Jump to content

What was special about Syrio Forel?


Moiraine Sedai

Recommended Posts

You are the Sealord with powerful political enemies.  What do you fear the most?  A faceless assassin.  You hire an observant bodyguard but not the best skilled available.   Could it be because Syrio can see through the faceless men's disguise?  I think so.

B)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

You are the Sealord with powerful political enemies.  What do you fear the most?  A faceless assassin.  You hire an observant bodyguard but not the best skilled available.   Could it be because Syrio can see through the faceless men's disguise?  I think so.

B)

It is about honesty. He is honest. That is why he refused to blow smoke up the sealords ass when discussing the cat. The sealord had his choice of tons of skilled fighters to be the first sword, but honesty is more important. The sealord needs good counsel, not lickspittle yes men. The opposite of that is Cersei, and look what kind of mess she got into 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It is about honesty. He is honest. That is why he refused to blow smoke up the sealords ass when discussing the cat. The sealord had his choice of tons of skilled fighters to be the first sword, but honesty is more important. The sealord needs good counsel, not lickspittle yes men. The opposite of that is Cersei, and look what kind of mess she got into 

I don't think that's entirely accurate; I don't think it was about the others lying to the Sealord, but that they genuinely thought the cat was some exotic creature. 

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, you can't see through a faceless men's disguise. They literally wear another person's face 

Not sure how true this really is; when Jaqen changes his face, it's clearly magic. I'm certain it's mentioned that truly observant people can see through a glamour. I'm sure this is more common than the face transplant that Arya gets, though I'm pretty sure she thinks her face feels the same afterwards anyway, so it's possible one can see though the face transplant, too. Also, at least in training (and they probably wouldn't send a trainee assassin to kill the Sealord) they use silly mummer's tricks to disguise themselves; it's possible that this isn't only done in training, though. Why would they teach something that is never used?

I think it's possible that the Sealord wanted someone observant enough to see through a Faceless Man's disguise. But it's probably more likely that he wanted someone observant enough to actually see the threats against him before the swords are drawn. If someone can't tell that the cat is just a cat, are they going to be able to see a threat hidden in a compliment?

As Barristan once brooded upon, "Threats came from everywhere and nowhere, at any time of day or night. No trumpets announced the foe: vassals, servants, friends, brothers, sons, even wives, any of them might have knives concealed beneath their cloaks and murder hidden in their hearts. For every hour of fighting, a Kingsguard knight spent ten thousand hours watching, waiting, standing silent in the shadows." No point in all that watching and waiting if you can't see anything beyond the surface.

Though, to be honest, I'm not sure if Syrio even had any particular talent at observation. He seemed to think that Arya was a boy; as in, what he expected, not what he was actually seeing, so the exact opposite of what he supposedly did with the Sealord and his cat. But it's possible he was just trying to irk her, or perhaps it simply didn't matter to him. He certainly noticed that it was strange for Lannister men to come and collect Arya, whereas Arya herself would've gone along without thinking about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't think that's entirely accurate; I don't think it was about the others lying to the Sealord, but that they genuinely thought the cat was some exotic creature. 

Are you familiar with "The Emperor's new clothes" by Hans Christian Andersen?

44 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Not sure how true this really is; when Jaqen changes his face, it's clearly magic. I'm certain it's mentioned that truly observant people can see through a glamour. I'm sure this is more common than the face transplant that Arya gets, though I'm pretty sure she thinks her face feels the same afterwards anyway, so it's possible one can see though the face transplant, too. Also, at least in training (and they probably wouldn't send a trainee assassin to kill the Sealord) they use silly mummer's tricks to disguise themselves; it's possible that this isn't only done in training, though. Why would they teach something that is never used?

They teach the non-magical tricks first because ya know, baby steps. Also, it would behove them to have more than one trick up their sleeves. They are used (by Arya) and they would want to be sure a recruit was truly reliable before they taught a n00b the ultimate trick in the proverbial book  

55 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

 it's probably more likely that he wanted someone observant enough to actually see the threats against him before the swords are drawn. If someone can't tell that the cat is just a cat, are they going to be able to see a threat hidden in a compliment?

Bingo. 

57 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

As Barristan once brooded upon, "Threats came from everywhere and nowhere, at any time of day or night. No trumpets announced the foe: vassals, servants, friends, brothers, sons, even wives, any of them might have knives concealed beneath their cloaks and murder hidden in their hearts. For every hour of fighting, a Kingsguard knight spent ten thousand hours watching, waiting, standing silent in the shadows." No point in all that watching and waiting if you can't see anything beyond the surface.

Though, to be honest, I'm not sure if Syrio even had any particular talent at observation. He seemed to think that Arya was a boy; as in, what he expected, not what he was actually seeing, so the exact opposite of what he supposedly did with the Sealord and his cat. But it's possible he was just trying to irk her, or perhaps it simply didn't matter to him. He certainly noticed that it was strange for Lannister men to come and collect Arya, whereas Arya herself would've gone along without thinking about it.

He was talented enough, but his honesty to authority is what got him hired by the Sealord 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

You are the Sealord with powerful political enemies.  What do you fear the most?  A faceless assassin.

Nah. That would be pointless. Nobody would be rich enough to buy a FM contract on the Sealord of Braavos. But if, then the Sealord would be as good as dead. They get the job done, and one Syrio could not stop them.

Quote

 You hire an observant bodyguard but not the best skilled available.   Could it be because Syrio can see through the faceless men's disguise?  I think so.

B)

Sure, Syrio was observant. He looked at a fat cat (not disguised in any way) and saw just that, a fat cat. He saw the Lannister men, wearing Lannister cloaks, allegedly sent by Lord Stark, and inquired, WTF was going on.

However, if the faceless men's art of disguise isn't significantly better than that, then the FM are grossly overrated (and overpriced).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Are you familiar with "The Emperor's new clothes" by Hans Christian Andersen?

I am, and of course it could be that some (or many, or all) of the others were simply lying to the Sealord, in the hope of gaining his approval, but the way Syrio tells the story to Arya is that the others actually believed that they were seeing something exotic. Of course, Syrio couldn't know the thoughts of the others, but that's what he's teaching Arya; "see what is truly there", not "honesty is the best policy".

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

They teach the non-magical tricks first because ya know, baby steps. Also, it would behove them to have more than one trick up their sleeves. They are used (by Arya) and they would want to be sure a recruit was truly reliable before they taught a n00b the ultimate trick in the proverbial book  

Yeah, they absolutely wouldn't just teach their baby assassins how to magically change their face, but I'm sure that the seasoned assassins still use the mummers tricks to disguise themselves (though probably not if they were assassinating the Sealord of Braavos, I'd wager). My point was that I don't think the disguises of the Faceless Men are completely reliable; someone will be able to see through them. Even the face transplant, that strikes me as both techniques mixed together; I think it's primarily a glamour (and as Melisandre says, the strongest glamours use something important from the person's old life, and their actual face seems like it fits the description, to me), but with the actual face put on, even if someone sees through the glamour, the face is there too. I'm sure there are some who, in the right circumstances, might be able to see through even that.

Though, of course, seeing through a magical face transplant is entirely different from noticing that the Sealord is lying about his cat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Nah. That would be pointless. Nobody would be rich enough to buy a FM contract on the Sealord of Braavos. But if, then the Sealord would be as good as dead. They get the job done, and one Syrio could not stop them.

Or Syrio is a faceless man, and was Jaquan Hagar after ending up in the black cells.

 He was first sword of Braavos.

And it seems like the current Sealord is not the same as the one who signed the Viserys-Dorne marriage contract.

So maybe Syrio killed the old Sealord... maybe because he was signing Targ marriage contracts and paossibly providing Targs with shelter/support.

Just saying...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Or Syrio is a faceless man, and was Jaquan Hagar after ending up in the black cells.

 He was first sword of Braavos.

And it seems like the current Sealord is not the same as the one who signed the Viserys-Dorne marriage contract.

So maybe Syrio killed the old Sealord... maybe because he was signing Targ marriage contracts and paossibly providing Targs with shelter/support.

Just saying...

Actually, Coldhands is Syrio.  Syrio was a Dothraki khal who decided he didn't like horses anymore, so started riding an elk.  He stopped for a bit to be First Sword of Braavos, trained Arya later, and then went back to elk riding.

A theory for which we have equally as much evidence as your nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Actually, Coldhands is Syrio.  Syrio was a Dothraki khal who decided he didn't like horses anymore, so started riding an elk.  He stopped for a bit to be First Sword of Braavos, trained Arya later, and then went back to elk riding.

A theory for which we have equally as much evidence as your nonsense.

Ahhh, when in doubt go with Daario is Benjen... I've tried to explain in the past, to mixed success...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am merely pointing out that you have not one shred of evidence for anything, or even a suggestion within the text, for any of your assertions.  I mean, you could drive a bus through some of those holes.

For example, if Syrio is Jaqen, then where did the body of the "original" Jaqen H'ghar that he killed in the black cells go?  Assuming he was put down there and stole a face, he still has to get the body (which is missing it's face!) out without anyone noticing.

I don't think we get any evidence one way or another that the Sealord of Braavos signed the pact, and it's the kind of plot detail which would be relevant.  And either way, the actions of all the characters suggest that even if it is a new Sealord, he is bound by the treaties signed/witnessed by the old.  Doran is not enough of a fool to have this hugely important contract risk being nullified by one of the witnesses dying.  Which again... the Sealord didn't "sign" anything.  He witnessed it, which is vastly different legal matter.

And it makes even less sense that Syrio killed the old Sealord.  We get a perfectly reasonable explanation for why he's in his current position; he served a previous Sealord who valued him for speaking truth to power, and presumably that Sealord was replaced by someone with his own favorite.  If he had killed the previous guy, do you really think he'd be tutoring one of the most prominent girls in the Seven Kingdoms in the open?  He'd be a target for assassination every single day, as I'm guessing the Braavosi hate regicides as much as anyone else throughout history.

And finally, we have no evidence that the Sealord was giving protection to Daenerys and Viserys.  When Willem Darry dies, they get thrown into the streets by the servants.  If the Sealord was even a passive benefactor of theirs, they wouldn't have ended up as beggars on the streets of Braavos.  Especially given their illustrious lineage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I am, and of course it could be that some (or many, or all) of the others were simply lying to the Sealord, in the hope of gaining his approval, but the way Syrio tells the story to Arya is that the others actually believed that they were seeing something exotic. Of course, Syrio couldn't know the thoughts of the others, but that's what he's teaching Arya; "see what is truly there", not "honesty is the best policy".

This is correct.  Arya does not need extra lessons in telling the truth, let alone speaking blurting out truth to power, which comes naturally to her.  She is the epitome of the guileless boy pointing out the hypocrisy in the 'Emperor's New Clothes'!  She needs to learn lie detection, not truth-telling.  This important lesson is repeated via the 'lying game' exercise in the House of Black and White.

The context in which the parable of the Sealord's cat is related is important.  Note that just before, Syrio and Arya had been training at swords and she'd failed to detect a lie (Syrio's deliberate misdirection), choosing to focus on his words instead of reacting to his body language.  Here's that passage in its entirety:

Quote

Arya made a face. "You cheated," she said hotly. "You said left and you went right."

"Just so. And now you are a dead girl."

"But you lied!"

"My words lied. My eyes and my arm shouted out the truth, but you were not seeing."


"I was so," Arya said. "I watched you every second!"

"Watching is not seeing, dead girl. The water dancer sees. Come, put down the sword, it is time for listening now."

She followed him over to the wall, where he settled onto a bench. "Syrio Forel was first sword to the Sealord of Braavos, and are you knowing how that came to pass?"

"You were the finest swordsman in the city."

"Just so, but why? Other men were stronger, faster, younger, why was Syrio Forel the best? I will tell you now." He touched the tip of his little finger lightly to his eyelid. "The seeing, the true seeing, that is the heart of it.

"Hear me. The ships of Braavos sail as far as the winds blow, to lands strange and wonderful, and when they return their captains fetch queer animals to the Sealord's menagerie. Such animals as you have never seen, striped horses, great spotted things with necks as long as stilts, hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows, stinging manticores, tigers that carry their cubs in a pouch, terrible walking lizards with scythes for claws. Syrio Forel has seen these things.

"On the day I am speaking of, the first sword was newly dead, and the Sealord sent for me. Many bravos had come to him, and as many had been sent away, none could say why. When I came into his presence, he was seated, and in his lap was a fat yellow cat. He told me that one of his captains had brought the beast to him, from an island beyond the sunrise. ‘Have you ever seen her like?' he asked of me.

"And to him I said, ‘Each night in the alleys of Braavos I see a thousand like him,' and the Sealord laughed, and that day I was named the first sword."

Arya screwed up her face. "I don't understand."

Syrio clicked his teeth together. "The cat was an ordinary cat, no more. The others expected a fabulous beast, so that is what they saw. How large it was, they said. It was no larger than any other cat, only fat from indolence, for the Sealord fed it from his own table. What curious small ears, they said. Its ears had been chewed away in kitten fights. And it was plainly a tomcat, yet the Sealord said ‘her,' and that is what the others saw. Are you hearing?"

Arya thought about it. "You saw what was there."

"Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."

"Just so," said Arya, grinning.

 

Quote

Yeah, they absolutely wouldn't just teach their baby assassins how to magically change their face, but I'm sure that the seasoned assassins still use the mummers tricks to disguise themselves (though probably not if they were assassinating the Sealord of Braavos, I'd wager). My point was that I don't think the disguises of the Faceless Men are completely reliable; someone will be able to see through them.

That's an interesting notion.  In that case, I'd speculate one would have to be a 'Faceless Man' oneself in order to see through the guise of another Faceless Man, analogous to how one skinchanger can sense another, even when he or she is 'hiding' in the body of a skinchanging host.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I am, and of course it could be that some (or many, or all) of the others were simply lying to the Sealord, in the hope of gaining his approval, but the way Syrio tells the story to Arya is that the others actually believed that they were seeing something exotic. Of course, Syrio couldn't know the thoughts of the others, but that's what he's teaching Arya; "see what is truly there", not "honesty is the best policy".

That is what the Emperor's New Clothes is about. Truth and Honesty to power/authority 

4 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yeah, they absolutely wouldn't just teach their baby assassins how to magically change their face, but I'm sure that the seasoned assassins still use the mummers tricks to disguise themselves (though probably not if they were assassinating the Sealord of Braavos, I'd wager). My point was that I don't think the disguises of the Faceless Men are completely reliable; someone will be able to see through them. Even the face transplant, that strikes me as both techniques mixed together; I think it's primarily a glamour (and as Melisandre says, the strongest glamours use something important from the person's old life, and their actual face seems like it fits the description, to me), but with the actual face put on, even if someone sees through the glamour, the face is there too. I'm sure there are some who, in the right circumstances, might be able to see through even that.

Though, of course, seeing through a magical face transplant is entirely different from noticing that the Sealord is lying about his cat.

I have never thought the FM face bit was a glamour, but as I am not the author I can't say for sure. but the highlighted bit is the main point 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Truth and Honesty to power/authority 

That is clearly not what Syrio's lesson was about, and you know it, stubbornest one...;)

Someone like Tyrion is an asset as Hand not so much because he speaks truth to power, but because he is sufficiently devious himself in order to see through other devious people like Littlefinger.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

"Learn three new things before you come back to us," the kindly man had commanded Cat, when he sent her forth into the city. She always did. Sometimes it was no more than three new words of the Braavosi tongue. Sometimes she brought back sailor's tales, of strange and wondrous happenings from the wide wet world beyond the isles of Braavos, wars and rains of toads and dragons hatching. Sometimes she learned three new japes or three new riddles, or tricks of this trade or the other. And every so often, she would learn some secret.

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of fogs and masks and whispers

Braavos is a city full of devious people.  Therefore, the Sealord needs someone by his side who can see through these 'masks, fogs, secrets and whispers,' if he is to survive.

It's all in the name:  the SEAlord needs a SEElord!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

That is clearly not what Syrio's lesson was about, and you know it, stubbornest one...;)

Someone like Tyrion is an asset as Hand not so much because he speaks truth to power, but because he is sufficiently devious himself in order to see through other devious people like Littlefinger.

Braavos is a city full of devious people.  Therefore, the Sealord needs someone by his side who can see through these 'masks, fogs, secrets and whispers,' if he is to survive.

It's all in the name:  the SEAlord needs a SEElord!

I will give you that one 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...