Will Sansa’s Unkiss amount to nothing more than the active over imagination of a young girl concerning the guy that protected her?

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Cool thing that it also falls under infatuation. 

According to your version...

If she is infatuated because her mind obligues her to after a "so-called" nightamre of rape that is not seen as that in the text (but is so, according to you) then her infatuation so as to make him the protector guy instead of the raper you think he is for her should not have harsh, sexual kisses, but sweet and innocent ones.  You said she wants to make him her protector instead of someone who wants to have sex with her without she wanting it (the "nightamre"), so if "she invents everything", even her daydreams (.....) then she should dream of him kissing him with sweet, soft kisses.

Sorry, I am trying to follow your logic but it gets more complicated every time....

[Springwatch]

@Houseofthedirewolves

You seem to want Sansa to be a lot more traumatised than she actually is. I don't really see it. Her resilience is amazing, and her libido is fine; she had a lot of fun thinking about Loras! Now she's playing around with ideas about Sandor, and in this scene with the Tyrells, her thoughts seem almost boastful:

Quote

Megga couldn't sing, but she was mad to be kissed.... Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had.

All the while, she's facing the prospect of long-term sexual abuse from sadist Joffrey / dwarf Tyrion / murderer Littlefinger. It's sad, but true, that in comparison with those three, Marillion's assault was a minor, short-lived problem. The threat of rape was real and shocking, yes - but that's as far as it got, and Lothor Brune dealt with Marillion swiftly and conclusively. If anything, I bet Sansa only wished that all sexual predators could be dealt with that easily. No trauma.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

28 minutes ago, zandru said:

This is, I think, a better description of Sansa's dream as being a rape nightmare. Plus, she's drifted off to sleep with the sounds of her aunt's ear-splitting screams echoing through the towerhouse. "Erotic"? Hardly. Screaming would be more suggestive of trauma than joy, and a PTSD trigger for the Kingslanding riot.

Otherwise, Sansa is inclined to think of the Hound when she wants a protector. She likes the idea of the Hound more than she likes the actual Sandor Clegane. Sandor is just a big ugly scary guy, generally covered with blood and drunk.

SanSan fans lose all argument when they try to pass her nightmare off as erotic dreams. Because it shows how willing they are to sweep every traumatic moment Sansa has with the Hound under the rug and use it as evidence that she's in love. Absolutely mind boggling. 

•Blackwater to them is suddenly romantic instead of traumatic.

•The Unkiss is not her altering something traumatic that eventually leads to an infatuation with the person that symbolizes protection to her (it's love)

•Her nightmares become erotic dreams.

Their denial is as strong as Sansa's. 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

@Houseofthedirewolves

You seem to want Sansa to be a lot more traumatised than she actually is. I don't really see it. Her resilience is amazing, and her libido is fine; she had a lot of fun thinking about Loras! Now she's playing around with ideas about Sandor, and in this scene with the Tyrells, her thoughts seem almost boastful:

All the while, she's facing the prospect of long-term sexual abuse from sadist Joffrey / dwarf Tyrion / murderer Littlefinger. It's sad, but true, that in comparison with those three, Marillion's assault was a minor, short-lived problem. The threat of rape was real and shocking, yes - but that's as far as it got, and Lothor Brune dealt with Marillion swiftly and conclusively. If anything, I bet Sansa only wished that all sexual predators could be dealt with that easily.

"You seem to want Sansa to be a lot more traumatised than she actually is."

You seem to do a good job ignoring just how traumatized this girl already is.

•Family murdered,

•beaten,

•her dreams destroyed,

•married into the family that murdered her own,

•repeatedly deals with sexual harassment,

•framed for murder,

•taken to the Fingers against her will where she nearly gets raped,

•taken to the Vale where her aunt gets murdered after trying to kill her,

•she's being molested,

• about to be sold into another marriage

But I'm the one thinking she's more traumatized than she actually is because everything that she has been through is just a piece of cake.

Certainly wouldn't DAMAGE a little girl.

 

•Imaging having your whole family murdered and being prevented from properly grieving for them and having to publicly denounce them while someone is like "Phew. People act like she's more traumatized than she actually is." 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

10 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

According to your version...

If she is infatuated because her mind obligues her to after a "so-called" nightamre of rape that is not seen as that in the text (but is so, according to you) then her infatuation so as to make him the protector guy instead of the raper you think he is for her should not have harsh, sexual kisses, but sweet and innocent ones.  You said she wants to make him her protector instead of someone who wants to have sex with her without she wanting it (the "nightamre"), so if "she invents everything", even her daydreams (.....) then she should dream of him kissing him with sweet, soft kisses.

Sorry, I am trying to follow your logic but it gets more complicated every time....

"Sorry, I am trying to follow your logic but it gets more complicated every time"

Funny you should say this when what you just wrote made absolutely no sense.

If she is infatuated because her mind obligues her to after a "so-called" nightamre of rape  --> That was never implied by me. That's your own conclusion. 

•I said her infatuation developed as she thinks more and more of her protector during times in which she needs protection.

•Her altering of her memory of her protector started in Kingslanding after the Hound left.

•Her romanticizing of the trauma begins shortly after she was rejected by Loras. Even though she continued to stubbornly cling to thoughts of Loras until she was forced to marry Tyrion.

"hen her infatuation so as to make him the protector guy instead of the raper you think he is for her should not have harsh, sexual kisses, but sweet and innocent ones."    ---->   The Hound is a harsh guy. With a harsh voice and harsh manner. Why would kisses from him be any different?   -----> Seriously was your whole argument based on him not kissing her softly in her altered memories? O_O

[Springwatch]

@Houseofthedirewolves Yes! that's what I'm saying. Sansa has suffered enormously. She is amazingly resilient to be able to act normally, and think about kissing and other normal teenage thoughts - even though she grieves at other times.

Sandor is a special case, as you'll know if you read my post upthread. She trusts him. Besides, she's learned harsh lessons about the importance of telling friend from foe. On balance, he was good for her. Her enemies are other people.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

24 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

@Houseofthedirewolves

You seem to want Sansa to be a lot more traumatised than she actually is. I don't really see it. Her resilience is amazing, and her libido is fine; she had a lot of fun thinking about Loras! Now she's playing around with ideas about Sandor, and in this scene with the Tyrells, her thoughts seem almost boastful:

All the while, she's facing the prospect of long-term sexual abuse from sadist Joffrey / dwarf Tyrion / murderer Littlefinger. It's sad, but true, that in comparison with those three, Marillion's assault was a minor, short-lived problem. The threat of rape was real and shocking, yes - but that's as far as it got, and Lothor Brune dealt with Marillion swiftly and conclusively. If anything, I bet Sansa only wished that all sexual predators could be dealt with that easily.

"Marillion's assault was a minor, short-lived problem."

..................................................................................  What?

Do you think that makes it any less traumatic? Do you know how much even an attempted rape assault can affect someone psychologically?

[Springwatch]

Just now, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"Marillion's assault was a minor, short-lived problem."

..................................................................................  What?

Do you think that makes it any less traumatic? Do you know how much even an attempted rape assault can affect someone psychologically?

Read it again.

[zandru]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She is amazingly resilient to be able to act normally, and think about kissing and other normal teenage thoughts - even though she grieves at other times.

This really is not all that astounding. Most people muddle through this well. There's nothing particular exceptional about Sansa, other than her looks and her birthright. She's not a "heroic" character, as shown so far. She's someone who merely floats along in the flood, keeping her own head above water, ironically by keeping her head down.

4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She trusts him.

I'd say not, based upon the Blackwater aftermath. She trusted a drunken clown more.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

@Houseofthedirewolves Yes! that's what I'm saying. Sansa has suffered enormously. She is amazingly resilient to be able to act normally, and think about kissing and other normal teenage thoughts - even though she grieves at other times.

Sandor is a special case, as you'll know if you read my post upthread. She trusts him. Besides, she's learned harsh lessons about the importance of telling friend from foe. On balance, he was good for her. Her enemies are other people.

Spare me the "she trusts him". "He doesn't frighten her". "He's special" because he traumatized her with his behavior JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

 “I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.” He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened.

The Hound repeatedly frightening her until she was afraid that he would kill her?  

His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your life.” 

Such a romantic moment for a frightened twelve year old.

please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, Please don’t.  She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again

 

Be STILL my heart!

 

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking

 

And this happens AFTER she sings for him she is STILL frightened for her LIFE.

 

She was OBVIOUSLY TRAUMATIZED from her experience with him at Blackwater.

So he added to her suffering and she altered her memory of his behavior because she still needs him as a protector.

[Springwatch]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

...

I'd say not, based upon the Blackwater aftermath. She trusted a drunken clown more.

Perhaps I should have said, she has faith in him. Escaping together after the Blackwater was a crazy idea. Even he doesn't turn it into a firm offer.

[Springwatch]

10 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

...

 

She was OBVIOUSLY TRAUMATIZED from her experience with him at Blackwater.

So he added to her suffering and she altered her memory of his behavior because she still needs him as a protector.

It's the conclusion here (bolded) that doesn't make any sense to me. Does she need protecting by him, or from him? Could you enlarge?

(Got to go; thanks for the thread @Houseofthedirewolves.)

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Funny you should say this when what you just wrote made absolutely no sense.

Funny because I was just summarising what you were saying to point out the part that made no sense according to your analysis. And you even followed me until now. Whatever.

3 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

That was never implied by me. That's your own conclusion. 

You say she has a dream about Tyrion's intentions (wedding night, Tyrion's eyes devouring her--> she didn't want to have sex with him) and then we read that Sandor is in her bed and you say she dreams about that because she is traumatised because of that day with him.

I say this is because she sexually desires him. You say that it's because ??? How do you interpret Sandor's part in the dream? What are his intentions in the dream and how does she respond?

3 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"hen her infatuation so as to make him the protector guy instead of the raper you think he is for her should not have harsh, sexual kisses, but sweet and innocent ones."    ---->   The Hound is a harsh guy. With a harsh voice and harsh manner. Why would kisses from him be any different?   -----> Seriously was your whole argument based on him not kissing her softly in her altered memories? O_O

Then, If he is a harsh guy, with a harsh manner, that traumatised her in her bed....why would she dream about kisses that she desires?

Shouldn't she avoid daydreaming about any kisses with him?

[Houseofthedirewolves]

6 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Read it again.

Yup. She had a NIGHTMARE right after. Sounds right. She also continues to repress and alter things. Sounds like how a child copes when she's not getting proper mental and emotional help.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

Just now, Springwatch said:

It's the conclusion here (bolded) that doesn't make any sense to me. Does she need protecting by him, or from him? Could you enlarge?

Sansa sees the Hound as her protector. Her protector traumatized her and frightened her. She alters her memory of her trauma into something pleasant. By turning her memory of the Hound into something pleasant and romanticizing the Blackwater incident, she can continue to view him in a positive light as her protector.

Remember when Joffrey nearly hacked her sister and lied and this led to Lady getting killed.The boy she believed she was in love with caused her to lose Lady. Sansa  altered her memory of that traumatic incident and convinced herself that Joffrey was innocent. Everything was Arya's fault. Her beautiful Joffery couldn't have had any part in her pain.

That's OUR first taste of how Sansa alters things so that she can cope. If you are unable to realize this coping method of hers when it comes to the Blackwater incident being altered into the memory of the Unkiss that's your problem.

[zandru]

1 minute ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Yup. She had a NIGHTMARE right after. Sounds right. She also continues to repress and alter things.

Indeed. This pairs with Sansa's nightmare when she had her first period, right after her frightening encounter with the Hound on the roof. There, he put his sword to her neck and they discuss violence and theology.

Sandor had brought up saving her during the riot and how she had never a word of thanks for him in all the time since. After Sansa goes back to her quarters, she re-lives the riot in her dreams. She cries out for everyone BUT the Hound, but nobody comes to her aid, and she's cut apart by the mob's blades.

So Sandor Clegane continues to scare her, in spite of how useful he's been to her at times. She's glad for the useful parts (but not enough to ever thank him), but her overall feeling towards him seems to be fear, not some kind of eroticism.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

22 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Funny because I was just summarising what you were saying to point out the part that made no sense according to your analysis. And you even followed me until now. Whatever.

You say she has a dream about Tyrion's intentions (wedding night, Tyrion's eyes devouring her--> she didn't want to have sex with him) and then we read that Sandor is in her bed and you say she dreams about that because she is traumatised because of that day with him.

I say this is because she sexually desires him. You say that it's because ??? How do you interpret Sandor's part in the dream? What are his intentions in the dream and how does she respond?

Then, If he is a harsh guy, with a harsh manner, that traumatised her in her bed....why would she dream about kisses that she desires?

Shouldn't she avoid daydreaming about any kisses with him?

"You say she has a dream about Tyrion's intentions (wedding night, Tyrion's eyes devouring her--> she didn't want to have sex with him) and then we read that Sandor is in her bed and you say she dreams about that because she is traumatised because of that day with him.

I say this is because she sexually desires him. You say that it's because ??? How do you interpret Sandor's part in the dream?"

•Sandor's part in the dream is that he also INFLICTED TRAUMA ON HER JUST LIKE TYRION. She is relieving those two traumas and they're merging  together playing out in the order that they took place. If you believe near rape leads to erotic dreams you need to take a moment and rethink why you believe that. 

•Sansa responds by waking up from her nightmare and wishing for her direwolf. Tada. Magical.

 

"Then, If he is a harsh guy, with a harsh manner, that traumatised her in her bed....why would she dream about kisses that she desires?"

•When did she dream about kisses? If you're talking about her altered memory then read below:

Sansa sees the Hound as her protector. Her protector traumatized her and frightened her. She alters her memory of her trauma into something pleasant. By turning her memory of the Hound into something pleasant and romanticizing the Blackwater incident, she can continue to view him in a positive light as her protector.

Remember when Joffrey nearly hacked her sister and lied and this led to Lady getting killed.The boy she believed she was in love with caused her to lose Lady. Sansa  altered her memory of that traumatic incident and convinced herself that Joffrey was innocent. Everything was Arya's fault. Her beautiful Joffery couldn't have had any part in her pain.

That's OUR first taste of how Sansa alters things so that she can cope. If you are unable to realize this coping method of hers when it comes to the Blackwater incident being altered into the memory of the Unkiss that's your problem.

[zandru]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Given that she imagines the hound were Lady, I'd say that the Hound is very close to her heart.  

Huh? Imagining that an old dog is her DIREWOLF is Sansa thinking of Sandor? Why then didn't Sansa say "I wish you were the Hound"? or "I wish you were Sandor Clegane"?

Listen, Lady and the Hound were total opposites. Lady was tame and walked on a leash at Sansa's command. Sandor is beyond her control or command. Lady was small* and delicate; Sandor huge, rough, and harsh. Sandor also makes a distinction between dogs (and metaphorically himself) and wolves (Starks) - but he never considers Sansa to be a "wolf", just a talking parrot or caged bird.

I know a lot of folks like to strain potential metaphors in the text well beyond sense, and I'd say this is one of them.

---------

* Lady never grew to be huge, like the other Starks' wolves, because she died so young.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Sandor's part in the dream is that he also INFLICTED TRAUMA ON HER JUST LIKE TYRION. She is relieving those two traumas and they're merging  together playing out in the order that they took place. If you believe near rape leads to erotic dreams you need to take a moment and rethink why you believe that. 

Sansa responds by waking up from her nightmare and wishing for her direwolf. Tada. Magical.

See, I'm not a fan of the knife thing at all although I understand its meaning in the story (the sexual symbolism).

But in her dream with Sandor there is no knife (interestingly the only real fear about the incident) and there is the emphasis on the song part. The song, which was what lead him to tell her "Little bird" and throw away the knife. If she actually is merging those two traumas, why is the Sandor part changed for the better? Conversely, she remembers the Tyrion part as it happened.

Maybe she understood that he would never hurt her and, although the knife part  disgusted her, now that she understands he was there to tell her he was gonna protect her, she understands everything: he was drunk and tired, he would never hurt her, he was meaning other things, the opposite: protect her, he'd kill anyone who would hurt her as he told her at the beginning.....the song calms him down and makes him say  "Little Bird" again. And I repeat, I'm not a fan of the knife thing.

As for what leads to what, I'm not a psychologist so as to know about it. My normal thinking says that it doesn't, but as I have said before, subcounscious is tricky. It's interesting that I wrote about the possibility of it not being an erotic dream (or not just that, although I think it's the case, analysing their story together as a whole, I think that is what the writer is implying) but I suppose you didn't read what I wrote, that he could be "her hero" protecting her from Tyrion's previous dream. In a subcounscious way, she might juxtapose those two sexual dreaming experiences.

And you didn't respond to my question about how does she feel about that. She is doing nothing while Sandor goes to her bed in the dream while she describes Tyrion's eyes with disgust, but now looks like the possible trauma disappeared this time in the narrative .

Nothing suggests she doesn't want it. The Lady Part doesn't mean she is scared by the Hound. If you mean she is scared and needs protection (Lady) then it could be she is scared by the Tyrion nightmare, and thus, both Sandor and Lady are the ones she cares about. It could also be that she needs a familiar face after these experiences, before the dream, during the nightmare and the now "different version" of the Hound approach to her, that she fails to recognise because she doesn't acknowledge her growing feelings for him.  It can also be something not attached to the dreams, or it can also be something positive in regards to Sandor, because Lady (positive) might remind her of him (just dreamed about).

In fact, the connection is positive:

Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur.

Quote

"Then, If he is a harsh guy, with a harsh manner, that traumatised her in her bed....why would she dream about kisses that she desires?"

When did she dream about kisses? If you're talking about her altered memory then read below:

Sansa sees the Hound as her protector. Her protector traumatized her and frightened her. She alters her memory of her trauma into something pleasant. By turning her memory of the Hound into something pleasant and romanticizing the Blackwater incident, she can continue to view him in a positive light as her protector.

Remember when Joffrey nearly hacked her sister and lied and this led to Lady getting killed.The boy she believed she was in love with caused her to lose Lady. Sansa  altered her memory of that traumatic incident and convinced herself that Joffrey was innocent. Everything was Arya's fault. Her beautiful Joffery couldn't have had any part in her pain.

That's OUR first taste of how Sansa alters things so that she can cope. If you are unable to realize this coping method of hers when it comes to the Blackwater incident being altered into the memory of the Unkiss that's your problem.

I meant daydream.

Oh, it doesn't have to be something pleasant if her dream about him is connected with trauma and nightmares with sexual tones. In fact, because of the fact that there was a sexual part in the real incident she should never daydream about him if she really is so traumatised that she hasn't digested the whole thing, which I don't think was the case considering everything that Sansa has experienced, just as she never daydreams about Tyrion's wedding night being pleasant.

The fact that he saved her many times doesn't mean she has to alter this memory that "traumatised" her into something pleasant that includes kisses. If she is so "traumatised" as you say, she should alter it into something like a conversation but she should repress all the sexual connotations, including the Kiss. That's what I am trying to say all the time. It's my take and what seems logical to me given your premise that she is still traumatised (a premise which I disagree with, btw).

And I have no problem understanding your analysis, I'm just debating what I think is not correct in regards to your explanations and the dream.

A girl is intelligent enough to daydream about what she wants. Really, people don't daydream about guys who have caused sexually traumatic experiences.

Make me a baby, Petyr," she screamed, "make me another sweet little baby. Oh, Petyr, my precious, my precious, PEEEEEETYR!" Her last shriek was so loud that it set the dogs to barking, and two of her aunt's ladies could scarce contain their mirth.

Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. A light rain was falling on the remains of the feast, but the air smelled fresh and clean. The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane. Did he know that they'd killed Joffrey? Would he care? He had been the prince's sworn shield for years.

She stayed outside for a long time. When at last she sought her own bed, wet and chilled, only the dim glow of a peat fire lit the darkened hall. There was no sound from above. The young singer sat in a corner, playing a slow song to himself. One of her aunt's maids was kissing a knight in Lord Petyr's chair, their hands busy beneath each other's clothing. Several men had drunk themselves to sleep, and one was in the privy, being noisily sick. Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur.

 

It doesn't sound as she is traumatised.....He remembers the Hound in a positive way. She is not infatuated here either. It's just that when she wants....like when she is kissed.....daydreams about the Kiss she now would want to have (at that moment she didn't want it because she was scared and confused, but now that she has digested everything she understands Sandor, she remembers what he really was for her all the time (her friend) and starts to desire him).

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

•Oh My gosh these people! She DID NOT have an erotic dream. The girl was NEARLY RAPED and had A NIGHTMARE. Like wtf? Who nearly gets raped and have erotic dreams about two of the most traumatic moments in their lives? NO ONE. Who gets nearly raped and has a nightmare (merging the most traumatic sexually based moments of her life into one) LOTS of people. 

SanSan shippers continuing to ignore Sansa's trauma to convince themselves the way she deals with them (from altered memories to nightmare) is some proof that she's in looooooooooooove.

She was just nearly raped and it triggered a nightmare but who cares about her psychological well being. It was an erotic dream because thirteen year olds are just so turned on by almost getting raped.

Sansa could have been legally raped by Tyrion, she was nearly raped by Marillion, but Sandorian Luthor orders Marillion away, and she replaces Sandor in the marrige bed, and she pats the dog. Nothing of Sandor in the bed says nightmare. She's just startled by it, she wakes and then she pets the dog.

Nobody ignores trauma. Trauma is seeing your father behead. Trauma is being beaten and stripped in front of a whole court room. Trauma is a vicious king, who already showed enjoyment in abusing you, threatening to rape you. Trauma is being threatened into marriage to your enemy who also ends up having your reminaing family slaughtered. Sandor scared her, yes. He did not traumatize her, because he did not rape her, nor would he have. And she does not believe that he would actually hurt her. Not at the top of the tower. Not in her room. Guess what? He didn't? And he didn't get the song he hoped for. Instead he got a song that humbled him. Should he have been there in that state that night? No. Should he have behaved like he did? No. But hey out of all the things she witnessed and dealt with, her biggest trauma according to you is Sandor.

Stop speaking about posters in general, or even assume that someone is a "shipper". Stop using straw men. Nobody here is claiming that people get turned on by almost getting raped. You are cherry picking again, ignoring that the Sandor stand-in stepped in, and Lysa's sexual enjoyment of her wedding night was inescapable, and that after the dream she pets the dog and wishes he's more wolf.