How could Robb have won Walder Frey back?

[Agent 326]

How could Robb have assured that Walder would be loyal?

Here are my terms that I would offer Walder Frey,

Merrit Frey gets Darry

The apology

Emmon Frey gets Casterly Rock when Robb takes it

Hosteen Frey gets Crakehall when Robb takes it

Harrenhal for Black Walder (why not, it distances him from his kin, gives him a place that is said to be cursed and Walder Frey's 5th wife was a Whent, however she died before she could give Walder children)

Petyr Pimple gets Nightsong upon Robb taking it

Edmure Roslin marriage

Symond Frey is made Master of Coin

Arya Elmar marriage is still in place

Perwyn Frey gets Rosby when Robb takes it

Marrying Catelyn to one of Walder Frey's sons or grandsons

Most of these choices are specific. I also am trying to balance the power between the many Frey factions. I could've given Darry to one of Cleos's sons but I chose against it because Emmon already got Casterly Rock and lord paramountship of the Westernlands some really powerful titles.  I gave Hosteen Crakehall because he is the first born of Walder's children by his third wife who was a Crakehall. I figured no matter what Master of Coin would go to a Frey I just didn't know which one. Steveron if he didn't die, but since he died I opted to chose Symond because he is a coin counter. Must I explain to you the Arya Elmar marriage, Edmure Roslin marriage, the apology, or Catelyn marrying one of Walder Frey's sons or grandsons. Petyr Pimple is married to a Caron which is why I chose to give him Nightsong. I chose to give Perwyn Rosby because his mom was a Rosby.

 

And this is against

Ramsay gets to marry "Arya Stark" though  it turns out that it is actually Jeyne Poole and she ends up motivating Theon to escape.

Roose Bolton is giving the title of Warden of the North, until Tyrion and Sansa have a son and after he has become a man grown. And at that point Roose will likely be dead and Ramsay will be Warden of the North and he won't be happy to have to give up being Lord Paramount of the North, Warden of the North and Winterfell.

Emmon Frey gets Riverrun and all lands and incomes.

Lancel is to marry one of Walder Frey's daughters/ granddaughters and he will get Darry. However he chose to forsake his marriage and Darry.

Daven Lannister will have to marry one of Walder Frey's daughters/ granddaughters.

Joy will marry one of Walder Frey's bastard sons. I don't remember which one.

Frey pies.

No one trusts the Freys anymore and being a Frey is an insult. Though House Frey wasn't very popular to begin with as they are basically a giant toll both.

A Frey Civil War 

 

The BWB starts to kill Freys and their soldiers (Petyr Pimple, Merrit, Raymun, likely a few more will happen in future books).

So which would you chose? Would you accept mine? Would you change mine?

[Bernie Mac]

26 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

How could Robb have assured that Walder would be loyal?

Here are my terms that I would offer Walder Frey,

Merrit Frey gets Darry

Possible. 

Quote

The apology

Emmon Frey gets Casterly Rock when Robb takes it

Hosteen Frey gets Crakehall when Robb takes it

No one thought that Robb was going to take Casterly Rock or Crakehall after the Blackwater. He may as well promise them Braavos and Volantis. Making empty promises for lands that Robb does not own is not going to convince the Freys to join him. 

Quote

Harrenhal for Black Walder (why not, it distances him from his kin, gives him a place that is said to be cursed and Walder Frey's 5th wife was a Whent, however she died before she could give Walder children)

Sure. Possible. 

Quote

Petyr Pimple gets Nightsong upon Robb taking it

How exactly does Robb have a chance of doing this?

 

I won't go on as these proposals seem a little far fetched. The Freys may have meant that Robb kept hold of the North and the Riverlands, they would not have helped him take the Westerlands, Crownlands and Stormlands. 

 

[Lion of the West]

I don't think there was much that Robb could have done. Walder's pride was the thing that got hurt and he was a prickly one from the start.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Very generous Frey are important but not the only powerful bannermen.

 

Riverrun marriage should be enough, if he had not lost Winterfell and Stannis had not lost Kings Landing, losing the war cost him the Boltons and the Freys.  If he had defeated Tywin the Freys would have stayed in their place and has to duck it up

[HaeSuse]

Yea, maybe that would've done it. But holy moses, really? That's giving half the kingdom to the worst major house in Westeros. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Problem is, Robb's words are worthless.  Can you really trust him to uphold his end of the deal?  I don't think so.  All those deals assume Robb would keep his word.  Any deal with Robb must require payment in advance.  He's untrustworthy.

[Protagoras]

Well, first of all I think such a deal would be impossible to reach. Walder Frey is very justifiably pissed on Robbs code of conduct and personal honor and he did indeed not make an alliance in the first place to get a Tully. So the first thing to understand here is that Robbs compensation is not even close to the sum of payment Walder needs. And Walder have no real reason to trust a oathbreaker a second time.

And Walder need far more now than what he was promised in the first place. Why? Because not only do Robb have to give something to Walder that is equivalent to what he was promised, he also need to pay extra for the damage caused, the emotional suffering, Walders feelings (yes, I am serious) and especially his lack of faith and that he broke the deal in the first place. Because, a teeth for a teeth is not really fair - the person struck should have AT LEAST 2 teeths in compensation, one for the teeth and one for the violence in the first place. "He started it" IS a good argument and such action should come with a cost.

So what compensation are we talking here? Well, my suggestion (if I was Walder) would be:

• House Frey is now the new lord paramount of Riverlands, answerable only to the Starks. They have full authority over all their new vassals, including the Tullys and henceforth can govern said region as they see fit, including taxes, military and other matters, as long as it doesn´t interfere with the Starks wishers, and those wishes are only relevant until a certain extent. In 95% of all cases, Freys are the law in Riverlands. Robb are also responsible to defend Riverlands at all costs and to recover all parts of its territory in the south.
• House Frey is immediatly given Harrenhal and Darry when taken, to do with however they please. They also have the right to keep any and all estates and castles in Riverlands without a clear line of succession that appears later in the war.
• House Frey gets a sincere apology from Robb with much, MUCH humiliation from Robbs side.
• House Frey will get at least 10 more marriages to prominent families in the North, that takes place before any fighting begins anew. Thouse houses that have to marry a Frey (and as close to the main line as possible with the intent that the estate passes, if poosible to a child of that union) are: Bolton, Dustin, Manderley, Karstark, Umber, Flint (2 of them), Tallhart, Ryswell and Reed. In addition, the Edmure-Roslin marriage takes place as well and so does Aryas marriage if she is found.
• A huge amount of money as retribution for broken promises (No less than 500.000 gold dragons, and at least half in cash).
• Some minor things like squire-taking, councillors etc need to have a clear Frey benefit.
• To top it off, Catelyn will be held hostage under pain of death until Robbs future hier has married a Frey and then released (if alive). 

But I doubt Robb would ever accept this.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Plain and simple: he couldn't.

That said...

2 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Emmon Frey gets Casterly Rock when Robb takes it

Shit, why not Braavos?...

[Bernie Mac]

25 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

 

But I doubt Robb would ever accept this.

Who cares if Robb would find it acceptable, Edmure ,and probably the Blackfish, most assuredly would not. Giving away the Lordship of the Riverlands is going to cost Robb the Tullys and the Riverland Houses that are only loyal to him due to Edmure. 

He likely loses just as many soldiers as he gains with that offer. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't think there was much that Robb could have done. Walder's pride was the thing that got hurt and he was a prickly one from the start.

Gotta agree with that. 

[zandru]

I'm with the rest of y'all - Robb would have to give Walder Frey most of Westeros, assuming he could win it. And still, Robb would never, ever be able to trust Frey as far as he could throw the Twins.

Robb might have done better to just take him down. Would probably have lost fewer men than he did by attending that wedding. I'm only half joking. I realize the Twins would probably be more impregnable than Riverrun, and that Tywin Lannister would seize the advantage to get the Freys in his power by rushing to aid them. Still, the House(s) of Frey are a cancer on the realm with their monopoly power, combined with greed and selfishness.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I posted in the other thread with this title, but I guess that was a duplicate. Here's my original response:

Unfortunately, I'm not sure anything would have placated Walder at this point. Once it began to look like the North was going to lose, he probably started thinking of ways to jump ship. The broken marriage pact was just the perfect excuse. (I don't have the links, but I have seen people in the past claim that there were already signs of Walder and Roose being in cahoots with Tywin before then).

Something I think Robb could have done that doesn't get mentioned very often is to have had Jeyne married off to one of his bannerman instead of marrying her himself. Tyrion considers doing this with Shae, and Cersei mentions at one point that there were plenty of other women throughout Westerosi history who were either no longer maidens or pregnant with bastards that were quickly married to a minor lord as a cover-up. Robb had plenty of unmarried men in his retinue who likely would not have minded being married to a pretty young woman who had slept with their king once. I'm curious if that would have been Catelyn's advice had she been there the morning after. 

[Protagoras]

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Who cares if Robb would find it acceptable, Edmure ,and probably the Blackfish, most assuredly would not. Giving away the Lordship of the Riverlands is going to cost Robb the Tullys and the Riverland Houses that are only loyal to him due to Edmure. 

He likely loses just as many soldiers as he gains with that offer. 

Indeed he does. But this is where I would start my negotiations if I were Walder. And this thread is about appeasing Walder.

As I see it, that lordparamount-ship of Riverlands is one of the few things Robb in theory can use to cut a deal with the Freys. A carrot that compensates for the lack of a kingly marriage. Certainly he would lose even more in doing so, but that was never the question. The question was to present a deal Walder would accept and to be loyal in the future.

[Lord Wraith]

Hard to say. Robb has basically lost the war at this point and Walder Frey isn't known for joining the losing side.

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

How could Robb have assured that Walder would be loyal?

Here are my terms that I would offer Walder Frey,

Merrit Frey gets Darry

The apology

Emmon Frey gets Casterly Rock when Robb takes it

Hosteen Frey gets Crakehall when Robb takes it

Harrenhal for Black Walder (why not, it distances him from his kin, gives him a place that is said to be cursed and Walder Frey's 5th wife was a Whent, however she died before she could give Walder children)

Petyr Pimple gets Nightsong upon Robb taking it

Edmure Roslin marriage

Symond Frey is made Master of Coin

Arya Elmar marriage is still in place

Perwyn Frey gets Rosby when Robb takes it

Marrying Catelyn to one of Walder Frey's sons or grandsons

Most of these choices are specific. I also am trying to balance the power between the many Frey factions. I could've given Darry to one of Cleos's sons but I chose against it because Emmon already got Casterly Rock and lord paramountship of the Westernlands some really powerful titles.  I gave Hosteen Crakehall because he is the first born of Walder's children by his third wife who was a Crakehall. I figured no matter what Master of Coin would go to a Frey I just didn't know which one. Steveron if he didn't die, but since he died I opted to chose Symond because he is a coin counter. Must I explain to you the Arya Elmar marriage, Edmure Roslin marriage, the apology, or Catelyn marrying one of Walder Frey's sons or grandsons. Petyr Pimple is married to a Caron which is why I chose to give him Nightsong. I chose to give Perwyn Rosby because his mom was a Rosby.

 

And this is against

Ramsay gets to marry "Arya Stark" though  it turns out that it is actually Jeyne Poole and she ends up motivating Theon to escape.

Roose Bolton is giving the title of Warden of the North, until Tyrion and Sansa have a son and after he has become a man grown. And at that point Roose will likely be dead and Ramsay will be Warden of the North and he won't be happy to have to give up being Lord Paramount of the North, Warden of the North and Winterfell.

Emmon Frey gets Riverrun and all lands and incomes.

Lancel is to marry one of Walder Frey's daughters/ granddaughters and he will get Darry. However he chose to forsake his marriage and Darry.

Daven Lannister will have to marry one of Walder Frey's daughters/ granddaughters.

Joy will marry one of Walder Frey's bastard sons. I don't remember which one.

Frey pies.

No one trusts the Freys anymore and being a Frey is an insult. Though House Frey wasn't very popular to begin with as they are basically a giant toll both.

A Frey Civil War 

 

The BWB starts to kill Freys and their soldiers (Petyr Pimple, Merrit, Raymun, likely a few more will happen in future books).

So which would you chose? Would you accept mine? Would you change mine?

The part about Ramsay marrying "Arya Stark"... would Robb check the girl? Just in case? Jeyne has brown eyes, Arya has grey.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

I don't think Robb could've done anything. Walder Frey isn't a "forgive and forget" type of dude, and no matter what Robb offered him, words are wind and Walder would remember the first time they had come to an agreement, Robb reneged on it because of love/pussy. And to be honest, I don't really blame Walder. Robb's mother's family looks down on the Freys as nothing more than upjumped toll-takers, and he's had to constantly endure jibes and snide remarks over the years (largely justified, but still). Capitulating to Robb Stark after being screwed over by him once would likely elicit more criticism of the Freys as being so desperate for the Stark/Tully leavings that they'll take anything offered, and if that offer is revoked, they'll settle for anything else.

[Praetor Xyn]

He would have basically needed to have a force so large even without the Freys that there was no doubt he would win. Walter's whole thing is being a coward who sits on the fence until he's certain he can join the winning side.

[Barbrey Dustin]

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Problem is, Robb's words are worthless.  Can you really trust him to uphold his end of the deal?  I don't think so.  All those deals assume Robb would keep his word.  Any deal with Robb must require payment in advance.  He's untrustworthy.

 

4 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Well, first of all I think such a deal would be impossible to reach. Walder Frey is very justifiably pissed on Robbs code of conduct and personal honor and he did indeed not make an alliance in the first place to get a Tully. So the first thing to understand here is that Robbs compensation is not even close to the sum of payment Walder needs. And Walder have no real reason to trust a oathbreaker a second time.

And Walder need far more now than what he was promised in the first place. Why? Because not only do Robb have to give something to Walder that is equivalent to what he was promised, he also need to pay extra for the damage caused, the emotional suffering, Walders feelings (yes, I am serious) and especially his lack of faith and that he broke the deal in the first place. Because, a teeth for a teeth is not really fair - the person struck should have AT LEAST 2 teeths in compensation, one for the teeth and one for the violence in the first place. "He started it" IS a good argument and such action should come with a cost.

So what compensation are we talking here? Well, my suggestion (if I was Walder) would be:

• House Frey is now the new lord paramount of Riverlands, answerable only to the Starks. They have full authority over all their new vassals, including the Tullys and henceforth can govern said region as they see fit, including taxes, military and other matters, as long as it doesn´t interfere with the Starks wishers, and those wishes are only relevant until a certain extent. In 95% of all cases, Freys are the law in Riverlands. Robb are also responsible to defend Riverlands at all costs and to recover all parts of its territory in the south.
• House Frey is immediatly given Harrenhal and Darry when taken, to do with however they please. They also have the right to keep any and all estates and castles in Riverlands without a clear line of succession that appears later in the war.
• House Frey gets a sincere apology from Robb with much, MUCH humiliation from Robbs side.
• House Frey will get at least 10 more marriages to prominent families in the North, that takes place before any fighting begins anew. Thouse houses that have to marry a Frey (and as close to the main line as possible with the intent that the estate passes, if poosible to a child of that union) are: Bolton, Dustin, Manderley, Karstark, Umber, Flint (2 of them), Tallhart, Ryswell and Reed. In addition, the Edmure-Roslin marriage takes place as well and so does Aryas marriage if she is found.
• A huge amount of money as retribution for broken promises (No less than 500.000 gold dragons, and at least half in cash).
• Some minor things like squire-taking, councillors etc need to have a clear Frey benefit.
• To top it off, Catelyn will be held hostage under pain of death until Robbs future hier has married a Frey and then released (if alive). 

But I doubt Robb would ever accept this.

Good points from both of you.  I will add a few more requirement to this list.

Arya Stark will reside at The Twins and will marry the man that Lord Walder chooses for her.  She will function in the same capacity as Theon Greyjoy did for the Starks.  Hostage.  (cough, cough, I meant ward) Rickon Stark will marry little Cersei Frey.  

The big shadow over any agreement is Robb himself.  He's a proven liar and anything he says cannot be relied upon.  I would ask for everything in advance.

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

He would have basically needed to have a force so large even without the Freys that there was no doubt he would win. Walter's whole thing is being a coward who sits on the fence until he's certain he can join the winning side.

Yo do realise that is wrong, right? He would never have joined Robb in the first place if that was the case as Robb was going up against the Crown before the Reach and Stormlands had rebelled. 

[TMIFairy]

How could Robb had won Frey over after breaking his betrothal agreement?

Only several sound victories over the Lannisters would do.

Like taking Lannisport? Or Casterly Rock?

Politics always is a combination of "might makes right" and "what can I get away with?". Works both ways.

As much as Walder was pissed off at Robb he did what he did because he could.

Had Robb destroyed all Lannister armies in the West and been blocking Casterly Rock and Lannisport, and in the East his victorious armies kept Tywin to the east of Harenhall and could prowl within site of KL - then Frey would had grit his teeth (he still has some left?), raped his wife/some maid to blow off steam, whined to the Seven Heavens for everybody to hear about "bad King Robb", but ultimately married off Roslin to Edmure and stayed "loyal".

He originally was getting a marriage to a Great Lord - Robb becoming royalty was an "accident" and "not part of the deal".

Hence a marriage one step down - to a Lord Paramount - still is a very prestigeous alliance. Comparable to that of his son to Genna Lannister.

Robb - in order to "get away" with his oath breaking would have to throw Frey some bones - Darry is a good example. By custom it should go to Lady Mariya and through her to Little Walder anyway but ... "might makes right" and thus custom, tradition, or hazy Law is not always followed. Robb coming out strongly in support for Lady Mariya's inheritance would be a smart move. And all sorts of "court positions" for Frey's at Riverrun are a given. However, such positions to the bride's family would had happened regardless of what House she came from.

But the gist of what I am trying to say is that Frey organised the Red Wedding because he both had a motive and opportunity. Take away the opportunity - Robb losing the war, Bolton ready to bolt - and nothing happens ...