Will Sansa’s Unkiss amount to nothing more than the active over imagination of a young girl concerning the guy that protected her?

[Houseofthedirewolves]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

She acts indifferent to him. But he means something - someone who wants something of her that she's not willing to give him.

 

Actually who was responsible is important. If Sansa ends up convincing herself that Joffrey is innocent of something he is in fact innocent, then that can hardly be used as evidence of her being dillusional. Now she is dillusional in aGoT of a great many things, including stuff about Joffrey, but him being responsible for Lady's death isn't one of those things.

Is it? You can hate someone for being involved in events that preceded to THEY (Cersei, Robert and Ned) killing Lady.

"If Sansa ends up convincing herself that Joffrey is innocent of something he is in fact innocent, then that can hardly be used as evidence of her being dillusional."

1) He is not innocent because he lied about why the wolf attacked him. If he hadn't lied, things wouldn't have escalated.

2) He provoked the entire situation. Something that Sansa was present for. So now two action of his influenced her wolf's death.

3) By your argument, Ned is the only person responsible since he actually killed the wolf seeing you want to be so technical. 

 

 

 

"Now she is dillusional in aGoT of a great many things, including stuff about Joffrey, but him being responsible for Lady's death isn't one of those things."

4) Nope. Sansa blaming Arya is still evidence of her delusion. Arya didn't kill the wolf so she's innocent. According to you, after all.

• But by the evidence readers were given some of us can deduct that Joffrey's (provocation and lying), Arya (attacking the prince), and Cersei's (order for the wolf to be killed) all also influenced the death of lady and doomed her before Ned even swung the sword. So Sansa was right to blame all three of them. 

 

 

 

 

"Is it? You can hate someone for being involved in events that preceded to THEY"

•It's time for you to learn cause and effect because your attempt at nitpicking is making me laugh now. There has to be a logic to it and you're lacking it.

What happened at the trident CAUSED the events that led to Lady's death. It influenced Lady's death. Joffrey bullying and attacking the Butcher's boy CAUSED Arya to attack him. Which CAUSED Joffrey to start hacking the sword in her direction. Which CAUSED Nymeria to attack. Which CAUSED Arya to send Nymeria away. Neither of them are innocent at this point. But Joffrey kicked off the events. Sansa knows this because she's there. WITHOUT this part, NONE OF THE OTHER PART WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. So you cannot just conveniently say this part doesn't matter because this INFLUENCED EVERYTHING. 

What happens next that further dooms Lady? Oh Yeah. Joffrey lied. He painted Nymeria as a vicious beast that attacked him after Arya and the Butcher's boy beat him with clubs. Sansa was in the room when he retold his lie after Arya finished recounting what happened.

 Joffrey's lie left King Robert in doubt about the truth.

"What in all the seven hells am I to make of this? He says one thing, she says another." 

Confusion directly caused by Joffrey's lie. Do you see how his lie is manipulating things. He is not innocent in anyway. 

Sansa contributes her role in Lady's death when she lies rather than telling the truth causing Arya to attack her. Again further blame for Arya.

Arya's attack gives Cersei the leverage that she needs to make Joffrey's lie more credible. 

All of their actions contributed to Lady's death. You wanting to get technical and using technicality as proof of Joffrey's innocence, which you use to conclude that Sansa cannot be repressing, just makes your argument laughable. 

 

Sansa hated Joffrey because he had a BIG part in everything. He cut the butcher's boy, he lied to the King and Queen. The King was unable to take proper action based on Joffrey's lie. Cersei told the King to kill the wolf based on Joffreys lie. See how Joffrey ties back into everything? His hands aren't clean. He's actions and his lies doomed Lady just as much as Sansa's lie, Arya's temper, Cersei's need for revenge, King Robert's command and Ned swinging the sword.

[Meera of Tarth]

57 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"if she is just in love with him (what the story blatantly suggests)"

•The story has never suggested that. You cannot conclude love based on a false memory. 

•The story has shown us that she views him as a protector. When she compares other men to him based on their strength, or sees people practicing with swords and thinks of him, or feels scared and thinks of him, it all relates to her viewing him as a protector.

•The story has shown us that she romanticized a traumatic incident. The story has also shown us that she did this before and it didn't end well. 

So most likely Sansa's altering of her memory will result in another rude awakening.

It's more normal to view their relationship as a love story than a protector-trauma-infatuation story. I am not concluding love based on a false memory, but on the whole dynamics and previous story, apart from the unkiss.

 

Quote

"You say.... that the night event traumatised her so much that she has created a mechanism to cope with this, up to be point to virtually believe that she has fallen in love with someone who, not  only she is not really in love with"

•I have never claimed she was in love with anyone... Nor is her altered memory a coping mechanism that she created after Blackwater, it's a mechanism that has been present from her earlier chapters. She used it with Joffrey after Lady was killed. She repressed her memory of his involvement in Lady's death so that she could maintain her pretty dream that involved him.

It would be different with Joffrey, because she already had a crush on him. You deny the fact that she has a crush or something towards Sandor except for "a protector" bond, which is very different. Her unkiss memories show us she likes it. How can she like a memory of a Kiss from a man that only protects her and to who she is not attarcted to previously at any way?

Your example with Joffrey doesn't prove that the unkiss mechanism has happened before bc it Works different tan the unkiss mechanism you describe.

Quote

•It is an established mechanism that she falls back on. One that she is still using with Littlefinger. She can't get away from him. She knows he's dangerous but she's powerless. So in her mind she splits him into two people. There's Petyr who is her "friend" and who cares for her and there is "Littlefinger" who only cares for himself. The fact that Sansa has a pattern of altering reality in her mind makes it more dangerous. Because if there's a habit formed, it will be harder to break.

She doesn't pretend she is in love with him like with Sandor according to you, nor she doesn't enjoy his kisses or "daydreams about them". And if she did, which she doesn't, it would be more logical due to what @sweetsunray explained.

 

Quote

 

"even if she had a moment she didn't like with him (and that is debatable, but let's say she didn't like it"

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind.

please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, Please don’t.  She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again

•Whether she likes it or not is not debatable. The text makes her feelings plain. This is obviously a moment with him that she didn't like.

•That's not me making up her trauma, that's the text describing her trauma. Being scared for her life is traumatic believe it or not. Having someone come into her room and hold a knife to her throat is traumatic. We know she's so terrified that her mind goes blank. Blatant trauma.

Let's quote the whole thing.

I'll use colours. Red=positive, romantic

Orange= Sexual

No color: neutral. (Last paragraph.....oh she doesn't look traumatised).

Blue=when she is scared

Bold and BIG= romantic

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don't kill me, she wanted to scream, please don't. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy

<snip>

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering

................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

It's obvious that the incident, as a whole IS NOT  AS TRAUMATIC, right?

 

Quote

"This mechanism is so powerful that she even "feels" happy when she thinks of him"

•Did she hate Joffrey after repressing his role in Lady's death? No she went back to *loving* him.

"Went back", she never loved Sandor before, according to you. Same idea as the first paragraph I quoted.

 

Quote

"Why didn't she have alterations with Joffrey and Cersei after Ned died?" 

•Because her mind tends to alter things when the reality threaten something that she wants. her pretty song and when she still wants tha. 

Her beautiful Joffrey being involved in something as painful as Lady's death. That reality she couldn't bare. It threatened everything. Marrying her beautiful prince, being his queen, having his babies. Reality cannot get in the way of what she wants. She starts repressing Joffrey's role. 

At first she thought she hated him for what they’d done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey’s doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya.

Once she changed her memory of what happened and put all the blame on Cersei and Arya, she was allowed to continue loving her prince. She still could hold on to the dream future that she wanted.

After Ned's death she no longer wanted any future with Joffrey or any of the Lannisters. She didn't have any need to repress or alter her view of them. She hated all of them. Her mind and reality were in unity. The Lannisters were monster.

You have a point in that she might be "not wanting to believe" the reality with Joffrey. But as I said, she had a crush on Joffrey, he reprsented her teenage Princess Dream and she was naive. Now she is more mature, has experienced lots of traumatic things, and she has been developed as a character. It's a different thing. Furthermore, she never altered her behaviour forcing herself to love a man that she had never loved, with Joffrey. And in fact, as you quote, when she discovers the monster that Joffrey is, she learns quickly and hates him, as any normal person would do. This is normal behaviour. Not a particular case of the "unkiss alteration behaviour" (basically, because it doesn't fit the pattern).

And it's not because "her mind tends to alter things when the reality threaten something that she wants".

That's your way of trying to explain your unkiss theory with another axiom, this time "something that she wants". So, we should add that this infatuated person has to threaten something that she wants, in Sandor's case...the idea of protection I guess?

Many of her traumas threaten the reality she wants and she doesn't unkiss them.

Yet, at the same time, you fail to explain how this Works simmilarly with Sandor if she is not already in love with him before the night incident.

You can't say Joffrey is a particular case of your unkiss theory because she is already in love with him  (unless you acknowledge she loves Sandor), because then there is no reason so as not to believe that her other traumas (bigger, btw) can't follow the "unkiss alterations mechanism" if they have some differences, something you deny.

 

Quote

 

"Why didn't she start acting as a happy wife when she married Tyrion? (We could argue that even if Tyrion was not her protector, her mind should make her "believe" she is in love with him as a survival mechanism, and her mind is good in this according to you)"

•Why would her mind make her believe she is in love with a man she doesn't have any bond with? Who doesn't represent anything positive to her that she wants. Joffrey AND the Hound both represented things that she wanted. She wanted to marry a beautiful prince and be his queen and have his babies. This is why her mind alters negative experiences with him. Because she wants what he represents. She sees the Hound as a protector who is as brave and fierce as the knights that she grew up hearing about and she wants that protection. Again, this is why her mind alters negative experiences with him.

Tyrion does not represent anything that she wants. She doesn't want anything that he offers.

That's part of your new axiom of your theory. I won't say anything 'cause I've already made my point.

 

Quote

 

"Why didn't she start thinking she was not a Stark when she knew what had happened in the Red Wedding?"

•Why should she stop thinking she's a Stark? Outwardly she was already rejecting her family to survive. Inwardly she repressed thoughts about them even before the Red Wedding. Thinking about them pained her so she didn't. She didn't speak about them and if others spoke about them she maintained that they were traitors. That's how she coped.

Interesting theory, although not related to your unkiss mechanism theory. I was basically trying to follow your thoughts putting examples of biggest traumas that SHOULD make her develop other mechanisms because as I already explained, the Sandor incident is not AS TRAUMATIC as the OTHERS by far.

So you have failed to respond to me why these other biggest traumas have zero effect on her mind, when a let's call it, "small trauma" (I suppose you you'd call it this way) makes her mind go crazy.

Repeating myself...to sum up:

You can't say Joffrey is a particular case of your unkiss theory because she is already in love with him  (unless you acknowledge she loves Sandor), because then there is no reason so as not to believe that her other traumas (bigger, btw) can't follow the "unkiss alterations mechanism" if they have some differences, something you deny.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

Just a word about the metaphor  dryness of her throat and the dagger = rapey.  For women, even if you are enthusiastically consenting, if you are nervous it can result in dryness. Women typically require more time and preparation to be ready for sex.  The opposite can also be true.  A  raped woman can experience wetness and orgasm purely as a physical response.  Does not indicate she liked it.  By contrast to Jon's dagger that pierced ygritte's skin, Sandor's dagger never did.  So metaphorically Sansa was never penetrated.  Lack of lubrication is not a definitive sign of the partner being unwanted.  All it means is not being ready for sex, which of course she is not.  

[Le Cygne]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps

Great minds think alike, I quoted the same thing. All that tenderness Sansa showed for Sandor. Do you think she can recover?

[Meera of Tarth]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Great minds think alike, I quoted the same thing. All that tenderness Sansa showed for Sandor. Do you think she can recover?

Of course she will  From the moment there are romantic Red lines....red...the color of love and passion!

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's more normal to view their relationship as a love story than a protector-trauma-infatuation story. I am not concluding love based on a false memory, but on the whole dynamics and previous story, apart from the unkiss.

 

It would be different with Joffrey, because she already had a crush on him. You deny the fact that she has a crush or something towards Sandor except for "a protector" bond, which is very different. Her unkiss memories show us she likes it. How can she like a memory of a Kiss from a man that only protects her and to who she is not attarcted to previously at any way?

Your example with Joffrey doesn't prove that the unkiss mechanism has happened before bc it Works different tan the unkiss mechanism you describe.

He doesn't pretend she is in love with him like with Sandor according to you, nor she doesn't enjoy his kisses or "daydreams about them". And if she did, which she doesn't, it would be more logical due to what @sweetsunray explained.

 

Let's quote the whole thing.

I'll use colours. Red=positive, romantic

Orange= Sexual

No color: neutral. (Last paragraph.....oh she doesn't look traumatised).

Blue=when she is scared

Bold and BIG= romantic

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don't kill me, she wanted to scream, please don't. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy

<snip>

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering

................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

It's obvious that the incident, as a whole IS NOT  AS TRAUMATIC, right?

 

"Went back", she never loved Sandor before, according to you. Same idea as the first paragraph I quoted.

 

You have a point in that she might be "not wanting to believe" the reality with Joffrey. But as I said, she had a crush on Joffrey, he reprsented her teenage Princess Dream and she was naive. Now she is more mature, has experienced lots of traumatic things, and she has been developed as a character. It's a different thing. Furthermore, she never altered her behaviour forcing herself to love a man that she had never loved, with Joffrey. And in fact, as you quote, when she discovers the monster that Joffrey is, she learns quickly and hates him, as any normal person would do. This is normal behaviour. Not a particular case of the "unkiss alteration behaviour" (basically, because it doesn't fit the pattern).

And it's not because "her mind tends to alter things when the reality threaten something that she wants".

That's your way of trying to explain your unkiss theory with another axiom, this time "something that she wants". So, we should add that this infatuated person has to threaten something that she wants, in Sandor's case...the protector I guess?

Many of her traumas threaten the reality she wants and she doesn't unkiss them.

Yet, at the same time, you fail to explain how this Works simmilarly with Sandor if she is not already in love with him before the night incident.

You can't say Joffrey is a particular case of your unkiss theory because she is already in love with him  (unless you acknowledge she loves Sandor), because then there is no reason so as not to believe that her other traumas (bigger, btw) can't follow the "unkiss alterations mechanism" if they have some differences, something you deny.

 

That's part of your new axiom of your theory. I won't say anything 'cause I've already made my point.

 

Interesting theory, although not related to your unkiss mechanism theory. I was basically trying to follow your thoughts putting examples of biggest traumas that SHOULD make her develop other mechanisms because as I already explained, the Sandor incident is not AS TRAUMATIC as the OTHERS by far.

So you have failed to respond to me why these other biggest traumas have zero effect on her mind, when a let's call it, "small trauma" (I suppose you you'd call it this way) makes her mind go crazy.

Repeating myself...to sum up:

You can't say Joffrey is a particular case of your unkiss theory because she is already in love with him  (unless you acknowledge she loves Sandor), because then there is no reason so as not to believe that her other traumas (bigger, btw) can't follow the "unkiss alterations mechanism" if they have some differences, something you deny.

"That's part of your new axiom of your theory. I won't say anything 'cause I've already made my point."

•To whom? :/ 

 

 

 

"It's obvious that the incident, as a whole IS NOT  AS TRAUMATIC, right?" 

•The thought of being kissed by the Hound frightened her. She closed her eyes accepting that she wouldn't be able to fight him off and just wanted it over with. This leads to the Hound holding a knife to her throat. So in a way, her mistaken assumption that the Hound was going to kiss her is the 'Unkiss' that actually triggers the altered version of the Unkiss.

 

 He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened.

Notice it is after this moment that the situation turns particularly traumatic for Sansa. After she closes her eyes believing that she is about to be kissed.

“Still can't bear to look, can you?” she heard him say.  He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her down and shoving her down on the bed. “I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your life.”

This mistaken idea of a kiss on Sansa's part escalated the Hound's anger, causing him to grow violent (that's the only way to describe shoving a young girl on a bed and holding a knife to her throat) THIS is the moment Sansa starts fearing for her life.

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind.

please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, Please don’t.  She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again

 

The period between Sansa believing the Hound would kiss her to when she finally ends her song (still fearing that he would kill her) was the peak of her trauma.

 

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking

 

This is why her mind is so wrapped up on a kiss. Because it was the mistaken assumption of a kiss that led to the most traumatic parts of the Blackwater incident.

 

Her mind alters this moment. Instead of a mistaken idea of a kiss resulting in her being thrown on the bed and a knife held to her throat, her mind recalls an actual kiss. A romantic one. One that no longer frightens her.

 

Reality: mistakenly believed she would be kissed and closed her eyes → led to viciously being pulled down, shoved on the bed → knife held to throat → fearing for her life → forced to sing

First Altered memory → actually kissed → forced to sing-> (she still remembers he threatened to kill her)

He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song. (see how her mind starts altering things?)

By the time she's at the Vale, this false memory is the truth. She truly believes that this is what happened. She has even further romanticized it.

She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa.

 

Changing the association of the Hound kissing her from one that resulted in trauma and fear for her life, and turning it into something romantic and pleasant, allows her to erase the trauma. Erase the fear. And maintain a pleasant memory of her protector who she still needs. Crisis averted.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

I agree. And we have Jaime Lannister's word that Sandor was not a raper, although his brother Gregor was. Cersei made a big point of trying to scare Sansa (and succeeded) that evening of how in battle, men get their blood up and immediately turn into savage rapists. Jaime has no doubt fought alongside the Hound (and the Mountain) often enough to know this just isn't something Sandor does.

Somehow, I'm not following this. Both of them hate knights, so Sansa will knight him? I personally think Sansa is as likely to be the "King on the Iron Throne" as she is to become a knight herself. Guess I need "therapy", right?  ;-)

Sansa took a lot of her newfound hatred of knights from Sandor's opinions. When he speaks, she listens and remembers. It's none of it the "empty courtesies" or elaborate machinations that everyone else seems to spout; plus, he's so terrifying to her that she pays attention. But Sansa is also absorbing a lot from Petyr Baelish, mostly his evil "Littlefinger" side (again, fear is a big driver). She has yet to fully integrate the conflicting lessons she's being exposed to.

"Somehow, I'm not following this. Both of them hate knights, so Sansa will knight him?"

The trauma associated with the concept of knighthood will be removed. It's a healing journey that ends with erasing the negativity that their trauma led them to associate with knights (broken dreams, pain, preying on the weak, bitterness.) The Hound as Sansa's personal knight symbolizes a new meaning in association with knights. Rather than a source of bitterness, it becomes a source of pride, hope, trust, and safety.

[Le Cygne]

29 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Of course she will  From the moment there are romantic Red lines....red...the color of love and passion!

The color coding definitely added to it! She might just have to share her tenderness therapy with him, because he has tenderness to recover from, too.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

23 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's more normal to view their relationship as a love story than a protector-trauma-infatuation story. I am not concluding love based on a false memory, but on the whole dynamics and previous story, apart from the unkiss.

 

It would be different with Joffrey, because she already had a crush on him. You deny the fact that she has a crush or something towards Sandor except for "a protector" bond, which is very different. Her unkiss memories show us she likes it. How can she like a memory of a Kiss from a man that only protects her and to who she is not attarcted to previously at any way?

Your example with Joffrey doesn't prove that the unkiss mechanism has happened before bc it Works different tan the unkiss mechanism you describe.

She doesn't pretend she is in love with him like with Sandor according to you, nor she doesn't enjoy his kisses or "daydreams about them". And if she did, which she doesn't, it would be more logical due to what @sweetsunray explained.

 

Let's quote the whole thing.

I'll use colours. Red=positive, romantic

Orange= Sexual

No color: neutral. (Last paragraph.....oh she doesn't look traumatised).

Blue=when she is scared

Bold and BIG= romantic

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don't kill me, she wanted to scream, please don't. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy

<snip>

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering

................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

It's obvious that the incident, as a whole IS NOT  AS TRAUMATIC, right?

 

"Went back", she never loved Sandor before, according to you. Same idea as the first paragraph I quoted.

 

You have a point in that she might be "not wanting to believe" the reality with Joffrey. But as I said, she had a crush on Joffrey, he reprsented her teenage Princess Dream and she was naive. Now she is more mature, has experienced lots of traumatic things, and she has been developed as a character. It's a different thing. Furthermore, she never altered her behaviour forcing herself to love a man that she had never loved, with Joffrey. And in fact, as you quote, when she discovers the monster that Joffrey is, she learns quickly and hates him, as any normal person would do. This is normal behaviour. Not a particular case of the "unkiss alteration behaviour" (basically, because it doesn't fit the pattern).

And it's not because "her mind tends to alter things when the reality threaten something that she wants".

That's your way of trying to explain your unkiss theory with another axiom, this time "something that she wants". So, we should add that this infatuated person has to threaten something that she wants, in Sandor's case...the idea of protection I guess?

Many of her traumas threaten the reality she wants and she doesn't unkiss them.

Yet, at the same time, you fail to explain how this Works simmilarly with Sandor if she is not already in love with him before the night incident.

You can't say Joffrey is a particular case of your unkiss theory because she is already in love with him  (unless you acknowledge she loves Sandor), because then there is no reason so as not to believe that her other traumas (bigger, btw) can't follow the "unkiss alterations mechanism" if they have some differences, something you deny.

 

That's part of your new axiom of your theory. I won't say anything 'cause I've already made my point.

 

Interesting theory, although not related to your unkiss mechanism theory. I was basically trying to follow your thoughts putting examples of biggest traumas that SHOULD make her develop other mechanisms because as I already explained, the Sandor incident is not AS TRAUMATIC as the OTHERS by far.

So you have failed to respond to me why these other biggest traumas have zero effect on her mind, when a let's call it, "small trauma" (I suppose you you'd call it this way) makes her mind go crazy.

Repeating myself...to sum up:

You can't say Joffrey is a particular case of your unkiss theory because she is already in love with him  (unless you acknowledge she loves Sandor), because then there is no reason so as not to believe that her other traumas (bigger, btw) can't follow the "unkiss alterations mechanism" if they have some differences, something you deny.

"So you have failed to respond to me why these other biggest traumas have zero effect on her mind, when a let's call it, "small trauma" (I suppose you you'd call it this way) makes her mind go crazy"

•You have failed to pick up the numerous coping methods Sansa uses throughout the books. All of her coping methods do not manifest themselves in the same way. But all of them do protect her mind from breaking down.

 

When she is forced to marry Tyrion she copes by focusing on his kindness.

When her Family is killed at Red Wedding she copes by repressing any thought of them.

During the traumatic wedding night, she tries to cope by falling back on her Septa's teachings. 

When the Hound traumatizes her, she copes by altering the incident into a pleasant one.

When Littlefinger kills Ser Dontos and her aunt, she copes by telling herself he's doing it to keep her safe.

When she feels guilty over lying about Marillion, she represses the truth about how her aunt actually died until it seems like a bad dream that's fading away.

 

•It seems like you were too busy romanticizing every scene that she's ever had with the Hound to notice all the different ways Sansa has been using coping mechanism to deal with different traumas.

[Le Cygne]

Kissing therapy! It's the best cure for tenderness.

"She'll be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss..."

Does seem like she steals a sweet kiss from him before it's all over.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I haven't read anything other than the OP and the response from @ravenous reader where I was mentioned, but I will throw in my 2 cents. I doubt anyone has come up with the "correct" answer like I have .

The "UnKiss" is an example of telepathy at work. Feel free to check out this thread where I summarized the basics of how telepathy works in asoiaf, based on evidence in the story and the known mechanics of telepathy in GRRM's Thousand Worlds universe, which so far appears to be exactly the same as telepathy in asoiaf.

As others before me have pointed out, while her siblings telepathically bonded to their direwolves, Sansa was forming a telepathic connection with the Hound. Telepathic abilities are generally enhanced by having the right genes and by traumatic/painful experiences (among other things). Sansa was more than likely a warg like all her siblings (she even has the red hair phenotype to boot) due to her genes. Her abilities likely became somewhat awakened during the time Lady was alive, and her abilities were probably further enhanced by witnessing her father's death and then generally being beaten and constantly terrorized by Joffrey, and it was during this period that she formed connections to her only sources of protection, the Hound and Tyrion (primarily the Hound). Both of these men may have raped her, but instead they both appear to have fallen in love with her and stopped themselves from carrying out the rape. And in the Hound's case, we know that as a child he was severely traumatized by Gregor shoving him into the fire, and then for the rest of his life after that he is afraid, depressed, and in a large sense alone, and all these things should enhance his telepathic abilities. We don't know if House Clegane has any particularly strong telepathic genes, but we do know that the Mountain is effectively a heroin addict, and drugs are yet another method of telepathic enhancement. Basically, being drunk or being high on milk of the poppy puts the brain much closer to a dream-like state. And I wouldn't be surprised if someone powerful like Bloodraven has been taking advantage of Gregor's drug habit to send him powerful visions.

And that brings us to the UnKiss. Most people interpret the UnKiss to be representative of Sansa's infatuation with the Hound, or indicative of Sansa having an unreliable memory due to trauma, or both, leading many readers to be generally mistrustful from now on when reading anything that Sana is only remembering and not witnessing in real time.

But Sansa is not remembering the event incorrectly, per se. Here is the text from the original scene:

Quote

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

So right in that moment, we see Sansa's telepathy at work. Now, it's not immediately apparent that anything telepathic is going on in this moment, because in real life you can generally tell when someone is about to kiss you. There are lots pf physical and social cues at play. But we must keep in mind that in GRRM's writing, telepathy is, for the most part, merely a sci-fi/fantasy exaggeration of our real life mental capabilities. For instance, having sex with someone is the best method of forming a telepathic connection to them, as stated in Nightflyers. And the same is true in real life, even though we don't have "telepathic abilities" to the same extent.

So while a non-telepathic Sansa could have easily thought that the Hound meant to kiss her, we know there is likely something much more powerful going on in this scene, because we can be fairly certain that Sansa is a telepath. And this is my main point: When she thought the Hound meant to kiss her, it is precisely because he did mean to kiss her and she sensed it through their telepathic connection. So even though the Hound physically stopped himself at the last moment, he meant to kiss Sansa in his head, and Sansa telepathically sensed that the Hound meant to kiss her. And because their telepathic connection was so strong in that moment, the memory of the Hounds mental intention to kiss her is stronger than the memory of what he did physically. In other words, they did kiss, but only in their minds. So Sansa is not really misremembering anything. It is simply that the memory of their mental kiss is what stuck in her head, and she conflated it with physical reality, because she doesn't really understand what happened.

Tada!  But really, that's what happened.  

[Meera of Tarth]

23 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The color coding definitely added to it! She might just have to share her tenderness therapy with him, because he has tenderness to recover from, too.

Therapy together, feels better

Yep, I bet he is "traumatised" by that tenderness!

[Meera of Tarth]

51 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

You have failed to pick up the numerous coping methods Sansa uses throughout the books. All of her coping methods do not manifest themselves in the same way. But all of them do protect her mind from breaking down.

 

When her Family is killed at Red Wedding she copes by repressing any thought of them.

During the traumatic wedding night, she tries to cope by falling back on her Septa's teachings. 

When the Hound traumatizes her, she copes by altering the incident into a pleasant one.

When Littlefinger kills Ser Dontos and her aunt, she copes by telling herself he's doing it to keep her safe.

When she feels guilty over lying about Marillion, she represses the truth about how her aunt actually died until it seems like a bad dream that's fading away.

It doesn't respond my points. The unkiss changes her behaviour up to the point that she believes she is in love with a man she doesn't like at all.

Why would her mind do this HUGE THING for a "small traumatic" event (blue part<red part, when quoting the WHOLE THING remember?) but when let's say she has the Wedding Night, she just focus on other things. Please, according to your unkiss theory, she should be doing something more than "focusing on his kindness". Look, It doesn't really work, since she doesn't want to sleep with him, either. Not "I like him and I'll daydream about him kissing me in the wedding night". She didn't "unkiss" him and it was more traumatic!

All of your examples fall into the category of not changing Sansa's mind, but normal behaviour for a person in these situatons. Daydreaming about a man YOU DON'T LOVE previously doesnt fall in this category.  Of course, it doesn't look that you will consider thinking that maybe she is attracted to him previously (and thus your unkiss theory would not make her mind do a 180º twist when "untraumatising" the event and have more credibility. You don't have to ship them, just consider this possibility), so discussing this "beyond" is  discussing in circles all the time.

(Well, LF's example make change her mind indeed, although not up to the point of daydreaming about his kisses, which should be her logical "(un)kiss" consequence, since he has kissed her before in unwanted situations and she should "like it" in order to believe he is his saviour, and not an opportunistic player with unknown moral given his GOT's games revealed to her)

Quote

•It seems like you were too busy romanticizing every scene that she's ever had with the Hound to notice all the different ways Sansa has been using coping mechanism to deal with different traumas.

I'm not busy romanticizing anything. I use something called "asearchoficeandfire". Then, copy+paste. It's easy because it's all wrirtten in the books. And I know she uses different mechanisms, but my point is to show you that the way she handles them is not proportional to the unkiss.

_{BIG TRAUMA}--> small coping mechanism

SMALL "Trauma"---> "I like thinking of his kisses and daydream about them despite him not being a man I had ever wanted to Kiss before"

Not proportional.

[Meera of Tarth]

29 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

.So while a non-telepathic Sansa could have easily thought that the Hound meant to kiss her, we know there is likely something much more powerful going on in this scene, because we can be fairly certain that Sansa is a telepath. And this is my main point: When she thought the Hound meant to kiss her, it is precisely because he did mean to kiss her and she sensed it through their telepathic connection. So even though the Hound physically stopped himself at the last moment, he meant to kiss Sansa in his head, and Sansa telepathically sensed that the Hound meant to kiss her. And because their telepathic connection was so strong in that moment, the memory of the Hounds mental intention to kiss her is stronger than the memory of what he did physically. In other words, they did kiss, but only in their minds. So Sansa is not really misremembering anything. It is simply that the memory of their mental kiss is what stuck in her head, and she conflated it with physical reality, because she doesn't really understand what happened.

Tada!  But really, that's what happened.  

Interesting !

[Houseofthedirewolves]

13 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It doesn't respond my points. The unkiss changes her behaviour up to the point that she believes she is in love with a man she doesn't like at all.

Why would her mind do this HUGE THING for a "small traumatic" event (blue part<red part, when quoting the WHOLE THING remember?) but when let's say she has the Wedding Night, she just focus on other things. Please, according to your unkiss theory, she should be doing something more than "focusing on his kindness". Look, It doesn't really work, since she doesn't want to sleep with him, either. Not "I like him and I'll daydream about him kissing me in the wedding night". She didn't "unkiss" him and it was more traumatic!

All of your examples fall into the category of not changing Sansa's mind, but normal behaviour for a person in these situatons. Daydreaming about a man YOU DON'T LOVE previously doesnt fall in this category.  Of course, it doesn't look that you will consider thinking that maybe she is attracted to him previously (and thus your unkiss theory would not make her mind do a 180º twist when "untraumatising" the event and have more credibility. You don't have to ship them, just consider this possibility), so discussing this "beyond" is  discussing in circles all the time.

(Well, LF's example make change her mind indeed, although not up to the point of daydreaming about his kisses, which should be her logical "(un)kiss" consequence, since he has kissed her before in unwanted situations and she should "like it" in order to believe he is his saviour, and not an opportunistic player with unknown moral given his GOT's games revealed to her)

I'm not busy romanticizing anything. I use something called "asearchoficeandfire". Then, copy+paste. It's easy because it's all wrirtten in the books. And I know she uses different mechanisms, but my point is to show you that the way she handles them is not proportional to the unkiss.

BIG TRAUMA--> small coping mechanism

SMALL "Trauma"---> "I like thinking of his kisses and daydream about them despite him not being a man I had ever wanted to Kiss before"

Daydreaming about a man YOU DON'T LOVE previously doesnt fall in this category.

"I like thinking of his kisses and daydream about them despite him not being a man I had ever wanted to Kiss before"

 

•You must be confused. Sansa has NEVER daydreamed about the Hound's kisses.

Altered memory about a traumatic event is not daydreaming. Daydreaming is NORMAL. You should stop trying to pass off a worrisome and unhealthy habit such as altering reality  as something normal and completely alright. It's not.

The only thing that a kiss based on an altered memory to repress trauma does is make me wonder when she's going to get the proper healing that she needs. Altered memory resulting from trauma doesn't = love story to me, sorry.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Daydreaming about a man YOU DON'T LOVE previously doesnt fall in this category.

Altered memory about a traumatic event is not daydreaming. Daydreaming is NORMAL. You should stop trying to pass off a worrisome and unhealthy habit such as altering reality s as something normal and completely alright. It's not.

She is daydreaming, actively, actually. Daydreaming about their night together, she focuses on what she would have liked, the Kiss, that did not happen. She fantasizes about it.

1 minute ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

The only thing that a kiss based on an altered memory to repress trauma does is make me wonder when she's going to get the proper healing that she needs. Altered memory resulting from trauma doesn't = love story to me, sorry.

You don't have to be sorry. We can agree to disagree. I just need logic to accept a theory  as a possibility and I have not found it here because of the lack of proportionality that your theory lacks of, or if you had agreed on Sansa liking the Hound previously, I'd have found it more credible (for the "untraumatising" part), but it's not the case. But good try anyway.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

Just now, Meera of Tarth said:

She is daydreaming, actively, actually. Daydreaming about their night together, she focuses on what she would have liked, the Kiss, that did not happen. She fantasizes about it.

You don't have to be sorry. We can agree to disagree. I just need logic to accept a theory  as a possibility and I have not found it here because of the lack of proportionality that your theory lacks of, or if you had agreed on Sansa liking the Hound previously, I'd have found it more credible (for the "untraumatising" part), but it's not the case. But good try anyway.

"She is daydreaming, actively, actually. Daydreaming about their night together, she focuses on what she would have liked, the Kiss, that did not happen. She fantasizes about it."

 

•She's not daydreaming. She is not thinking of a kiss "she would have liked". She is thinking of a kiss that she actually believed happened. That is the problem. She has altered reality and convinced herself that something that did not happen actually happened. That is not daydreaming. That is a disturbing disconnect from reality. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"She is daydreaming, actively, actually. Daydreaming about their night together, she focuses on what she would have liked, the Kiss, that did not happen. She fantasizes about it."

 

•She's not daydreaming. She is not thinking of a kiss "she would have liked". She is thinking of a kiss that she actually believed happened. That is the problem. She has altered reality and convinced herself that something that did not happen actually happened. That is not daydreaming. That is a disturbing disconnect from reality. 

But the kiss did actually happen. It was just telepathic . She hasn't altered reality, she has only conflated what happened physically with what happened telepathically.  Sansa is totally fine and not going crazy. She is just becoming a powerful telepath.  

[Houseofthedirewolves]

10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But the kiss did actually happen. It was just telepathic . She hasn't altered reality, she has only conflated what happened physically with what happened telepathically.  Sansa is totally fine and not going crazy. She is just becoming a powerful telepath.  

 

10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But the kiss did actually happen. It was just telepathic . She hasn't altered reality, she has only conflated what happened physically with what happened telepathically.  Sansa is totally fine and not going crazy. She is just becoming a powerful telepath.  

A kiss didn't actually happen. But she believed it would. Anyway I'm starting a new thread posting my theory on why Sansa's mind turned the Blackwater incident into the Unkiss. 

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, Houseofthedirewolves said:

A kiss didn't actually happen. But she believed it would. Anyway I'm starting a new thread posting my theory on why Sansa's mind turned the Blackwater incident into the Unkiss. 

did you read the long-ass response I posted a few minutes ago explaining what I meant?