sparking rhaegar's obsession

[northern_amnesia]

On 2017-6-16 at 3:59 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

Actually, I do discount Rhaegar managed to fit in visits to High Heart on his solo journeys to Summerhall. Look at the maps.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/High_Heart

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Summerhall

We really don't know how long the GoHH stayed at summerhall, but we know that rhaegar visited the riverlands at least two times: during harrenhal tourney and by the time Lyanna was "kidnapped". What really struck me is what the GoHH told Arya when she met her:

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"I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . ." She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

Why would she think that a "wolf child" a "blood child" was somehow involved in Summerhall? 

[Prof. Cecily]

42 minutes ago, northern_amnesia said:

We really don't know how long the GoHH stayed at summerhall, but we know that rhaegar visited the riverlands at least two times: during harrenhal tourney and by the time Lyanna was "kidnapped". What really struck me is what the GoHH told Arya when she met her:

Quote

45 minutes ago, northern_amnesia said:

"I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . ." She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

 

Why would she think that a "wolf child" a "blood child" was somehow involved in Summerhall? 

Are you suggesting Rhaegar did side trips to High Heart on those occasions?

An interesting thought.

It'll be fascinating to see what GRRM ends up telling us about Rhaegar in TWOW!

 

I don't understand why you think TGoHH links a wolf child (Arya) with Summerhall.

She is saying that she has enough grief of her own, acquired at Summerhall. 

And has no need of Arya's.

I find it significant the woman calls Arya "dark heart".

 

[northern_amnesia]

Quote

 

Are you suggesting Rhaegar did side trips to High Heart on those occasions?

An interesting thought.

It'll be fascinating to see what GRRM ends up telling us about Rhaegar in TWOW!

 

I don't understand why you think TGoHH links a wolf child (Arya) with Summerhall.

She is saying that she has enough grief of her own, acquired at Summerhall. 

And has no need of Arya's.

I find it significant the woman calls Arya "dark heart".

 

We know that Rhaegar went to the Riverlands with a group of men at the time Lyanna went missing.

I'm almost certain he was on a political plot against his father, that would explain why no one at court knew what he was doing at the Riverlands.
We also know that Brandon Stark was somewhere at the Riverlands but not in Riverrun, so my guess is that Rhaegar was on his way to meet with Brandon when he found Lyanna running away from her unwanted marriage. It would explain Brandon's reaction. 
High Heart is in the Riverlands, and since Rhaegar must have found out that a woods which foretold the prophecy, maybe he tried to found her and know more... it's not like the woman is hiding, he could have found her.

As for the Arya bit, you're probably right, but when she says "i need none of yours" she means yours as in your grief, or  as in your blood? If is the blood, then Summerhall could have a much darker side, other than a "ritual" gone wrong.

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

We know that Rhaegar went to the Riverlands with a group of men at the time Lyanna went missing.

Yes-

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As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

I'm almost certain he was on a political plot against his father, that would explain why no one at court knew what he was doing at the Riverlands.

Other than the whisperings of Varys, why do you think so?

We also know that Brandon Stark was somewhere at the Riverlands but not in Riverrun, so my guess is that Rhaegar was on his way to meet with Brandon when he found Lyanna running away from her unwanted marriage. It would explain Brandon's reaction. 

Brandon was going to meet Rhaegar, but Rhaegar decides to run off with his betrothed? 

Interesting. You could be right. Any sources from the texts to support this idea?

High Heart is in the Riverlands, and since Rhaegar must have found out that a woods which foretold the prophecy, maybe he tried to found her and know more... it's not like the woman is hiding, he could have found her.

Again, check out the distances! 

As for the Arya bit, you're probably right, but when she says "i need none of yours" she means yours as in your grief, or  as in your blood? If is the blood, then Summerhall could have a much darker side, other than a "ritual" gone wrong.

Your grief. It's a clearly written text.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

As some said, his family expected him to be the Prince Promised. And the Summerhall tragedy was matching the requirements of the prophecy. There was a lot of expectation on him. Aerys and Rhaella were married because of this prophecy. And it is not excluded he meet the wood witch and learned some from her. The witch Arya met: "I gorged on grief at Summerhall" she said.

Rhaegar returned sometimes to Summerhall, alone. And came back with songs of twilights and death of kings:

And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.

Barristan says he had a sense of doom upon him:

"there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense ..." The old man hesitated again. "... of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."

IMO, he knew what was coming. An that couldn't be avoided.

[Prof. Cecily]

 

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

IMO, he knew what was coming. An that couldn't be avoided.

Why do you think it couldn't be avoided?

Rhaegar is neither the first nor last person to be born as a result of a girl being raped by her brother.

Nor to grow up in an unhappy household, nor to be an emo.

I refuse to enter fanfic territory, except as a jape, yet... I can't help wondering what would have happened if Rhaegar had married the radiant Cersei in her first flower of youth and vitality, rather than the gentle Dornish princess Elia.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

22 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

 

Why do you think it couldn't be avoided?

Rhaegar is neither the first nor last person to be born as a result of a girl being raped by her brother.

Nor to grow up in an unhappy household, nor to be an emo.

I refuse to enter fanfic territory, except as a jape, yet... I can't help wondering what would have happened if Rhaegar had married the radiant Cersei in her first flower of youth and vitality, rather than the gentle Dornish princess Elia.

 

For what we know, Rhaegar melancholy had nothing to do with Elia or his family context. Cersei was a murderer at 10.

I suppose it couldn't be avoided because I suppose he would have done differently if he could. You may forget this assumption. But generally prophecies of doom are very difficult to avoid. Supposing the  prophecy and the Long Night are not fanfic altogether.

[Aegon VII]

2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

 

Why do you think it couldn't be avoided?

 

It would explain his melancholy nature better than competing theories. Imo the summerhall tragedy was not enough to make rhaegar sad his whole life. He didn't even know anyone who died there!  There has to be more to it.

rhaegar learning about the prophecy, either through woods witch or br ,and knowing it was inevitable (or at least fearing it) would explain his actions very well. It explains going after lyanna (needs her ice and his Fire for tptwp recipe), his line about aegon already having a song, and his line out of nowhere about how it seems he must be a warrior.

the fact that we see the gohh/ woods with and learn she trades prophecys for songs supports this 100%, as does the evidence that br reached out to people in westerosi through dreams. We know he did to bran it seems most likely he did to sweet robin and euron as well. 

We must wonder when br reaching out through dreams began. Eurons a decent age and I believe he had dreams as a young boy so br's been doing it for a while. For br to do this suggests he himself knows more about the prophecy and is guiding forces in westeros as a result of what he's seen/learned. So when did br learn all this? Many would estimate he learned this as LC or after deserting, but I believe it makes far more sense for br to have discovered the coming danger of the others while still in the realm, knew he would need to ultimately go north, and orchestrated sacrificing his honor to save the realm. He went to the wall on purpose and put the realm in good order in the process. We're talking about this in the "how powerful is br" thread so I thought I'd bridge the two topics as they are related.

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

For what we know, Rhaegar melancholy had nothing to do with Elia or his family context. Cersei was a murderer at 10.

I suppose it couldn't be avoided because I suppose he would have done differently if he could. You may forget this assumption. But generally prophecies of doom are very difficult to avoid. Supposing the  prophecy and the Long Night are not fanfic altogether.

Very true about Cersei. But her murder was sparked by the ambiguous nature of the prophecy she'd just heard. Yet another example of the pernicious influence of prophecies?

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But generally prophecies of doom are very difficult to avoid.

Oh, my dear @BalerionTheCat, how many doomsday prophecies have we listened to in the course of history?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

Do you remember the Mayan prophecy in 2012?

Yet here we are.

I, at least am sipping a tall  frosty cool glass of Paulaner and thinking over your comments.

I'm inclined to link the comet and the prophecies as devises GRRM uses to invite us to rethink their power.

Anyway, we'll find out soon enough.

I hope.

 

[Prof. Cecily]

5 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Spoiler

 

It would explain his melancholy nature better than competing theories. Imo the summerhall tragedy was not enough to make rhaegar sad his whole life. He didn't even know anyone who died there!  There has to be more to it.

rhaegar learning about the prophecy, either through woods witch or br ,and knowing it was inevitable (or at least fearing it) would explain his actions very well. It explains going after lyanna (needs her ice and his Fire for tptwp recipe), his line about aegon already having a song, and his line out of nowhere about how it seems he must be a warrior.

the fact that we see the gohh/ woods with and learn she trades prophecys for songs supports this 100%, as does the evidence that br reached out to people in westerosi through dreams. We know he did to bran it seems most likely he did to sweet robin and euron as well. 

We must wonder when br reaching out through dreams began. Eurons a decent age and I believe he had dreams as a young boy so br's been doing it for a while. For br to do this suggests he himself knows more about the prophecy and is guiding forces in westeros as a result of what he's seen/learned. So when did br learn all this? Many would estimate he learned this as LC or after deserting, but I believe it makes far more sense for br to have discovered the coming danger of the others while still in the realm, knew he would need to ultimately go north, and orchestrated sacrificing his honor to save the realm. He went to the wall on purpose and put the realm in good order in the process. We're talking about this in the "how powerful is br" thread so I thought I'd bridge the two topics as they are related.

 

 

So it's the work of BR all along?

 

[Aegon VII]

12 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

So it's the work of BR all along?

 

For rhaegar I think the evidence suggests that it's some combination of br and the woods witch. Unfortunately we don't know exactly the dynamics of how that communication worked. Grrm has set the precedent of the ww/gohh giving visions for songs and being at summerhall. He has also shown us br reaches out through dreams to try to guide people, arguably to help the realm against the others. So I believe rhaegar was getting info from one or both of these methods, though I couldn't be more specific than that.

I do like the idea of rhaegar getting the info from gohh and creating Jenny's song/asoiaf. Creating a song that was in fact the prophecy itself without others knowing it's true meaning.

[BalerionTheCat]

49 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Oh, my dear @BalerionTheCat, how many doomsday prophecies have we listened to in the course of history?

Our world doesn't believe in doomsday prophecies. Very few people anyway. And no leader would take a catastrophic decision on account of a prophecy. But this world has dragons, long winter, relatively believable records of the Long Night. Prophecies have much more weight than in our world. And the point here is what Rhaegar was believing?

48 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

So it's the work of BR all along?

20 years ago BR was a greenseer. He certainly was observing Rhaegar, as well as Ned and Lyanna. I believe he communicated with the wood witch. Maybe he sent her. But I don't think Rhaegar was aware of him. But Lyanna maybe communicated with BR thru Winterfeel weirwood.

[Prof. Cecily]

31 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

And the point here is what Rhaegar was believing?

A fair point, though I'd go farther and say the point is what GRRM wants to teach us via this literary devise.

 

33 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

20 years ago BR was a greenseer. He certainly was observing Rhaegar, as well as Ned and Lyanna. I believe he communicated with the wood witch. Maybe he sent her. But I don't think Rhaegar was aware of him. But Lyanna maybe communicated with BR thru Winterfeel weirwood.

Ah, I am most ignorant about the theories and discussions about BR.

You've convinced me I must learn more about him!

My copy of the Dunk and Egg novellas should arrive next week, and I'll be reading them in rehearsal breaks.

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Spoiler

Kings landing was never meant to be sacked at this time, and no one expected a sack either. Ned expected to take the city peacefully (in a seige-way), but obviously Tywin beat him to that. Technically, those three kingsguard should stay where strength is the most weakest. Rhaegar already had three other kingsguard at the trident, and Elia and her kids had Jaime, all of the city watch, and other tagaeryen loyalists soldiers at kings landing at the time. Whereas Lyanna had a few servents at best, in a deserted tower in Dorne. So three kingsguard stayed at the tower of joy, expecting Aerys and Aegon to remain safe in Kings Landing, and it wasn't until after their deaths that they considered Jon the rightful heir or King.

And I don't see how Aegon could have been smuggled out of Kings Landing, when no one, not even Varys would have been aware of Tywin sacking the city beforehand.

Why do you exclude Varys? And Pycelle?

I am not an Aegon fan, though it WOULD be a turn-up for the books!

 

1 hour ago, Aegon VII said:

For rhaegar I think the evidence suggests that it's some combination of br and the woods witch. Unfortunately we don't know exactly the dynamics of how that communication worked. Grrm has set the precedent of the ww/gohh giving visions for songs and being at summerhall. He has also shown us br reaches out through dreams to try to guide people, arguably to help the realm against the others. So I believe rhaegar was getting info from one or both of these methods, though I couldn't be more specific than that.

I do like the idea of rhaegar getting the info from gohh and creating Jenny's song/asoiaf. Creating a song that was in fact the prophecy itself without others knowing it's true meaning.

Sweet.

And just to make it bittersweet, it's just a song!

I'm reminded of the Stones and the Beatles denying their lyrics had wierd double and treble meanings.

And also of the original lyrics of Yesterday...

[BalerionTheCat]

31 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

You've convinced me I must learn more about him!

We know BR had an eye on the Starks. BR to Bran:

I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream.

So why not Lyanna and Jon too? But we must be careful to not overestimate his meddling in Westeros affairs. It is frequently assumed he controls the Old Bear raven.

[Prof. Cecily]

11 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

We know BR had an eye on the Starks. BR to Bran:

I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream.

So why not Lyanna and Jon too? But we must be careful to not overestimate his meddling in Westeros affairs. It is frequently assumed he controls the Old Bear raven.

I think you're about being careful not to overestimate his meddling.

After all, as Old Nan says:

Quote

"Crows are all liars," 

While I find the Bran chapters to be extraordinary reading, I can't help being aware of a fundamental "wrongness" to what is being done to him. I couldn't put a finger on a anything specific, unless to mention that pathetic passsage with Hodor

Quote

Bran remembered a time when no one could climb as good as him, not even Robb or Jon. Part of him wanted to shout at them for leaving him, and another part wanted to cry. He was almost a man grown, though, so he said nothing.

But after they were gone, he slipped inside Hodor's skin and followed them.The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

I can see I must read more to get a better understanding of all this.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

41 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

While I find the Bran chapters to be extraordinary reading, I can't help being aware of a fundamental "wrongness" to what is being done to him. I couldn't put a finger on a anything specific, unless to mention that pathetic passsage with Hodor

I agree. Bran seems to not understand what wrong he is doing to Hodor. Maybe he will understand later and feel bad. Maybe it is to explain what it means, when someone else will do it with evil intent.

For "what is being done to him", IMO, it is no worse that what befell the victims of the kings' wars. Or Lyanna.

[Prof. Cecily]

8 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I agree. Bran seems to not understand what wrong he is doing to Hodor. Maybe he will understand later and feel bad. Maybe it is to explain what it means, when someone else will do it with evil intent.

For "what is being done to him", IMO, it is no worse that what befell the victims of the kings' wars. Or Lyanna.

or the Red Wedding,  the horses.,,,

So much horror.

You're familiar with this cheap joke?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4a/d0/fd/4ad0fd29912b9c214bf3e5e144557f09.jpg

[BalerionTheCat]

41 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

or the Red Wedding,  the horses.,,,

So much horror.

You're familiar with this cheap joke?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4a/d0/fd/4ad0fd29912b9c214bf3e5e144557f09.jpg

No. It's a good one. Spot on. Thanks.