What Mirri did to Khal Drogo, and what Qyburn did to The Mountain.

[StarkofWinterfell]

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

What evidence would you expect to see until he's ready to let it out? What might GRRM do? Maybe give the dragon almost the same name. Colour them the same. Make it the alpha dragon. Have the dragon keep returning to the dothraki sea. Throw afterlife stories in there for Drogo about rising on a fiery steed to the night sky. That is without expanding it beyond Drogo into the rest of the text where a mad Targ gets the idea from somewhere that they will die and rise as a dragon, that the dragon riders of Valyria said they were kin to the dragons they rode and the star Targaryen dreams of literally transforming into a dragon.

I think you're on to something here. The Valyrians practiced blood magic to bind someone's soul to a dragon.

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

That is very pleasing arguments. You convinced me still more. But I don't see how you could quiet those who don't want to see it. Or those who will want a proof by "1+1=2". I feel GRRM will leave things to argue indefinitely after the end of the story. It could be one of these.

We will have no definite proof until GRRM is ready to let the cat out of the bag, but it's not going to be like an Easter Egg left off to the side without an answer. It's the central mystery of the series, it's what Euron's horn will ultimately do (dragonbinder, no mortal man sounds me and lives, blood for fire, fire for blood), it's what the dragon has three heads refers to and it is Dany's fate, her true home the other side of the red door.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:34 PM, chrisdaw said:

What MMD did to Drogo was send his conscious (his 'living fire' in the term the text gives it) into the ether, the same as Varamyr was able to do to himself before he died. So Drogo's consciousness is gone (into Drogon) but his body lives on without it. Drogon's state is probably that of any skin changer when they're skin changing something.

I have argued for a long time that what the WW's are doing is akin do skinchanging soulless people, but I do think there are two parts to it.  The actual physical resurrection, which is what MMD did to Drago and what the WW's do to people, and then separately the WW's take them over, which MMD did not do.

[BalerionTheCat]

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

We will have no definite proof until GRRM is ready to let the cat out of the bag, but it's not going to be like an Easter Egg left off to the side without an answer. It's the central mystery of the series, it's what Euron's horn will ultimately do (dragonbinder, no mortal man sounds me and lives, blood for fire, fire for blood), it's what the dragon has three heads refers to and it is Dany's fate, her true home the other side of the red door.

Maybe you are right extrapolating so far. I don't know. But I don't think the man dying sounding the horn joins the dragon. But what I know of that? The old lunacy of the dead Targaryens reborn in dragon must have an origin. And the similarity with the dead skin changers is very adequate IMO. To explain the lunacy, I was thinking of the PtwP prophecy, known by the Targaryens for 1000 years, or of Daenys' deams, and what did Daenerys. But maybe it's something as old as the dragons.

For Drogo=Drogon, I see it more as a hint that Drogon is forever bounded, joined with Daenerys. Drogon will never have another master. And one will not survive the other. Meaning both their death by the end of the story. But just a hunch of that. I would not bet much.

[chrisdaw]

31 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Maybe you are right extrapolating so far. I don't know. But I don't think the man dying sounding the horn joins the dragon.

Well there's no dragon or eggs on hand for him to jump into. But it wouldn't have worked if there were anyway, as it wouldn't have for Drogo if Rhaego (who has both Targ and Drogo's blood) hadn't preceded him.

Like most prophesies it's almost there but not quite. Two to wake the dragon yes, but not the king first.

And somehow Euron knows it, hence why he's chasing Dany and that cryptic line about needing a heir worthy of him. He's planning to recreate what accidentally occurred with Drogo, he's planning to commit suicide (jump from a tower) so that he can fly (second life a dragon). His horn will achieve for him what MMD's magic did for Drogo, hence its inscription, the Valyrians fine tuned their blood magic process down to a nice beautiful horn so that they didn't have to deal with nightlong messy tents of WTF.  

[Grover Bluejoy]

On Invalid Date at 6:34 PM, chrisdaw said:

What evidence would you expect to see until he's ready to let it out? What might GRRM do? Maybe give the dragon almost the same name. Colour them the same. Make it the alpha dragon. Have the dragon keep returning to the dothraki sea. Throw afterlife stories in there for Drogo about rising on a fiery steed to the night sky. That is without expanding it beyond Drogo into the rest of the text where a mad Targ gets the idea from somewhere that they will die and rise as a dragon, that the dragon riders of Valyria said they were kin to the dragons they rode and the star Targaryen dreams of literally transforming into a dragon.

I was pretty skeptical of the idea until reading this; I can dig it.

[Grover Bluejoy]

On Invalid Date at 2:16 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

 

The OP question is a crucial one, I believe. But I don't know what to conclude. I believe different persons have been returned by different means, by different powers, from different decay state. We are not even sure Gregor has a head (or his head). Some giant skull has been given to the Martells. Not a proof, could be something dug from the RK archives. But whatever. The wights are under control of something. We have Coldhands. Seems a wight without control.

I believe we have R'hollor, Blood magic and necromancy (=cheating death) on one side. Something cold, death-god like on the other. Powers somewhat representing the Fire and Ice.

I feel like Drogo, with the right magic/medicine, was no more than a few steps away from being turned into whatever it was Gregor became.

Coldhands, who I honestly forgot about while making this post, is another interesting case. He's more like Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart and Beric, but more than likely was brought back with a different method.

I do like the idea of two polar extremes of magic, with the other elements (water, earth, air) being "shades", so to speak, of those two main types.

It seems that despite the different forms of magic, all of them can be utilized in similar ways, to achieve similar goals. This leads back to my original question of is the magic elemental, or does the magic exist on it's own, with humans attributing the elements to the practice of magic.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 20/06/2017 at 10:05 PM, Grover Bluejoy said:

Coldhands, who I honestly forgot about while making this post, is another interesting case. He's more like Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart and Beric, but more than likely was brought back with a different method.

I would ask your view about the Waif. Is she dead? She didn't age (in appearance) since she was poisoned, 30 years ago. Will she live no longer than anyone, dying of old age, still looking 6? Or is she an undead in a completely different state?

Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die.

[Ser Dood]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 5:34 PM, chrisdaw said:

What MMD did to Drogo was send his conscious (his 'living fire' in the term the text gives it) into the ether, the same as Varamyr was able to do to himself before he died. So Drogo's consciousness is gone (into Drogon) but his body lives on without it. Drogon's state is probably that of any skin changer when they're skin changing something.

I love this, very nice.

[Lost Melnibonean]

You might find these old threads of interest...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/107265-were-khal-drogo-and-and-his-unborn-son-offerings-for-the-great-shepherd/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/115959-the-power-of-beric-and-catelyn-comes-from-the-old-gods-not-the-lord-of-light-and-jaime-will-be-next/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/94042-did-davos-actually-drown-after-the-battle-of-the-blackwater/

Or not.

[Grover Bluejoy]

21 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I would ask your view about the Waif. Is she dead? She didn't age (in appearance) since she was poisoned, 30 years ago. Will she live no longer than anyone, dying of old age, still looking 6? Or is she an undead in a completely different state?

Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die.

I have no idea, honestly. It's been a bit since I read AFfC, and I recently started my re-read of the series and I'm only about 100 pages into ASoS. I'll get back to you in a monthish on that one, lol.

Based on that line you quoted though, I wonder if Gregor was given something similar by Qyburn.

AFfC was my least favorite of the five so far, and thusly I didn't retain nearly as much about that book as I did with the others. Just lurking on these forums has greatly heightened my curiosity concerning AFfC though, so I'm looking forward to get more in-depth with my second read.

[Grover Bluejoy]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You might find these old threads of interest...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/107265-were-khal-drogo-and-and-his-unborn-son-offerings-for-the-great-shepherd/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/115959-the-power-of-beric-and-catelyn-comes-from-the-old-gods-not-the-lord-of-light-and-jaime-will-be-next/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/94042-did-davos-actually-drown-after-the-battle-of-the-blackwater/

Or not.

Nice, thanks! I will definitely be checking these out.

 

[ravenous reader]

On 6/12/2017 at 8:34 PM, chrisdaw said:

What MMD did to Drogo was send his conscious (his 'living fire' in the term the text gives it) into the ether, the same as Varamyr was able to do to himself before he died.

Great idea!  Sometimes readers forget that skinchanging/greenseeing has a downside, namely the dissolution of ones personal identity that comes with the diffusion of power implicit in joining the collective.  I've compared it, following the symbolism of GRRM's language in this respect, to drowning.  Bran correctly senses this threat to his individual identity; that's why he's not all that keen at first to be 'wedded' to the 'weirnet'. Similarly, Jojen cautions him not to lose himself in the wolf:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Jojen, what did you mean about a teacher?" Bran asked. "You're my teacher. I know I never marked the tree, but I will the next time. My third eye is open like you wanted . . ."

"So wide open that I fear you may fall through it, and live all the rest of your days as a wolf of the woods."

 

Quote

So Drogo's consciousness is gone (into Drogon) but his body lives on without it.

When exactly do you envision Drogo's consciousness went into Drogon?  At the time of Mirri's sorcerous ritual, Drogon had not yet been born.  I believe his soul must have found its way into Drogon's egg (or, more accurately, into the dragon embryo within); however, I've discovered the majority of readers believe that this process was only catalyzed in the funeral pyre.  If so, where was Drogo's soul resident in the meantime, if not even locked in his body anymore (in the interim, between the tent ritual and funeral pyre)?

Quote

Drogon's state is probably that of any skin changer when they're skin changing something.

You mean Drogo's catatonic state, not Drogon's?  That's another great catch of yours, substantiated by these passages:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

...Now bring me to Khal Drogo."

He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun.

A dozen bloodflies had settled on his body, though he did not seem to feel them. Dany brushed them away and knelt beside him. His eyes were wide open but did not see, and she knew at once that he was blind. When she whispered his name, he did not seem to hear. The wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

"Why is he out here alone, in the sun?" she asked them.

"He seems to like the warmth, Princess," Ser Jorah said. "His eyes follow the sun, though he does not see it. He can walk after a fashion. He will go where you lead him, but no farther. He will eat if you put food in his mouth, drink if you dribble water on his lips."

Dany kissed her sun-and-stars gently on the brow, and stood to face Mirri Maz Duur. "Your spells are costly, maegi."

"He lives," said Mirri Maz Duur. "You asked for life. You paid for life."

"This is not life, for one who was as Drogo was. His life was laughter, and meat roasting over a firepit, and a horse between his legs. His life was an arakh in his hand and his bells ringing in his hair as he rode to meet an enemy. His life was his bloodriders, and me, and the son I was to give him."

Mirri Maz Duur made no reply.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

 

On 6/13/2017 at 7:42 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

And perhaps with Rhaego's soul in his body: that could explain why Rhaego is dead and also why Drogo actslike a new born baby

Perhaps, instead, Rhaego's soul went into his own dragon egg (future-Rhaegal).  All the dragon eggs would've been in the tent during the ritual, surely?  Dany rarely left them alone.

On 6/13/2017 at 7:57 AM, chrisdaw said:

Nah Rhaego is in the dragon too, that's 2 of the 3 heads, waiting for mother to join the starry khalaser to ride the nightlands together.

Rhaego's soul in which dragon, Drogon or Rhaegal?

On 6/13/2017 at 0:27 PM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

The Lord of light has not finished with Sandor, I would say it's highly likely that he was brought back and will have the same flaming sword ability as Beric had, which will be very ironic if he ever faces off against ungregor.

I like that irony of Sandor potentially fighting his brother with the same weapon he used to fear, thanks to Gregor traumatically burning him as a child.

On 6/14/2017 at 3:01 PM, Grover Bluejoy said:

Interesting. A maegi "forcing" skin changing into someone who is not, as far we know, a skin changer.

We've seen an example, however, of how this might work in principle in the case of Varamyr's description of one skinchanger fighting another over possession of his 'second life' (i.e. the wolf host), resulting in one skinchanger claiming the body, evicting the other -- literally 'forcing him out of his skin' -- and causing his 'true death.'  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Not all skinchangers felt the same, however. Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella …

None of them had been as strong as Varamyr Sixskins, though, not even Haggon, tall and grim with his hands as hard as stone. The hunter died weeping after Varamyr took Greyskin from him, driving him out to claim the beast for his own. No second life for you, old man. Varamyr Threeskins, he'd called himself back then. Greyskin made four, though the old wolf was frail and almost toothless and soon followed Haggon into death.

Varamyr could take any beast he wanted, bend them to his will, make their flesh his own. Dog or wolf, bear or badger …

 

On 6/15/2017 at 3:16 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't see evidence of that. And I don't think we will find some later (unless GRRM confirms the hypothesis). But I like the idea. And will try to look in this direction. Drogo greater ferocity and easy bonding with Daenerys is a start. IMO, magic assistance should compensate for the lack of natural skin changing ability.

@Frey family reunion has also suggested that the fact that a horse was slaughtered during the ritual may have somehow bonded the horse's soul with Drogo's and/or Drogon's, thereby conferring on that particular dragon greater malleability.  In line with the idea that the host takes on the characteristics of the souls inhabiting it (see quote above -- the 'bloody blue' one...), the already 'broken-in' horse inhabiting the dragon would potentially make the dragon easier to ride -- which indeed proves to be the case with Daenerys.  Additionally, there is a sexual connotation in play, quite apart from the horse's soul, since Daenerys has already achieved mastery over Drogo by 'mounting' him in life, making 'mounting' him in his second life that much easier!

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Khal Drogo followed her out into the moonlight, the bells in his hair tinkling softly. A few yards from her tent was a bed of soft grass, and it was there that Dany drew him down. When he tried to turn her over, she put a hand on his chest. "No," she said. "This night I would look on your face."

There is no privacy in the heart of the khalasar. Dany felt the eyes on her as she undressed him, heard the soft voices as she did the things that Doreah had told her to do. It was nothing to her. Was she not khaleesi? His were the only eyes that mattered, and when she mounted him she saw something there that she had never seen before. She rode him as fiercely as ever she had ridden her silver, and when the moment of his pleasure came, Khal Drogo called out her name.

They were on the far side of the Dothraki sea when Jhiqui brushed the soft swell of Dany's stomach with her fingers and said, "Khaleesi, you are with child."

 

On 6/15/2017 at 7:34 PM, chrisdaw said:

What evidence would you expect to see until he's ready to let it out?

Never a truer word was spoken!  GRRM keeps his cards close to his chest -- and the game, I'm afraid, is rigged in his favour...

Quote

What might GRRM do? Maybe give the dragon almost the same name. Colour them the same. Make it the alpha dragon. Have the dragon keep returning to the dothraki sea. Throw afterlife stories in there for Drogo about rising on a fiery steed to the night sky. That is without expanding it beyond Drogo into the rest of the text where a mad Targ gets the idea from somewhere that they will die and rise as a dragon, that the dragon riders of Valyria said they were kin to the dragons they rode and the star Targaryen dreams of literally transforming into a dragon.

That symbolism is compelling.  Nevertheless, suggestive as it may be, symbolism alone however doesn't make it real!  How come for example Daenerys never hears Drogo whispering to her after his death, the way she hears Viserys's voice coming back to haunt her?  (This is analogous to how Bran senses a girl's presence in the raven he skinchanges; or Arya is affected by the traumatic experiences of the person whose face she wears).

On 6/17/2017 at 7:56 AM, chrisdaw said:

Well there's no dragon or eggs on hand for him to jump into. But it wouldn't have worked if there were anyway, as it wouldn't have for Drogo if Rhaego (who has both Targ and Drogo's blood) hadn't preceded him.

Can you explain what you mean by this idea of the necessity of Rhaego 'preceding' him?  Are you implying Drogo hitched a ride with Rhaego into the dragon's egg/s, due to Rhaego's Targaryen blood?

Quote

Like most prophesies it's almost there but not quite. Two to wake the dragon yes, but not the king first.

Care to elaborate?  I'm not following you.

Quote

And somehow Euron knows it, hence why he's chasing Dany and that cryptic line about needing a heir worthy of him. He's planning to recreate what accidentally occurred with Drogo, he's planning to commit suicide (jump from a tower) so that he can fly (second life a dragon). His horn will achieve for him what MMD's magic did for Drogo, hence its inscription, the Valyrians fine tuned their blood magic process down to a nice beautiful horn so that they didn't have to deal with nightlong messy tents of WTF.  

I like the idea of the horn sounding being the equivalent of Mirri ululating, chanting, singing etc.  The 'spellbinding' sound is the key weapon, the key which unlocks the magic, as I've been trying to articulate via my 'killing word' theory.

Are you implying Dany's sacrifice by Euron is somehow necessary in order to 'steal' her mount?  The Last Hero is someone who wields a 'dragonsteel blade' -- perhaps the Last Hero 'steals a dragon'?  Not that I believe Euron is the Last Hero type...

[chrisdaw]

Yes I meant Drogo was in a state of a skin changer on that line and not Drogon.

Working the process down to an exact science I think is a bit of a goose chase. Maybe GRRM will reveal it but I don't think he has to and probably won't. It would make sense on one hand Drogo went into the egg when MMD put his soul out there. But on the other hand remember TARGS ALWAYS BURN THEIR DEAD. So it would make sense Drogo's pyre was required to get the soul in there too.

Something to think about though, what happens to the actual Dragon's soul it was born with, assuming it does/did have it's own. Still in there with Drogo and Rhaego? Or maybe pushed out? Into Rhaego's body? Rhaego's body that was still in Dany's womb, sharing with her the same blood. Might that be where Dany got her one time fire immunity?

Rhaego is in Drogon too, and to explain why I'll go against my own advice and into into the science of it.

First off we know two "consciouses" can be inside the one thing, that's established numerous times. And a dragon is pretty big, can probably fit in more than the one.

Targaryens can second life a Targ dragon, historic sacrifices were made and a blood relationship exists between a line of dragons and Targs. Due to this blood relationship the dragons of those lines are likely to be less hostile to Targaryens to the point where they may allow them to be ridden.

Non-Targs do not possess this relationships, and so can not second life a dragon (or ride). However, there is a back door. Drogo had a child with Targaryen blood and his own. Child died, child can go into the dragon because it has Targ blood, dragon now has Targ blood AND DROGO BLOOD. Drogo dies, now Drogo can get into the dragon as the dragon has his blood through his child.

Essentially yes, Rhaego paved the way.

And what was done can be repeated, hence Euron and his dreams of flying and his absolute requirement for Dany and heir of her dragon blood. The only woman in the world left with that blood (his words, he'll fail with Dany but succeed with next best source Arianne).

Two kings to wake the dragon, father first then child. You do need two, and a child and parent relationship, but the order of death probably not so important or the other way around. King's blood for Targ's blood. Probably the comet is a requirement too at sacrifice time but Rhaegar has gotten from the prophesy that it's about conception, probably the sacrifice has to be young or even still in Targ womb.

Back on why Rhaego is in the dragon, that's going to be your three heads of the dragon, Drogo, Rhaego and when Dany dies she'll join and you'll have a three headed dragon which will end the long night. Dany dies but gets her happy ending reuniting with Drogo and Rhaego. And the world gets its saviour. And that's how Drogo returns to her as he is set to do by MMD's quote. The symbolism goes that the more brightly the person lived in life the brighter they will burn in death. So Dany being Dany, breaker of chains queen and everything else, when she becomes the dragon we're going to get a Balerion type mega dragon that does all those things in her dreams. Fire burning mega hot. There's some telling foreshadowing where she's riding inside her Balerion named ship, as to waking and what not, but that's off topic.

I'll throw this one in here too, back to Drogo, the dragon story in Dany's AGOT chapters leading up to Drogo's death and the hatchings.

Quote

Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. "The moon?"

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return." 

The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. "You are foolish strawhead slave," Irri said. "Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known."

Dragons got their fire from drinking from the Sun. Drogo is Dany's Sun and Stars. Drogo is generally a fiery character, he burned bright in life.

So Drogo undergoes the MMD tent stuff, he loses his soul and Drogon ends up with it. Drogon the dragon has drank fire (soul, living fire, life-force?, however you want to term it) from the sun (Drogo).

When Drogo wakes up,

Quote

He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun.

...

"Why is he out here alone, in the sun?" she asked them.

"He seems to like the warmth, Princess," Ser Jorah said. "His eyes follow the sun, though he does not see it. He can walk after a fashion. He will go where you lead him, but no farther. He will eat if you put food in his mouth, drink if you dribble water on his lips."

Seems about right for what is left of someone who just got their fiery soul drank.

Since I got this far I'll go a little further and point out there is an actual reason GRRM is doing this. He's establishing something. The dragon takes on the properties of its second lifer. Size probably, characteristics, colouring will be influenced too, BUT, most importantly, and I say this because it's what the text harps upon, the dragon's fire is representative of its second lifer.

Like the stuff above, most of the relating symbolism, the hints GRRM has put out there, relate to the dragon's fire. As this one does,

Quote

When a horselord dies, his horse is slain with him, so he might ride proud into the night lands. The bodies are burned beneath the open sky, and the khal rises on his fiery steed to take his place among the stars. The more fiercely the man burned in life, the brighter his star will shine in the darkness.

A star being basically a fiery mass.

GRRM basically asks the question directly here,

Quote

. . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed." 

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire.

Why he's establishing this is because as I said, Euron (with Arianne) is going to succeed, and when he does the dragon is going to take on his properties. GRRM's Cthulhu, part dragon part kraken and part man. And stone, because Euron/Arianne are going to have greyscale (JC -> Daemon -> Arianne). But most importantly, no more fire. Sea water no good for fire, stone doesn't burn. No weapon against the Others.

And from there all the symbolism, prophecies and legends gain their meaning. Sea water poison to the Dothraki, Garin the Great's curse against the Valyrian's come home to roost, The stone dragon that breathes shadow fire, the grey king who made a thrall of Nagga's fire and made from it's body his hall, the Blood Emperor and his blood betrayal against the Amethyst Empress, a treason for blood, Harrenhal, the great cursed stone monstrosity that could not burn, mortared with blood.

And in Dany's arc the really big stuff. Because having lost her dragon she's going to want to fix it, she's going to need to wake the dragon from stone. And she's going to have an idea about how to do it. She had Rhaego to Drogo, both died and she got Drogon. Euron tried to get her preggers and when it didn't work out had a child on Arianne, and when he, she and the baby were sacrificed, she got a stone kraken monster. What Dany will need to wake the dragon from stone is to repeat the process, and not with just any father, she goods Targaryen stock to fix the stone kraken dragon mess and return Drogon to a nice fire breathing dragon. King's blood.

After you birth a living child he will be as he was, the AA/Nissa Nissa story, two failures labouring in the temple, water and lion, two miscarriages in Dany's fiery womb, likely premium Valyrian/Targ blood fathers, Aurane Waters and Tyrion (Viserion's rider), and that last successful one, no hints given in that name for good reason. Blue flower chink in the wall - bride of fire, Bael the Bard come to pluck the blue rose of Winterfell. AA reborn to wake dragons from stone. Harrenhal's stone did not burn, but it did melt under Balerion's fire in a great Targaryen triumph over the Ironborn king.

[Damon_Tor]

On 6/12/2017 at 0:24 PM, Grover Bluejoy said:

Thoughts? One of the most intriguing things to me in this series is the necromancy, the different ways it's been used, and I hope we get to learn more about in the coming books.

Its very important, I think, that Qyburn sought out female puppeteers for his reanimation of Gregor. Female because you use sex to establish a psychic link and puppeteers because that's exactly what they would be doing.