What was special about Syrio Forel?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

I am merely pointing out that you have not one shred of evidence for anything, or even a suggestion within the text, for any of your assertions.  I mean, you could drive a bus through some of those holes.

For example, if Syrio is Jaqen, then where did the body of the "original" Jaqen H'ghar that he killed in the black cells go?  Assuming he was put down there and stole a face, he still has to get the body (which is missing it's face!) out without anyone noticing.

I don't think we get any evidence one way or another that the Sealord of Braavos signed the pact, and it's the kind of plot detail which would be relevant.  And either way, the actions of all the characters suggest that even if it is a new Sealord, he is bound by the treaties signed/witnessed by the old.  Doran is not enough of a fool to have this hugely important contract risk being nullified by one of the witnesses dying.  Which again... the Sealord didn't "sign" anything.  He witnessed it, which is vastly different legal matter.

And it makes even less sense that Syrio killed the old Sealord.  We get a perfectly reasonable explanation for why he's in his current position; he served a previous Sealord who valued him for speaking truth to power, and presumably that Sealord was replaced by someone with his own favorite.  If he had killed the previous guy, do you really think he'd be tutoring one of the most prominent girls in the Seven Kingdoms in the open?  He'd be a target for assassination every single day, as I'm guessing the Braavosi hate regicides as much as anyone else throughout history.

And finally, we have no evidence that the Sealord was giving protection to Daenerys and Viserys.  When Willem Darry dies, they get thrown into the streets by the servants.  If the Sealord was even a passive benefactor of theirs, they wouldn't have ended up as beggars on the streets of Braavos.  Especially given their illustrious lineage.

Ok cpg...

 

First, if Syrio is Jaquen, then what body are you talking about?

 

But even if Jaquen was a real individual killed and replaced in the Black Cells (unnecessary, it could just be a disguise) Varys has access to the Black Cells and can sneak out a living Tyrion, a body of a lowborn criminal shouldn't be an issue.

 

But there is also the weird detail that when Varys visited Ned, wearing the face of Rugen, he tells Ned that Ned is a dead man... then proceeds to try and convince him to take the black and live. This should jump out as a massive contradiction. Until you realize that Jaquen is waiting with Yoren in his cart to travel North with Ned. Even if Jeoff hadn't had Payne behead Ned, Ned was still a dead man. Of course Varys also tells Ned about the Black Cat Balerion.

 

Oh and there is the fact that Arya overhears Illyrio telling Varys:"If one Hand can die, why not a second?", "You have danced the dance before my friend." (this is after Arya followed the Black Tomcat, presumably Balerion, into the Red Keep Basement.)

 

I'm not sure if you understand how witnessing a contract works... One usually signs as a witness in order to prove the legitimacy and veracity of the other signatories. The Sealord would sign as proof of the legitimacy of the document and agreement. This is like having something notarized today. So that down the road there is proof that it really happened. That these men who signed it all died is a different issue and I'm not sure what you talking about Doran's plans.

 

The contract between Darry and Oberyn, involving Viserys, was seemingly signed in Braavos before Viserys and Dany do their Beggar King travels about Essos. They supposedly had all they're valuables (except mom's crown) stolen, and they are thrown out of the House with the Red Door.

 

Now remember the cat story Syrio Tells Arya about seeing what is really there... the Fat Yellow Tomcat. I would suggest that this is remarkably reminiscent of Illyrio and his yellow fools gold beard.

 

But anyway, the moral is that Syrio saw what was there, in particularl the gender of the cat.

 

Both Syro and Jaques Hagar's first words to Arya are to call her by the wrong gender.

 

There is plenty more, and I could go on, but I hope this is enough to maybe make you consider things a little before just saying there is no basis for something.

 

Finally, I agree it's bizarre that Viserys and Dany had to wander Essos as beggars... what with Illyrio planning Dany's wedding for years, and being rich... but something tells me I arrived at a different conclusion.

[Shi Qiang]

Syrio was very observant and the opposite of gullible.  He's not prone to falling for mummer's tricks and illusions.  Maybe he can detect the faceless men.  That is a good thought.  Their disguise is not perfect and I'm sure they have a "tell" that should alert the very observant that the face is not right.  Maybe the face is a mismatch with the body.  Long, skinny face (Arya) and fat physique should raise an alarm.  Syrio would notice that oddity in a crowd where most people would not. 

[cpg2016]

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First, if Syrio is Jaquen, then what body are you talking about?

Syrio and Jaqen do not share the same face.  For Syrio to turn into Jaqen, he would have to steal that face from someone.  Since he's in the Black Cells, that means a fellow prisoner.

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But even if Jaquen was a real individual killed and replaced in the Black Cells (unnecessary, it could just be a disguise) Varys has access to the Black Cells and can sneak out a living Tyrion, a body of a lowborn criminal shouldn't be an issue.

But Varys/Rugen is in a position of authority both in the royal court and in the royal gaol in particular.  He has no reason to be assisting Syrio Forel in escaping, so why would he take a risk to remove a faceless body from the cells?  Varys has no reason to help, and it is debatable whether he is physically capable of carrying a dead body on his own; he is often described as soft and effeminate, and hundreds of pounds of dead weight is no small feat.  And Syrio/Jaqen is still a prisoner, which is a crucial difference.  If Varys is so eager to help, why not just smuggle out this otherwise meaningless prisoner?

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But there is also the weird detail that when Varys visited Ned, wearing the face of Rugen, he tells Ned that Ned is a dead man... then proceeds to try and convince him to take the black and live.

He is not "wearing the face of Rugen".  He is wearing a disguise made of makeup and clothes and accents and mannerisms.  This is standard mummer/actor fare.  The Faceless Men become someone else; it is not the same.  Arya experiences nightmares of the original person who wore her face.  And Varys has a soft streak; he is a utilitarian in that he'll kill tens of thousands to get his perfect prince on the throne, but he does try to mitigate this where he can.  His whole pitch to Ned is a hard sell to save his and his daughters' life (Ned's, that is).

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Oh and there is the fact that Arya overhears Illyrio telling Varys:"If one Hand can die, why not a second?", "You have danced the dance before my friend." (this is after Arya followed the Black Tomcat, presumably Balerion, into the Red Keep Basement.)

See above.

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I'm not sure if you understand how witnessing a contract works... One usually signs as a witness in order to prove the legitimacy and veracity of the other signatories. The Sealord would sign as proof of the legitimacy of the document and agreement. This is like having something notarized today. So that down the road there is proof that it really happened. That these men who signed it all died is a different issue and I'm not sure what you talking about Doran's plans.

 

The contract between Darry and Oberyn, involving Viserys, was seemingly signed in Braavos before Viserys and Dany do their Beggar King travels about Essos. They supposedly had all they're valuables (except mom's crown) stolen, and they are thrown out of the House with the Red Door.

 

I am saying there isn't a single shred of evidence that Syrio killed the former Sealord because of his Targaryen sympathies (or even that the former Sealord HAD Targ sympathies).  I'm saying that you've crafted this absurd fantasy that Syrio is a Faceless Man, and tried to ascribe all sorts of motivations to him and how his past ties into the plot.  I'm saying that there IS no evidence, and this removes a major prop from the the theory that Syrio is anyone other than who he claims to be, a talented swordsman who fell out of favor during a change in administration in Braavos.

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Both Syro and Jaques Hagar's first words to Arya are to call her by the wrong gender.

 

There is plenty more, and I could go on, but I hope this is enough to maybe make you consider things a little before just saying there is no basis for something.

 

Both Syrio and Jaqen call her a boy because she is a tomboy.  Syrio assumes that anyone taking sword training is male, because in all of the thousands of possible women we could have met, only two actually care to use swords (Brienne being the second), so his mindset is immediately that anyone who wants to train with a sword, is male.  Jaqen does so because she is disguising herself as a boy.  He's an assassin with some pretty sick training and magical skills, not a meta-textual omniscient character who knows the plot structure.  He can make mistakes.

And so far, you have no basis for the theory.  Maybe Jaqen is a not-dead Jory Cassel, hmm?  We have as much reason to believe that.

But more meta-textually, there is no point to having Syrio be Jaqen.  All the hidden identities and reveals in this series are to prove a point and make sense for the character.  fAegon may have been raised to be a perfect prince, but it doesn't work, because he still knows who he is and acts like a privileged prince (better than people like Joffrey or Rhaegar, but still).  If R+L=J is true, then Jon Snow is literally bred to be the Prince that saves the world - but he becomes that hero because of his own choices and journey, not because of prophecy.  GRRM is making narrative points with these decisions, and it makes no sense for him to do something with Syrio, whose part in the story is done - he's the first mentor-figure for Arya, the voice in her head that guides her when she's in danger.

So yes, it is hypothetically possible that Jaqen is Syrio, the same way it is hypothetically possible that Daario is Euron, projecting himself to Dany through Valyrian magic while gaining control over the Ironborn.  But... what would the point be?  It would just take the reader out of the world and suspend disbelief.

[Damon_Tor]

20 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, you can't see through a faceless men's disguise. They literally wear another person's face 

Only the top tier can actually do that though.

[Dorian Martell's son]

13 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Only the top tier can actually do that though.

already covered earlier but thank you for your diligence 

[Damon_Tor]

13 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Syrio and Jaqen do not share the same face.  For Syrio to turn into Jaqen, he would have to steal that face from someone.  Since he's in the Black Cells, that means a fellow prisoner.

We don't fully understand how their face-shifting works. He didn't seem to need any "hardware" to change from Jaquen to the Alchemist, for example. There was no faceless body left behind then, why do we expect one earlier?

I don't believe in Jaquen=Syrio, but that seems like a flawed reason for rejecting it.

[Nevets]

I expect that the Sealord took Syrio as his First Sword because of his demonstrated powers of observation andhis refusal to make unwarranted assumptions.  He looks beyond surface impressions and isn't going to make assumptions not based on observation.  For instance, he isn't going to assume an intruder belongs someplace just because he looks like he belongs.  He's going to actually check.

By the way, we have no reason to believe that Syrio was ever in the Black Cells  We get a complete listing of the recent inmates in one of Cersei's chapters, and Syrio isn't on it, and I can't imagine he would be there without Cersei's knowledge or for any reason for his name to be omitted in any case.

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But there is also the weird detail that when Varys visited Ned, wearing the face of Rugen, he tells Ned that Ned is a dead man... then proceeds to try and convince him to take the black and live. This should jump out as a massive contradiction. Until you realize that Jaquen is waiting with Yoren in his cart to travel North with Ned. Even if Jeoff hadn't had Payne behead Ned, Ned was still a dead man. Of course Varys also tells Ned about the Black Cat Balerion.

If Varys (or anyone else) wants to put an assassin in Yoren's convoy, there are much better ways to do so than having the guy chained up in a wagon.  That makes it very difficult to do anything.  Yoren is taking 30 or so men and boys with him.  Just have your guy pretend to be a down-and-outer looking for a fresh start.  He can do his business and sneak away with no-one being the wiser.

[cpg2016]

15 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

We don't fully understand how their face-shifting works. He didn't seem to need any "hardware" to change from Jaquen to the Alchemist, for example. There was no faceless body left behind then, why do we expect one earlier?

I don't believe in Jaquen=Syrio, but that seems like a flawed reason for rejecting it.

Well, between him being Jaqen and the Alchemist there is a ton of time.  We have no idea what he was doing, or who he was killing, between then.  So not seeing a body there is reasonable.

Whereas, for example, we KNOW that Pate dies in between "Jaqen" transforming from the Alchemist into Pate.  Since they are literally wearing the faces of other people, it stands to reason that the other person needs to be deprived of that face.  The strong implication, almost explicit IIRC, is that the faces in the House of Black and White are the faces of the people who came seeking a peaceful death.  Which means those faces are being removed from those bodies.

Which goes to my larger point; if Syrio=Jaqen was supposed to be a thing, GRRM would give us SOMETHING to tip us off.  For every other big secret/reveal, we have a clue pointing to the larger significance.  If someone had commented on the oddly mutilated corpse found in the black cells, missing it's face, I'd say you've got a leg to stand on.  But again, there is no reason other than circumstantial evidence to think that Syrio is Jaqen, and many reasons not to, first and foremost the utter uselessness of such a gesture.

Why not say Benjen is Bronn?  We haven't seen them in the same place at the same time.  Or that Gerion Lannister is the Shrouded Lord?  If the only requirement for a "theory" is the absence of contradicting evidence, then there are an infinite number of theories.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Syrio and Jaqen do not share the same face.  For Syrio to turn into Jaqen, he would have to steal that face from someone.  Since he's in the Black Cells, that means a fellow prisoner.

But Varys/Rugen is in a position of authority both in the royal court and in the royal gaol in particular.  He has no reason to be assisting Syrio Forel in escaping, so why would he take a risk to remove a faceless body from the cells?  Varys has no reason to help, and it is debatable whether he is physically capable of carrying a dead body on his own; he is often described as soft and effeminate, and hundreds of pounds of dead weight is no small feat.  And Syrio/Jaqen is still a prisoner, which is a crucial difference.  If Varys is so eager to help, why not just smuggle out this otherwise meaningless prisoner?

He is not "wearing the face of Rugen".  He is wearing a disguise made of makeup and clothes and accents and mannerisms.  This is standard mummer/actor fare.  The Faceless Men become someone else; it is not the same.  Arya experiences nightmares of the original person who wore her face.  And Varys has a soft streak; he is a utilitarian in that he'll kill tens of thousands to get his perfect prince on the throne, but he does try to mitigate this where he can.  His whole pitch to Ned is a hard sell to save his and his daughters' life (Ned's, that is).

See above.

I am saying there isn't a single shred of evidence that Syrio killed the former Sealord because of his Targaryen sympathies (or even that the former Sealord HAD Targ sympathies).  I'm saying that you've crafted this absurd fantasy that Syrio is a Faceless Man, and tried to ascribe all sorts of motivations to him and how his past ties into the plot.  I'm saying that there IS no evidence, and this removes a major prop from the the theory that Syrio is anyone other than who he claims to be, a talented swordsman who fell out of favor during a change in administration in Braavos.

Both Syrio and Jaqen call her a boy because she is a tomboy.  Syrio assumes that anyone taking sword training is male, because in all of the thousands of possible women we could have met, only two actually care to use swords (Brienne being the second), so his mindset is immediately that anyone who wants to train with a sword, is male.  Jaqen does so because she is disguising herself as a boy.  He's an assassin with some pretty sick training and magical skills, not a meta-textual omniscient character who knows the plot structure.  He can make mistakes.

And so far, you have no basis for the theory.  Maybe Jaqen is a not-dead Jory Cassel, hmm?  We have as much reason to believe that.

But more meta-textually, there is no point to having Syrio be Jaqen.  All the hidden identities and reveals in this series are to prove a point and make sense for the character.  fAegon may have been raised to be a perfect prince, but it doesn't work, because he still knows who he is and acts like a privileged prince (better than people like Joffrey or Rhaegar, but still).  If R+L=J is true, then Jon Snow is literally bred to be the Prince that saves the world - but he becomes that hero because of his own choices and journey, not because of prophecy.  GRRM is making narrative points with these decisions, and it makes no sense for him to do something with Syrio, whose part in the story is done - he's the first mentor-figure for Arya, the voice in her head that guides her when she's in danger.

So yes, it is hypothetically possible that Jaqen is Syrio, the same way it is hypothetically possible that Daario is Euron, projecting himself to Dany through Valyrian magic while gaining control over the Ironborn.  But... what would the point be?  It would just take the reader out of the world and suspend disbelief.

Hey I appreciate the spirited conversation, but I think you are confused on a few points... as well as being willfully obstinant.

You are assuming Jaquen was once a real person... it could just be an identity. Also, there is no reason to think the physical face is needed, when Jaquen changes his face as he leaves Arya there is no evidence of physical faces being put on or  taken off. Glamors likely don't require any physical body parts.

Im trying to explain why Varys would have a motive... you're idea of his motivations and goals is assumption and I think deserves to be questioned. Remember this is the guy who cuts out children's tongues to use them as spies.

I don't think for a second he cares about the "good of the realm".

Arya witnesses him tell Illyrio he'll try and kill Ned.

Varys visits Ned in the Black Cells and tells him he's a dead man.

You aren't the first to think Varys is just using "mummer's tricks", but I've never heard of fake scruff that can stand up to being rubbed. I think Ned only "sees" through it because the cells are dark and his sight doesn't distract him from noticing it is Varys.

I'm suggesting Varys is the first person we see wear another's face and is a Faceless man himself. We could debate that, it's a theory, I'm not stating fact. But I don't think it should be dismissed so flipantly.

But that should explain his motives right? And you see that no moving of bodies is required?

Varys is in Ned's cell to get him to recognize Jeoff because he wants the civil war to be delayed till he and Illyrio can use it to their advantage. I don't think he ever intended on letting Ned live.

You are right that there is no evidence Syrio killed a Sealord, but the marriage pact is pretty hard evidence the Sealord was at least sympathetic to Targs. Of course, there was also a change in power seemingly soon after the pact was signed. And the Targs were seemingly thrown out. Could be coincidence.

If Syrio/Jaquen are one person there is no reason to believe it's the same person as the "real" Syrio, first sword of Braavos. (Let's say if Arya was in Braavos and met another member of the Forel family and found out Syrio died before Arya got a dancing teacher, just a possibility).

This leads into your meta reasoning, which I try to stay away from since it's so subjective... but... You are gonna tell me that Arya finding out Syrio was Jaquen and is still alive, followed by finding out he had been in Kings Landing to kill her dad isn't a good plot point?

Anyway... back to Syrio...

We never see him die, that's the big red flag right?

Jaquen can change what he looks like... and appears in the Black Cells at the same time Syrio disappears.

It's not that crazy a theory.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, between him being Jaqen and the Alchemist there is a ton of time.  We have no idea what he was doing, or who he was killing, between then.  So not seeing a body there is reasonable.

Whereas, for example, we KNOW that Pate dies in between "Jaqen" transforming from the Alchemist into Pate.  Since they are literally wearing the faces of other people, it stands to reason that the other person needs to be deprived of that face.  The strong implication, almost explicit IIRC, is that the faces in the House of Black and White are the faces of the people who came seeking a peaceful death.  Which means those faces are being removed from those bodies.

Which goes to my larger point; if Syrio=Jaqen was supposed to be a thing, GRRM would give us SOMETHING to tip us off.  For every other big secret/reveal, we have a clue pointing to the larger significance.  If someone had commented on the oddly mutilated corpse found in the black cells, missing it's face, I'd say you've got a leg to stand on.  But again, there is no reason other than circumstantial evidence to think that Syrio is Jaqen, and many reasons not to, first and foremost the utter uselessness of such a gesture.

Why not say Benjen is Bronn?  We haven't seen them in the same place at the same time.  Or that Gerion Lannister is the Shrouded Lord?  If the only requirement for a "theory" is the absence of contradicting evidence, then there are an infinite number of theories.

There is more connecting Syrio and Jaquen then just suspicious disappearing/appearing timing... but I can only point things out, I can't make you see.

But honestly why do you think Jaquen was in the Black Cells? 

[The Commentator]

The original Sealord died.  The one who witnessed the pact between Dorne and Ser Willem.  Syrio's boss.   Suppose he didn't die from natural causes and was the victim of assassination.  A loyal man like Syrio would want to pursue the assassin and get revenge for his former employer.  He's not all that different from the Kingsguard and his loyalty does not transfer easily.  Suppose he was pursuing Jaqen.  

[LiveFirstDieLater]

48 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The original Sealord died.  The one who witnessed the pact between Dorne and Ser Willem.  Syrio's boss.   Suppose he didn't die from natural causes and was the victim of assassination.  A loyal man like Syrio would want to pursue the assassin and get revenge for his former employer.  He's not all that different from the Kingsguard and his loyalty does not transfer easily.  Suppose he was pursuing Jaqen.  

Suppose the way to get to the Sealord was to take the face of his First Sword...

All speculation, but just saying it works both ways...

[HammerTron]

Syrio called Arya "boy" because it was part of an elaborate ruse to prevent others from knowing what Arya was actually doing.

Sansa didn't know that Arya was learning to fight with a sword.  Sansa believed Arya was learning to dance.

Ned gave her sword fighting lessons because he cared for Arya and wanted her to be happy.  He also knew that she was very willful.  It was just easier to give her sword fighting lessons and then worry about making her more ladylike as she got older.  Ned really had no idea that she would actually need to know how to fight later on.

They had to keep this a secret because it just wasn't proper to teach girls how to fight with swords.  Also Joffrey was most likely still angry.

What's surprising is that Varys didn't seem to know what Arya was actually doing.  How could his "little birds" not have known what she was doing or where she was.  How could they have lost track of her even with all the chaos?

We don't have any definite information about Syrio's fate so it leads to the possibility that he is still alive and kicking somewhere.

I don't think Syrio and Jacquen are the same.

Have any characters made a come back after a long absence?

Benjen ist still missing and we was the first to go missing without any information about his fate.

The could be a reflection or real life where a person could be a part of someone's life for a little while and then leave for whatever reason and are simply never heard from again.

[devilish]

What's so special about Syrio Forel?

First of all I find it suspicious that the Magister of Pentos, a faceless man and a First Sword of Bravos are all at the Red Keep few days before all this shite happened.

However, what makes Syrio special?

a- he's skilled in a type of fighting that Westeros doesn't know about or respect. Considering that he impressed the Lord of possibly the most closed minded region in all Westeros to entrust him with tutoring his daughter, then I guess, he's very good in that skill and in sword fighting in general. I don't think that honesty is enough to become a first sword of Bravos or a highborn's tutor

b- the guy risked his life for a random girl from a strange land whom, lets face it, isn't very keen towards foreigners. In a land were everything has a price and betrayal is the bread and butter of politics, that's quite remarkable.

c- He won Arya's respect. Arya is not the typical pompous and arrogant highborn. There again, she's got a mind of her own and she finds it difficult to trust people. Syrio achieved that and its quite remarkable.  

 

 

[Wolf's Bane]

16 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The original Sealord died.  The one who witnessed the pact between Dorne and Ser Willem.  Syrio's boss.   Suppose he didn't die from natural causes and was the victim of assassination.  A loyal man like Syrio would want to pursue the assassin and get revenge for his former employer.  He's not all that different from the Kingsguard and his loyalty does not transfer easily.  Suppose he was pursuing Jaqen.  

 

20 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There is more connecting Syrio and Jaquen then just suspicious disappearing/appearing timing... but I can only point things out, I can't make you see.

But honestly why do you think Jaquen was in the Black Cells? 

Maybe Syrio caught up with him and took him to justice.  Jaqen was awaiting trial for killing the Sealord.  Syrio came to the Hand of the King and asked for his assistance in holding Jaqen prisoner.  That's how Ned and Syrio met. 

[cpg2016]

23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Hey I appreciate the spirited conversation, but I think you are confused on a few points... as well as being willfully obstinant.

You are assuming Jaquen was once a real person... it could just be an identity. Also, there is no reason to think the physical face is needed, when Jaquen changes his face as he leaves Arya there is no evidence of physical faces being put on or  taken off. Glamors likely don't require any physical body parts.

Well, responding to this, I think this is a mistake of GRRM not having his magic system sorted out, because Arya's later experience int he House of Black and White makes it clear they need a physical face for what they do.

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Jaquen can change what he looks like... and appears in the Black Cells at the same time Syrio disappears.

It's not that crazy a theory.

 

It is a crazy theory, one explicitly refuted by the text (which I'll get to).   But more importantly, it makes no sense.  From a narrative perspective, why have this be the case?  It serves no purpose.  For any reason.  Why is Syrio/Jaqen, an assassin (and an extremely expensive one, at that) taking all this time to train Arya in swordfighting?  Why is he even a master swordfighter?  Why is a Faceless Man a First Sword of Braavos in the first place?  Syrio is a well known, highly trained swordsman for most of his life.  Even IF Jaqen (I'll call him this to differentiate) is impersonating him by the time of AGoT, how does he become such a proficient swordsmen, one of the best in the world, that quickly?  How does this pay off in for the characters involved in a narrative sense?  It's a pointless twist, and too much has to be looked over for it to make sense.

And again, from AFFC, Jaime I: "There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch."

Unless you are trying to tell me that Syrio was both Syrio AND Jaqen simultaneously, the timeline does not make sense.  We know Syrio dies (or, if you believe in unsubstantiated theories, was rescued by R"hllor and the Drowned God right before Meryn Trant kills him and is put in the black cells) during Cersei's coup.  Ned Stark loses his authority to make any kind of command during said coup.  Thus, Jaqen is already in the black cells prior to Syrio being attacked.  Which means, conclusively, that Syrio is not Jaqen.  You can draw any kind of crazy connection you want, but the timeline Does. Not. Work.

But as I was trying to say before, on a more general note about theories, use Occam's Razor.  GRRM is not in the habit of building in these absurd "gotcha!" secrets and moments into his stories.  Every reveal is heavily hinted at and has thematic resonance.  Syrio-as-Jaqen makes no sense on a whole bunch of different levels, and has none of that resonance to boot. This goes for other theories, too, which is why I want to emphasize it for situations where the text doesn't explicitly refute it.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, responding to this, I think this is a mistake of GRRM not having his magic system sorted out, because Arya's later experience int he House of Black and White makes it clear they need a physical face for what they do.

It is a crazy theory, one explicitly refuted by the text (which I'll get to).   But more importantly, it makes no sense.  From a narrative perspective, why have this be the case?  It serves no purpose.  For any reason.  Why is Syrio/Jaqen, an assassin (and an extremely expensive one, at that) taking all this time to train Arya in swordfighting?  Why is he even a master swordfighter?  Why is a Faceless Man a First Sword of Braavos in the first place?  Syrio is a well known, highly trained swordsman for most of his life.  Even IF Jaqen (I'll call him this to differentiate) is impersonating him by the time of AGoT, how does he become such a proficient swordsmen, one of the best in the world, that quickly?  How does this pay off in for the characters involved in a narrative sense?  It's a pointless twist, and too much has to be looked over for it to make sense.

And again, from AFFC, Jaime I: "There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch."

Unless you are trying to tell me that Syrio was both Syrio AND Jaqen simultaneously, the timeline does not make sense.  We know Syrio dies (or, if you believe in unsubstantiated theories, was rescued by R"hllor and the Drowned God right before Meryn Trant kills him and is put in the black cells) during Cersei's coup.  Ned Stark loses his authority to make any kind of command during said coup.  Thus, Jaqen is already in the black cells prior to Syrio being attacked.  Which means, conclusively, that Syrio is not Jaqen.  You can draw any kind of crazy connection you want, but the timeline Does. Not. Work.

But as I was trying to say before, on a more general note about theories, use Occam's Razor.  GRRM is not in the habit of building in these absurd "gotcha!" secrets and moments into his stories.  Every reveal is heavily hinted at and has thematic resonance.  Syrio-as-Jaqen makes no sense on a whole bunch of different levels, and has none of that resonance to boot. This goes for other theories, too, which is why I want to emphasize it for situations where the text doesn't explicitly refute it.

I don't think it's a mistake by GRRM. I think there are probably multiple way since to disguise yourself, including both glamors and "face wearing". We see Jaquen change his face in front of Arya without any physical tools... so it's possible. 

As for Ned giving the three common men to the Nights Watch... ya that's the point, I don't know why this is hard for you to get. Maybe I'm explaining poorly.

We do not know Syrio died... please show me that text if you disagree... but he did disappear after Ned gave away the 3 prisoners in the Cells.

 I'm suggesting he took one of their place with the help of Varys/Rugen who has free access to the cells. No part of this is contradicted or even complicated by the men already being there. In fact Ned's order giving them to the Nights watch sets up the reasoning for the switch.

I certainly do not see any timeline issue, Syrio escapes from the Trant fight after buying Arya time... and with the help of Varys takes a prisoners place (we don't even know if Jaquen was a real person or just an identity). 

Likely for one of two reasons. As I've suggested, to kill Ned, or more simply just to escape Kings Landing which had its gates sealed and was on lockdown. Much like how Gendry was sent with Yoren as a means of escape.

Finally, Occam's Razor doesn't apply to fiction, especially fantasy. There is no logic suggesting simple is more likely in literature. This is a fallacy frequently thrown around to discredit theories. If you want to say you prefer a theory because it seems simpler to you, that's cool, but it's not Occam's Razor.

And GRRM is exactly the kind of author to pull a got'ya scene... especially with a character death... are you kidding? (See Bran, Rickon, Arya, Jon, Tyron, Davos, Brienne etc.)

And I still disagree that there is no plot reasoning behind it, but since that's totally subjective and speculative I'll try not to go too far down that rabbit hole. 

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On 6/14/2017 at 7:18 PM, Nevets said:

 

By the way, we have no reason to believe that Syrio was ever in the Black Cells  We get a complete listing of the recent inmates in one of Cersei's chapters, and Syrio isn't on it, and I can't imagine he would be there without Cersei's knowledge or for any reason for his name to be omitted in any case.

If Varys (or anyone else) wants to put an assassin in Yoren's convoy, there are much better ways to do so than having the guy chained up in a wagon.  That makes it very difficult to do anything.  Yoren is taking 30 or so men and boys with him.  Just have your guy pretend to be a down-and-outer looking for a fresh start.  He can do his business and sneak away with no-one being the wiser.

You are right in that I haven't found hard evidence of Syrio in the Black Cells, but I wouldn't expect to.

And I'm not so sure about the ease of putting an assassin in with Yoren. Especially if that assassin was in the Red Keep during Cersei's coup. Remember the wholeness place was on lockdown, both the keep and the city gates. 

Then we have Varys in the black cells talking Ned into joining the watch, with three criminals down the hall who are already scheduled to go with Yoren.

If you wanted to send your man along you might just replace one of those prisoners wth him. Seems the simplest way of escaping Kings Landing and sticking with Ned.

[kimim]

Syrio is important because he brings out the theme of "seeing well." The cat story has nothing to do with glamor or with fawning over what the lord is telling them. It has to do with looking past the false "reality" offered by someone you respect and trust, and seeing what is truly there.

This is why I don't believe Syrio is a magical FM. His philosophy is the opposite of magic: put away your preconceptions and see, literally, what is in front of you. That kind of "seeing" is the opposite of magic, requires trust in objective reality. It is compromised when faced with magic, which literally changes what's in front of you.

[Damon_Tor]

On 6/15/2017 at 6:56 AM, cpg2016 said:

Since they are literally wearing the faces of other people

We have no reason to believe this is the case, and quite a few reasons to believe otherwise.