Meera of Tarth Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 13 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said: I disagree, Tyrion could have refused to marry Sansa, but he didn't. If he chose to marry her the payoff was WF. There was no payoff for Sansa. None. If she produced an male heir, that would be the end of her. She was forcibly married into the family that destroyed hers. Sandor on the other hand, was protective, and at times gentle with her when at no time did he have to be. If Tyrion treated Sansa without cruelty it was out of respect to Winterfell, not Sansa. by forced I mean it was out of love. Of course Sansa's situation was much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said: I disagree, Tyrion could have refused to marry Sansa, but he didn't. If he chose to marry her the payoff was WF. There was no payoff for Sansa. None. If she produced an male heir, that would be the end of her. She was forcibly married into the family that destroyed hers. Sandor on the other hand, was protective, and at times gentle with her when at no time did he have to be. If Tyrion treated Sansa without cruelty it was out of respect to Winterfell, not Sansa. I agree that the way Tyrion accepts the idea of marrying Sansa does not look good for him. He has such a need for recognition, being a lord of a paramount House was a major temptation. It's not so much a marriage but an act of war to permanently eliminate House Stark and have Lannisters controlling both the West and the North. I do think Tyrion isn't a monster for this though. I understand his neediness arises from his severe abuse at the hands of Tywin and Cersei. I think the bedding scene evokes for him the memory of Tysha and her rape that has obviously deeply affected him. It is a form of rape to force someone to rape another, though I'm not arguing that Tyrion was equally traumatized as Tysha in that instance. She's even mentioned in the scene in their conversation. It isn't Tyrion's shining moment. The scene is two people with zero chemistry feeling extremely vulnerable. Tyrion decides that he doesn't want a repeat of raping his wife and swears he won't without her consent. Overtime he does resist the gossip, mocking, and pressure from his father to force Sansa. It's only with that time and space that Sansa comes to see Tyrion as kinder because he kept his word. He's still part of the enemy family and they have nothing in common, but at bare minimum she can see he didn't cave to pressure to exert his "rights." So really I think it's the memory of Tysha that is his motivation for not pressing the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseofthedirewolves Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said: Red herring, Tyrion wasn't married off to Bran or Jon Snow as an avenue to get WF. No you pointed out that Tyrion's only reason to be kind to Sansa is because of Winterfell which I am disputing seeing that he was also kind to Bran and Jon Snow loooong before Winterfell was a possibility for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Tywin told Tyrion that once he married Sansa he must take her maidenhead. As this did not happen on the wedding night, and all of KL knew about it, he still knew it needed to happen. It was a matter of time before not being cruel to her turned into something else. He wanted WF and Sansa's maidenhead was the gatekeeper. Sansa understood this too and wanted to keep him at bay. If being polite but frosty would work, then she was polite. The Hound did not ask her for WF, he wanted to steal her for his own and protect from her harm, from Tyrion, who he hates. Sansa liked the dangerous Hound, not the whining, feeling sorry for himself Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhae_Valarie Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 My personal theory: There is something important coming up that has something to do with Sansa's unreliable memory. It fits the pattern of George'e three fold revelation strategy. The subtle hint was Sansa remembering the the wrong name for Joffrey's sword. The more obvious hint was the Unkiss. Which means that there is going to be an obvious instance that will have some importance to the story. Any theories on what it will be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Nasty LongRider said: Tywin told Tyrion that once he married Sansa he must take her maidenhead. As this did not happen on the wedding night, and all of KL knew about it, he still knew it needed to happen. It was a matter of time before not being cruel to her turned into something else. He wanted WF and Sansa's maidenhead was the gatekeeper. Sansa understood this too and wanted to keep him at bay. If being polite but frosty would work, then she was polite. The Hound did not ask her for WF, he wanted to steal her for his own and protect from her harm, from Tyrion, who he hates. Sansa liked the dangerous Hound, not the whining, feeling sorry for himself Tyrion. Yep, and let's not forget Tyrion made her strip and groped her, and when she's troubled by the memory of that, she thinks of Sandor! Sandor replaces the bad memory of Tyrion, she thinks Tyrion lied when he said he could be good to her. Then she wonders where Sandor is. Sandor, the one who tells her the truth. So then she goes from this to replacing Tyrion with Sandor in the marriage bed, her marriage bed. Tyrion acts out of self-interest, he uses the beating (he knew had been going on before, he referred to her as "Joffrey's plaything") to get Shae there (endangering her). Sandor did it for Sansa. He always did it for her, and never expected a thing in return. And he wouldn't even kiss her when he thought she didn't want him to. So who gets the kiss that comes from her heart... the one who let her make the choice. (It's not an accident it worked out that way.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: Romanticizing a traumatic memory in her head and convincing herself that the (Unkiss) happened while continuing to think of the Hound when she needs his protection is what led to Sansa becoming infatuated. Now, you're just repeating and not answering the illogic and glaring issues with your claim. She does not romanticise any traumatic memories with other men. She has no romantic memories of any of the men who actually and truly hurt her, emotionally and physically, or truly wished to harm her. None. Nada; Zero. You claim that romanticising and escaping traumatic reality is typical for Sansa. If that's true, then we actually should see more of this, from Joffrey chopping her father's head off, to every member of the KG but Sandor and Marillion. If her mind is fully capable of regarding actual abuse, malice and awfulness with poignant clairty, then her mind certainly can handle Sandor's behavior on the night of the Blackwater. She does not romanticise any traumatic memories with other protectors. None. Nada. Zero. You keep claiming that she "needs" his protection, while trying to avoid the obvious question that you should be asking yourself - what makes Sandor so special that only his protection is the one she desires so much that she would romanticise a traumatic memory when she has not romanticised any traumatic event with any other guy? 3 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: (First example is with Joffrey from the time of Lady's execution to her father's). Her altered memory allows her to continue her infatuation for him because Sansa STILL CRAVES that pretty song that he represents to her. After Ned's beheading it wasn't necessary for Sansa to maintain an altered view of Joffrey. She hated him. She no longer believed in the pretty songs. HER infatuation ENDED. Hmmm, doesn't help your case the way you have put it. You deny Sansa was attracted to the Hound before the Unkiss. You have claimed it was a "rebound" thing over Loras. So, she can hardly be altering her memory to CONTINUE her "infatuation" with the Hound then, right? With Joffrey - already infatuated, "alters memory" to continue remaining infuated because she craves the pretty song, until he goes and traumatize her by having her father's head cut off and she hates him all of a sudden. With Sandor - "traumatizes" her by pushing her to sit down on her bed and hold a dagger to her throat for a pretty song, while allegedly she has no feelings for him nor craves a pretty song with him, but instead of hating him she alters her memory and falls in love with him. Not much of an analogy, but the opposite happens then, right? BTW - Joffrey was not the one who demanded Lady killed, nor was the one who killed her. 4 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: This is not the case with the Hound. It is STILL NECESSARY for her to maintain her altered memory concerning him because she STILL NEEDS his protection. Once she doesn't need the Hound anymore, her infatuation will END. Why him? Why does she need his protection in particular so much? What's so special about him when she has and she turns to other protectors she doesn't fantasise about. You do realize that in the dream of the riot, Sandor (the man who actually saved her) is absent and she desires Dontos to help her, right? 4 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: His absence allows her to continue with her romanticizing. He's not there to dispel it. She can convince herself of him passionately making out with her without him being there to hit her in the face with the truth. "Absence makes the infatuation grow stronger." So, if I understand you correctly, she's not infatuated with him. He traumatizes her and leaves immediately and is absent. And now she continues to romanticise a man she hasn't romanticised before and to whom she never looked nor dreamed for protection before he traumatized her. You're not making any sense at all. There's no logic whatsoever in your assertions. Your assertions constantly contradict one another, nor fit the facts, nor fit the other patterns, and I can only conclude you're making such pretzel logic out of it, because you don't want to admit that Sansa may have actual genuine attraction for him, because you don't want to admit that what he did the night of the Blackwater wasn't as traumatizing to her as everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 6 hours ago, zandru said: Huh? Imagining that an old dog is her DIREWOLF is Sansa thinking of Sandor? Why then didn't Sansa say "I wish you were the Hound"? or "I wish you were Sandor Clegane"? Perhaps you did this subconsciously, but notice how you've skewed GRRM's meaning by using the word 'dog' instead of 'hound', as it stands in the text, almost as if you're trying on some level to suppress GRRM's allusion to the 'Hound'! To answer your question, 'why didn't Sansa say...'; I don't know -- it's so flummoxing, the way GRRM prefers to take the implicit poetic instead of explicit prosaic route! It would be great if he could just say what he means for once, instead of acting all coy, so we could just pack up this project and go off to do something more productive. But it's worth noting she'd already been thinking of Sandor even before falling asleep with the hound. Here's another question for you; in that scene I quoted in its entirety for you above, why didn't GRRM call the canine in question a 'dog' instead of a 'hound' in order to avoid this misunderstanding? And why does he call Catelyn by the nickname 'Cat', unavoidably introducing the idea of cats vs. dogs/wolves? Because he does these tricksy things deliberately, and there's no doubt in my mind that he wanted thereby to imply that Sansa was thinking of the Hound, and additionally, he was encouraging the reader to make that association. She falls asleep with her arms around a hound with a 'rasping tongue'. Is it any surprise then that she dreams of another Hound with a 'rasping tongue voice'? The implication of her gesture embracing the 'sad old hound' and ruffling his fur is that she's fond of hounds, and Hounds. Perhaps, according to your preferred version, she should have rather said, 'You're nothing but a hound dog -- and you ain't no friend of mine..!' Quote Listen, Lady and the Hound were total opposites. The greatest trauma in Sansa's life besides the deaths of her parents was the death of her direwolf Lady. Sandor is a kind of substitute direwolf figure. A substitute is not an equivalent, nor can it ever make up for the loss. She will always be heartbroken about what happened to Lady. Also consider that the bond between the warg and the wolf is described as a 'marriage,' so there are unavoidable sexual overtones to warging, and therefore by implication to the Sansa-Sandor relationship. Quote Lady was tame and walked on a leash at Sansa's command. Sandor is beyond her control or command. Lady was small* and delicate; Sandor huge, rough, and harsh. Sandor also makes a distinction between dogs (and metaphorically himself) and wolves (Starks) - but he never considers Sansa to be a "wolf", just a talking parrot or caged bird. Part of the wolf remains in the warg (even after death); and vice versa. Lady is alive within Sansa! Quote I know a lot of folks like to strain potential metaphors in the text well beyond sense, and I'd say this is one of them. --------- Sugar, it's no strain for me! 'Beyond sense' is debatable. I'm suspicious of those who spontaneously offer themselves up as the supreme arbiters of the appropriate border between the literal and the metaphorical in the realm of fiction. Quote * Lady never grew to be huge, like the other Starks' wolves, because she died so young. And yet in the Eyrie, Sansa is aware of the wind howling like a wolf, a 'ghost wolf, big as mountains'. Lady is a ghost wolf, just in a different way to Ghost! He's a hound; she's a direwolf -- same same; San San! Where is the text you were referencing regarding Sandor's metaphorical distinction between dogs and wolves? Please quote, should you wish to explore further. Sandor never tried to rape her. His bark is worse than his bite -- and Sansa instinctively knows this. Arya, a much better judge of character than her sister, chose not to kill the Hound for just this reason. The real problem in Sansa's life currently is not Sandor; it's Littlefinger -- however, she is yet to realize that in contrast to Sandor, the bite of the latter is worse than his bark, which is an infinitely more terrifying prospect than the former. The other thing is that Sansa's taste in men has a tendency to err on the 'bad boy' side, so the idea that on the basis of her former trauma she would never be attracted to someone potentially risky again is not borne out by the text. I mean, Joffrey, Loras, Sandor, and now Littlefinger! 30 minutes ago, Le Cygne said: Tyrion acts out of his self-interests, he uses the beating (which he knew had been going on before, he referred to her as "Joffrey's plaything") to get Shae there, which endangered her. What do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseofthedirewolves Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 32 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: Now, you're just repeating and not answering the illogic and glaring issues with your claim. She does not romanticise any traumatic memories with other men. She has no romantic memories of any of the men who actually and truly hurt her, emotionally and physically, or truly wished to harm her. None. Nada; Zero. You claim that romanticising and escaping traumatic reality is typical for Sansa. If that's true, then we actually should see more of this, from Joffrey chopping her father's head off, to every member of the KG but Sandor and Marillion. If her mind is fully capable of regarding actual abuse, malice and awfulness with poignant clairty, then her mind certainly can handle Sandor's behavior on the night of the Blackwater. She does not romanticise any traumatic memories with other protectors. None. Nada. Zero. You keep claiming that she "needs" his protection, while trying to avoid the obvious question that you should be asking yourself - what makes Sandor so special that only his protection is the one she desires so much that she would romanticise a traumatic memory when she has not romanticised any traumatic event with any other guy? Hmmm, doesn't help your case the way you have put it. You deny Sansa was attracted to the Hound before the Unkiss. You have claimed it was a "rebound" thing over Loras. So, she can hardly be altering her memory to CONTINUE her "infatuation" with the Hound then, right? With Joffrey - already infatuated, "alters memory" to continue remaining infuated because she craves the pretty song, until he goes and traumatize her by having her father's head cut off and she hates him all of a sudden. With Sandor - "traumatizes" her by pushing her to sit down on her bed and hold a dagger to her throat for a pretty song, while allegedly she has no feelings for him nor craves a pretty song with him, but instead of hating him she alters her memory and falls in love with him. Not much of an analogy, but the opposite happens then, right? BTW - Joffrey was not the one who demanded Lady killed, nor was the one who killed her. Why him? Why does she need his protection in particular so much? What's so special about him when she has and she turns to other protectors she doesn't fantasise about. You do realize that in the dream of the riot, Sandor (the man who actually saved her) is absent and she desires Dontos to help her, right? So, if I understand you correctly, she's not infatuated with him. He traumatizes her and leaves immediately and is absent. And now she continues to romanticise a man she hasn't romanticised before and to whom she never looked nor dreamed for protection before he traumatized her. You're not making any sense at all. There's no logic whatsoever in your assertions. Your assertions constantly contradict one another, nor fit the facts, nor fit the other patterns, and I can only conclude you're making such pretzel logic out of it, because you don't want to admit that Sansa may have actual genuine attraction for him, because you don't want to admit that what he did the night of the Blackwater wasn't as traumatizing to her as everything else. "She does not romanticise any traumatic memories with other protectors. None. Nada. Zero. You keep claiming that she "needs" his protection, while trying to avoid the obvious question that you should be asking yourself - what makes Sandor so special that only his protection is the one she desires so much that she would romanticise a traumatic memory when she has not romanticised any traumatic event with any other guy?" This question has already been answered. MORE THAN ONCE. •Tyrion doesn't represent anything to her. He was kind but that's it. He's still a Lannister. She doesn't have any reason to alter memories about him. She doesn't need him. •She was infatuated with Joffrey and had her own fantasies about him until he killed her father and ended her infatuation. •Ser Dontos is her friend and helps her but he does not symbolize a protector. He's a silly drunk knight (yes she calls him Florian) but he ends up murdered. •Littlefinger is currently molesting her. Her coping of that is evident in the way that she separates him into two different people in her mind. One that she trusts. And one that she does not trust. Also she also has a major case of Stockholm syndrome with him. In this prolonged period of intense trauma for Sansa, (the Hound) was also a fierce warrior (literally) feared by other men, and in him she found the brute strength that she craved for herself, but lacked. He frightened her, but he had the ability to protect her when Sansa was unable to protect herself. No one could beat or hurt the Hound like they hurt her. They couldn't strip him and humiliate him like they did to her. So she substituted the Hound in place of her fantasy gallant knights that she was now disillusioned about NONE OF THE OTHER GUYS REPRESENT THIS TO HER. The Hound is a protector that she still needs. Her mind turns her trauma into the Unkiss so that she can maintain her pleasant view of him as her protector. "BTW - Joffrey was not the one who demanded Lady killed, nor was the one who killed her." •IT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that SANSA BLAMED him for it BEFORE repressing his role in the events leading to Lady's death and deciding to hate only Cersei and Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Sugar, it's no strain for me! I'm not going to fight you on the metaphorical ground; that isn't my home turf. And I really don't care for the "San San" model, so I won't debate you there. Pending further books, it's still up in the air, and each reader, ravenous or otherwise, is free to draw their own conclusions until more information is forthcoming. But Sandor told Arya "Do you know what dogs do to wolves?" and it resonates with Arya thereafter. They're brothers (as Sandor notes) but different. And observe how much he hates his own brother. Could that be a metaphor?? Sansa is not attracted to "bad boys" - she's attracted to "pretty boys" who will make her powerful and loved. Pretty Joffrey with his lovely lips. Ser Loras the Rose petal knight. She's repulsed by the Hound. For that matter, she's repulsed by Petyr Baelish, the first good sense she's shown (although she's Stockholmed to like half of him). It's always bothered me that in Sansa's first meeting with the Hound, she recoils, tears out of his grasp, and runs to the safety of her direwolf, Lady. This action gets Sandor banished for frightening her. So ... she goes to apologize to Ser Illyn, who probably couldn't care less that she looked at him. Never an apology to Sandor. Never a thank you when he saves her life. In fact, Sansa doesn't even NOTICE much of the time: Joff's name day, when he corroborates her sudden idea of bad luck on a nameday (she congratulates herself on how brilliant she was to have hit upon that one, not aware of the Hound's backing her up). Catching her on the serpentine before she fell. Catching her on the roof. (These were the days before handrails.) And of course, her busy busy schedule of watching clouds move across the sky, being bathed by servants, being dressed by servants, having her hair done by servants, etc precluded Sansa from saying a word of thanks when he rescued her, saving her life and maidenhood (and took a wound himself) in the riot. What's my point? I think Sansa thinks of the Hound as more of an all-purpose teddy bear. As I said, she likes the idea of the Hound a lot more than the man, Sandor Clegane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: 6 hours ago, zandru said: Huh? Imagining that an old dog is her DIREWOLF is Sansa thinking of Sandor? Why then didn't Sansa say "I wish you were the Hound"? or "I wish you were Sandor Clegane"? Perhaps you did this subconsciously, but notice how you've skewed GRRM's meaning by using the word 'dog' instead of 'hound', as it stands in the text, almost as if you're trying on some level to suppress GRRM's allusion to the 'Hound'! Not to mention we have been repeated instances of dogs and wolves juxtaposed with each other. Quote Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. "A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table," she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread. "She's not a dog, she's a direwolf," Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. "Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want." The septa was not appeased. "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya." She scowled. Quote The king was in no mood for more argument. "Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it." Ned kills Lady and immediately Sandor comes riding up with Mycah. Two innocent deaths here. Remember also Sansa mistook Sandor for her father before she saw his face. Quote "Do you know what dogs do to wolves?" -- Protect them on their journey through the Riverlands as it turns out. Quote Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change." That's only a few of the mentions of dogs and wolves. Dogs are also the domesticated descendants of wolves and they can still mate. Then there's this little gem of Sansa initially pictures puppies, not children in her marriage to Willas. And one of her children looks like Arya and just so happens the Hound gets mistaken for Arya's father. Quote She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Not to mention we have been repeated instances of dogs and wolves juxtaposed with each other. Frankly, I'm not sure I understand the point of all this quoted text which follows. But don't let me stop you. Like I said, I'm not big on the overstrained metaphor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Nice dog references! Thought I'd add this one, since it calls back to a certain dog kiss (licking her face!) Hound in bed: He was sleeping in my bed.... He yanked her closer, and for a minute she thought he meant to kiss her... Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. hound in bed: Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur. Also a bonus hound reference: There were no horses on the mountain, no hounds to bark and growl, no knights training in the yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 hour ago, zandru said: Frankly, I'm not sure I understand the point of all this quoted text which follows. But don't let me stop you. Like I said, I'm not big on the overstrained metaphor. The point is... George is repeatedly hammering us with an association so that must mean it's important. We should probably pay attention to things we see over and over. Very specifically this dog-wolf juxtaposition happens in reference to Lady / Sandor. I'm sorry you don't get the idea of metaphor in literature and ravenous reader I think laid it out pretty well. If you don't see it, you don't see it. 16 minutes ago, Le Cygne said: Nice dog references! Thought I'd add this one, since it calls back to a certain dog kiss (licking her face!) Hound in bed: He was sleeping in my bed.... He yanked her closer, and for a minute she thought he meant to kiss her... Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. hound in bed: Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur. Also a bonus hound reference: There were no horses on the mountain, no hounds to bark and growl, no knights training in the yard. Very nice. I'll see your quote and raise you another! Quote By the time they finally reached her father's castle, Lady Myranda was drowsing too, and Alayne was dreaming of her bed. It will be a featherbed, she told herself, soft and warm and deep, piled high with furs. I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard. And later there will be a feast, with music and dancing. After the deathly silence of the Eyrie, she yearned for shouts and laughter. All 3 have associations with the Hound. If you recall, Sansa overheard the washerwomen gossiping and it involved the Hound (except she thought they were actually talking about fighting skill : Quote Ser Osmund and his brothers had become great favorites about the castle; they were always ready with a smile and a jest, and got on with grooms and huntsmen as well as they did with knights and squires. With the serving wenches they got on best of all, it was gossiped. Of late Ser Osmund had taken Sandor Clegane's place by Joffrey's side, and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster. If that was so, she wondered why she had never once heard of these Kettleblacks before Ser Osmund was named to the Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 6 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: Tyrion doesn't represent anything to her. He was kind but that's it. He's still a Lannister. And yet he appears in the dream you call a rape-nightmare 6 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: Ser Dontos is her friend and helps her but he does not symbolize a protector. Then why does she look for Dontos to save her from the mob-dream? 6 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: Also she also has a major case of Stockholm syndrome with him. Stockholm syndrome is another word for trauma-bonding, with stockholm only used in hostage taking situations. And it's the fashion word for plenty of POV characters, often in totally wrongly applied situations. Trauma-bonding is the term used within an abusive relationship (family, guardians and partners). While stockholm is a famous term (and horribly misunderstood), as a phenomenon it rarely happens. Trauma-bonding is an extremely intense hormonal bond formed in a relationship where the abuser switches between violence (putting the victim in physical danger, or threaten to harm or kill them) and rewarding. It gives the victim the illusion that they are responsible on how they are treated by the abuser, and that if they please the abuser and be good, they lower the risk of harm or death. This however occurs on a subconscioius level. The victim will experience it as the abuser needing them and becomes extremely empathic towards the abuser (subconscious it's how people aim to predict the mood the abuser is in). Such a bond is stronger even than a healthy love bond. As a result, the victim cannot bear the idea of separation, and if they are separated from the abuser they will attempt to return to them. Most hostage or captor-prisoner relationships lack such a dynamic, and therefore no stockholm ensues. The only situation that Sansa was in for us to begin to consider the term Stockholm was when she was a hostage at the Red Keep and abused by Joffrey. However, he only abuses (never rewards) and that for events that are completely outside her power and control. And even when she attempts to placate him he does not reward her. Hence, she never feels that she can't do without Joffrey once the abuse starts, and has no stockholm. Not even the attempts to placate Joffrey can be called evidence fo Stockholm, because she doesn't do this to make him love her, nor out of misguided empathy with him, let alone for him. While Littlefinger is definitely grooming her, he has never been violent towards her that she knows of. She does not display placating behavior towards him to prevent violence from him. She does not even empathize with him. And if somebody were to take her away from him, she won't be overcome with the strong compulsion to return to him. So, neither stockholm,nor trauma-bond is in evidence. There is only one situation and one POV who qualifies for Stockholm, and that is Theon and only in relation to Ramsay. 6 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: In this prolonged period of intense trauma for Sansa, (the Hound) was also a fierce warrior (literally) feared by other men, and in him she found the brute strength that she craved for herself, but lacked. He frightened her, but he had the ability to protect her when Sansa was unable to protect herself. No one could beat or hurt the Hound like they hurt her. They couldn't strip him and humiliate him like they did to her. So she substituted the Hound in place of her fantasy gallant knights that she was now disillusioned about This is pure speculation that is not even actually backed up by text. After he saved her from a mob, and she dreams of it, he is not present in the dream and she's looking for Dontos (the foolish, fat, drunk). She also knew that the Hound's protection of her against Joffrey was limited and had little to do with brute strength, but depends entirely on political power. Her disillusion with knights is not that they fail to protect her, but that they are actively complicits in abusing her. 6 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: •IT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that SANSA BLAMED him for it BEFORE repressing his role in the events leading to Lady's death and deciding to hate only Cersei and Arya. Show me text where she ever blamed Joffrey for Lady's death before she repressed it? She always blamed Arya, even while the incident at the Trident took place. 6 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said: NONE OF THE OTHER GUYS REPRESENT THIS TO HER. The Hound is a protector that she still needs. Her mind turns her trauma into the Unkiss so that she can maintain her pleasant view of him as her protector. So, far you have failed to prove your claim. Reasserting it is not evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 9 hours ago, sweetsunray said: You deny Sansa was attracted to the Hound before the Unkiss. You have claimed it was a "rebound" thing over Loras. So, she can hardly be altering her memory to CONTINUE her "infatuation" with the Hound then, right? With Joffrey - already infatuated, "alters memory" to continue remaining infuated because she craves the pretty song, until he goes and traumatize her by having her father's head cut off and she hates him all of a sudden. With Sandor - "traumatizes" her by pushing her to sit down on her bed and hold a dagger to her throat for a pretty song, while allegedly she has no feelings for him nor craves a pretty song with him, but instead of hating him she alters her memory and falls in love with him. Not much of an analogy, but the opposite happens then, right? I had missed those details! It's true. She can't continue an infatuation with someone she is not already infatuated with. Looks like this alteration of her mind has some peculiarities depending on the case! 2 hours ago, sweetsunray said: And yet he appears in the dream you call a rape-nightmare Then why does she look for Dontos to save her from the mob-dream? Stockholm syndrome <snip> There is only one situation and one POV who qualifies for Stockholm, and that is Theon and only in relation to Ramsay. This is pure speculation that is not even actually backed up by text. Show me text where she ever blamed Joffrey for Lady's death before she repressed it? She always blamed Arya, even while the incident at the Trident took place. I really like your last post, many details... these last questions are very interesting! I'll follow the thread. As a reader, your back and forth with @Houseofthedirewolves is so interesting to read! 8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Not to mention we have been repeated instances of dogs and wolves juxtaposed with each other. Get her a dog, she'll be happier with it.... Good catch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 10 hours ago, Le Cygne said: Sandor, the one who tells her the truth. So then she goes from this to replacing Tyrion with Sandor in the marriage bed, her marriage bed. Except Sansa associates "the marriage bed" with one thing and one thing only in that dream: the threat of rape. If Sandor is there, it's because her subconscious links him with her terror of being raped, just as her subconscious links Joffrey and Robb's bloody, violent deaths. Some part of her knows very well the Hound assaulted her at Blackwater with rape on his mind, even if he thought better of it--as the Hound himself later admits to Arya when he says unprompted that he meant to rape Sansa, that he should have "taken her" and "fucked her bloody" that night--even if she lies to herself in waking life about how beautiful and romantic it was, much like Sansa lies to herself about all manner of unpleasant truths. Remember what the Hound told her in ACOK? "But one day I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no." That's a promise isn't it? Sansa's subsconscious sure thinks so, because when she dreams of Tyrion (potential rapist) turning into the Hound (potential rapist) into her bed, those are the words she puts into Dream Hound's mouth: "I'll have a song from you." Meaning "I'm going to rape you now, and there's nothing you can do about it." The Hound also links taking the song from Sansa with rape: "I took the song, she never gave it. I meant to take her, too. I should have." Moreover, the fear of the Hound raping her is so great in the dream that it prompts Sansa to wake. Apparently, reliving Joffrey's death, seeing Robb bleed out, and remembering her horrifying wedding night weren't enough to prompt her to wake from her nightmare, but her fear of being raped by the Hound? Yup, that'll do it right quick. There also seems to be an escalation in horror over the course of the dream: seeing Joffrey die --> seeing Robb die --> preparing to be raped by Tyrion --> imminently about to be raped by the Hound --> waking up. Sansa subconsciously ranks her terror of the Hound raping her as more traumatizing than imagining Robb die, which gives the reader some idea as to how much the prospect terrifies her and how traumatized she was at Blackwater. GRRM has made a big deal out of Sansa lying to herself about pretty much everything she doesn't like until forced to do so otherwise. She does it with Joffrey (Mycah attacked Joffrey, her prince loves her). She does it with Littlefinger ("Littlefinger" is only a mask gentle, funny "Petyr" has to wear). And she's doing it with the Hound (the Hound is a protector who would never hurt her who kissed her at Blackwater). In none of these instances is it a good or positive thing. In fact, Sansa's continued failure through AFFC to stop lying to herself does not bode well for her future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 And now she wants to dream a sweet dream and wake to dogs barking. And dogs barked just before she had her dream of him, too. GRRM even managed to associate dogs with orgasms for her. He's so good at this. There's a song about stealing a sweet kiss with a blade from a fair maid from Gulltown, sung just before Sandor re-enters the story, worded the same way when Dunk and Sandor dig a grave. Jon held his blade to Ygritte's throat, too. He uses the same symbolism throughout the story. Sansa remembers Sandor's dagger (dick). Sandor remembers Sansa's song (orgasm). And she wanted to pet him! "He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog who tries to bite any hand that tries to pet him"! And then she runs off digging his ferocity. Later she pets the hound in bed, before she dreams of the Hound in bed. And she misses hounds to bark and growl. He turns her on. He's just the ticket for her, and she knows it. And in typical Sansa fashion, she wraps it all up with a kiss. The most romantic of things, a kiss. She's enjoying this, it brings her happiness, there's a deep connection between them. This is a classic sexual awakening tale, based on Beauty and the Beast, and he's done such a wonderful job writing it, and he rewards the reader who takes a closer look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: All 3 have associations with the Hound. If you recall, Sansa overheard the washerwomen gossiping and it involved the Hound (except she thought they were actually talking about fighting skill : So, Sansa thinks the washerwomen are singing the praise of the Kettlebacks, because the Kettleback is "faster". Sounds to me the washerwoman was actually complaining about Kettleback's inexperience and singing praise of Sandor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Sandor is Sansa's go-to guy to think of for comfort when other men are bad to her. She has very different reactions to Sandor than to other men, compare and contrast: Sandor (makes her sing a song) - she caresses his face (by "instinct," that is how she truly feels), puts on his cloak, lay awake in bed at night thinking about him, wishes he was there, thinks she should have gone with him, imagines what it was like for him, thinks she understands him, pretends they kissed, remembers the things he told her, wonders where he's gone, hears his voice and imagines he's there, dreams of him in bed with her, pretends they kissed some more, wishes he hadn't left her, places him in the marriage bed, and much more... (this is all in the books, coming from Sansa) Other men: Meryn (beats her) - later, she remembers what Sandor said Joffrey (torments her) - later, she remembers what Sandor said Slynt (remembers what he did) - later, she remembers what Sandor said (hears his voice) Kingsguard (beats her) - later, she notes that Sandor never beat her; later, she remembers what Sandor said Rapists (attack her) - later, she remembers Sandor rescued her (repeatedly) Ilyn (after Cersei scares her about rape) - she wishes Sandor was there to protect her instead (Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.) Tyrion (orders her to strip, gropes her breast) - she refuses to kneel for his cloak, but she puts on Sandor's cloak herself, and keeps it, and thinks of it often; when she is forced to kiss him, she thinks of Sandor instead; later, she remembers what Sandor said (hears his voice), then dreams of Sandor in the marriage bed with her instead Marillion (gropes her breast, too) - she imagines Sandor is there to rescue her instead (once again, hears his voice) Littlefinger (forces kisses, also touches her breast, and tells her older men make the best husbands) - later, she pretends to kiss Sandor instead, and she places Sandor in the marriage bed because of how he'd kissed her instead Loras (forgets her) - the rose leads to the beast, she remembers Sandor was the champion at her father's tourney instead; when she fantasizes about a kiss, she thinks Loras never kissed her, but Sandor did, so she gives Sandor the kiss instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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