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Barbrey's Busted Barrow and Brandon's Bloody Blade


hiemal

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"Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. "... ADwD

"Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord's daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk."... AFfC

Even less so a daughter of the Rills, unless Barbrey was just that skilled a rider or perhaps only appreciated horseflesh from afoot. Or is she misremembering or dissembling for Reek's benefit? Regardless, I wonder if belated maidensblood wasn't implicit in her parting gift to her new husband to make up for giving herself to the Wolf to mount and ride:

"I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father's herds."... ADwD

I wonder if this like Blood and Fire, the Death of Dragons? The whole thing seems like a Horse Sacrifice gone horribly wrong. Did Ramsay's horse Blood also come from the Rills? Lady Dustin gave the Frey boys grey steeds presumably from the dead-Stark warm fuzzies she gets thinking about the Red Wedding. If we take her performance with Reek at face value, anyways. Such secrets and plots as she has nurtured in her womb/barrow remain her own. I wonder if the mastery of undeath is something native to the Others or if it may have been taken from someone else? But then House Dustin is a House of a different color...

Just a few thoughts I had nowhere else to pin.

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Barbrey was born a Ryswell, whose sigil is a red horse, so it could be symbolic of her family. Even though she doesn't talk about her late husband much, what she does say implies some genuine affection between the two, so I think she just gave it to him as a parting gift. Something to remember her by, so to speak.

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On 13/06/2017 at 1:22 AM, hiemal said:

... Regardless, I wonder if belated maidensblood wasn't implicit in her parting gift to her new husband to make up for giving herself to the Wolf to mount and ride:

"I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father's herds."... ADwD

Oh I see it. She really might have done. Her maiden's gift.

Quote

I wonder if this like Blood and Fire, the Death of Dragons? The whole thing seems like a Horse Sacrifice gone horribly wrong. Did Ramsay's horse Blood also come from the Rills? Lady Dustin gave the Frey boys grey steeds presumably from the dead-Stark warm fuzzies she gets thinking about the Red Wedding. If we take her performance with Reek at face value, anyways. Such secrets and plots as she has nurtured in her womb/barrow remain her own. I wonder if the mastery of undeath is something native to the Others or if it may have been taken from someone else? But then House Dustin is a House of a different color...

Just a few thoughts I had nowhere else to pin.

I've got rule of thumb for horses which is simply that any described horse is a reflection of it's rider - most specifically the rider's spirit or lifeforce. The Frey boys grey colts are a good example (the boys are grey characters, and young), and so is Ramsay's Blood (Ramsay is ... Ramsay). All totally meta, of course - no basis in-world.

There's a couple of exceptions to the rule, and the red stallion is one of them. OK, it's possible Lord Dustin had a strong and fiery spirit, eager to deal out fire and/or blood to his enemies. The problem is that Lord Dustin is dead, and against all precedent, his spirit apparently refused to die with him, and walked home without a body. This broke my rule of thumb into a thousand tiny pieces.

I toyed around with the idea of ghosts - I'm sure there will be ghosts - but if Lord Dustin has been the unquiet dead for all these years, he's been remarkably low-key about it. No-one's noticed him.

Then I hit on the obvious solution: it was Lady Dustin's spirit that carried him south. The thought of Lady Dustin got him fired up and drove him to fight for her beloved Starks. (What a great husband - no wonder she was furious to lose him.)

This is not just a pretty theory; it has two nice consequences:

  • Lady Dustin is awesome. It's her that is the red stallion of the Ryswells and the pride of her father.
  • The red horse survived the death of Lord Dustin, and came home essentially unchanged. Lady Dustin is unchanged also - still a diehard Stark supporter.
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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Oh I see it. She really might have done. Her maiden's gift.

I've got rule of thumb for horses which is simply that any described horse is a reflection of it's rider - most specifically the rider's spirit or lifeforce. The Frey boys grey colts are a good example (the boys are grey characters, and young), and so is Ramsay's Blood (Ramsay is ... Ramsay). All totally meta, of course - no basis in-world.

There's a couple of exceptions to the rule, and the red stallion is one of them. OK, it's possible Lord Dustin had a strong and fiery spirit, eager to deal out fire and/or blood to his enemies. The problem is that Lord Dustin is dead, and against all precedent, his spirit apparently refused to die with him, and walked home without a body. This broke my rule of thumb into a thousand tiny pieces.

I toyed around with the idea of ghosts - I'm sure there will be ghosts - but if Lord Dustin has been the unquiet dead for all these years, he's been remarkably low-key about it. No-one's noticed him.

Then I hit on the obvious solution: it was Lady Dustin's spirit that carried him south. The thought of Lady Dustin got him fired up and drove him to fight for her beloved Starks. (What a great husband - no wonder she was furious to lose him.)

This is not just a pretty theory; it has two nice consequences:

  • Lady Dustin is awesome. It's her that is the red stallion of the Ryswells and the pride of her father.
  • The red horse survived the death of Lord Dustin, and came home essentially unchanged. Lady Dustin is unchanged also - still a diehard Stark supporter.

I toss Smiler into this mix, during the fall of Winterfall when his mane is burning and his eyes reflect the raging flames and incidentally the Ryswell sigil. Not sure where Lord Botley bought him from, but the Rills are closer than Stonehedge.

Dany's Silver seems good. The Hound's Stranger likewise. Arya's Craven and Jaime's Honor. Good stuff.

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Re: Horse sacrifice

I think this deserves elaboration but for the life of me I can't remember the exact name. I came across it in one of Joseph Campbell's books (Oriental Mythology?) and it breaks down to the king releasing a horse and then following it bringing war with him (i.e. if the horse wanders into someone else's territory it is taken as a sign to invade) . At some point he sacrifices the horse and the queen copulates with the dead horse in some kind of fertility rite. Lady Dustin's horse comes home but not her husband, a man associated with death with whom she presumably copulated. Seems like there could be something there.

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15 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Barbrey was born a Ryswell, whose sigil is a red horse, so it could be symbolic of her family. Even though she doesn't talk about her late husband much, what she does say implies some genuine affection between the two, so I think she just gave it to him as a parting gift. Something to remember her by, so to speak.

Maybe, but a red horse is not the sigil for House Ryswell, it is a black horse with red mane. House Bracken's on the other hand is a red stallion. I think that the horse was more representative of Lady Dustin and House Ryswell. I also think that is a similar parallel as Dawn in the sense that Ned had the respect to deliver each of the items back to their respective owners due to their rarity and family significance.

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20 hours ago, hiemal said:

Even less so a daughter of the Rills, unless Barbrey was just that skilled a rider or perhaps only appreciated horseflesh from afoot. Or is she misremembering or dissembling for Reek's benefit? Regardless, I wonder if belated maidensblood wasn't implicit in her parting gift to her new husband to make up for giving herself to the Wolf to mount and ride:

"I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father's herds."... ADwD

It seems quite straigh forward, a girl often gives her Maidenhead to a horse but not always, I also get the impression that she was fairly young when Brandon took what he wanted after all as soon as they start bleeding women are fully grown in this world, so the younger the woman; the lower the chances of the horse taking the prize.

As for the 2nd sentance I take it as a simple statment of fact

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18 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I've got rule of thumb for horses which is simply that any described horse is a reflection of it's rider - most specifically the rider's spirit or lifeforce. The Frey boys grey colts are a good example (the boys are grey characters, and young), and so is Ramsay's Blood (Ramsay is ... Ramsay). All totally meta, of course - no basis in-world.

There's a couple of exceptions to the rule, and the red stallion is one of them. ...

Then I hit on the obvious solution: it was Lady Dustin's spirit that carried him south. The thought of Lady Dustin got him fired up and drove him to fight for her beloved Starks. (What a great husband - no wonder she was furious to lose him.)

This is excellent. Nice catch. I had been thinking that horses represent power or, possibly, life. But your idea covers all the bases.

I still wonder what it means that Bran rides into the harvest feast on the back of Dancer, using the special saddle designed by Tyrion. He realizes during the feast that he will never dance and leaves in the basket on Hodor's back. I guess it means that Hodor is his new horse. The only other person who rides into a room like that is Tywin riding into the throne room at the Red Keep after the Blackwater, right? I'll have to go back and see if the author tells us how Tywin leaves the room.

But I particularly love the idea of Lady Dustin's spirit embodied by the horse she gave her husband. Maybe she is a symbolic horse goddess or horse skinchanger, and we can look for evidence of her presence wherever horses appear. I've tried to put together pieces of a formula (probably not the right word - pattern? set of details?) that seems to recur when a POV character makes an escape - Arya leaving Harrenhal; Jon sneaking out from the ring fort at the Fist to follow Ghost to the obsidian cache; Tyrion escaping Yezzan. The author often includes a line about horses being unsettled or nervously making noise.

My instinct is also that Lady Dustin is a Stark supporter, but we are often told that horses are scared of direwolves; they don't like to be around them. I don't know if that undermines this reading of her loyalties.

14 hours ago, hiemal said:

I toss Smiler into this mix, during the fall of Winterfall when his mane is burning and his eyes reflect the raging flames and incidentally the Ryswell sigil. Not sure where Lord Botley bought him from, but the Rills are closer than Stonehedge.

Dany's Silver seems good. The Hound's Stranger likewise. Arya's Craven and Jaime's Honor. Good stuff.

This would also fit with the horse beheaded by Gregor Clegane after he loses the jousting match to Ser Loras. Eventually, Gregor loses his own head. . . .

I've been reading the ACoK chapters with Qhorin, Jon and their ranging party trying to escape the eagle and the pursuing wildlings. The deaths of the horses seem to reflect the deaths of each man in the ranging party. The men eat horsemeat (a parallel to Dany eating the stallion's heart) after one of the horses breaks a leg. Jon's horse is the last survivor, along with Jon himself.

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

The only other person who rides into a room like that is Tywin riding into the throne room at the Red Keep after the Blackwater, right?

Lord Eddard Stark, during the Sack of KL, when he discovers Jaime on the IT?

 

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2 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Lord Eddard Stark, during the Sack of KL, when he discovers Jaime on the IT?

 

Ah, very interesting. I wonder whether the horse is a sort of alternate throne, used by a "rightful king" in the presence of a usurper? That adds a whole new complication. Ned rides while Jaime sits on the throne (Jaime later fights him and Ned's horse falls on him, breaking his leg); Tywin rides up to Joffrey seated on the throne; Bran rides into the feast in place of Robb who is off waging war.

Or the indoors-horse could be the seat of the King of the Underworld. There are a lot of details around Tywin that make me think he is undead, and Ned and Bran would be Kings of Winter. In the Celtic legends, though, I think it's a woman on a grey horse who leads souls to the Underworld. I can't think why the indoor horse would be ridden by a king figure.

It does possibly make sense, though, if we see Barbrey Dustin as a kingmaker with her ability to grant horses to people. Especially with her connection to barrows (Barrowtown), the seats of underworld kings, the horse might be the perfect symbol. (Rohanne Webber similarly tries to give away horses in the Sworn Sword - Dunk declines but Egg accepts her gift, if I recall correctly.) Or maybe we have to call Lady Dustin a powerbroker, not a kingmaker, since recipients of her horse gifts don't become literal kings. I wonder whether the horse that Ned returned to Barbrey after the Tower of Joy carried a particular person back to the North before Ned returned it?

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What an amazing mind you have!

What a privilege it is to be here.

 

When I think of indoor horses, my mind goes automatically to Caligula's Incitatus, and how history is written by the victors.

I've yet to consider with much detail the horses in ASoIaF- I once read something on the symbolism of red horses.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing where you go with this idea of the indoor horse!

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Very good all this. Obviously there must be some in-world tradition that the new ruler shows his dominance by riding inside - I'd thought maybe it was arranged for Bran as a kindness, to make him look good, but three examples is no coincidence - not forgetting Caligula's Incitatus either! Mentally, as well, all three were in a very 'alpha' mindset - even Bran starts enjoying being The Stark in Winterfell (rewarding his friends with the best food, generally asserting himself).

This quote on Drogo seems relevant:

Quote

Trembling, her eyes full of sudden tears, Dany turned away from them. He fell from his horse! It was so, she had seen it, and the bloodriders, and no doubt her handmaids and the men of her khas as well. And how many more? They could not make it a secret, and Dany knew what that meant. A khal who could not ride could not rule, and Drogo had fallen from his horse.

Ned fell from his horse, and that was the beginning of the end for him. The horse itself fled from the scent of blood - and it's a fact Ned could not be brought to a fight after this.

So I think Barbrey's gift of horses is more than simple generosity - if she's not making kings, she's certainly making fighters. I wonder if she had long talks with those Frey boys, aiming to turn those grey colts into fierce, fighting stallions.

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19 hours ago, hiemal said:

I toss Smiler into this mix, during the fall of Winterfall when his mane is burning and his eyes reflect the raging flames and incidentally the Ryswell sigil. Not sure where Lord Botley bought him from, but the Rills are closer than Stonehedge.

Dany's Silver seems good. The Hound's Stranger likewise. Arya's Craven and Jaime's Honor. Good stuff.

 

4 hours ago, Seams said:

This would also fit with the horse beheaded by Gregor Clegane after he loses the jousting match to Ser Loras. Eventually, Gregor loses his own head. . . .

I've been reading the ACoK chapters with Qhorin, Jon and their ranging party trying to escape the eagle and the pursuing wildlings. The deaths of the horses seem to reflect the deaths of each man in the ranging party. The men eat horsemeat (a parallel to Dany eating the stallion's heart) after one of the horses breaks a leg. Jon's horse is the last survivor, along with Jon himself.

These are just excellent - Theon: 'He was smiling. Ever smiling' (not to mention the Smiling Knight); Gregor too.

Another one I like is Ser Bonnifer's platoon of pure-hearted knights - every one riding a grey gelding.

Viserys is unwilling to eat horse iirc, and he's a bit of a coward. Eating horse makes you brave? That's good news for Stannis.

 

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Dany receives the wedding gift of her silver from Drogo and she immediately rides it expertly, jumping over a fire.

Joffrey receives a saddle, spurs, supple riding boots and a tourney pavilion as groom's gifts, but no one gives him horse.

Jon asks Tyrion to help his brother, Bran, and Tyrion designs a special saddle that allows Bran to ride. That has to be super significant.

The wildlings and deserter in the wolfswood unstrap Bran to take him off his horse but the direwolves and Theon intervene and Bran lives to ride again.

It all seems to fit this idea of kings and power and sitting on a throne. Now we just have to figure out the non-king or non-powerful characters who also ride horses.

 

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

Dany receives the wedding gift of her silver from Drogo and she immediately rides it expertly, jumping over a fire.

Joffrey receives a saddle, spurs, supple riding boots and a tourney pavilion as groom's gifts, but no one gives him horse.

Jon asks Tyrion to help his brother, Bran, and Tyrion designs a special saddle that allows Bran to ride. That has to be super significant.

The wildlings and deserter in the wolfswood unstrap Bran to take him off his horse but the direwolves and Theon intervene and Bran lives to ride again.

It all seems to fit this idea of kings and power and sitting on a throne. Now we just have to figure out the non-king or non-powerful characters who also ride horses.

 

Several kings throughout WoIaF are described as basically having saddles for thrones, riding from revolt to revolt.

Bittersteel's dragon-winged stallion mating his father and mothers houses. The centaur of House Caswell.

I think the smallfolk usually content themselves with garrons, drays, stots, and swaybacks. Horses may not be as exciting as dragons, but they are much more common and found in a bewildering variety from the sand steeds of Dorne to the improbable zorses of the Jogos Nhai.

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On 6/12/2017 at 5:22 PM, hiemal said:

"Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. "... ADwD

"Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord's daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk."... AFfC

Even less so a daughter of the Rills, unless Barbrey was just that skilled a rider or perhaps only appreciated horseflesh from afoot. Or is she misremembering or dissembling for Reek's benefit? Regardless, I wonder if belated maidensblood wasn't implicit in her parting gift to her new husband to make up for giving herself to the Wolf to mount and ride:

"I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father's herds."... ADwD

I wonder if this like Blood and Fire, the Death of Dragons? The whole thing seems like a Horse Sacrifice gone horribly wrong. Did Ramsay's horse Blood also come from the Rills? Lady Dustin gave the Frey boys grey steeds presumably from the dead-Stark warm fuzzies she gets thinking about the Red Wedding. If we take her performance with Reek at face value, anyways. Such secrets and plots as she has nurtured in her womb/barrow remain her own. I wonder if the mastery of undeath is something native to the Others or if it may have been taken from someone else? But then House Dustin is a House of a different color...

Just a few thoughts I had nowhere else to pin.

Honestly it seems like Barbery should be thought of in conjunction to Ashara Dayne. Ned gave Barbery a Red Horse upon the death of her husband and Ned gave Ashara a white sword upon the death of her brother. And while many suspect Ned having something with a Ashara, I always thought of Brandon being the one that dishonored her. If we think about it that way, Ashara and Barbery are united by a lord of death gifting them something and also having intercourse with a lord of death. And both Lord Dustin and Arthur have other symbolism; Arthur with his kingsguard white and milk white sword and Lord Dustin being a descendant of the Burrow Kings.

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1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Honestly it seems like Barbery should be thought of in conjunction to Ashara Dayne. Ned gave Barbery a Red Horse upon the death of her husband and Ned gave Ashara a white sword upon the death of her brother. And while many suspect Ned having something with a Ashara, I always thought of Brandon being the one that dishonored her. If we think about it that way, Ashara and Barbery are united by a lord of death gifting them something and also having intercourse with a lord of death. And both Lord Dustin and Arthur have other symbolism; Arthur with his kingsguard white and milk white sword and Lord Dustin being a descendant of the Burrow Kings.

Absolutely.

I wonder what the axes in the Dustin sigil signify?

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