Barbrey Dustin

Jon was rightfully "terminated" by the Watch

233 posts in this topic

37 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It was actually Jon Snow who made the bad decision to start a fight with the Boltons over his sister.  Or the girl he thought was his sister.  Jon's behavior was the one which will lead to the destruction of the watch.  

It might objectivly be a bad decision but heck man the cruelest and vilest man in the world was having his way with his sister you cant blame him bro.

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32 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Let me ask you this.  Mance Rayder asked for women to accompany him when Jon sent him on the mission.  Jon even sent his own man, a man of the Watch, to find the girls from Mole's Town and bring them to Mance.  They were planning to infiltrate Winterfell.  Was Jon planning to rescue Arya and soon after return her to Ramsay?  I don't think so.  Jon was willing to do what it takes to get Arya away from the Boltons even if it meant sacrificing the security of the wall.  

Why do you think Ramsay threatened the lord commander?  Because that same lord commander sent his operatives inside Winterfell, murdered Bolton servants, and took away a Bolton bride.  That is an act of war.

Hmmm. Not quite, but I'll have to answer later because of work. 

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Posted (edited)

Jon Snow had no right whatsoever to offer 'Arya Stark' protection at Castle Black. She is Ramsay Bolton's wife. He decides where she lives, not the Night's Watch. A wife in Westeros doesn't have the right leave her lord husband without his consent or permission.

Even if Jon's people - Mance or anyone - had taken in 'Arya' after meeting her on the road they would still have been forced to return her to Ramsay if he had demanded that. And that's what he does in the Pink Letter, too. He offers Jon the chance to meet his demands or suffer the consequences.

Alys Karstark is a completely different matter. She isn't the wife of anyone yet nor are Arnolf or Cregan Karstark her lawful guardians. She has still some choices. 'Arya' does not. She is Ramsay's now until the man dies. Which he hopefully will do soon.

Jon is responsible for the actions of Mance and his women even if he didn't command them what they did. Those are the rules of the society he lives in. He understands that. That's why he knows he has now no other chance but to bring the war to Ramsay. He cannot wiggle out of that. He has to win or die. And he dies.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Posted (edited)

Jon did not "send" Mance. Mel did. Jon allowed it to happen. Not an impartial decision, and not his best one, but blaming the whole thing on him and even blaming him for Mance not being executed is ridiculous. Saying it justified murdering him is beyond ridiculous.

According to Mel, "Arya" had already left Ramsay and was on her way north so the plan was not to invade Winterfell but to intercept her and see that she got to the Wall safely. That is not an act of war. Threatening to attack an entire organization whose only job is to keep your stupid butt from being annihilated by ice zombies, just because one of them may have been involved in something that pissed you off is not even an act of war. Infiltrating Winterfell was an improvised thing when they didn't run into "Arya" between there and the Wall.

The only sane thing for Jon to do after receiving that letter was to go to Ramsay so that Ramsay didn't come north and destroy the world's only defense against the Others. He didn't order anyone to go with him, because it wasn't Watch business. He was going to handle it personally, for the sake of the Watch. He was acting in that circumstance exactly as a Lord Commander should have.

Bowen Marsh was more concerned about what the Iron Throne would think and do than about saving the realms of men (from the NW vows, if you will recall) from the Others. This is set up in previous books when he's unhappy about Stannis being around, when he's upset about the Wildlings coming through the Wall even when he knows about wights. What Bowen did was attempt murder. If he'd been in the right he wouldn't have waited for the cover of darkness and a diversion that kept everyone from seeing what he was doing. He is not justified in breaking his own vows just because he thought his Lord Commander was making bad decisions.

The entire idea that Jon's missteps or rule-breaking or whatever else you want to call them somehow makes it okay for men under his command to assassinate him in such a cowardly fashion is reprehensible. Bowen and his men are only slightly better than those who mutinied at Craster's Keep. It wasn't "for the Watch" it was for Bowen and his co-conspirators...not for material gain, but for political safety. He was afraid of retribution from the south, which shows that he still doesn't understand the threat from the north. He was not filled with any kind of righteous indignation. He was a coward, plain and simple.

@Coolbeard the Exile right on! The one man who was best to protect the entire world against the Others and people are fine with him being shanked in the dark. *shaking my head*

As for comparisons to Aerys, no. Ramsay threatening the entire Watch is an Aerys-like thing. We're talking crazy here. Jon has his faults but he's not insane. Nor would Bowen Marsh ever have the guts to kill someone wearing a crown, even to save the lives of millions, in fact he's just done the opposite. It's a mirror image. Bowen Marsh has orchestrated the death of (probably) Rhaegar Targaryen's son and endangered the lives of everyone on earth. Jaime's act was heroic. Bowen's was cowardly. And Jaime himself, if he were acquainted with the details, would be the first to disagree with the idea that Jon's assassination was anything like his killing Aerys.

ETA: And I don't even like Jon that much!

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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16 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

I feel like that the termination of Jon Snow by Bowen Marsh was appropriate.  The Lord Commander served for life so the only way to remove a crazy leader like Jon from power is to kill him.  That is their way of firing an unfit, incompetent,  treasonous commander.  It's been said before but I will repeat it here.  

Ramsay Bolton gave Jon the Pink Letter.  Bowen Marsh gave Jon the Pink Slip.  

  1. Jon was already a known deserter.
  2. He started making foolish decisions near the end.  The Hardhome mission was dumb and only wastes resources.
  3. The execution of Janos Slynt became unjust when Jon spared Mance Rayder, a man who has committed more crimes against the Watch and against the kingdom than Slynt has done.  Mormont showed mercy to Jon for desertion.  Jon could have shown mercy to Janos Slynt's initial insubordination.
  4. Sending Mance and the spearwives to rescue his sister, or what he thought was his sister, is an attack on a noble house of the realm.  Jon's agents murdered Bolton servants while enjoying Bolton hospitality and shelter.  This is little different from what the crows did to Craster and his family.
  5. Jon's announced plans to attack the Boltons is the last straw for any honest man of the Watch.  It violated the oaths of the watch and Jon knew it.  Instead of helping unite the north, Jon's actions made unity less likely to happen.

To sum up, I support Bowen Marsh and his decision to end Jon's appointment.  

Good for you 

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Snip

Kudos to you that you try, but I am sort of wondering what motivates you to argue with people who refuses to use logic nor any kind of perspective other than "my biased position is truth because I say so and at any time someone uses real arguments and actually try to make up consistant rules, I back down to the classical "its just your opinion and you are the one who is biased" because I don´t have any real arguments but emotions".

How do you stand the amount of idiocy thrown your way? I am curious. Because I find myself losing my temper when I run into stupidity, bias and ill faith.

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6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Jon did not "send" Mance. Mel did. Jon allowed it to happen. Not an impartial decision, and not his best one, but blaming the whole thing on him and even blaming him for Mance not being executed is ridiculous. Saying it justified murdering him is beyond ridiculous.

According to Mel, "Arya" had already left Ramsay and was on her way north so the plan was not to invade Winterfell but to intercept her and see that she got to the Wall safely. That is not an act of war. Threatening to attack an entire organization whose only job is to keep your stupid butt from being annihilated by ice zombies, just because one of them may have been involved in something that pissed you off is not even an act of war. Infiltrating Winterfell was an improvised thing when they didn't run into "Arya" between there and the Wall.

The only sane thing for Jon to do after receiving that letter was to go to Ramsay so that Ramsay didn't come north and destroy the world's only defense against the Others. He didn't order anyone to go with him, because it wasn't Watch business. He was going to handle it personally, for the sake of the Watch. He was acting in that circumstance exactly as a Lord Commander should have.

Bowen Marsh was more concerned about what the Iron Throne would think and do than about saving the realms of men (from the NW vows, if you will recall) from the Others. This is set up in previous books when he's unhappy about Stannis being around, when he's upset about the Wildlings coming through the Wall even when he knows about wights. What Bowen did was attempt murder. If he'd been in the right he wouldn't have waited for the cover of darkness and a diversion that kept everyone from seeing what he was doing. He is not justified in breaking his own vows just because he thought his Lord Commander was making bad decisions.

The entire idea that Jon's missteps or rule-breaking or whatever else you want to call them somehow makes it okay for men under his command to assassinate him in such a cowardly fashion is reprehensible. Bowen and his men are only slightly better than those who mutinied at Craster's Keep. It wasn't "for the Watch" it was for Bowen and his co-conspirators...not for material gain, but for political safety. He was afraid of retribution from the south, which shows that he still doesn't understand the threat from the north. He was not filled with any kind of righteous indignation. He was a coward, plain and simple.

@Coolbeard the Exile right on! The one man who was best to protect the entire world against the Others and people are fine with him being shanked in the dark. *shaking my head*

As for comparisons to Aerys, no. Ramsay threatening the entire Watch is an Aerys-like thing. We're talking crazy here. Jon has his faults but he's not insane. Nor would Bowen Marsh ever have the guts to kill someone wearing a crown, even to save the lives of millions, in fact he's just done the opposite. It's a mirror image. Bowen Marsh has orchestrated the death of (probably) Rhaegar Targaryen's son and endangered the lives of everyone on earth. Jaime's act was heroic. Bowen's was cowardly. And Jaime himself, if he were acquainted with the details, would be the first to disagree with the idea that Jon's assassination was anything like his killing Aerys.

ETA: And I don't even like Jon that much!

Jon did more than allow it to happen.  He used the wildling baby to coerce Mance to do what he wanted.  He let Mance believe he had Dalla's boy and used that as his tool to motivate him to go on this mission.  He sent his brothers to whore's town to pick up the women that Mance specifically asked for. 

Jon did more than agree to the plan.  He was very much a party to the plan and he had the final decision.  He was guilty for whatever Mance did on his behalf. 

Chapter 35 from ADWD

"A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage.  On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the north.  "Young ones, and pretty," Mance had said.  The unburnt king supplies some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole's Town.  It seemed like madness now.  He might have done better to strike down Mance the moment he revealed himself.  Jon had a certain grudging admiration for the king-beyond-the-wall, but the man was an oathbreaker and a turncloak.  He had even less trust in Melisandre.  Yet here he was, pinning his hopes on them.  All to save my sister.  But the men of the Night's Watch have no sisters.

Below, Jon's thoughts clearly show that he knew perfectly it was wrong to interfere with Bolton's affairs.

Chapter 28 from ADWD

"There is no way I can help her.  I put all kin aside when I said my words.  If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. 

Jon was afraid for Arya, that she might try to stick Ramsay with a sword and suffer the consequences. 

It's plain to me that Jon did more than agree to that mission.  He sent Mance on that mission.  Mel only made the suggestion.  Jon must also be held accountable because he got Edd mixed up in his personal affairs.  Edd became a party to treason because of Jon.

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6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Jon did not "send" Mance. Mel did. Jon allowed it to happen. Not an impartial decision, and not his best one, but blaming the whole thing on him and even blaming him for Mance not being executed is ridiculous. Saying it justified murdering him is beyond ridiculous.

Well, let's look at the text, shall we?

Quote

“As you wish. I have a gift for you, Lord Snow.”The king [Stannis] waved a hand at Rattleshirt. “Him.”
Lady Melisandre smiled. “You did say you wanted men, Lord Snow. I believe our Lord of Bones still qualifies."

[...]

“I’ll range for you, bastard,” Rattleshirt declared. “I’ll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs, as you prefer. I’ll even fight for you. Just don’t ask me to wear your cloak.”

Mance is Jon's man. Stannis gives him to Jon, he is no longer under Stannis' jurisdiction or authority.

This is confirmed and reinforced later:

Quote

“Your Grace, I know where you might find more men. Give me the wildlings, and I will gladly tell you where and how.”
I gave you Rattleshirt. Be content with him.
“I want them all.”

We know that Mance cannot leave Castle Black without Jon's leave:

Quote

“The girl,” she said. “A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow’s sister.” Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. “I have seen her in my flames, but only once. We must win the lord commander’s trust, and the only way to do that is to save her.”
“Me save her, you mean? The Lord o’ Bones?” He laughed. “No one ever trusted Rattleshirt but fools. Snow’s not that. If his sister needs saving, he’ll send his crows. I would.”
“He is not you. He made his vows and means to live by them. The Night’s Watch takes no part. But you are not Night’s Watch. You can do what he cannot.”
If your stiff-necked lord commander will allow it. [...]"

And Jon reinforces this himself again in the very same chapter:

Quote

“I think not. You do not know this creature. Rattleshirt could wash his hands a hundred times a day and he’d still have blood beneath his nails. He’d be more like to rape and murder Arya than to save her. No. If this was what you have seen in your fires, my lady, you must have ashes in your eyes. If he tries to leave Castle Black without my leave, I’ll take his head off myself.

The Mel chapter breaks off before Mel and Mance inform Jon about their plans but it is quite clear he gave his consent thereafter. Else Mance would have gone nowhere. And the spearwives would also not have been given leave to go anywhere with Mance. They were under Jon's jurisdiction, too, as per Stannis' orders when he left.

As Lord Commander of the Night's Watch it would be fallen to Jon to punish Mance for his crimes. He chose to make an exception there, following his own twisted reasoning - that also had convinced Stannis earlier to spare Mance - that the laws end at the Wall. If that were true then it would not be desertion to, well, desert beyond the Wall. By what right did Eddard execute Gared (who deserted beyond the Wall)? By what right did Arya murder Dareon (who deserted in Braavos where the laws of the Seven Kingdoms most definitely don't apply)?

This whole reasoning also helps Jon to get away with the fact that he broke his vow beyond the Wall. That is convenient.

And I'm not saying it would have been a good idea to kill Mance. He knows stuff and is a great asset. But the way they did is just not very coherent or convincing. It goes against the traditions of the Watch and the laws and customs of the Seven Kingdoms. Especially the Northmen want to see oathbreakers and turncloaks like Mance dead. They even kill their own children if they shame the Watch.

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

According to Mel, "Arya" had already left Ramsay and was on her way north so the plan was not to invade Winterfell but to intercept her and see that she got to the Wall safely.

If that had been the plan then why did Mance go to Winterfell? Why did he not wait in the Long Lake region? Most likely because he realized Melisandre had had a vision of the future and he concluded that he had to help the girl to make it true. For all we know he and his spearwives even had news that Arya was still in Winterfell when they decided to go there.

Even if the idea that Mance would never actually go to Winterfell did never cross Jon's mind - which is ridiculous to assume - he would still be guilty by association to allow Mance to go. The Night's Watch takes no part. Taking no part doesn't mean to harbor or offer help to the wife of Lord Ramsay Bolton. That is treason, plain and simple.

40 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Kudos to you that you try, but I am sort of wondering what motivates you to argue with people who refuses to use logic nor any kind of perspective other than "my biased position is truth because I say so and at any time someone uses real arguments and actually try to make up consistant rules, I back down to the classical "its just your opinion and you are the one who is biased" because I don´t have any real arguments but emotions".

Well, I guess I like to watch people make silly arguments. There is a certain pleasure you can draw from that. And especially this kind of discussion where emotions cause people to defend a fictional character's motivation brings forth this kind of thing. 

It is really very odd that people have to see a character as the white knight even in instances where he clearly isn't. In settings and plots that were deliberately created by the author to have him made impossible choices and eventually fail.

I find that an interesting topic and it is interesting to discuss the implications. If it doesn't end up in the kind of discussion we are having now it can actually help to shed light on some of unknown parts.

40 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

How do you stand the amount of idiocy thrown your way? I am curious. Because I find myself losing my temper when I run into stupidity, bias and ill faith.

If it is too much I do, too.

8 minutes ago, Night Train to Kathmandu said:

Chapter 35 from ADWD

"A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage.  On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the north.  "Young ones, and pretty," Mance had said.  The unburnt king supplies some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole's Town.  It seemed like madness now.  He might have done better to strike down Mance the moment he revealed himself.  Jon had a certain grudging admiration for the king-beyond-the-wall, but the man was an oathbreaker and a turncloak.  He had even less trust in Melisandre.  Yet here he was, pinning his hopes on them.  All to save my sister.  But the men of the Night's Watch have no sisters.

Below, Jon's thoughts clearly show that he knew perfectly it was wrong to interfere with Bolton's affairs.

Thanks for that quote.

It is really fun to see people dance around that.

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Just now, Night Train to Kathmandu said:

Jon did more than allow it to happen.  He used the wildling baby to coerce Mance to do what he wanted.  He let Mance believe he had Dalla's boy and used that as his tool to motivate him to go on this mission.  He sent his brothers to whore's town to pick up the women that Mance specifically asked for. 

Jon did more than agree to the plan.  He was very much a party to the plan and he had the final decision.  He was guilty for whatever Mance did on his behalf. 

Chapter 35 from ADWD

"A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage.  On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the north.  "Young ones, and pretty," Mance had said.  The unburnt king supplies some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole's Town.  It seemed like madness now.  He might have done better to strike down Mance the moment he revealed himself.  Jon had a certain grudging admiration for the king-beyond-the-wall, but the man was an oathbreaker and a turncloak.  He had even less trust in Melisandre.  Yet here he was, pinning his hopes on them.  All to save my sister.  But the men of the Night's Watch have no sisters.

Below, Jon's thoughts clearly show that he knew perfectly it was wrong to interfere with Bolton's affairs.

Chapter 28 from ADWD

"There is no way I can help her.  I put all kin aside when I said my words.  If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. 

Jon was afraid for Arya, that she might try to stick Ramsay with a sword and suffer the consequences. 

It's plain to me that Jon did more than agree to that mission.  He sent Mance on that mission.  Mel only made the suggestion.  Jon must also be held accountable because he got Edd mixed up in his personal affairs.  Edd became a party to treason because of Jon.

Wrong. Mel and Mance are already planning the rescue mission even before Mel reveals to Jon that "Rattleshirt" is Mance. 

ADwD, Melisandre

“Melisandre nodded solemnly, as if she had taken his words to heart, but this Weeper did not matter. None of his free folk mattered. They were a lost people, a doomed people, destined to vanish from the earth, as the children of the forest had vanished. Those were not words he would wish to hear, though, and she could not risk losing him, not now. “How well do you know the north?”
He slipped his blade away. “As well as any raider. Some parts more than others. There’s a lot of north. Why?”
“The girl,” she said. “A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow’s sister.” Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. “I have seen her in my flames, but only once. We must win the lord commander’s trust, and the only way to do that is to save her.”
“Me save her, you mean? The Lord o’ Bones?” He laughed. “No one ever trusted Rattleshirt but fools. Snow’s not that. If his sister needs saving, he’ll send his crows. I would.”
“He is not you. He made his vows and means to live by them. The Night’s Watch takes no part. But you are not Night’s Watch. You can do what he cannot.”
“If your stiff-necked lord commander will allow it. Did your fires show you where to find this girl?”
“I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever.”
“Long Lake. What else did you see around this girl?”
“Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail.”
He frowned. “That will make it difficult. She was coming north, you said. Was the lake to her east or to her west?”
Melisandre closed her eyes, remembering. “West.”
“She is not coming up the kingsroad, then. Clever girl. There are fewer watchers on the other side, and more cover. And some hidey-holes I have used myself from time—” He broke off at the sound of a warhorn and rose swiftly to his feet. All over Castle Black, Melisandre knew, the same sudden hush had fallen, and every man and boy turned toward the Wall, listening, waiting. One long blast of the horn meant rangers returning, but two …”

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wrong. Mel and Mance are already planning the rescue mission even before Mel reveals to Jon that "Rattleshirt" is Mance. 

ADwD, Melisandre

“Melisandre nodded solemnly, as if she had taken his words to heart, but this Weeper did not matter. None of his free folk mattered. They were a lost people, a doomed people, destined to vanish from the earth, as the children of the forest had vanished. Those were not words he would wish to hear, though, and she could not risk losing him, not now. “How well do you know the north?”
He slipped his blade away. “As well as any raider. Some parts more than others. There’s a lot of north. Why?”
“The girl,” she said. “A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow’s sister.” Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. “I have seen her in my flames, but only once. We must win the lord commander’s trust, and the only way to do that is to save her.”
“Me save her, you mean? The Lord o’ Bones?” He laughed. “No one ever trusted Rattleshirt but fools. Snow’s not that. If his sister needs saving, he’ll send his crows. I would.”
“He is not you. He made his vows and means to live by them. The Night’s Watch takes no part. But you are not Night’s Watch. You can do what he cannot.”
“If your stiff-necked lord commander will allow it. Did your fires show you where to find this girl?”
“I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever.”
“Long Lake. What else did you see around this girl?”
“Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail.”
He frowned. “That will make it difficult. She was coming north, you said. Was the lake to her east or to her west?”
Melisandre closed her eyes, remembering. “West.”
“She is not coming up the kingsroad, then. Clever girl. There are fewer watchers on the other side, and more cover. And some hidey-holes I have used myself from time—” He broke off at the sound of a warhorn and rose swiftly to his feet. All over Castle Black, Melisandre knew, the same sudden hush had fallen, and every man and boy turned toward the Wall, listening, waiting. One long blast of the horn meant rangers returning, but two …”

 

 

 

Mel was only planning her sales pitch.  Mance was only trying to get as much details out of Mel as possible.  Those two could not and would not do this mission without Jon Snow's consent.  And consent he not only gave, he was a part of it.  The decision was his to proceed or not proceed.  Was it Mel who sent Dolorous Edd to Mole's Town?  Nope.  It was under Jon's orders. 

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1 minute ago, Night Train to Kathmandu said:

Mel was only planning her sales pitch.  Mance was only trying to get as much details out of Mel as possible.  Those two could not and would not do this mission without Jon Snow's consent.  And consent he not only gave, he was a part of it.  The decision was his to proceed or not proceed.  Was it Mel who sent Dolorous Edd to Mole's Town?  Nope.  It was under Jon's orders. 

I agree they wouldn't have it done w/o Jon's consent but that is besides the point. My reply was addressing your comment that Jon twisted Mance's arm into going on the rescue mission and that's simply not true. 

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wrong. Mel and Mance are already planning the rescue mission even before Mel reveals to Jon that "Rattleshirt" is Mance.

See my post above. They are also making it clear that they need Jon's permission for all that. 'Rattleshirt' is Jon's man, per King Stannis' orders, and he decides where he goes, not Melisandre. Not to mention that it is obvious that they want Jon to be in on the plot. The entire point of this thing is to gain Jon's trust by saving his sister. But they don't want to surprise him. They want to inform him of Mel's visions first, to stress the enormity of her powers, and then have Mance go to save Arya.

It only works if Jon is in on the plan. And he himself confirms that he was.

But quite honestly - how on earth did you think pointing out that Mel and Mance were making plans before they informed Jon about them contributes anything to this debate? The important thing is that he did know and approved of the plan. He made the decision. Mance and Mel just made suggestions.

Jon is guilty in this entire thing. He threw the first stone.

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I agree they wouldn't have it done w/o Jon's consent but that is besides the point. My reply was addressing your comment that Jon twisted Mance's arm into going on the rescue mission and that's simply not true. 

Mel, Stannis, and Jon certainly forced Mance into doing their bidding. Mel herself stresses that they hold his child in her chapter. Nothing indicates that Jon corrected that error.

There are hints that Mance wants to work with Mel, Stannis, and Jon but we don't know his thoughts. He may still hold quite a few grudges against them. But the fact that his son is a hostage clearly would influence his actions as long as we assume he cares about the child.

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15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree they wouldn't have it done w/o Jon's consent but that is besides the point. My reply was addressing your comment that Jon twisted Mance's arm into going on the rescue mission and that's simply not true. 

"But he will not betray you.  We hold his son, remember."

The implication is clear.  Mel wanted to send Mance a subtle hint.  Things could go badly for his son if he failed to cooperate and betray Jon.  Jon of course knows Mance's son has been sent away but he let Mel and Mance think otherwise.  So yeah, he was using the baby as his leverage to keep Mance in line. 

Was Mance really given a choice?  Not really. 

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Stab Jon vs. Warn Ramsay

This is an oft debated question.  What are the risks of letting Jon go and then sending a warning to the Boltons?  The biggest risk to me is the message may not get there in time or not at all.  You have to hope the Jon army never make it back or you end up like Slynt.

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Posted (edited)

I was always surprised by how many of the very thoughtful posters on here had trouble with this one.    It should be possible to say both: that you root for Jon and would have sided with him..... AND you should be able to see how his removal made sense given the situation he got himself into.  He was taking a chance rolling the dice to forge a new world and he rolled snake eyes.  It happens.  It doesn't mean I was thrilled to see it.  

It's like how you didn't want to see Mace Windu die in star wars but you understood it as part of the dangerous game he was playing----There was no sure way for Mace to end the menace of Darth Sideous in a legal, "civilized" manner.   So he had to just try to strike down the emperor (like the guys had to take Jon down rudely).  The threat to the republic was too great to delay any longer..... so he struck and forced Anakin to rise up in defense of Sideous.   (I wonder what entity will be forced into action to do something about Jon's impending demise.  If any.)  

And this is not to say Jon chose the dark side as in Eeee- vil.  He chose to be equal to the task of fighting evil by bringing about massive scary changes, relying on unprecedented levels of trust, and walking the shadowy magical mystery path, all of which freaked other people out.  Unfortunately.  But  also Understandably.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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21 minutes ago, Night Train to Kathmandu said:

"But he will not betray you.  We hold his son, remember."

The implication is clear.  Mel wanted to send Mance a subtle hint.  Things could go badly for his son if he failed to cooperate and betray Jon.  Jon of course knows Mance's son has been sent away but he let Mel and Mance think otherwise.  So yeah, he was using the baby as his leverage to keep Mance in line. 

Was Mance really given a choice?  Not really. 

Val and the other spearwives/wetnurses know that Mance's baby was switched, and some of them had contact with Mance this whole time, so the chance that Mance does not know about the switch is very low to impossible. Mance went on his own to Winterfell and we know he is not wearing the ruby when he gets there. Mance does not fear Melisandre.. And Jon has already stated that he does not trust Mel. That said, I have no doubt that Mel is trying to sway the situation against Jon. She admits twice in the story that she messes up her interpretations, and she says that the visions are never full because they are only half revealed, half concealed, which means a lot of room for multiple errors.

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I do think Jon was party to sending Mance off to rescue whom he thought was Arya. He condoned it and supported it. But even in that case, I still completely support his choice. Jon knows Arya would be completely unwilling to marry Ramsay. He knows Ramsay is a sadist. It was morally the right thing to do.

It also had little or nothing to do with what Bowen Marsh did. Marsh only just learned about Mance possibly being alive and the source of that information is dubious at best after they watched him burn. Marsh killed Jon because

1) Stannis is apparently dead, the Boltons are angry, and politically Jon is a lot weaker

2) He’s sending the Watch on a suicide mission commanded by its long-time enemy Tormund Giantsbane

3) Jon himself rides south to attack the Lord of Winterfell with an army of wildlings.

I can see where Bowen Marsh is coming from. But I have no problem with his decisions. There is no point following a stupid and evil law. All through ADWD Jon struggles with the balance of what he finds in his heart to be noble while also acting in accordance to his vows as a nights-watchman.

I think his support of Stannis (beyond the basics), being party to rescuing Arya, and declaring his intent to attack Ramsay were all in breach of his vows. But they are all decisions I consider to be morally good which imo should take precedence.

 

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26 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

I was always surprised by how many of the very thoughtful posters on here had trouble with this one.    It should be possible to say both: that you root for Jon and would have sided with him..... AND you should be able to see how his removal made sense given the situation he got himself into.  He was taking a chance rolling the dice to forge a new world and he rolled snake eyes.  It happens.  It doesn't mean I was thrilled to see it.  

It's like how you didn't want to see Mace Windu die in star wars but you understood it as part of the dangerous game he was playing----There was no sure way for Mace to end the menace of Darth Sideous in a legal, "civilized" manner.   So he had to just try to strike down the emperor (like the guys had to take Jon down rudely).  The threat to the republic was too great to delay any longer..... so he struck and forced Anakin to rise up in defense of Sideous.   (I wonder what entity will be forced into action to do something about Jon's impending demise.  If any.)  

And this is not to say Jon chose the dark side as in Eeee- vil.  He chose to be equal to the task of fighting evil by bringing about massive scary changes, relying on unprecedented levels of trust, and walking the shadowy magical mystery path, all of which freaked other people out.  Unfortunately.  But  also Understandably.

It was more than that.  Jon tore apart the watch just when it had started to unite against the coming threat.  He had a choice and one of those was the right choice.  He should have chosen to leave the Boltons alone and let Arya deal with her problems on her own. 

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2 minutes ago, Makk said:

I do think Jon was party to sending Mance off to rescue whom he thought was Arya. He condoned it and supported it. But even in that case, I still completely support his choice. Jon knows Arya would be completely unwilling to marry Ramsay. He knows Ramsay is a sadist. It was morally the right thing to do.

It also had little or nothing to do with what Bowen Marsh did. Marsh only just learned about Mance possibly being alive and the source of that information is dubious at best after they watched him burn. Marsh killed Jon because

1) Stannis is apparently dead, the Boltons are angry, and politically Jon is a lot weaker

2) He’s sending the Watch on a suicide mission commanded by its long-time enemy Tormund Giantsbane

3) Jon himself rides south to attack the Lord of Winterfell with an army of wildlings.

I can see where Bowen Marsh is coming from. But I have no problem with his decisions. There is no point following a stupid and evil law. All through ADWD Jon struggles with the balance of what he finds in his heart to be noble while also acting in accordance to his vows as a nights-watchman.

I think his support of Stannis (beyond the basics), being party to rescuing Arya, and declaring his intent to attack Ramsay were all in breach of his vows. But they are all decisions I consider to be morally good which imo should take precedence.

 

Jon admitted it.  He admitted letting Mance live and making him rescue his sister.

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48 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Stab Jon vs. Warn Ramsay

This is an oft debated question.  What are the risks of letting Jon go and then sending a warning to the Boltons?  The biggest risk to me is the message may not get there in time or not at all.  You have to hope the Jon army never make it back or you end up like Slynt.

Too risky.  Just stab Jon.  The wildlings became an enemy of the watch the moment they chose to follow Jon's plan to attack Winterfell.  Wildlings attacking the people of the north violates what they agreed to do to behave and obey the laws as part of the deal to let them enter the north. 

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