Jump to content

What Mirri did to Khal Drogo, and what Qyburn did to The Mountain.


Grover Bluejoy

Recommended Posts

Let me preface this by stating that this isn't an exceptionally deep post or subject matter here; you won't be finding quotes or cross-references or tenuous connections within the text; this is just me positing about necromancy and the effects it has on the individual.

We've seen Beric and Cat brought back through "The Lord of Light". Contrast that with Gregor and Drogo who were brought back under entirely different methods. The latter through sorcery, like Cat and Beric, and the former (as far as we know) through medicine. 

It seems different methods result in the "resurrectees" behaving, well, differently. Beric and Cat were still very much self-aware and able to walk, talk, think and act on those thoughts, while Drogo and Clegane were more catatonic and in a trance-like state; they were "alive" in the literal sense of the word, but devoid of anything seemingly human. Drogo just lay there (we know he didn't do that with Dany, ayooooooo! ;)), and the people around "Robert Strong" comment about his never speaking, eating, drinking or using the privy.  

Out of these examples, the resurrections of Drogo and Clegane aren't all that different with how it left them. Drogo was not all that far off from ending up like Sandor, and that in the "right" hands, it's possible he could be turned into a obsequious killing machine, and that somehow, either through the methods of resurrection or because of the intent of the person behind the resurrection, any person being brought back can end up like this.

Compare this with what we know about wights: Jon and Mormont believe Othor knew and remembered Jeor and was targeting him specifically, which leads us to believe they have some form of self-awareness and remembrance of things pre-resurrection. However, they are clearly in a trance-like state, more than likely put in place by The Others with their magic.

It seems as if Qybrun, and almost Mirri for that matter (whether she was intending this or not or if it could've ever happened we won't know), found some type of balance. This leads to the question: Has Qyburn found some type of connection between medicine and magic, where the two overlap in some fashion and can be used in the same or similar regard? Also, as stated earlier, is how they come back dependent on the method, or the intent of the person resurrecting? A combination of both? I wonder if the magic in ASOIAF is not necessarily various types, but rather it exists independently on it's own, and the yielders of magic have turned it into what we see in the series, i.e., ice, fire, water, etc., magic.

Thoughts? One of the most intriguing things to me in this series is the necromancy, the different ways it's been used, and I hope we get to learn more about in the coming books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Had Drogo and the mountain died?  Think that is the biggest difference between them Cat, Beric and probably Sandor.

Wights seem to be closer to skin changing

True, I suppose they never really did die. I was thinking a little too deep into the subject and overlooked that. Ooops! Although we don't know what happened to Sandor quite yet.

Still, those two were damn near dead, and we don't know at this point if Gregor actually died or not before his transformation into Robert Strong. That might've been exactly what Qyburn needed to do his thing. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that what Mirri did, preserve Drogo's life, wasn't far off from the necromancy we see being performed, and she could've done the same or similar spell to bring him back had he died.

So, my questions and my points still stand, albeit the content of what they're based on has changed a bit, and may even detract a bit from it.

Personally, I'm still not fully convinced that wights are being skin changed, but we still don't know much of anything about how The Others do what they do. I wonder if it's somewhere between skin changing and necromancy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Grover Bluejoy said:

Thoughts? One of the most intriguing things to me in this series is the necromancy, the different ways it's been used, and I hope we get to learn more about in the coming books.

I think both Qyburn and Mirri are students of Marwyn the Mage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What MMD did to Drogo was send his conscious (his 'living fire' in the term the text gives it) into the ether, the same as Varamyr was able to do to himself before he died. So Drogo's consciousness is gone (into Drogon) but his body lives on without it. Drogon's state is probably that of any skin changer when they're skin changing something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both died from blood poisoning.  Gregor from Oberyn's poison.  Drogo from infection.  It is not yet clear if Drogo just got infected on his own or Mirri helped it along with her treatment.  Oberyn, though no one says it, is as close to a sorcerer as you can get.  How much different was he actually from Mirri?  Gregor has kept many of his functions.  His physical skills are still there and he was never smart to start with.  Drogo lost his brain functions altogether.  Similar case but I don't think identical.  Drogo would still need constant care.  Feeding.  He had no feelings left.  Gregor has more functions than Drogo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Makk said:

Do people think Sandor died? I got the impression the priest found him and simply nursed him back to health. What would be the motivation of the priests in this situation?

Sandor didn't actually die, but he was dying from sepsis. Just a bit of nursing wouldn't have been enough. It would be hard for modern medicine to pull someone through this late a stage of sepsis. Elder Brother's healing is nothing but miraculous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

What MMD did to Drogo was send his conscious (his 'living fire' in the term the text gives it) into the ether, the same as Varamyr was able to do to himself before he died. So Drogo's consciousness is gone (into Drogon) but his body lives on without it.

And perhaps with Rhaego's soul in his body: that could explain why Rhaego is dead and also why Drogo actslike a new born baby

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

And perhaps with Rhaego's soul in his body: that could explain why Rhaego is dead and also why Drogo actslike a new born baby

Nah Rhaego is in the dragon too, that's 2 of the 3 heads, waiting for mother to join the starry khalaser to ride the nightlands together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Makk said:

Do people think Sandor died? I got the impression the priest found him and simply nursed him back to health. What would be the motivation of the priests in this situation?

The Lord of light has not finished with Sandor, I would say it's highly likely that he was brought back and will have the same flaming sword ability as Beric had, which will be very ironic if he ever faces off against ungregor.

20 hours ago, Grover Bluejoy said:

True, I suppose they never really did die. I was thinking a little too deep into the subject and overlooked that. Ooops! Although we don't know what happened to Sandor quite yet.

Still, those two were damn near dead, and we don't know at this point if Gregor actually died or not before his transformation into Robert Strong. That might've been exactly what Qyburn needed to do his thing. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that what Mirri did, preserve Drogo's life, wasn't far off from the necromancy we see being performed, and she could've done the same or similar spell to bring him back had he died.

No question they were terminal and have been preserved beyond the point of death

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Invalid Date at 7:26 PM, hiemal said:

I think both Qyburn and Mirri are students of Marwyn the Mage.

I forgot to bring Marwyn into the discussion when I posted this originally. I hope we will learn more about him in TWOW. Maybe he is the one who has found the connection between medicine and magic bringing back a life force?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Invalid Date at 7:34 PM, chrisdaw said:

What MMD did to Drogo was send his conscious (his 'living fire' in the term the text gives it) into the ether, the same as Varamyr was able to do to himself before he died. So Drogo's consciousness is gone (into Drogon) but his body lives on without it. Drogon's state is probably that of any skin changer when they're skin changing something.

Interesting. A maegi "forcing" skin changing into someone who is not, as far we know, a skin changer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Grover Bluejoy said:

Interesting. A maegi "forcing" skin changing into someone who is not, as far we know, a skin changer.

If MMD had much of a clue about what she was doing then she probably thought she was sending his soul into oblivion. Varamyr touches on it in his chapter and when he thinks,

Quote

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

He either finds his wolves in the last instance or ends up there when he dies by simply having an existing bond. Thus being saved from this form which he first exults in but then needs saving from.

The same thing is occurring to Dany on the verge of death in her Wake the Dragon dream.

Quote

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

She's being ushered through the red door which is the dragon (symbolically the passage of her death and second life inside the dragon), if she doesn't make it she falls into oblivion. But of course she instead wakes up and is returned.

MMD most likely thought she was sending Drogo to oblivion, instead he managed his way inside Drogon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Khal Drogo was assassinated.  Gregor Clegane was taken to the intensive care unit and his life was saved.  Though what kind of life is left remains to be seen.  

One other possible cause is something MMD gave him.  A sedative?  His coma has more similarity to Varys and the time he lost his parts.

" The man gave Varys a potion that made him powerless to move or speak, but did nothing to dull his senses as his manhood was cut off at the stem, then burnt in a brazier in a blood magic ritual. "

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 13/06/2017 at 2:34 AM, chrisdaw said:

What MMD did to Drogo was send his conscious (his 'living fire' in the term the text gives it) into the ether, the same as Varamyr was able to do to himself before he died. So Drogo's consciousness is gone (into Drogon) but his body lives on without it. Drogon's state is probably that of any skin changer when they're skin changing something.

I don't see evidence of that. And I don't think we will find some later (unless GRRM confirms the hypothesis). But I like the idea. And will try to look in this direction. Drogo greater ferocity and easy bonding with Daenerys is a start. IMO, magic assistance should compensate for the lack of natural skin changing ability.

The OP question is a crucial one, I believe. But I don't know what to conclude. I believe different persons have been returned by different means, by different powers, from different decay state. We are not even sure Gregor has a head (or his head). Some giant skull has been given to the Martells. Not a proof, could be something dug from the RK archives. But whatever. The wights are under control of something. We have Coldhands. Seems a wight without control.

I believe we have R'hollor, Blood magic and necromancy (=cheating death) on one side. Something cold, death-god like on the other. Powers somewhat representing the Fire and Ice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Rhaegar Frey said:

Its been a while since I read the books, but didnt Mirri and Quburn both learn their methods from Marwyn at the Citadel?

Mirri said she learnt from Marwyn when she was at Asshai: "a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin" ...  "Marwyn, he named himself". Doesn't seem to have been anything "magical". Her magic was from someone else: "I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands".

For Qyburn, I don't remember.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't see evidence of that.

What evidence would you expect to see until he's ready to let it out? What might GRRM do? Maybe give the dragon almost the same name. Colour them the same. Make it the alpha dragon. Have the dragon keep returning to the dothraki sea. Throw afterlife stories in there for Drogo about rising on a fiery steed to the night sky. That is without expanding it beyond Drogo into the rest of the text where a mad Targ gets the idea from somewhere that they will die and rise as a dragon, that the dragon riders of Valyria said they were kin to the dragons they rode and the star Targaryen dreams of literally transforming into a dragon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

What evidence would you expect to see until he's ready to let it out? What might GRRM do? Maybe give the dragon almost the same name. Colour them the same. Make it the alpha dragon. Have the dragon keep returning to the dothraki sea. Throw afterlife stories in there for Drogo about rising on a fiery steed to the night sky. That is without expanding it beyond Drogo into the rest of the text where a mad Targ gets the idea from somewhere that they will die and rise as a dragon, that the dragon riders of Valyria said they were kin to the dragons they rode and the star Targaryen dreams of literally transforming into a dragon.

That is very pleasing arguments. You convinced me still more. But I don't see how you could quiet those who don't want to see it. Or those who will want a proof by "1+1=2". I feel GRRM will leave things to argue indefinitely after the end of the story. It could be one of these.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...