  though - why is Mel in Westeros? Why does she insist on the AA being in Westeros and brings her southern legend to the continent that will clearly be attacked by the WW? Is she completely delusional? Can't she see that there are no lions around the Wall to help forge the LB? And should Daenerys use her Dragons to fight whatever is going to attack Essos, not even returning to Westeros, rendering the Iron Throne totally unimportant. There were no dragons and Targs to fight in Westeros during the last LN, only the humans and the Children...

Mel is known to misread her visions. She dosent really understand her visions and draws wrong conclusions.

What I find intersting is that the other red priests such as Moqorro and Benerro dosent mention the Others at all. Mel is the only red priest who is concerned about the Others.

[hiraeth]

49 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Mel is known to misread her visions. She dosent really understand her visions and draws wrong conclusions.

What I find intersting is that the other red priests such as Moqorro and Benerro dosent mention the Others at all. Mel is the only red priest who is concerned about the Others.

Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.

(Jon III, ADwD)

"You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man’s foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse. When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold.” 

Samwell XVIII, ASoS)

 

There are similarities but the WW's body did not burst into flame when Sam stabbed him with dragonglass dagger, and the sound of ice breaking is missing in the first description... I don't know, it seems Mel has some agenda or is sent by someone, her behavour is really strange, 

The LH had a broken sword when he was finally left alone, but we do not hear of it being on fire or being a LB, even though it was possible for the Children to reforge his sword - the fiery sword would be more prominent in the stories, don't you think?  We hear a lot about the alliance between the FM and the Children, Children giving them obsidian weapons as a sort of tribute, but there is no story about a sword of fire wielded by the LH. 

 

 

[LordImp]

43 minutes ago, hiraeth said:

Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.

(Jon III, ADwD)

"You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man’s foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse. When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold.” 

Samwell XVIII, ASoS)

 

There are similarities but the WW's body did not burst into flame when Sam stabbed him with dragonglass dagger, and the sound of ice breaking is missing in the first description... I don't know, it seems Mel has some agenda or is sent by someone, her behavour is really strange, 

The LH had a broken sword when he was finally left alone, but we do not hear of it being on fire or being a LB, even though it was possible for the Children to reforge his sword - the fiery sword would be more prominent in the stories, don't you think?  We hear a lot about the alliance between the FM and the Children, Children giving them obsidian weapons as a sort of tribute, but there is no story about a sword of fire wielded by the LH. 

 

 

The notion that the Children forged him a sword is strange , as the children didnt use or work steel.