Will Sansa’s Unkiss amount to nothing more than the active over imagination of a young girl concerning the guy that protected her?

[zandru]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Stockholm syndrome is another word for trauma-bonding, with stockholm only used in hostage taking situations. And it's the fashion word for plenty of POV characters,

Hey, thanks for this discussion! I'm among the several folks who are not at all up on terminology and forms of mental trauma, and appreciate being enlightened.

13 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Sandor is Sansa's go-to guy to think of for comfort when other men are bad to her.

Indeed, and thanks for that detailed list! It's too bad Sansa never had a kind word for Sandor when he was actually around. "You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone", indeed. Comparing "Clash of Kings" (Sansa v Sandor) with "Storm of Swords" (Arya v Sandor), Arya comes to think of the man as "Sandor" on their last few days together, humanizing him at last, then even defending and binding up his wounds (although he becomes "the Hound" when he shifts into action in the sword fight). Sansa seems to near-always refer to him as "the Hound" or "Sandor Clegane", never achieving the level of familiarity/intimacy that her younger sister did with their "relationship." It's interesting.

A BRIEF NOTE: My apologies for staying up too late and posting somewhat stupid(er) non sequiter replies. Will try to avoid these in the future.

[Le Cygne]

I think he keeps Sansa referring to Sandor as the Hound because he is her Beast.

Sansa and the Hound

Beauty and the Beast

I always thought one day she'd call him My Hound. There's a line in Cocteau, near the end, where she calls him My Beast.

Little bird (he loves her song) is his pet name for her. The Hound (he is her Beast) is her pet name for him. (the meaning evolves as the story evolves)

(I put a bunch more stuff here, I love Beauty and the Beast...)

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, zandru said:

forms of mental trauma

Well, neither trauma-bonding nor Stockholm is a mental trauma. It's an emotional bond formed out of survival strategy, and has nothing to do with mentally coping/denying abuse. And in fact, when there is a hostage situation, negotiators actually try to promote this type of trauma-bond to be made, because it does increase the survival rate for the hostages and the hostage takers. The trauma-bond does not only affect the victim, but the captor too. If the hostage taker is capable of feeling empathy (empathy hormone receptors work a+), they too will feel as strongly about the victim. And even if the captor cannot feel empathy or only a low level it, they will still want to keep the victim alive, because the behavior will gratify them in other ways. Stockholm is a win-win for a situation like that.

Trauma-bonding is an issue in an abusive relationship, not because it's a mental issue, but because that's a prolonged situation over years, and the bond becomes so strong and intense that even after the victim flees or separates from the abuser, the need for the hormonal bond will rear up and compell them to return to a life ruining of threatening situation. But there's nothing mentally wrong with empathizing or bonding with people. The bonding hormone, the empathy hormone causes the same feelings that people have when they take MDMA or XTC. But instead of a pill, the abuser causes for a natural hormonal fix. A trauma-bond is basically a hormonal addiction, not a mental trauma. The cure: long term separation (cold turkey) and replacing it with other social bonds or activities that also give a "happy buzz".

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

as the Hound himself later admits to Arya when he says unprompted that he meant to rape Sansa, that he should have "taken her" and "fucked her bloody" that night--even if she lies to herself in waking life about how beautiful and romantic it was, much like Sansa lies to herself about all manner of unpleasant truths.

No.  You forget that he was slowly and painfully dying of sepsis and preceding those statements he just flat out asked Arya to kill him.  Give him the gift of mercy like they did for the wounded archer.  She doesn't move.

Quote

As still as stone she stood. "I . . . I was only . . ."
"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . ."

So then he tries to make her mad by bringing up Mycah.  Then she realizes he's crying.  The next thing he confesses is his personal failures toward her:  standing there in his white cloak, taking the song that should have been given freely.  If he's such an unrepentant rapist, why does he feel so much guilt?  This is half-confessional and half-goading Arya to finish him.  And this is all prompted after hearing from Gregor's men that Tyrion married Sansa, he proceeds to get very drunk in a highly volatile situation.  He clearly believes he left her to a worse fate due to Tyrion's reputation for raping his wife.  Why does the rapist care so much if his victim is raped by someone else?  If he doesn't care about her consent, why didn't he just force her to leave with him?  He could have.  He's stronger.  In fact, if his intent was to rape her, he doesn't in reality do anything sexual.  No groping, no tearing her clothes, no just kissing her.  There's nothing stopping him.  Why the fuck is he just demanding a literal song?  BTW even Jaime says rape is not something the Hound would do when he hears reports of the the Saltpans.  Joffrey, Tyrion, Pycelle, Littlefinger have all groped her.  Even her "hero" Ser Dontos tries to plant sloppy kisses on her.  Nothing stopped them from doing so.  I'm not arguing the moment wasn't frightening and his behavior was way out of line, but he is demanding the literal song because it's one personal thing he can have from her that does not do permanent damage.   

So Arya still doesn't move even after all that forcing him to just beg to kill him.  The subtext of that is yes he wanted not just her physically but he wanted her heart too.  He knows he royally fucked up the Blackwater by his behavior.  No one is harder on Sandor than Sandor.  It's why he was blacked out drunk and captured so easily by the BwB.  He was suicidally depressed and just didn't care anymore if someone in the warzone came along and killed him.  

And as sweet said, Arya is the sister that is the way better judge of character.  She had multiple opportunities to kill him and each one she refrained.  She intuitively senses that his bark is worse than his bite.  He may say awful things, but his actions don't support that he actually believes the things he says.  As it turns out he doesn't even want gold in exchange for Arya.  He wants to be in Robb's army, perhaps even a lordship.  Why does he want to be in Robb's army except with the idea in mind that they will march on KL?  Why does he want the lordship when he never even wanted knighthood?  Hmmm... raise his social station, fight for her brother with the possibility of heading back to KL.  To rescue her?  To get a second chance where he screwed up the first time?  It's the one possibility that gets him out of his depressed funk.  That doesn't seem consistent with a rapist going through all this trouble. 

And just because someone goes through a frightening experience, does not automatically mean they are traumatized.  Even before the first unkiss memory, she recalls the events of the Blackwater accurately and and with a critical eye for why it happened.  Not excusing, she just understands what the underlying issue was.  If she were traumatized, we should already see the signs of repressing it as this is over one month later.  She can recall everything in factual detail and has no anxiety whatsoever when she is reliving that moment in her mind.  That's not consistent with a typical PTSD response.  

Quote

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

And she keeps the cloak.  People who have PTSD symptoms actively avoid associations with the traumatic event.  This is all pre-false memory so it can't be argued she was repressing anything.  She just recounted everything accurately.  

The idea that this was all about trauma and repression does not neatly satisfy every instance of her recollection.  It doesn't fit all the facts.  That assertion demands we completely ignore all of George's symbolic wife-stealing concept he heavily associated the scene with.  That's not something Sansa would be aware of.  If George wanted us to read it entirely as straightforward trauma, he should have not make it so heavily symbolic.  He had alternatives.  He could have written it not with a dagger, but say his hands around her neck.  He could have written him literally doing something sexual to her.  He would have written Sansa to be showing signs of PTSD right off the bat.  Disassociation with all things related to the Hound, even on a subconscious level.  Anxiety when reliving the event in her head.  She would have automatic physical symptoms of being traumatized that would not be under her conscious control.  If the trauma is buried somewhere in her subconscious, it should be showing itself spontaneously when triggered by an association.  Her reaction to the old crippled dog in at the Fingers should be a triggering event.  That's immediately following her supposed "nightmare" of the Hound.  

This doesn't make sense that George could be so thorough in describing Broken Men when it's the subject of the effects of men's trauma, but he would be so wildly unrealistic with the symptoms of Sansa's "trauma."  He lived through the Vietnam War as a conscientious objector.  Clearly describing men's trauma accurately was important to him.  As sweet demonstrated, the Stockholm syndrome trauma-bonding doesn't apply in Sansa's case.  If she's such a victim of a terrible trauma and her mind is trying to cope, there doesn't seem to be much compassion for a deeply traumatized 12 year old.  If so it's the only coping mechanism available to her.  She's still a prisoner with no support system who is continuously abused verbally, physically, and sexually.  It does smack of victim blaming this frustration that she is somehow not strong enough to face reality when she can do nothing to change her situation at this time.  This is really more about what people think Sansa ought to do and ought to feel.  That it speaks to a doom and gloom future of her aligning with Littlefinger in his values.  

Since I don't believe that the unkiss is really about trauma, I think it speaks to her being more mentally strong than she even gives herself credit for.  In her internal monolgue, she has more Stark identity thoughts than I think her other siblings have.  She knows who she really is on the inside even if she can't show it.  No one has broken her even after all she's been through.   

 

             

[Newstar]

41 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This is half-confessional and half-goading Arya to finish him.  

So what? Sandor's not lying about any of it. He did kill Mycah. He did stand there and let the KG beat Sansa. He did force Sansa to sing for him. If he then in his very next breath after a series of confessions we know to be true confessions admits that he meant to rape Sansa that night, there's no reason to disbelieve him. Sansa knows that Sandor meant to rape her that night as well, which is why she blends her near-miss rape on her wedding night with Sandor in the dream.

There's really no way around this for SanSan fans: there's no ambiguity, no wiggle room, no space for denial. Sandor meant to rape Sansa that night. He admits as much, and Sansa intuits as much, which explains the ASOS dream and which also explains why she's so determined to focus on the memory of a kiss which never happened. Better that than admit to herself that someone she came to view as a protector and someone she believed would never hurt her violently attacked her with rape in mind.

 

Quote

This doesn't make sense that George could be so thorough in describing Broken Men when it's the subject of the effects of men's trauma, but he would be so wildly unrealistic with the symptoms of Sansa's "trauma."

It's not unrealistic. It's completely consistent with how GRRM has written Sansa's character, as someone who has a loose relationship with the facts when they don't suit her and who keeps making the same mistake of repressing unpleasant realities in favour of fantasies over and over again. The Hound is the most important instance of this, since she has constructed a fantasy which is so detailed that she has conjured up fake memories of sensations, a trick she's never managed with all her previous delusions.

Sansa at this point in her character development, if she truly is developing as a character and learning from her mistakes, after what happened with Joffrey, with Cersei, with the Tyrells, and with Dontos, should not be this blind. She should be sitting down with herself, reflecting on how letting herself succumb to comforting delusions has gotten her into all kinds of trouble, and resolving to be honest with herself and the past, no matter how unpleasant it may feel. Of course, Sansa seems to be going in the opposite direction, lying to herself and dreaming up a romantic Hound fantasy that's more detailed than any of her other delusions. Not a good sign. If she hasn't learned by now, will she ever learn?

 

Quote

It does smack of victim blaming this frustration that she is somehow not strong enough to face reality when she can do nothing to change her situation at this time.  

Sansa keeps making the same mistakes. We're four books in, and despite Sansa's supposed character growth she's still spinning fantasies in the same way that got her into so much trouble in AGOT in the first place. She has swapped out Joffrey (the loving prince attacked by Mycah) and Cersei (the gracious, kindhearted, trustworthy queen) for Littlefinger (her father figure who only has her best interests at heart) and the Hound (her romantic protector who kissed her and would never hurt her). Different characters, similar lies.

 

Quote

Since I don't believe that the unkiss is really about trauma, I think it speaks to her being more mentally strong than she even gives herself credit for.

There's no "mental strength" in lying to oneself because the truth is too harsh. That shows weakness, not strength. Tyrion in AGOT admired Jon's willingness to face a hard truth. Why? Because there's nothing admirable about self-delusion. Sansa's going to have to learn that the hard way, if indeed she ever learns it at all. She seems rather too susceptible to Littlefinger's little lessons about the value of lying these days.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

And she wanted to pet him! "He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog who tries to bite any hand that tries to pet him"! And then she runs off digging his ferocity

Exactly.  She likes some of his ferocity, she just wants the volume to go from a 10 down to a 4 and directed act people who actually deserve it.  She even imagines the Hound laughing when she tells Meryn Trant he's no true knight (that's the biggest insult in her mind).  Like it's their private joke.  That's the point, focusing his ferocity appropriately.  She's willing to give in this dynamic, but she wants him to learn how to people properly also.  Ask for things the right way at the right time.  She said she was willing to sing a song for him "gladly."  Her objection at the Blackwater was singing at an inappropriate time (the battle going on), not that she never wanted to sing for him ever.  That's literal song btw, which was what he was asking for.  He already knew she didn't understand the metaphor.  

Quote

"You promised me a song, little bird. Have you forgotten?"
She didn't know what he meant. She couldn't sing for him now, here, with the sky aswirl with fire and men dying in their hundreds and their thousands. "I can't," she said. "Let me go, you're scaring me."
"Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me."

He clearly doesn't see how irrational his request is in that moment.  He accuses Sansa of cowardice, but he's the one falling apart at that moment.  There's also a key difference here with other scary events.  Sansa feels she can voice that he scares her sometimes and makes the demand that he let her go.  She can tell him he's awful to his face.  She doesn't do that with Joffrey or Littlefinger.  She doesn't even feel safe enough to voice resistance with those two meaning she finds them way more dangerous.  The hyper-vigilance to avoid saying anything that would set off an abuser isn't there with Sandor.  The song she sings and the fact that it is successful in snapping him out of it shows her intuition regarding him is actually really spot on.  She doesn't have to make it a conscious decision.  So if somewhere within her she chose the appropriate song, she's got a better handle on him than he does on her.  This tactic would never work on anyone else who is actively trying to make her suffer.  It's directly reaching out to his better nature, so she does believe he is capable of being better than he claims.    

[Prof. Cecily]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Stockholm syndrome

Spoiler

 

is another word for trauma-bonding, with stockholm only used in hostage taking situations. And it's the fashion word for plenty of POV characters, often in totally wrongly applied situations. Trauma-bonding is the term used within an abusive relationship (family, guardians and partners).

While stockholm is a famous term (and horribly misunderstood), as a phenomenon it rarely happens. Trauma-bonding is an extremely intense hormonal bond formed in a relationship where the abuser switches between violence (putting the victim in physical danger, or threaten to harm or kill them) and rewarding. It gives the victim the illusion that they are responsible on how they are treated by the abuser, and that if they please the abuser and be good, they lower the risk of harm or death. This however occurs on a subconscioius level. The victim will experience it as the abuser needing them and becomes extremely empathic towards the abuser (subconscious it's how people aim to predict the mood the abuser is in). Such a bond is stronger even than a healthy love bond. As a result, the victim cannot bear the idea of separation, and if they are separated from the abuser they will attempt to return to them. 

Most hostage or captor-prisoner relationships lack such a dynamic, and therefore no stockholm ensues. The only situation that Sansa was in for us to begin to consider the term Stockholm was when she was a hostage at the Red Keep and abused by Joffrey. However, he only abuses (never rewards) and that for events that are completely outside her power and control. And even when she attempts to placate him he does not reward her. Hence, she never feels that she can't do without Joffrey once the abuse starts, and has no stockholm. Not even the attempts to placate Joffrey can be called evidence fo Stockholm, because she doesn't do this to make him love her, nor out of misguided empathy with him, let alone for him.

While Littlefinger is definitely grooming her, he has never been violent towards her that she knows of. She does not display placating behavior towards him to prevent violence from him. She does not even empathize with him. And if somebody were to take her away from him, she won't be overcome with the strong compulsion to return to him. So, neither stockholm,nor trauma-bond is in evidence.

There is only one situation and one POV who qualifies for Stockholm, and that is Theon and only in relation to Ramsay.

This is pure speculation that is not even actually backed up by text. After he saved her from a mob, and she dreams of it, he is not present in the dream and she's looking for Dontos (the foolish, fat, drunk). She also knew that the Hound's protection of her against Joffrey was limited and had little to do with brute strength, but depends entirely on political power. Her disillusion with knights is not that they fail to protect her, but that they are actively complicits in abusing her.

 

 

2 hours ago, zandru said:

Hey, thanks for this discussion! I'm among the several folks who are not at all up on terminology and forms of mental trauma, and appreciate being enlightened.

I'll second the motion. @sweetsunray you've shown just how GRRM takes the B&B meme and stands it on its head.

3 hours ago, Newstar said:

...GRRM has made a big deal out of Sansa lying to herself about pretty much everything she doesn't like until forced to do so otherwise. She does it with Joffrey (Mycah attacked Joffrey, her prince loves her). She does it with Littlefinger ("Littlefinger" is only a mask gentle, funny "Petyr" has to wear). And she's doing it with the Hound (the Hound is a protector who would never hurt her who kissed her at Blackwater). In none of these instances is it a good or positive thing. In fact, Sansa's continued failure through AFFC to stop lying to herself does not bode well for her future. 

And, as yet, you say nothing of the Alayne chapter of TWOW.

[Springwatch]

32 minutes ago, Newstar said:

So what? Sandor's not lying about any of it. He did kill Mycah. He did stand there and let the KG beat Sansa. He did force Sansa to sing for him. If he then in his very next breath after a series of confessions we know to be true confessions admits that he meant to rape Sansa that night, there's no reason to disbelieve him. Sansa knows that Sandor meant to rape her that night as well, which is why she blends her near-miss rape on her wedding night with Sandor in the dream.

Thing is, the confession is not uniform:

Quote

"And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

See, the first bit in blue is embarrassingly unmacho; he is blabbing out his shame - all this is true. The bit in orange is the opposite: it's insanely macho, ultra-violent, and never happened. You get to decide where the middle bit fits.

32 minutes ago, Newstar said:

There's really no way around this for SanSan fans: there's no ambiguity, no wiggle room, no space for denial. Sandor meant to rape Sansa that night. He admits as much, and Sansa intuits as much, which explains the ASOS dream and which also explains why she's so determined to focus on the memory of a kiss which never happened. Better that than admit to herself that someone she came to view as a protector and someone she believed would never hurt her violently attacked her with rape in mind.

There's always wiggle room. Think about Sandor. He's spent his entire life making himself a monster that all men should fear. Today he publicly turned craven and fled the battlefield. Because he's spent many hours fighting in a hell of fire, the one thing that absolutely terrifies him.  So he comes back, exhausted and broken, and drinks and drinks until he throws up and passes out. Then Sansa arrives. Honestly, I don't think Sandor was even capable of rape at this stage. I don't think he had a coherent thought in his head. Most likely rape was one of those random things, and that came out as 'give me a song'. But don't forget what he actually did - which was to wait for Sansa to literally sing an actual song. Actions count louder than words.

Still a bad guy, I'm not excusing him everything.

[Le Cygne]

He wanted an actual song that night. He said so very clearly, he asked for Florian and Jonquil. And he came to her in an answer to her prayer, she prayed to the Mother to save him, he came to her from a ship called Prayer, and she sang a song about saving him. For his part, he said he wanted to keep her safe, too.

Very beautiful sentiments at the heart of this, there's love beneath all of this, emerging from it all. It's a love story.

[Le Cygne]

There's a really pretty line in the new Beauty and the Beast, that fittingly, says "look at me" just as is so often repeated in the Sansa and the Hound story:

For in that solemn silence is heard in the whisper of every sleeping thing: Look, look at me, come wake me up, for still here I'll be.

That for me is the basis of this story, as all stories like this. They are awakening each other. Sansa says she understands Sandor, that's what they do, they understand each other.

They see each other for who they truly are, and they don't turn away from what they see. Neither one of them is doing this while they are apart, they keep thinking of each other.

They remember how they look and sound and feel, for Sansa it's like he's almost there, she hears his voice, she "remembers" what it feels like to have his lips pressed on hers.

All the desire in the story, that's how they express these things. It's a love story.

[Darkstream]

3 hours ago, Newstar said:

So what? Sandor's not lying about any of it. He did kill Mycah. He did stand there and let the KG beat Sansa. He did force Sansa to sing for him.

...And he didn't rape her, as you blindly claim he meant to. Why didn't he, if those were his intentions? He had all the opportunity in the world, yet he didn't.

Quote

 

If he then in his very next breath after a series of confessions we know to be true confessions admits that he meant to rape Sansa that night, there's no reason to disbelieve him. 

There is, and it's been reiterated many times, you just choose to ignore and deny the reasons.

Quote

Sansa at this point in her character development, if she truly is developing as a character and learning from her mistakes, after what happened with Joffrey, with Cersei, with the Tyrells, and with Dontos, should not be this blind. She should be sitting down with herself, reflecting on how letting herself succumb to comforting delusions has gotten her into all kinds of trouble, and resolving to be honest with herself and the past, no matter how unpleasant it may feel. Of course, Sansa seems to be going in the opposite direction, lying to herself and dreaming up a romantic Hound fantasy that's more detailed than any of her other delusions. Not a good sign. If she hasn't learned by now, will she ever learn?

Only your bias, and disregard for the text has blinded you to the fact that she has, or is learning. She has learned that her childish fantasies of a "true gallant Knight" is just that, a fantasy. She has come to learn that what she truly desires, and what is best for her is not this fairy tale image of a handsome Knight in shining armor, full of false courtesies and feigned oaths; But that of the ugly and scarred, brutal and rough Hound, who has shown her more real courtesy and gallantry than any of the phony characters you've mentioned.

[zandru]

5 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

a doom and gloom future of her aligning with Littlefinger in his values.  

That is, assuming Sansa spends much more time with Littlefinger.  

Spoiler

However, in the "Alayne" chapter, we find that the great manipulator, the behind the scenes god of the throne game, the dude who knows it all and controls it all, has just hired Ser Shadrich The Mad Mouse, along with a few other sellswords. And we know from the Ser Shadrich's meeting with Brienne that he's on a quest to find Sansa Stark, and knows a lot more about Sansa Stark than Brienne does. So it probably won't be long before Sansa is again "rescued". Then we will see how much of a "playah" v "pawn" her character has developed to.

 

[ravenous reader]

6 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I think he keeps Sansa referring to Sandor as the Hound because he is her Beast.

Sansa and the Hound

Beauty and the Beast

I always thought one day she'd call him My Hound. There's a line in Cocteau, near the end, where she calls him My Beast.

Little bird (he loves her song) is his pet name for her. The Hound (he is her Beast) is her pet name for him. (the meaning evolves as the story evolves)

(I put a bunch more stuff here, I love Beauty and the Beast...)

Thanks for that; I enjoyed reading your lovingly-worked Beauty and the Beast comparison!  Very convincing (and moving).  When all's said and done, GRRM is such a romantic... 

P.S.  Do you think he might additionally be referencing Disney's 'Lady and the Tramp'?

[Le Cygne]

Thanks! He really is!   Lady and the Tramp sounds right to me!

Darkstream, amen to all of that! It helps to read the story.

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Thanks! He really is!   Lady and the Tramp sounds right to me!

Ha ha -- I've just realized 'Lady' is a cocker spaniel -- that means she has red hair!

[The Ned's Little Girl]

8 hours ago, Newstar said:

Some part of her knows very well the Hound assaulted her at Blackwater with rape on his mind, even if he thought better of it--as the Hound himself later admits to Arya when he says unprompted that he meant to rape Sansa, that he should have "taken her" and "fucked her bloody" that night--even if she lies to herself in waking life about how beautiful and romantic it was, much like Sansa lies to herself about all manner of unpleasant truths.

And once again, you take this infamous quote and leave out half of it. He should have fucked her bloody "before leaving her for the dwarf". That last bit is pretty darn important and significantly changes the meaning of what went before. It's almost grimly amusing how often people quote only the first half of that line but leave out the second half.... almost.

[zandru]

1 minute ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

That last bit is pretty darn important and significantly changes the meaning of what went before

Thanks for adding this! There's always been some real enmity between Tyrion Lannister and Sandor Clegane. Tyrion is pretty light hearted about it (after all, he's a Lannister and by definition holds the Hound's leash), and thinks nothing of dissing Sandor as a "cur" and "dog", even worse than Joffrey (because Tyrion's smarter and more articulate). But Sandor has had little affection for the Imp in the past, and after being shamed by Tyrion at the battle on the Blackwater, now has developed a hatred for the little guy.

Arya doesn't know this, as she never hung around Joffrey or the court at King's Landing, so she's apalled when (her) Sandor speaks of tickling (aka "torturing") Tyrion and burning him in wildfire - she then decides he's just like Polliver and the Tickler, and starts thinking of him as the Hound again. If not for this, it's possible she might not have decided to first kill him in his sleep, then ended up abandoning him.

[LongRider]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 7:41 AM, ravenous reader said:

  Although I can't find the link right now (it's somewhere on that same Riverlands thread), I also like those imaginary dialogues on the Quiet Isle between lovelorn Sandor and Stranger the reluctant therapist who's sick and tired of hearing about Sansa!  Do you recall who wrote those (it's a whole series)?!

Ahh, the Riverlands Web brainchild of Booknerd2.  Best threads in all of Westeros.org as far I'm concerned.  Seek Google, and you will find!

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:12 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't know, but the Riverlands Web thread had good essays on Stranger, they were super funny

Our dear Booknerd2 aka 'Bookie' wrote most of the those, and here is one I found.  

Quote

 

Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) · Report post

 

Oh, I think some QI ones would be awesome too. I have to work on it. But I do have this that I've been holding. 

 

Sandor and Stranger argue over Sansa and t-shirts

 

 

Sandor: Stranger...

 

Stranger: What now? (rolls eyes in exasperation)

 

Sandor: Are you busy?

 

Stranger: If it is about her again then yes, I am.

 

Sandor: Do you think that she…

 

Stranger: I don't care. How can I make that any clearer for the thousandth time?

 

Sandor: Stranger, come on…

 

Stranger: No, you come on, and what about a shirt with my face on it instead of dogs, huh? Really makes me feel special there. Nice touch. Very considerate, of me. My own sidekick and now you are wearing other animals faces on your shirt. What next? Just great. And if you start wearing a shirt with the readhead on it, not surprising... Just try me.

 

Sandor: Stranger, enough.

 

Stranger: Sandor, do I need to put you in time out again?

 

Sandor: Stranger...

 

Stranger: Oh, my….my…all of a sudden….my one hoof hurts….I have to rest, Take me back to the stable. You might want to go back to your rooms.

 

Sandor: You are bloody faking it. 

 

Stranger: No, I'm not. Really, it came over me….all of a sudden….just now….so odd…..out of nowhere…I really need those damn earplugs.

 

Link to above dialogue.   

 

There are more Stranger and Sandor in V.7 I think.

 

The Riverlands Web V.1: http://asoiaf.wester...riverlands-web/

The Riverlands Web V.2: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v2/

The Riverlands Web V.3: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v3/

The Riverlands Web V.4: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v4/

The Riverlands Web V.5: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v5/

The Riverlands Web V.6: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v6/ 

The Riverlands Web V.7: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/134982-the-riverlands-web-v7/

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Ahh, the Riverlands Web brainchild of Booknerd2.  Best threads in all of Westeros.org as far I'm concerned.  Seek Google, and you will find!

Our dear Booknerd2 aka 'Bookie' wrote most of the those, and here is one I found.  

Link to above dialogue.   

 

There are more Stranger and Sandor in V.7 I think.

 

The Riverlands Web V.1: http://asoiaf.wester...riverlands-web/

The Riverlands Web V.2: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v2/

The Riverlands Web V.3: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v3/

The Riverlands Web V.4: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v4/

The Riverlands Web V.5: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v5/

The Riverlands Web V.6: http://asoiaf.wester...erlands-web-v6/ 

The Riverlands Web V.7: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/134982-the-riverlands-web-v7/

 

This is awesome. Brings a tear to my eye to see fans having fun 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

14 hours ago, Newstar said:

Except Sansa associates "the marriage bed" with one thing and one thing only in that dream: the threat of rape. If Sandor is there, it's because her subconscious links him with her terror of being raped, just as her subconscious links Joffrey and Robb's bloody, violent deaths. Some part of her knows very well the Hound assaulted her at Blackwater with rape on his mind, even if he thought better of it--as the Hound himself later admits to Arya when he says unprompted that he meant to rape Sansa, that he should have "taken her" and "fucked her bloody" that night--even if she lies to herself in waking life about how beautiful and romantic it was, much like Sansa lies to herself about all manner of unpleasant truths.

Remember what the Hound told her in ACOK? "But one day I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no." That's a promise isn't it? Sansa's subsconscious sure thinks so, because when she dreams of Tyrion (potential rapist) turning into the Hound (potential rapist) into her bed, those are the words she puts into Dream Hound's mouth: "I'll have a song from you." Meaning "I'm going to rape you now, and there's nothing you can do about it." The Hound also links taking the song from Sansa with rape: "I took the song, she never gave it. I meant to take her, too. I should have."

Moreover, the fear of the Hound raping her is so great in the dream that it prompts Sansa to wake. Apparently, reliving Joffrey's death, seeing Robb bleed out, and remembering her horrifying wedding night weren't enough to prompt her to wake from her nightmare, but her fear of being raped by the Hound? Yup, that'll do it right quick. There also seems to be an escalation in horror over the course of the dream: seeing Joffrey die --> seeing Robb die --> preparing to be raped by Tyrion --> imminently about to be raped by the Hound --> waking up. Sansa subconsciously ranks her terror of the Hound raping her as more traumatizing than imagining Robb die, which gives the reader some idea as to how much the prospect terrifies her and how traumatized she was at Blackwater.

GRRM has made a big deal out of Sansa lying to herself about pretty much everything she doesn't like until forced to do so otherwise. She does it with Joffrey (Mycah attacked Joffrey, her prince loves her). She does it with Littlefinger ("Littlefinger" is only a mask gentle, funny "Petyr" has to wear). And she's doing it with the Hound (the Hound is a protector who would never hurt her who kissed her at Blackwater). In none of these instances is it a good or positive thing. In fact, Sansa's continued failure through AFFC to stop lying to herself does not bode well for her future. 

THANK YOU. FINALLY SOMEBODY SANE. An effing erotic dream when she was nearly raped? This is why I'm not taking their arguments seriously. Trying to pass a nightmare triggered by trauma as an erotic dream, facepalm.