Jon was rightfully "terminated" by the Watch

[The Hoare]

8 hours ago, the snow dragon said:

Actualy they did send the hand of a wight to kings landing as a proof. Alliser thorne carried it.no body believed.

Because the hand rotted.

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

YOU USEDBOOK QUOTES?!?!?! My feet got cold so I guess this answers the reason why... hell froze over. 

But nowhere does Jon send Mance to Winterfell. Mance is supposed to be going to Long Lake, per what Mel told Jon before would be the location of fArya. 

You can invent words in the story that Jon never not told them to go to Winterfell, but  that doesn't make it true. 

As it is now in this chapter, and in Jon's next chapter, Mance was supposed to go to Long Lake. 

Usually my conclusions are also based on the text as you must be aware.

Your objection is irrelevant. Jon Snow is living a feudal society where lords and kings actually take responsibility for the deeds of their knights and retainers. Mance was Jon's man so it was Jon who attacked the Boltons at Winterfell, not some rogue element. You have read the stories, too. Does Ser Eustace Osgrey say that Bennis was on his own after he injured one of Lady Webber's peasants? No. Did Eddard Stark declare his lady wife Catelyn a criminal and a traitor after she laid hands on the brother of the queen? No. He even made Catelyn's crime his own as a proper husband and lord should do in this world. Is Tywin Lannister innocent of the murder of Princess Elia because Clegane and Lorch were simply his men and he did not give them the explicit order to kill her (or so he claims)? No. All of the Seven Kingdoms knows that Lord Tywin is responsible for those crimes.

And so is Jon. Deal with it. He accepts this. Why can't you?

And picking up 'Arya' on the road would have still been unlawful. She is Lady Bolton now. Lord Ramsay decides where she spends her days, not Jon Snow. A black brother has no right to come between a husband and his lawful wife. He has no family but his brothers at the Wall. The Alys thing is pushing things, too, although that's different in the sense that Alys is not yet married and Arnolf and Cregan are not her legal guardians. But Jon is still taking sides which he should not. It is none of his business what the Karstarks do in their castle.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Usually my conclusions are also based on the text as you must be aware.

And you must also be aware that Jon doesn't know Mance is going to Winterfell, and that the laws of the realm end at the wall, and as George has said, he bases his realistic pints of he story in actual history/myth/whatever, but he always twists it to be his own. Your conclusions are based on the Targaryens "finally" and "rightfully" end up on a throne (that is probably going to be null and melted down soon) and that the "unwashed" dirtbag wildlings all die to save 10 people. 

You really think that is what our hippy author is saying? Is that really the song of the story? 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

This debate still continuing?

I bring things back to the larger context. Let's assume what Jon did violates some law. Now what?

Stannis violated the law by usurping (in the eyes of the law) his brother's children's crown. Tywin Lannister violated the law by attacking bannermen of the Tullys under the King's peace. Daenerys is probably violating all kinds of laws in campaigning to overthrow the Iron Throne itself.

Jon violated a stupid law of a bunch of misfits at the end of the world, because he wanted to save his sister from a rapist sadist monster. Wow. What a character flaw.

Seriously, in this series, might makes right. And in this case once Jon gains "might", he will make right something which wasn't even wrong in the first place.

[The Fattest Leech]

And Roose Bolton violated laws by partaking in first night "right" which Ramsay was the resulting whelp. And now Winterfell is held unlawfully by known usurpers. 

[The Hoare]

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Seriously, in this series, might makes right. And in this case once Jon gains "might", he will make right something which wasn't even wrong in the first place.

Then Jon was definitely wrong, since he was murdered. 

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And Roose Bolton violated laws by partaking in first night "right" which Ramsay was the resulting whelp. And now Winterfell is held unlawfully by known usurpers. 

Technically, the Boltons have more rights to Winterfell than the Starks, as the King can grant titles and castles to whatever he want.

Robb Stark was a greater usurper than Roose Bolton

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, The Hoare said:

Then Jon was definitely wrong, since he was murdered. 

Technically, the Boltons have more rights to Winterfell than the Starks, as the King can grant titles and castles to whatever he want.

Robb Stark was a greater usurper than Roose Bolton

Funny how a reader can defend a known false king Joffery, even Tommen) in the story, who doesn't have any real rule, but they can't see the bigger point to Jon's arc. Ceding to retake your historic right in the face of tyranny is not quite the same as usurping.

This debate is tiresome, and I am sure another jillion threads will be made on this same subject over and over until we get to the words, "The End."

[The Hoare]

12 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Funny how a reader can defend a known false king Joffery, even Tommen) in the story, who doesn't have any real rule, but they can't see the bigger point to Jon's arc. Ceding to retake your historic right in the face of tyranny is not quite the same as usurping.

This debate is tiresome, and I am sure another jillion threads will be made on this same subject over and over until we get to the words, "The End."

I'm speaking by the point of view of someone living in Westeros. For most of them, Tommen is still the true King.

Even if someone did not recognize Tommen's rule, then Stannis or even Aegon or Daenerys are the rightfull kings of Westeros and Robb Stark no more than a traitor.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

I'm speaking by the point of view of someone living in Westeros. For most of them, Tommen is still the true King.

Even if someone did not recognize Tommen's rule, then Stannis or even Aegon or Daenerys are the rightfull kings of Westeros and Robb Stark no more than a traitor.

Where do you draw this line? Or do you only go with the views that you prefer? Because it seems to me the Northerners renounced the Iron Throne as their Kings. So from the point of view of someone in the North, the Young Wolf was their rightful king.

Then you take someone who is still a Targ loyalist, say somewhere in Dorne or the Reach, and to them the Baratheons are usurpers and Daenerys (or Faegon) is the true King or Queen.

Then you take the Ironborn, and to them Euron is the true King.

So as Fattest Leech says, the debate is tiresome. People read into events what they want to read into them.

[the snow dragon]

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Because the hand rotted.

The thing is if anybody realy cared behond their own interests they wouldn't need proof.a lord commander of watch sends letters and a envoy procalaiming unnatural activities at wall and nobody takes him seriously. Atleast lords of the realms could have sent a man to investigate the truth.even if watch sends them a working whole weight they will proclame that it is only a single wight and and will demand the proof that there is a wight army.then they will demand the proof that said army is actualy angainst westeros.        now lets go one step further. Lets suppose watch is able to convince the lords about others threat, will they be inclined to help even then? The lords like tywen or for that matter most of the nobility will wait until the others have finished with their enemies. The books have clearly easteblished that nobility of westeros is so consumed by game of thrones that they nomore care about the colective wellfare.

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Because the hand rotted.

Tyrion, that cynical imp. 

But if you don't succeed, Jon Snow,  try and try again given the importance of the matter to make everyone aware of the coming danger. 

[The Commentator]

2 minutes ago, the snow dragon said:

The thing is if anybody realy cared behond their own interests they wouldn't need proof.a lord commander of watch sends letters and a envoy procalaiming unnatural activities at wall and nobody takes him seriously. Atleast lords of the realms could have sent a man to investigate the truth.even if watch sends them a working whole weight they will proclame that it is only a single wight and and will demand the proof that there is a wight army.then they will demand the proof that said army is actualy angainst westeros.        now lets go one step further. Lets suppose watch is able to convince the lords about others threat, will they be inclined to help even then? The lords like tywen or for that matter most of the nobility will wait until the others have finished with their enemies. The books have clearly easteblished that nobility of westeros is so consumed by game of thrones that they nomore care about the colective wellfare.

You would have to include the Starks in that company.  Even Osha knew they were looking in the wrong the direction. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

You would have to include the Starks in that company.  Even Osha knew they were looking in the wrong the direction. 

And where did the poster you quoted say, "the nobility of Westeros except the Starks"?

That's right, s/he didn't. 

 

[The Hoare]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Where do you draw this line? Or do you only go with the views that you prefer? Because it seems to me the Northerners renounced the Iron Throne as their Kings. So from the point of view of someone in the North, the Young Wolf was their rightful king.

Then you take someone who is still a Targ loyalist, say somewhere in Dorne or the Reach, and to them the Baratheons are usurpers and Daenerys (or Faegon) is the true King or Queen.

Then you take the Ironborn, and to them Euron is the true King.

So as Fattest Leech says, the debate is tiresome. People read into events what they want to read into them.

My point is that Robb had no more rights to a crown than a Mooton, a Royce or anyone that had a royal ancestor. What he did was steal two provinces that rightfully belong to the King. When I said that most believe that Tommen is the king, is because they also believe that he's Robert's son. If Cersei decided to confess her crimes, then Tommen wouldn't have any rights to the throne.

Consensus from the people doesn't really change the fact that Robb(or Euron btw) are usurpers. The North and the Riverlands are theirs to take.

1 hour ago, the snow dragon said:

The thing is if anybody realy cared behond their own interests they wouldn't need proof.a lord commander of watch sends letters and a envoy procalaiming unnatural activities at wall and nobody takes him seriously. Atleast lords of the realms could have sent a man to investigate the truth.even if watch sends them a working whole weight they will proclame that it is only a single wight and and will demand the proof that there is a wight army.then they will demand the proof that said army is actualy angainst westeros.        now lets go one step further. Lets suppose watch is able to convince the lords about others threat, will they be inclined to help even then? The lords like tywen or for that matter most of the nobility will wait until the others have finished with their enemies. The books have clearly easteblished that nobility of westeros is so consumed by game of thrones that they nomore care about the colective wellfare.

Of course nobody will take him seriously, the others are considered a legend. In Westeros, everyone think the Watch exist to keep them safe from wildlings, even the Watch itself believed it until recently. If the black brothers don't make efforts to convince Westeros of the Other's existence, nobody can expect that a lord would send someone to the far north to comprove it.

 

Of course they would help. It's a supernatural threat that can raise the dead. Tywin was willingly to let the wildlings invade the North, but that was because they were only humans and not ice zombies.

[Darkstream]

On 2017-6-17 at 4:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

We learn how important this vow is in AGoT, repeatedly, Eddard Stark, Maester Luwin, Maester Aemon, and Yoren show us this. The only thing that makes the NW special is the fact that they take no part. They are above the mundane struggles. This is why the Realm can afford to send criminals up there. If the lords had reason to believe they would there band together and turn against the Realm they would not do this.

But Jon can't live up to this standards, and it is sad to see that people are unwilling to acknowledge this.

No, what's sad is your inability, or unwillingness to recognize context, circumstance, and intent.  To be a treasonous traitor, one must commit an act with the willful intent to sabotage the cause of those that you are aligned to. In none of the examples you've provided - in which Jon has either broken, or walked the line in breaking his vows - was he intending to impede the cause of the Nights Watch, nor had his allegiance to the Watch faltered. And in fact, he made great sacrifice for the Watch, and had to make some very difficult decisions - of which can be argued, there was no right option - wherin he always made the choice that he felt was for the sake and benefit of the Watch, and of mankind. 

And what's sad is that's you don't realize how worthless these vows actually are. Sure, the intent and purpose of these oaths may have admiral goals in mind, and are all fine and dandy in theory, however, life and the tribulations that you must face throughout, are not as black and white as you would put forth, and wish them to be. The reason that GRRM  reinforces the importance of these vows in AGoT, as you've pointed out, is so that he can effectively show the dire consequences of one commiting themselves to such limiting and binding shackles. Where is the honor and duty in upholding yourself to a vow your swore, when doing so inhibits you from fulfilling the purpose of taking those vows in the first place? Where is the sense in abiding by laws, put in place to establish and maintain order and civility, when doing so results in a despairing and chaotic society that rewards the vile actions of deplorable and sadistic individuals such as Ramsey and others of his like? What you don't seem to realize is that these vows are to blame for the dire state that the Watch has fallen to. Why do you think the Watch is largely made up of criminals who had no other real options, other  than to serve at the Wall?

What's really sad, is that due to your own personal bias, you take Jon's actions and decision that were made with the best of intentions, and made in the attempt to do what was the right thing, to the best of his knowledge or understanding, and use them to demonize and condemn him. Did he make mistakes, or let his own bias and feelings cloud his judgement at times? Of course. Who hasn't been guilty of that at some point?

But to take these mistakes, and moments of poor judgement, and use them in an attempt to label Jon as a treasonous, oath breaking traitor, or to compare him to the likes of people like Daerion or Janos is just a ridiculously ignorant and asinine stance. Whether or not you agree with the decisions and moves that John made, and whether or not some of those decisions may have happened to coincided in benefiting the personal desires and bias of John, that does not change the fact that he always attempted to do what he felt was best for the prosperity and survival of the Watch, and of mankind. These are not motives and decisions of a treasonous, oath breaking traitor.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

31 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

My point is that Robb had no more rights to a crown than a Mooton, a Royce or anyone that had a royal ancestor. What he did was steal two provinces that rightfully belong to the King. When I said that most believe that Tommen is the king, is because they also believe that he's Robert's son. If Cersei decided to confess her crimes, then Tommen wouldn't have any rights to the throne.

Consensus from the people doesn't really change the fact that Robb(or Euron btw) are usurpers. The North and the Riverlands are theirs to take.

But why does it matter what most believe? You said yourself consensus from the people doesnt change anything.

[The Hoare]

44 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But why does it matter what most believe? You said yourself consensus from the people doesnt change anything.

Because they don't know that Jaime is his father. It's a rule based on lies, but most lords don't know it

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

No, what's sad is your inability, or unwillingness to recognize context, circumstance, and intent.  To be a treasonous traitor, one must commit an act with the willful intent to sabotage the cause of those that you are aligned to. In none of the examples you've provided - in which Jon has either broken, or walked the line in breaking his vows - was he intending to impede the cause of the Nights Watch, nor had his allegiance to the Watch faltered. And in fact, he made great sacrifice for the Watch, and had to make some very difficult decisions - of which can be argued, there was no right option - wherin he always made the choice that he felt was for the sake and benefit of the Watch, and of mankind. 

And what's sad is that's you don't realize how worthless these vows actually are. Sure, the intent and purpose of these oaths may have admiral goals in mind, and are all fine and dandy in theory, however, life and the tribulations that you must face throughout, are not as black and white as you would put forth, and wish them to be. The reason that GRRM  reinforces the importance of these vows in AGoT, as you've pointed out, is so that he can effectively show the dire consequences of one commiting themselves to such limiting and binding shackles. Where is the honor and duty in upholding yourself to a vow your swore, when doing so inhibits you from fulfilling the purpose of taking those vows in the first place? Where is the sense in abiding by laws, put in place to establish and maintain order and civility, when doing so results in a despairing and chaotic society that rewards the vile actions of deplorable and sadistic individuals such as Ramsey and others of his like? What you don't seem to realize is that these vows are to blame for the dire state that the Watch has fallen to. Why do you think the Watch is largely made up of criminals who had no other real options, other  than to serve at the Wall?

What's really sad, is that due to your own personal bias, you take Jon's actions and decision that were made with the best of intentions, and made in the attempt to do what was the right thing, to the best of his knowledge or understanding, and use them to demonize and condemn him. Did he make mistakes, or let his own bias and feelings cloud his judgement at times? Of course. Who hasn't been guilty of that at some point?

But to take these mistakes, and moments of poor judgement, and use them in an attempt to label Jon as a treasonous, oath breaking traitor, or to compare him to the likes of people like Daerion or Janos is just a ridiculously ignorant and asinine stance. Whether or not you agree with the decisions and moves that John made, and whether or not some of those decisions may have happened to coincided in benefiting the personal desires and bias of John, that does not change the fact that he always attempted to do what he felt was best for the prosperity and survival of the Watch, and of mankind. These are not motives and decisions of a treasonous, oath breaking traitor.

 

A brilliant post, I couldn't possibly agree more. 

Words are wind! It's not what you say, it's what you do. And it's not for nothing that Martin wouldn't let his editor remove a single one of the many "words are wind" from the book. 

If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me.

It's so easy to hide behind vows and orders... that's the refuge of cowards - "I was just following my vows/orders!"

Lots of people take maester Aemon's words to Jon about love being the death of duty as gospel. He is after all a very old and wise sweet man, so he must be right. Right? Wrong. Love is what will save the day (or night?). Love for your fellow human beings, regardless of where they were born or how they were brought up. 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 6/17/2017 at 3:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

We learn how important this vow is in AGoT, repeatedly, Eddard Stark, Maester Luwin, Maester Aemon, and Yoren show us this.

Wouldn't Yoren be an oath breaker as well then? For sneaking Arya away from the Crown and trying to take her back to Winterfell. Was that not interfering with the affairs of the realm? 

[Darkstream]

On 2017-6-17 at 4:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

There is quite some time in the beginning of ADwD for something like that. But Stannis makes no attempt to convince the powers in KL or really anyone what's going on up at the Wall. The man is smart and still has a reputation of honesty. Why isn't he trying to use that?

What? So in one thread you argue that Stannis is a rambling mad man that everyone in the realm hates, making absurd claims that he has no proof of, but then to suit your argument in this thread, all of a sudden you contradict that, and state that he has a reputation of honesty, and should be trying to convince that very faction - which he is currently at war with, and of whom consider him to be a traitor - of the situation beyond the wall. This makes no sense at all.