Jon was rightfully "terminated" by the Watch

[HallowedMarcus]

On 23/06/2017 at 7:08 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is actually pretty soft. Jon deserves to die for the whole Mance thing but Ramsay does not insist on that.

   As all Boltons deserve to die for betraying their Sire in the Red Wedding. People choose all the Time. Jon chose his family and many on the North join Stannis because they despise what the Boltons did. Don`t forget Westeros geography. Aemon Targaryen never tried to interfere in Robert's Rebelion. True. But if King's Landing were just where Winterfell was, what if his family was there, near to you and with a King (in this case Stannis) willing to gather men in the North to protect his family. Would Aemon have done nothing too.

   People are people. No one is perfect, Jon infiltrated the Wildlings, not because he was a turncoat but because Qhorin commands Jon to join the wildlings when they are discovered! There finds a female mate, he betrays - the Wildlings - a while after scaling the Wall. He finds out about the Others, he is pursued by enemies on the NW, he is elected LC, King Stannis demands a lot, he refuses to be nominated Lord of Winterfell by Stannis, because he joined the Watch and because he believes some of his half-brothers might still be alive. He was 14 years old when all began and was 16 to 17 when he was murdered. He was not an old or mature man like Aemon. He is not a god or a mature man. He was a teenager. He was conflicted all the way. I am with him. 

   Only after he decided to ask the NW and Wildlings to join him to overthrow the Bolton Family he, in fact, stepped over the line and was killed because of that.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   As all Boltons deserve to die for betraying their Sire in the Red Wedding.

All Boltons? Really? Roose didn't declare Robb his king nor did he ever do homage to him as his king or lord. They separated even before Ned was executed. And Robb could only then lay claim to Winterfell in his own right.

Roose had as much to choose his own king as Robb had to declare war on Joffrey or crown himself king.

Now, the manner of Robb's murder was a vile thing but the fact that Roose chose the winning side is nothing you can fault him for.

15 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

People choose all the Time. Jon chose his family and many on the North join Stannis because they despise what the Boltons did. Don`t forget Westeros geography. Aemon Targaryen never tried to interfere in Robert's Rebelion. True. But if King's Landing were just where Winterfell was, what if his family was there, near to you and with a King (in this case Stannis) willing to gather men in the North to protect his family. Would Aemon have done nothing too.

How do I know? That isn't the point. The point is that Aemon would have been killed as a deserter or traitor, too, had he tried to help his grandnephew Aerys.

15 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   People are people. No one is perfect, Jon infiltrated the Wildlings, not because he was a turncoat but because Qhorin commands Jon to join the wildlings when they are discovered! There finds a female mate, he betrays - the Wildlings - a while after scaling the Wall. He finds out about the Others, he is pursued by enemies on the NW, he is elected LC, King Stannis demands a lot, he refuses to be nominated Lord of Winterfell by Stannis, because he joined the Watch and because he believes some of his half-brothers might still be alive. He was 14 years old when all began and was 16 to 17 when he was murdered. He was not an old or mature man like Aemon. He is not a god or a mature man. He was a teenager. He was conflicted all the way. I am with him. 

I know that he is conflicted but this is no excuse for the things he pulls in the end. He has a responsibility for the men who elected him Lord Commander not for the sister he gave up when he spoke his vow. Which he also spoke of his own free will. He is no longer a normal black brother, he is the leader of the Night's Watch and as such he has to think of his men first, not of the wildlings or some siblings that should be dead to him.

And no, Jon does not think Bran or Rickon might still be alive.

He got away with too much. First with his attempt to kill Alliser Thorne, then with his first desertion, then with the whole wildling thing. That is too much. It gives him the impression he can do whatever the hell he wants without suffering any consequences. That is what gets him killed in the end. Had he gotten a taste of his own medicine from Jeor Mormont - the execution medicine he gives Janos Slynt to swallow - he might have thought twice or even thrice before sending Mance down south or declaring war on the Boltons. 

15 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   Only after he decided to ask the NW and Wildlings to join him to overthrow the Bolton Family he, in fact, stepped over the line and was killed because of that.

That was just the logical endpoint.

I mean, we can discuss a lot of about the wildling thing a Marsh's apparent irrational bias against them, but do you know how the idea to train wildlings at arms must look to any impartial observer? That Jon Snow is planning to train a wildling army for King Stannis. Once Stannis returns from Winterfell he could many of the wildlings brought through the Wall to continue his doomed campaign to win the Iron Throne.

And since he most certainly would lose should he ever again march down the Neck the Night's Watch would in the end have to pay for this whole thing, one way or another.

[Wall Flower]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? You are just coming up with an idea that sounds convenient to you with no basis on the text. Ramsay Bolton isn't just some sort, he is the Lord of the Hornwood (by virtue of his widow, the Lady Donella), the Lord of Winterfell (by virtue of his wife, the Lady Arya), and the heir to the Dreadfort. He is a very important man.

His state of mind and sexual preferences are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Especially in light of the fact that Jon Snow pretty much knows nothing about those. How could he?

Ramsay is representing the Crown in this matter. This is pretty obvious in the letter. He has defeated and killed the traitor and pretender Stannis (or so he claims) and now he wrapping things up be dealing with the pitiful remnants of Stannis' forces and family.

The Watch would have handed Rhaella and her children to an Umber, Karstark, or Bolton just as well as to a Stark or Robert himself.

It is hundreds of watchmen against a dozen or a score of men-at-arms and a handful of knights in the retinue of Queen Selyse. It should be doable without spilling any blood or at least not spilling all that much blood.

Doing nothing would mean to provoke the Boltons even further, resulting in an attack on Castle Black conducted by thousands of Northmen fighting for Roose and Ramsay. That would be the end of the NW.

We know that wives essentially are the property of their husbands. We know that Ramsay marrying and subsequently murdering Lady Donella doesn't mean said marriage is seen as unlawful. We know wives swear to obey their husbands when they marry them and we know that husbands have a right to physically chastise their wives. We also know that there is no such thing as marital rape in Westeros.

That basically means that no man has any right to come between a husband and his wife. But even if there were certain situations where a brother or father could try to save his sister or daughter from the treatment she is suffering at the hands of her husband a sworn brother of the Night's Watch doesn't have any such rights. He no longer has any sisters or daughters after he swears his vow.

I agree that he wouldn't have done anything if Melisandre hadn't suggested it but this is irrelevant to the topic at hand. He gave Mance permission to try to save her and Mance certainly was under the impression that he should rescue Arya, never mind whether she is in or outside of Winterfell. Else the man would never have gone to Winterfell to risk his life and the lives of his companions in that place.

It is also quite clear that either Mance or one of the women blamed Jon Snow for the entire mission by telling Ramsay (before he wrote the Pink Letter) that they were there on Jon Snow's orders. Else Ramsay wouldn't have known about that and never written a letter to Jon.

Jon is also not aghast or pissed that Mance or one of the women told Ramsay that he sent them. He doesn't feel betrayed by them. He doesn't seem to have a problem with the fact that they went to Winterfell.

But even if he were - Ramsay now believes that Jon Snow sent Mance and those women into his castle to steal his bride, and that means that he has a right to strike back at Jon. It does not matter whether he is completely correct in that belief. Again, Ned could have been guilty of treason but that wouldn't have stopped Robb from rebelling against the Iron Throne. Why do we all tolerate Robb's actions or even applaud him but don't grant Ramsay a similar right? And in fact, Ramsay is taking a much more cautious and less confrontational approach than Robb. Robb never wrote a letter to Joffrey and Cersei so that they could meet his demands (like freeing his father). He just called the banners and went to war.

Ramsay was denounced as a criminal for his actions against Lady Hornwood and Ser Rodrik Cassel went after him. It was only by virtue of swapping clothes with Reek that Ramsay survived. 'Ramsay' was killed in the commission of a crime (the rape and murder of a peasant woman) and his accomplice 'Reek' was brought back to Winterfell as a witness to Ramsay's crimes, where he was freed by Theon. Ramsay is only able to call himself Lord Hornwood and  escape punishment for his crimes because of the fall of Robb Stark and the ascendancy of Roose Bolton.

Jon Snow may not know everything about Ramsay's predilections but it is highly likely that he knows what happened to Ramsay's last wife. Even so, as others have pointed out, he doesn't make any move to help his sister until he believes that she has already escaped. The reason that Ramsay is so pissed is that if 'Arya' were to make it to Jon Snow, the fraudulent nature of his marriage to Arya Stark would be exposed and that marriage is one of things bolstering his claim to Winterfell.

We're excluded from Jon and Tormond's conversation before Jon reads out the pink letter in the shield hall. For what it's worth, I think Jon may have gone rogue in part to draw the Bolton's ire to himself and away from Night's Watch - hence his deliberate discouragement of his black brothers from joining his mission. We can understand what motivated Marsh and his  co-conspirators but I would have to question whether assassination is a lawful and proper means of removing a Lord Commander from his post.

I don't think we are meant to be uncritical of the ethos of institutions like the Night's Watch and the Kingsguard. Jon's prepared to fight alongside men like the Weeper out of necessity but you're talking about handing innocent women and children over to their deaths (as would likely happen to Selyse and Shireen). Once complicity with evil becomes your definition of a good Lord Commander, it might be time for a rethink of the institution. There may be a reason why Jeor Mormont died in Craster's keep, the very place where he thought it was his duty to look the other way while monstrous evil took place.

Aside from any other consideration, handing Selyse and Shireen over to Ramsay could be a tad awkward for the Night's Watch once it turns out that Stannis is not in fact dead.

[Prof. Cecily]

I've been  about trials and Westerosi attitudes and perceptions of trials

The subject  served as an excuse for binging on https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ 

Anyway, here are some things I've found for consideration:

Spoiler

 

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Lysa's suitors were gathering around them like bees round a blossom. "Women understand little of these things," Ser Morton Waynwood said. "Ser Vardis is a knight, sweet lady. This other fellow, well, his sort are all cowards at heart. Useful enough in a battle, with thousands of their fellows around them, but stand them up alone and the manhood leaks right out of them."

"Say you have the truth of it, then," Catelyn said with a courtesy that made her mouth ache. "What will we gain by the dwarf's death? Do you imagine that Jaime will care a fig that we gave his brother a trial before we flung him off a mountain?"

"Behead the man," Ser Lyn Corbray suggested. "When the Kingslayer receives the Imp's head, it will be a warning to him."

Lysa gave an impatient shake of her waist-long auburn hair. "Lord Robert wants to see him fly," she said, as if that settled the matter. "And the Imp has only himself to blame. It was he who demanded a trial by combat."

"Lady Lysa had no honorable way to deny him, even if she'd wished to," Lord Hunter intoned ponderously.

 

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"Trial first," drawled Ser Lyn Corbray, "then execution."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VII

 

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Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."

"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."

"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys's pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was . . . well, not burn.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

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He wondered what was happening beyond the walls (such as they were) of his cell. Lord Tywin would surely have sent out riders when the word reached him. Jaime might be leading a host through the Mountains of the Moon even now … unless he was riding north against Winterfell instead. Did anyone outside the Vale even suspect where Catelyn Stark had taken him? He wondered what Cersei would do when she heard. The king could order him freed, but would Robert listen to his queen or his Hand? Tyrion had no illusions about the king's love for his sister.

If Cersei kept her wits about her, she would insist the king sit in judgment of Tyrion himself. Even Ned Stark could scarcely object to that, not without impugning the honor of the king. And Tyrion would be only too glad to take his chances in a trial. Whatever murders they might lay at his door, the Starks had no proof of anything so far as he could see. Let them make their case before the Iron Throne and the lords of the land. It would be the end of them. If only Cersei were clever enough to see that …

Tyrion Lannister sighed. His sister was not without a certain low cunning, but her pride blinded her. She would see the insult in this, not the opportunity. And Jaime was even worse, rash and headstrong and quick to anger. His brother never untied a knot when he could slash it in two with his sword.

 

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 "You want a trial, my lord of Lannister. Very well, a trial you shall have. My son will listen to whatever you care to say, and you shall hear his judgment. Then you may leave … by one door or the other."

She looked so pleased with herself, Tyrion thought, and small wonder. How could a trial threaten her, when her weakling son was the lord judge? Tyrion glanced at her Moon Door. Mother, I want to see him fly! the boy had said. How many men had the snot-nosed little wretch sent through that door already?

"I thank you, my good lady, but I see no need to trouble Lord Robert," Tyrion said politely. "The gods know the truth of my innocence. I will have their verdict, not the judgment of men. I demand trial by combat."

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion V

 

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Tyrion sighed. "I suppose we must make some sort of bloody lesson out of the man?"

"Ser Jacelyn could arrange for him to vanish, but a trial before the king would help assure the continued loyalty of the other captains."

And keep my royal nephew occupied as well. "As you say. Put him down for a dose of Joffrey's justice."

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion II

 

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"Would he hang him, Lem?" one of the village women asked. "It'd be half a shame to hang a man as pretty as that one."

"A trial first!" said Anguy. "Lord Beric always gives them a trial, you know that." He smiled. "Then he hangs them."

There was laughter all around. Then Tom drew his fingers across the strings of his woodharp and broke into soft song.

A Storm of Swords - Arya III

 

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Lord Beric slammed his sword into its scabbard, quenching the flames. "Give the dying the gift of mercy and bind the others hand and foot for trial," he commanded, and it was done.

The trials went swiftly. Various of the outlaws came forward to tell of things the Brave Companions had done; towns and villages sacked, crops burned, women raped and murdered, men maimed and tortured. A few spoke of the boys that Septon Utt had carried off. The septon wept and prayed through it all. "I am a weak reed," he told Lord Beric. "I pray to the Warrior for strength, but the gods made me weak. Have mercy on my weakness. The boys, the sweet boys . . . I never mean to hurt them . . ."

Septon Utt soon dangled beneath a tall elm, swinging slowly by the neck, as naked as his name day. The other Brave Companions followed one by one. A few fought, kicking and struggling as the noose was tightened round their throats. One of the crossbowmen kept shouting, "I soldier, I soldier," in a thick Myrish accent. Another offered to lead his captors to gold; a third told them what a good outlaw he would make. Each was stripped and bound and hanged in turn. Tom Sevenstrings played a dirge for them on his woodharp, and Thoros implored the Lord of Light to roast their souls until the end of time.

 

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"A smith can find a welcome most anywhere. A skilled armorer even more so. Why would you choose to stay with us?"

Arya watched Gendry screw up his stupid face, thinking. "At the hollow hill, what you said about being King Robert's men, and brothers, I liked that. I liked that you gave the Hound a trial. Lord Bolton just hanged folk or took off their heads, and Lord Tywin and Ser Amory were the same. I'd sooner smith for you."

 

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Lord Beric shook his head. "Clegane won his life beneath the hollow hill. I will not rob him of it."

"My lord is wise," Thoros told the others. "Brothers, a trial by battle is a holy thing. You heard me ask R'hllor to take a hand, and you saw his fiery finger snap Lord Beric's sword, just as he was about to make an end of it. The Lord of Light is not yet done with Joffrey's Hound, it would seem."

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

 

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The thought turned his stomach. "I must know more of this. Of how it happened."

"You shall," Cersei promised. "There's to be a trial. When you hear all he did, you'll want him dead as much as I do." She touched his face. "I was lost without you, Jaime. I was afraid the Starks would send me your head. I could not have borne that." She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. "I am not whole without you."

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VII

 

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Tyrion," Ser Kevan Lannister said wearily, "if you are indeed innocent of Joffrey's death, you should have no difficulty proving it at trial."

Tyrion turned from the window. "Who is to judge me?"

Justice belongs to the throne. The king is dead, but your father remains Hand. Since it is his own son who stands accused and his grandson who was the victim, he has asked Lord Tyrell and Prince Oberyn to sit in judgment with him."

Tyrion was scarcely reassured. Mace Tyrell had been Joffrey's good-father, however briefly, and the Red Viper was . . . well, a snake. "Will I be allowed to demand trial by battle?"

"I would not advise that."

"Why not?" It had saved him in the Vale, why not here? "Answer me, Uncle. Will I be allowed a trial by battle, and a champion to prove my innocence?"

"Certainly, if such is your wish. However, you had best know that your sister means to name Ser Gregor Clegane as her champion, in the event of such a trial."

The bitch checks my moves before I make them. A pity she didn't choose a Kettleblack. Bronn would make short work of any of the three brothers, but the Mountain That Rides was a kettle of a different color. "I shall need to sleep on this." I need to speak with Bronn, and soon. He didn't want to think about what this was like to cost him. Bronn had a lofty notion of what his skin was worth. "Does Cersei have witnesses against me?"

 

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"So one of my judges has already condemned me, without hearing a word in my defense?" It was no more than he expected. "Will I still be allowed to speak and present witnesses?"

"You have no witnesses," his uncle reminded him. "Tyrion, if you are guilty of this enormity, the Wall is a kinder fate than you deserve. And if you are blameless . . . there is fighting in the north, I know, but even so it will be a safer place for you than King's Landing, whatever the outcome of this trial. The mob is convinced of your guilt. Were you so foolish as to venture out into the streets, they would tear you limb from limb."

"I can see how much that prospect upsets you."

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX

 

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"Nothing of the sort," said Tyrion. "Of Joffrey's death I am innocent. I am guilty of a more monstrous crime." He took a step toward his father. "I was born. I lived. I am guilty of being a dwarf, I confess it. And no matter how many times my good father forgave me, I have persisted in my infamy."

 

"This is folly, Tyrion," declared Lord Tywin. "Speak to the matter at hand. You are not on trial for being a dwarf."

"That is where you err, my lord. I have been on trial for being a dwarf my entire life."

"Have you nothing to say in your defense?"

"Nothing but this: I did not do it. Yet now I wish I had." He turned to face the hall, that sea of pale faces. "I wish I had enough poison for you all. You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be, yet there it is. I am innocent, but I will get no justice here. You leave me no choice but to appeal to the gods. I demand trial by battle."

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

 

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Past time, he thought. Come on, come on, make an end to it. He pushed himself to his feet. His legs were asleep from being folded under him. He bent down and rubbed the knives from them. I will not go stumbling and waddling to the headsman's block.

He wondered whether they would kill him down here in the dark or drag him through the city so Ser Ilyn Payne could lop his head off. After his mummer's farce of a trial, his sweet sister and loving father might prefer to dispose of him quietly, rather than risk a public execution. I could tell the mob a few choice things, if they let me speak. But would they be that foolish?

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI

 

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"So you sewed his head on Robb Stark's neck after both o' them were dead," said yellow cloak.

"My father did that. All I did was drink. You wouldn't kill a man for drinking." Merrett remembered something then, something that might be the saving of him. "They say Lord Beric always gives a man a trial, that he won't kill a man unless something's proved against him. You can't prove anything against me. The Red Wedding was my father's work, and Ryman's and Lord Bolton's. Lothar rigged the tents to collapse and put the crossbowmen in the gallery with the musicians, Bastard Walder led the attack on the camps . . . they're the ones you want, not me, I only drank some wine . . . you have no witness."

"As it happens, you're wrong there." The singer turned to the hooded woman. "Milady?"

A Storm of Swords - Epilogue

 

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"And the Hollards?"

"Attainted and destroyed," said the maester. "I was forging my chain at the Citadel when this happened, but I have read the accounts of their trials and punishments. Ser Jon Hollard the Steward was wed to Lord Denys's sister and died with his wife, as did their young son, who was half-Darklyn. Robin Hollard was a squire, and when the king was seized he danced around him and pulled his beard. He died upon the rack. Ser Symon Hollard was slain by Ser Barristan during the king's escape. The Hollard lands were taken, their castle torn down, their villages put to the torch. As with the Darklyns, House Hollard was extinguished."

"Save for Dontos."

A Feast for Crows - Brienne II

 

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Lady Merryweather closed the door behind him. "Moon tea," she said, as she turned back to the queen. "How foolish of her. Why would she do such a thing, take such a risk?"

"The little queen has appetites that Tommen is as yet too young to satisfy." That was always a danger, when a grown woman was married to a child. Even more so with a widow. She may claim that Renly never touched her, but I will not believe it. Women only drank moon tea for one reason; maidens had no need for it at all. "My son has been betrayed. Margaery has a lover. That is high treason, punishable by death." She could only hope that Mace Tyrell's prune-faced harridan of a mother lived long enough to see the trial. By insisting that Tommen and Margaery be wed at once, Lady Olenna had condemned her precious rose to a headsman's sword. "Jaime made off with Ser Ilyn Payne. I suppose I shall need to find a new King's Justice to snick her head off."

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

 

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"Peace?" Ser Harys dabbed at his brow with a velvet sleeve. "If peace is possible . . . that is very brave of you."

"Some sort of trial may be necessary," said the queen, "to disprove these base calumnies and lies and show the world that our sweet Margaery is the innocent we all know her to be."

"Aye," said Merryweather, "but this High Septon may want to try the queen himself, as the Faith once tried men of old."

A Feast for Crows - Cersei X

 

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"She is not. Holy septas have examined her, and testify that her maidenhead is broken. She has drunk of moon tea, to murder the fruit of her fornications in her womb. An anointed knight has sworn upon his sword to having carnal knowledge of her and two of her three cousins. Others have lain with her as well, he says, and names many names of men both great and humble."

"My gold cloaks have taken all of them to the dungeons," Cersei assured him. "Only one has yet been questioned, a singer called the Blue Bard. What he had to say was disturbing. Even so, I pray that when my good-daughter is brought to trial, her innocence may yet be proved." She hesitated. "Tommen loves his little queen so much, Your Holiness, I fear it might be hard for him or his lords to judge her justly. Perhaps the Faith should conduct the trial?"

The High Sparrow steepled his thin hands. "I have had the selfsame thought, Your Grace. Just as Maegor the Cruel once took the swords from the Faith, so Jaehaerys the Conciliator deprived us of the scales of judgment. Yet who is truly fit to judge a queen, save the Seven Above and the godsworn below? A sacred court of seven judges shall sit upon this case. Three shall be of your female sex. A maiden, a mother, and a crone. Who could be more suited to judge the wickedness of women?"

A Feast for Crows - Cersei X

 

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Tyrell did not let him finish. "These charges against my daughter are filthy lies. I ask again, why must we play out this mummer's farce? Have King Tommen declare my daughter innocent, ser, and put an end to the foolishness here and now."

Do that, and the whispers will follow Margaery the rest of her life. "No man doubts your daughter's innocence, my lord," Ser Kevan lied, "but His High Holiness insists upon a trial."

Lord Randyll snorted. "What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?"

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

 

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"I," said Dunk, "I . . . Your Grace, I . . ." They meant no treason, it was only a wooden dragon, it was never meant to be a royal prince, he wanted to say, but his words had deserted him once and all. He had never been any good with words.

"You have another choice, though," Prince Baelor said quietly. "Whether it is a better choice or a worse one, I cannot say, but I remind you that any knight accused of a crime has the right to demand trial by combat. So I ask you once again, Ser Duncan the Tall—how good a knight are you? Truly?"

The Hedge Knight

 

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Yet in one thing, Lord Stark would not be dissuaded: the betrayers and poisoners of King Aegon II must pay the price. To kill a cruel and unjust king in lawful battle was one thing. But foul murder, and the use of poison, was a betrayal against the very gods who had anointed him. Cregan had twenty-two men arrested in Aegon III's name—among them Larys Clubfoot and Corlys Velaryon. Cowed, the young Aegon III—who was eleven at the time—agreed to make Lord Stark his Hand.

Cregan Stark served in that office for a single day, presiding over the trials and executions. Most of the accused took the black (led by the cunning Ser Perkin the Flea). Two alone chose death—Ser Gyles Belgrave of the Kingsguard, who did not wish to outlive his king, and Larys the Clubfoot, the last of the ancient line of House Strong.

Lord Corlys was spared a trial by the machinations of Baela and Rhaena Targaryen, who convinced Aegon to issue an edict restoring to him his offices and honors, then by Black Aly Blackwood when she gave Lord Stark her hand in marriage in return for the boon of allowing Aegon's edict to stand.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III

 

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Matters between them were inflamed further by Prince Aemon, their brother, who had been inseparable from Naerys when they were young. Aegon's resentment of his noble, celebrated brother was plain to all, for the king delighted in slighting Aemon and Naerys both at every turn. Even after the Dragonknight died in his defense, and Queen Naerys perished in childbed the year after, Aegon IV did little to honor their memory.

The king's quarrels with his close kin became all the worse after his son Daeron grew old enough to voice his opinions. Kaeth's Lives of Four Kings makes it plain that the false accusations of the queen's adultery made by Ser Morgil Hastwyck were instigated by the king himself, though at the time Aegon denied it. These claims were disproved by Ser Morgil's death in a trial by combat against the Dragonknight. That these accusations came at the same time as Aegon and Prince Daeron were quarreling over the king's plans to launch an unprovoked war against Dorne was surely no coincidence. It was also the first (but not the last) time that Aegon threatened to name one of his bastards as his heir instead of Daeron.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon IV

 

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The Hand’s impassioned protests had been in vain. All the queen’s fears and suspicions had been aroused. She had been betrayed so often, by so many, that she was quick to believe the worst of any man. Treachery no longer had the power to surprise her. She had come to expect it, even from those she loved the most.

Queen Rhaenyra command Ser Luthor Largent to take twenty gold cloaks to the Dragonpit and arrest Ser Addam Velaryon. And thus did betrayal beget more betrayal, to the queen’s undoing. As Ser Luthor Largent and his gold cloaks rode up Rhaenys’s Hill with the queen’s warrant, the doors of the Dragonpit were thrown open above them, and Seasmoke spread his pale grey wings and took flight, smoke rising from his nostrils. Ser Addam Velaryon had been forewarned in time to make his escape. Balked and angry, Ser Luthor returned at once to the Red Keep, where he burst into the Tower of the Hand and laid rough hands on the aged Lord Corlys, accusing him of treachery. Nor did the old man deny it. Bound and beaten, but still silent, he was taken down into the dungeons and thrown into a black cell to await trial and execution.

The Princess and the Queen

 

 

While the lesser folk, or the more innocent at heart view trials as a search for the truth, the upper classes see trials as a set piece, a prelude to an execution.

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"Trial first," drawled Ser Lyn Corbray, "then execution."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VII

 

All that I've read reminds me forcibly of the trial of Jean d'Arc as well as various trials in Tudor times, such as that of sir Thomas More or that of Catalina de Aragon.

GRRM manages to reflect the cynicism towards the testimony of witnesses and also allows us to understand why someone would be reasonably expected to choose a trial by combat.

Anyway, that's my take on the Westerosi legal system, based on what I could find in the texts.

Oh, for a month in the Citadel's library!

My next post will treat the subject of deserters of the NW.

 

 

[Prof. Cecily]

Hmmm.

Deserters of the Night's Watch

Here my crop of quotations from the texts:

Spoiler

 

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"He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."

His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it."

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

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"I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

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"Let's have a look," said the big bald man.

Bran watched him anxiously. The man's clothes were filthy, fallen almost to pieces, patched here with brown and here with blue and there with a dark green, and faded everywhere to grey, but once that cloak might have been black. The grey stubbly man wore black rags too, he saw with a sudden start. Suddenly Bran remembered the oathbreaker his father had beheaded, the day they had found the wolf pups; that man had worn black as well, and Father said he had been a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous, he remembered Lord Eddard saying. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile or cruel.

A Game of Thrones - Bran V

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"A man of the Night's Watch lives his life for the realm. Not for a king, nor a lord, nor the honor of this house or that house, neither for gold nor glory nor a woman's love, but for the realm, and all the people in it. A man of the Night's Watch takes no wife and fathers no sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor. And you are the only sons we shall ever know.

"You have learned the words of the vow. Think carefully before you say them, for once you have taken the black, there is no turning back. The penalty for desertion is death." The Old Bear paused for a moment before he said, "Are there any among you who wish to leave our company? If so, go now, and no one shall think the less of you."

A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

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"Quiet!"

They all fell silent, listening. Jon found himself holding his breath. Sam, he thought. He hadn't gone to the Old Bear, but he hadn't gone to bed either, he'd woken the other boys. Damn them all. Come dawn, if they were not in their beds, they'd be named deserters too. What did they think they were doing?

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

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"Pity, we could use a horse like that."

Jon stood tall. He told himself that he would die well; that much he could do, at the least. "I know the penalty for desertion, my lord. I'm not afraid to die."

"Die!" the raven cried.

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

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The dogs pulled at him as they made their way through the trees. Chett could see the Fist punching its way up through the green. The day was so dark that the Old Bear had the torches lit, a great circle of them burning all along the ringwall that crowned the top of the steep stony hill. The three of them waded across a brook. The water was icy cold, and patches of ice were spreading across its surface. "I'm going to make for the coast," Lark the Sisterman confided. "Me and my cousins. We'll build us a boat, sail back home to the Sisters."

And at home they'll know you for deserters and lop off your fool heads, thought Chett. There was no leaving the Night's Watch, once you said your words. Anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, they'd take you and kill you.

A Storm of Swords - Prologue

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The wildling woman Val turned to face them. "I've heard the queen's men saying that the red woman means to give Mance to the fire, as soon as he is strong enough."

Jon gave her a weary look. "Mance is a deserter from the Night's Watch. The penalty for that is death. If the Watch had taken him, he would have been hanged by now, but he's the king's captive, and no one knows the king's mind but the red woman."

"I want to see him," Val said. "I want to show him his son. He deserves that much, before you kill him."

A Storm of Swords - Samwell IV

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Jon nodded, and turned back to the king. "Your Grace, you spoke of Val. She has asked to see Mance Rayder, to bring his son to him. It would be a . . . a kindness."

"The man is a deserter from your order. Your brothers are all insisting on his death. Why should I do him a kindness?"

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

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It made him wonder if even Horn Hill was truly safe. The Tarly lands lay inland amidst thickly wooded foothills, a hundred leagues northeast of Oldtown and a long way from any coast. They should be well beyond the reach of ironmen and longships, even with his lord father off fighting in the riverlands and the castle lightly held. The Young Wolf had no doubt thought the same was true of Winterfell until the night that Theon Turncloak scaled his walls. Sam could not bear the thought that he might have brought Gilly and her babe all this long way to keep them out of harm, only to abandon them in the midst of war.

He wrestled with his doubts through the rest of the voyage, wondering what to do. He could keep Gilly with him in Oldtown, he supposed. The city's walls were much more formidable than those of his father's castle, and had thousands of men to defend them, as opposed to the handful Lord Randyll would have left at Horn Hill when he marched to Highgarden to answer his liege lord's summons. If he did, though, he would need to hide her somehow; the Citadel did not permit its novices to keep wives or paramours, at least not openly. Besides, if I stay with Gilly very much longer, how will I ever find the strength to leave her? He had to leave her, or desert. I said the words, Sam reminded himself. If I desert, it will mean my head, and how will that help Gilly?

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

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"I would hope the truth would please you, Sire. Your men call Val a princess, but to the free folk she is only the sister of their king's dead wife. If you force her to marry a man she does not want, she is like to slit his throat on their wedding night. Even if she accepts her husband, that does not mean the wildlings will follow him, or you. The only man who can bind them to your cause is Mance Rayder."

"I know that," Stannis said, unhappily. "I have spent hours speaking with the man. He knows much and more of our true enemy, and there is cunning in him, I'll grant you. Even if he were to renounce his kingship, though, the man remains an oathbreaker. Suffer one deserter to live, and you encourage others to desert. No. Laws should be made of iron, not of pudding. Mance Rayder's life is forfeit by every law of the Seven Kingdoms."

"The law ends at the Wall, Your Grace. You could make good use of Mance."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

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"No one beat me." The girl crawled on all fours until she found her stick, then sprang back to her feet, bruised and dirty. The vault was still and silent. He was gone. Or was he? He could be standing right beside her, she would never know. Listen for his breathing, she told herself, but there was nothing. She gave it another moment, then put her stick aside and resumed her work. If I had my eyes, I could beat him bloody. One day the kindly man would give them back, and she would show them all.

The old woman's corpse was cool by now, the bravo's body stiffening. The girl was used to that. Most days, she spent more time with the dead than with the living. She missed the friends she'd had when she was Cat of the Canals; Old Brusco with his bad back, his daughters Talea and Brea, the mummers from the Ship, Merry and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum. She missed Cat herself the most of all, even more than she missed her eyes. She had liked being Cat, more than she had ever liked being Salty or Squab or Weasel or Arry. I killed Cat when I killed that singer. The kindly man had told her that they would have taken her eyes from her anyway, to help her to learn to use her other senses, but not for half a year. Blind acolytes were common in the House of Black and White, but few as young as she. The girl was not sorry, though. Dareon had been a deserter from the Night's Watch; he had deserved to die.

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

 

 

 

As is obvious (well, as obvious as any GRRM text can be!) from reading the texts, the in-universe characters are unanimous in considering a deserter of the NW as someone will will be killed out of hand if caught.

There's nothing anywhere to suggest that any factors are taken into consideration here, nor that anything resembling a trial is ever contemplated.

Immediate death is the penalty.

Except for one outstanding exception-

Jon Snow.

[Damsel in Distress]

13 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Ramsay was denounced as a criminal for his actions against Lady Hornwood and Ser Rodrik Cassel went after him. It was only by virtue of swapping clothes with Reek that Ramsay survived. 'Ramsay' was killed in the commission of a crime (the rape and murder of a peasant woman) and his accomplice 'Reek' was brought back to Winterfell as a witness to Ramsay's crimes, where he was freed by Theon. Ramsay is only able to call himself Lord Hornwood and  escape punishment for his crimes because of the fall of Robb Stark and the ascendancy of Roose Bolton.

Jon Snow may not know everything about Ramsay's predilections but it is highly likely that he knows what happened to Ramsay's last wife. Even so, as others have pointed out, he doesn't make any move to help his sister until he believes that she has already escaped. The reason that Ramsay is so pissed is that if 'Arya' were to make it to Jon Snow, the fraudulent nature of his marriage to Arya Stark would be exposed and that marriage is one of things bolstering his claim to Winterfell.

Jon interfered with the politics of the kingdom.  He had no business trying to take Arya away from Ramsay.  Those vows and oaths preventing him from doing so are there for very good reasons.  Jon made his move because Mance Rayder suddenly became available for him to use.  Was it Jon's intentions to rescue Arya and then take her back to the Boltons?  No it was not.  Jon was going to take her back to Castle Black and thus will force the Night Watch into conflict if the Boltons tried to take her back.  Jon was 100% wrong to have engaged in all that he did.  He started that fight with Ramsay and he had no reason to do so.

The Boltons have a claim to Winterfell because the rulers of Westeros gave them Winterfell and made Roose the Warden of the North.  The marriage was simply to make the change more socially acceptable to the north.  The change was already legal even without the marriage. 

We're excluded from Jon and Tormond's conversation before Jon reads out the pink letter in the shield hall. For what it's worth, I think Jon may have gone rogue in part to draw the Bolton's ire to himself and away from Night's Watch - hence his deliberate discouragement of his black brothers from joining his mission. We can understand what motivated Marsh and his  co-conspirators but I would have to question whether assassination is a lawful and proper means of removing a Lord Commander from his post.

The reason why the Boltons are threatening the watch?  Because Jon sent the realm's best known criminal to take away Ramsay's bride.  That same criminal came in under the disguise of traveling entertainers, took shelter under their roof, ate their food, and murdered their servants. 

Jon had to be stopped.  What other options were left for Bowen Marsh.  For the treason of pardoning Mance alone is deserving of Jon's execution.  Jon became worst than the NK.  It was Marsh's job to stop him. 

I don't think we are meant to be uncritical of the ethos of institutions like the Night's Watch and the Kingsguard. Jon's prepared to fight alongside men like the Weeper out of necessity but you're talking about handing innocent women and children over to their deaths (as would likely happen to Selyse and Shireen). Once complicity with evil becomes your definition of a good Lord Commander, it might be time for a rethink of the institution. There may be a reason why Jeor Mormont died in Craster's keep, the very place where he thought it was his duty to look the other way while monstrous evil took place.

I don't think we are meant to be uncritical of Jon Snow.  He had a job to do.  He swore to do that job according to the rules they have been given.  He chose instead to put personal concerns ahead of those duties and endangered his sworn brothers.  He went even beyond that and endangered the kingdom. 

Aside from any other consideration, handing Selyse and Shireen over to Ramsay could be a tad awkward for the Night's Watch once it turns out that Stannis is not in fact dead.

It would be awkward but the watch cannot harbor rebels. Hospitality can only go so far.  

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

22 hours ago, El Guapo said:

I don't know how that mangy mutt lasted as long as it did. For one it never should have been allowed in Castle Black to begin with and secondly it should have been destroyed after then recruit Jon Snow used it to intimidate other NW recruits in to interfering with Ser Alliser's training of young Sam Tarly. How Jon Snow was not punished for that treason I will never understand.

Jon got away with too much.  He came in with good sword skills and that may be the reason why he got favored treatment from the officers except Thorne.  I have to put some of the blame on Samwell for getting Jon elected.  Jon was a poor choice for any position of power and authority.  He could have been ok as a ranger but no way he should have been commander.  

 

On 6/24/2017 at 11:51 AM, Bowen Marsh said:

Thank you all for the support.  I assure you.  It brought me no pleasure to terminate Jon Snow but I had no other option to stop his raid on House Bolton.  That's water under the bridge as the saying goes in your world.  Lady Barbrey I now am in need of your advice on how to handle the mess left behind by my former LC. 

I should let the wildlings exit Castle Black.  I don't have the man power to stop them.  Then what?

• Send a raven to warn the warden of the north?
• What to do about the giant gone berserk?
• Freeze, burn, or bury the body of Jon?
• Write a letter to King Tommen's council to let them know what took place here?

 

Of course you need to send a raven to Roose.  You need to warn him of the wildlings coming to attack.  Put all of the blame on Jon and let him know that the watch took care of its internal problems.  

Why the giant went apeshit is an unknown.  It may have something to do with Val.  It doesn't matter.  If he doesn't calm the remaining knights will take care of him.  He's not your problem so don't make him your problem.

Burn.  You don't want that one coming back for you.  Burn.

It's not your responsibility to write the king.  Elect a new commander and let him write the letter.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Bowen Marsh and Jaime Lannister were faced with the same situation.  I find it interesting.  I can only hope Bowen's heroism will be remembered and honored.  

[kissdbyfire]

This is officially the funniest thread going. 

[BalerionTheCat]

17 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

Only after he decided to ask the NW and Wildlings to join him to overthrow the Bolton Family he, in fact, stepped over the line and was killed because of that.

He only did what was right. He was wrong when he tried to desert for Robb. But the LC was right in giving him a second chance. Like Ned was wrong in killing Gared and not helping him after what he went thru. There is no justice in the NW laws. There is no honor in holding oaths to men who don't deserve it. Oaths are like slavery if they remove the free will of the person giving it.

And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor.

[Quoth the raven,]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is officially the funniest thread going. 

It sure is.  I find it ridiculous that people would even try to defend Jon Snow.  It was evident that he committed treason.  I agree with the Op, Marsh was right to terminate Jon.

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is officially the funniest thread going. 

Yep, the ferocity of Bolton defenders never ceases to amaze me. (And, no, I am not referring to you.  I know you to be a Jon defender.)

[kissdbyfire]

40 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Yep, the ferocity of Bolton defenders never ceases to amaze me. (And, no, I am not referring to you.  I know you to be a Jon defender.)

Innit? Pretty scary if you ask me. And I honestly do not give a flying fuck if Jon is a treasonous oathbreaker, I agree w/ every single decision he made.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." << or hide behind vows and orders

 

[John Courage]

On 6/23/2017 at 11:00 PM, Crashingwater said:

1. Jon wasn't a deserter, he was acting on the orders of a superior officer. It doesn't matter what assumptions some may have of Jon, because he was telling the truth, and most of his NW brother's believed him.

2. Hardhome was a toss up. I understand what Jon intended to do, and it makes sense, deny the army of the dead more troops, and add more troops to the realm's of men. I also understand the opposition to the mission. However, at this point Jon is LC and it's his decision.

3. Slynt was a snake in the grass and Jon knew it. He had to kill Slynt to serve as an example to the other conspirators that insubordination to the LC meant death. However, Mance should have died too. There was no reason to believe he would be anything other than a threat to the NW. Jon should have ordered his exectution. 

4. UNLESS, Jon was privy to a plan where the rightful King and his advisers needed Mance to rescue fArya in order to use her to rally the North against the Boltons, who were viewed by most of the North as unlawful usurpers of Stark rule. What better way to bring unity and order to the North than by assisting the rightful King of the Seven Kingdoms in rescuing one of the last surviving Stark children. Jon wasn't on board with rescuing fArya just for personal reasons, there was a political implication behind the operation.

5. There is nothing in the NW vows that says the NW has to remain neutral in any political upheaval. The Boltons were viewed by most of the North as unpopular, cruel, backstabbing, treasonous, usurpers. If you wanted to unite the North, the best thing you could do would be to fight the Boltons. The only reason the North hadn't fought the Boltons yet was because the Boltons retained much of their strength, they were reinforced by the Freys, and the threat of the Lannisters and Tyrells marching north to support them, however unlikely that may have been. However, as we later find out, plans were already in motion for the North to deal with the Boltons and the Freys. Jon marching south to deal with what them himself would have just helped in uniting the North, not hampered it. And the only way for sure that Jon would have broken his vows would have been if after defeating the Boltons, he named himself Lord of Winterfell. As it stands, Jon never broke his vows.

This.

[Bowen Marsh]

6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon got away with too much.  He came in with good sword skills and that may be the reason why he got favored treatment from the officers except Thorne.  I have to put some of the blame on Samwell for getting Jon elected.  Jon was a poor choice for any position of power and authority.  He could have been ok as a ranger but no way he should have been commander.  

 

Of course you need to send a raven to Roose.  You need to warn him of the wildlings coming to attack.  Put all of the blame on Jon and let him know that the watch took care of its internal problems.  

Why the giant went apeshit is an unknown.  It may have something to do with Val.  It doesn't matter.  If he doesn't calm the remaining knights will take care of him.  He's not your problem so don't make him your problem.

Burn.  You don't want that one coming back for you.  Burn.

It's not your responsibility to write the king.  Elect a new commander and let him write the letter.

The giant had sword cuts but Ser Patrek is not stupid enough to take on a giant on his own.  Either the giant started it and the knight was just defending himself or the knights ganged up on Wun wun.  Why Stannis' men would attack wun is unknown.  We will definitely know the reason in tWoW. 

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The giant had sword cuts but Ser Patrek is not stupid enough to take on a giant on his own.  Either the giant started it and the knight was just defending himself or the knights ganged up on Wun wun.  Why Stannis' men would attack wun is unknown.  We will definitely know the reason in tWoW. 

The moron was trying to steal Val to "prove his worth" and got what he deserved. 

[The Fattest Leech]

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon got away with too much.  He came in with good sword skills and that may be the reason why he got favored treatment from the officers except Thorne.  I have to put some of the blame on Samwell for getting Jon elected.  Jon was a poor choice for any position of power and authority.  He could have been ok as a ranger but no way he should have been commander.  

 

Of course you need to send a raven to Roose.  You need to warn him of the wildlings coming to attack.  Put all of the blame on Jon and let him know that the watch took care of its internal problems.  

Why the giant went apeshit is an unknown.  It may have something to do with Val.  It doesn't matter.  If he doesn't calm the remaining knights will take care of him.  He's not your problem so don't make him your problem.

Burn.  You don't want that one coming back for you.  Burn.

It's not your responsibility to write the king.  Elect a new commander and let him write the letter.

 

2 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The giant had sword cuts but Ser Patrek is not stupid enough to take on a giant on his own.  Either the giant started it and the knight was just defending himself or the knights ganged up on Wun wun.  Why Stannis' men would attack wun is unknown.  We will definitely know the reason in tWoW. 

Yes, Ser Patrek was an idiot that provoked Wun Wun, and Patrek gave warning he would do his a chapter or two before. 

And you both do know Ser Patrek was named and killed as a bet to a real life friend of George's, right? George wrote Patrek in just to be killed. 

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Yes, Ser Patrek was an idiot that provoked Wun Wun, and Patrek gave warning he would do his a chapter or two before. 

And you both do know Ser Patrek was named and killed as a bet to a real life friend of George's, right? George wrote Patrek in just to be killed. 

Oh, that's a great fun-fact!

[The Commentator]

23 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I don't think we are meant to be uncritical of Jon Snow.  He had a job to do.  He swore to do that job according to the rules they have been given.  He chose instead to put personal concerns ahead of those duties and endangered his sworn brothers.  He went even beyond that and endangered the kingdom. 

Yes

 

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The moron was trying to steal Val to "prove his worth" and got what he deserved. 

Maybe so.  Val was not worth dying for.  

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

Yes

 

Maybe so.  Val was not worth dying for.  

In your opinion but clearly ser Patrek had a different view on the subject.