Maltaran Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 4 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said: This is dumb, but have read several reports about how the PM has not actually gone in and met the people affected because of "security concerns" (apparently will "visit people in the hospital"). But somehow the Queen, at 91, had no problem going in. I guess don't mess with someone who stayed in London during the blitz? From an American perspective the royal family often seems superfluous and strange, but there are moments when I wish we had something similar (minus the homeopathy and marm-ing) - a national conscience that wears great hats. That is all. The homeopathy is Charles, not Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Of course the daily mail have pictures of the (black) man whose faulty fridge was believed to have started the blaze. Not of the people who chose the cheaper product, or the (landlord) mp's who voted against legislation that would have made the properties safer. I fucking despair of our press. The Sun went to a hospital pretending to be a friend of one of the victims in order to try to get in and interview him. Fucking despicable these lot are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Do they think that they know where rhe fire started already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 From CBC News; http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/london-fire-grenfell-tarling-expert-1.4163560 Quote "It had to be a cladding fire." British fire protection specialist Arnold Tarling isn't wondering what caused the fire to spread so quickly in London's Grenfell Tower early Wednesday. He's certain the recently added exterior cladding system is to blame. For years, the associate director of London-based Hindwoods Chartered Surveyors has been calling for improved fire safety regulations in the country. Quote Q: What does this say about these modern methods of construction that could be potentially so dangerous? What it actually says is that the building regulations we have in this country are not fit for … this form of cladding. All that you require to meet the standards is that the outside surface shouldn't allow the spread of flames. What is going on behind the metal or the other surface is entirely irrelevant to building regulations. You could put expanded polystyrene in there, or anything else that burns. Q: The construction company has said it followed regulations. I have seen nothing yet that the architect or the contractor or the supply of materials breached the building regulations. The horrendous fact is that in 2014 I did a talk to the British Standard Institute at one of their fire conferences. And I said this will happen in this country. There will be multiple fatalities as a result if these cladding systems are not changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naz Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Leave aside the building materials used for cladding, insulation, and whatnot.... There's no single better thing to control the spread of fires and reduce the loss of life in buildings than sprinkler systems. Install sprinklers or some other fire suppression system and you will almost guarantee no loss of life. I say "almost" because with things like explosions and, well... airplanes crashing into buildings... sprinklers can't help there except to limit the spread of fire to the area of impact itself. If you read most building codes section by section, you'll find that for whatever limitation that is required to protect against fire - even the size of buildings and spaces - there is an exception or allowance if you've fully installed a proper sprinkler system that covers the entire building. Want to make a wood building more than 2 stories tall? Install sprinklers and you can probably do it. Want to leave your beams and ductwork exposed for that "industrial" look? Install sprinklers and you can probably do it. That's how much sprinklers make a difference. There are statistics (not sure on the accuracy) like 96% of fires in fully sprinklered buildings have been contained by sprinkler systems. We don't know all the facts yet of course, but from what I've seen so far, that 10 million GBP would've been far better spent retroactively installing a sprinkler system. It would've been a major pain in the ass (as all sprinkler retrofits are), but then dozens of people would probably be alive today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 More than a few outlets suggesting this is Theresa May's Katrina, and it will be very, very difficult for her to recover from it. The mishandling of fire safety legislation (under both the Coalition and New Labour), the repeating ignoring of the very loud voices from the tower block and even threatening them with legal action if they didn't shut up, and the decision to spend millions on this deathtrap cladding to make the building look nice for the gentrified neighbouring towers (even though a lot of them are half-empty) and not £200,000 on a sprinkler system, has shown this was a disaster waiting to happen. There's now the scramble of fire safety people running around the country making sure other dodgy towers aren't in a similar state, with what appears to now be at least 70 (and possibly more) dead. Utterly horrendous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 4 hours ago, BigFatCoward said: Of course the daily mail have pictures of the (black) man whose faulty fridge was believed to have started the blaze. Not of the people who chose the cheaper product, or the (landlord) mp's who voted against legislation that would have made the properties safer. I fucking despair of our press. Complaints have been made against the Sun's "journalists" (i use that word generously here) for impersonating the friend of one of the victims to get an interview. I also saw comments that complaints were lodged against the DM for the article you mention though i'm not sure how accurate that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 9 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said: This is dumb, but have read several reports about how the PM has not actually gone in and met the people affected because of "security concerns" (apparently will "visit people in the hospital"). But somehow the Queen, at 91, had no problem going in. I guess don't mess with someone who stayed in London during the blitz? From an American perspective the royal family often seems superfluous and strange, but there are moments when I wish we had something similar (minus the homeopathy and marm-ing) - a national conscience that wears great hats. That is all. There were also claims by some that May wasn't visiting the people affected the day after because she didn't want to get in the way of the emergency services, which seemed a bit bizarre when what she did instead was meet with members of the emergency services. I'm sure she didn't get in the way when doing that, so she could equally well have met some of the survivors then. 4 hours ago, BigFatCoward said: Of course the daily mail have pictures of the (black) man whose faulty fridge was believed to have started the blaze. Not of the people who chose the cheaper product, or the (landlord) mp's who voted against legislation that would have made the properties safer. I fucking despair of our press. They also had a moronic headline asking if Green policies were to blame for the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Someone having a fire in their flat is not shocking - even if from faulty equipment - that, or stupidity, probably causes most fires.What is shocking are the consequences of its spreading unchecked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 5 hours ago, Werthead said: There's now the scramble of fire safety people running around the country making sure other dodgy towers aren't in a similar state, with what appears to now be at least 70 (and possibly more) dead. Utterly horrendous. I'd be pleased to know this was happening, but can believe that despite all this it might not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 On 6/15/2017 at 3:57 AM, Lyanna Stark said: I had to turn off the news when I saw this, it was too horrific. Those poor, poor people. Yeah, this is like, pretty much my worst nightmare. Giving me awful flashbacks to 9/11 too. Just...fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Someone on another board i frequent suggested that riots 2.0 could be coming. This wouldn't surprise me, if people were prepared to riot because a known career criminal scumbag with a gun gets shot, what should the reaction be when the ruling classes basically say, 'we don't care about your lives and are prepared to let you die to save a couple of quid'. And TM's reaction and performance has really got people angry, with justification, she has been fucking useless and heartless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 26 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Someone on another board i frequent suggested that riots 2.0 could be coming. This wouldn't surprise me, if people were prepared to riot because a known career criminal scumbag with a gun gets shot, what should the reaction be when the ruling classes basically say, 'we don't care about your lives and are prepared to let you die to save a couple of quid'. And TM's reaction and performance has really got people angry, with justification, she has been fucking useless and heartless. Yeah, I was talking about this with my brother on Thursday evening, even before yesterday's protests: even from all the way over here in Germany the mood there seems like things could really kick off; it needs careful handling and it's not getting it. From the political elite, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 The incompetence that TM is displaying in handling this is breathtaking. The gestures you need to make, the motions you need to go through should be second nature to anyone that aspires to be PM of any country and she doesn't seem to have a clue. She needs to be trying to prevent anger boiling over and she seems more likely to cause a riot than prevent one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ants Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 She seems to think offering 5m pounds is enough...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 24 minutes ago, karaddin said: The incompetence that TM is displaying in handling this is breathtaking. The gestures you need to make, the motions you need to go through should be second nature to anyone that aspires to be PM of any country and she doesn't seem to have a clue. She needs to be trying to prevent anger boiling over and she seems more likely to cause a riot than prevent one. It's shocking. We're literally seeing people from her team releasing statements that 'Theresa May really does have human feelings guys, stop being mean!'. THAT IS NOT THE CORRECT RESPONSE TO THE SITUATION! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 There's a lot of anger boiling over in the London boroughs about what the deregulations and the permitting of property to be held empty as investments have done to the city and to prices, entire families with generations of history in the city being driven out (some ending up as far as here, actually). This could blow up quite easily, and May is handling it appallingly. I can see the calls and timetable for her to go being accelerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 16 hours ago, naz said: Leave aside the building materials used for cladding, insulation, and whatnot.... There's no single better thing to control the spread of fires and reduce the loss of life in buildings than sprinkler systems. Install sprinklers or some other fire suppression system and you will almost guarantee no loss of life. I say "almost" because with things like explosions and, well... airplanes crashing into buildings... sprinklers can't help there except to limit the spread of fire to the area of impact itself. If you read most building codes section by section, you'll find that for whatever limitation that is required to protect against fire - even the size of buildings and spaces - there is an exception or allowance if you've fully installed a proper sprinkler system that covers the entire building. Want to make a wood building more than 2 stories tall? Install sprinklers and you can probably do it. Want to leave your beams and ductwork exposed for that "industrial" look? Install sprinklers and you can probably do it. That's how much sprinklers make a difference. There are statistics (not sure on the accuracy) like 96% of fires in fully sprinklered buildings have been contained by sprinkler systems. We don't know all the facts yet of course, but from what I've seen so far, that 10 million GBP would've been far better spent retroactively installing a sprinkler system. It would've been a major pain in the ass (as all sprinkler retrofits are), but then dozens of people would probably be alive today. Ontario does require sprinkler systems in towers such as this and has for years. My brother in law, until he retired, was very high up in the Ontario Fire Marshal's Office. He told me once that there have been almost zero fatalities in sprinklered buildings. How any government since the 1940s, when sprinklers became mandatory here, could not require them in residential towers, is to me, criminal negligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 This fire was a symbol of a lot of the anger that people are feeling over a number of issues in london and I'm not surprised by the reaction. That area itself I know well and it's something you see a lot of in london. 70s council estates in the middle of much more expensive areas , left in appalling condition in the hope that they will up and leave or go nicely when asked. You have a general frustration of a country that is perceived to ignore all the issues of the little man, of the poor. You have an area that was predominantly immigrant as well adding to the sense of persecution. Add that a huge imbalance between those who can own their own homes and those who can't, with people being forced to move further and further out to realistically afford to live, and it's just all going to explode. The Duggan riots of a few years ago were a disgrace, mostly an excuse to loot and have a laugh without adults , if this boils into something bigger it might well have some justification. May has been appalling as usual throughout this. I saw her in an interview last night and she looked like all the life has been drained from her. A corpse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 4 hours ago, BigFatCoward said: Someone on another board i frequent suggested that riots 2.0 could be coming. This wouldn't surprise me, if people were prepared to riot because a known career criminal scumbag with a gun gets shot, what should the reaction be when the ruling classes basically say, 'we don't care about your lives and are prepared to let you die to save a couple of quid'. And TM's reaction and performance has really got people angry, with justification, she has been fucking useless and heartless. I hope you are wrong, but the same thought had occurred to me. 3 hours ago, karaddin said: The incompetence that TM is displaying in handling this is breathtaking. The gestures you need to make, the motions you need to go through should be second nature to anyone that aspires to be PM of any country and she doesn't seem to have a clue. She needs to be trying to prevent anger boiling over and she seems more likely to cause a riot than prevent one. I think any of the other recent Prime Ministers would have handled this better, I would think Cameron would have been going to meet the survivors on the first day, he might then have had to face an angry reaction but at least he would have made the effort to try to be seen to do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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