Melisandre - did she burn any children in bookverse?

[TMIFairy]

Had Melisandre burned any children in the book?

How young was her youngest offering/victim?

If already discussed - please give a kick in the right direction

 

[Damsel in Distress]

No she has not and may not.  That said, Craster's son is in mortal danger.

[Dorian Martell's son]

35 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Had Melisandre burned any children in the book?

How young was her youngest offering/victim?

If already discussed - please give a kick in the right direction

No, just grownups and statues 

 

[TMIFairy]

Thank you, good people 

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Had Melisandre burned any children in the book?

How young was her youngest offering/victim?

If already discussed - please give a kick in the right direction

 

She tried to get her silky long fingers on Edric Storm. Stannis agreed she could leech the boy. Davos stole the boy away before she could do what she wanted to do.

BUT, the leeching of Edric’s blood supposedly brought about the death of Joffrey, Balon and Robb.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon."  <snip>  You have the leeches. Do your work."     Melisandre bowed her head stiffly, and said, "As my king commands." Reaching up her left sleeve with her right hand, she flung a handful of powder into the brazier. The coals roared. As pale flames writhed atop them, the red woman retrieved the silver dish and brought it to the king. Davos watched her lift the lid. Beneath were three large black leeches, fat with blood.

"Say the name," Melisandre commanded.

The leech was twisting in the king's grip, trying to attach itself to one of his fingers. "The usurper," he said. "Joffrey Baratheon." When he tossed the leech into the fire, it curled up like an autumn leaf amidst the coals, and burned.     Stannis grasped the second. "The usurper," he declared, louder this time. "Balon Greyjoy." He flipped it lightly onto the brazier, and its flesh split and cracked. The blood burst from it, hissing and smoking. The last was in the king's hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. "The usurper," he said at last. "Robb Stark." And he threw it on the flames.

 

 

Does that count?

One day Martin is going to release the WoW. Then I will read how Shirleen dies and if and when Hodor kicks the bucket.

Until that time I will keep in mind what Mel said in her one and only POV.
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I     Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke.

A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

 

 She thinks she is powerful. If she is powerful what is she up to?  What is her agenda? Appears that she thinks the enemy is the Great Other and some great stone dragon is going to awake somewhere and Stannis is a part of her ---- her what.

 

 

[bent branch]

6 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

No she has not and may not.  That said, Craster's son is in mortal danger.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Mel understands not only that the babies have been switched, but also that Mance isn't a "king" as Southrons or Essosi undertand king. I don't think she wants to burn the baby.

[Makk]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

BUT, the leeching of Edric’s blood supposedly brought about the death of Joffrey, Balon and Robb.

With the leeches it is more likely that she saw the kings deaths in the flames and then devised a plan to convince Stannis of her power. We have evidence that she can see things, but if she can simply kill people via a tiny bit of bastard kings blood, she would have done a lot more. If you assume she was responsible for those deaths it means she influenced Littlefinger, the Boltons, Olena Tyrell, the faceless men, Walder Frey and how many other people. I don't believe she has that power.

We also have evidence from her POV chapters in ADWD, that she lies about her power and invents things to gain influence with those she wants to, in this case Jon.

[Adam Yozza]

None. In fact, the overall number of people she's actually had burned to death is far lower than many people believe.

[Clegane'sPup]

18 hours ago, Makk said:

With the leeches it is more likely that she saw the kings deaths in the flames and then devised a plan to convince Stannis of her power.

Kinda like visiting a fortune teller or attending a séance.

18 hours ago, Makk said:

We have evidence that she can see things, but if she can simply kill people via a tiny bit of bastard kings blood, she would have done a lot more

I agree.

18 hours ago, Makk said:

If you assume she was responsible for those deaths it means she influenced Littlefinger, the Boltons, Olena Tyrell, the faceless men, Walder Frey and how many other people. I don't believe she has that power.

I don’t assume Mel was responsible for the deaths nor do I think she can influence the people you mention.  Whatever Mel’s back-story is, she is well versed in her mummery.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I     Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke.

A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

 

The above for some reason reminds me of what the Kindly Man told Arya.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl     "Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with.

The reason I mention the above is that because when Mel tried to trick LC Snow he saw through it but Ghost didn’t.

18 hours ago, Makk said:

We also have evidence from her POV chapters in ADWD, that she lies about her power and invents things to gain influence with those she wants to, in this case Jon.

For most part I agree, but could you shed some light on where are you going with the Jon thing?

I’ll cut Mel some slack because visions, prophesies and green dreams are open to interpretation ---- as in Jojen saying the sea is coming to WF when it actually meant the Iron Born were going to invade.

Going back to the OP, I’m kinda curious after giving it some thought---Jon receives the Pink/Bastard letter stating Stannis is dead.  Mel was in room when LC Snow read it out loud.

Selyse is a Mel/Rhllor convert.  Does anyone have any ideas, thoughts or opines about why Selyse would allow Shirleen to burned at the pyre? Thanks.

[Makk]

25 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

For most part I agree, but could you shed some light on where are you going with the Jon thing?

Hmmm, there doesn't seem to have been as much as I believed. "Invent" was too strong a word, but she does misrepresent the power of her visions and what she knows.

"We've had a raven from Ser Denys Mallister at the Shadow Tower," Jon Snow told her. "His men have seen fires in the mountains on the far side of the Gorge. Wildlings massing, Ser Denys believes. He thinks they are going to try to force the Bridge of Skulls again."

“Some may.” Could the skulls in her vision have signified this bridge? Somehow Melisandre did not think so. “If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall.”

“Eastwatch?”

Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch, my lord.”

She doesn't really know but she pretends she does about quite an important matter. I also feel she is also lying about her bond with Ghost, but that hasn't been revealed so I can't really use that.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

35 minutes ago, Makk said:

She doesn't really know but she pretends she does about quite an important matter. I also feel she is also lying about her bond with Ghost, but that hasn't been revealed so I can't really use that.

I would say she is lying about her bond with Ghost. Mel is like sword without a hilt, dangerous, yet no control. I pulled this together for a different thread a while back, so I will just copy/paste it here:

• ADWD/ Jon VI- Ch 28: In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

...Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte.

..."Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song. (song, as in spell like MMD says)

...The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too

... At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.

• ADWD/ AryaII: "Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes,
• ADWD/Mel- Ch31: The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.
  • ASOS/ Davos III: "With a smile and swirl of scarlet skirts, she was gone. Only her scent lingered after."

[zandru]

21 hours ago, Makk said:

With the leeches it is more likely that she saw the kings deaths in the flames and then devised a plan to convince Stannis of her power. We have evidence that she can see things, but if she can simply kill people via a tiny bit of bastard kings blood, she would have done a lot more.

Good catch! Also, of convincing Stannis that if a leechful of "king's blood" can kill a king at a far distance, think of what ALL of Edric's blood in the fires could do!

We've seen some instances of Melisandre misreading the flames

• "the thin girl on a dying horse" - not Arya, as she said, but the Karstark girl
• Azor Ahai - "I look for Stannis, but all I see is the long face of Jon Snow" (not an exact quote)
• The "Eastwatch" confusion you quoted
• Ditto for the apparent "Bridge of Skulls"

In those last two, she firms up a shaky vision that she can't identify by telling the questioner what he wants to hear.

[snow is the man]

She didn't burn any in the books as far as I know. Though My theory on how jon snow survives is that shireen will burn to save jon snow or bring him back. No I have no proof of it it's just my theory. She did try to burn edric storm but that's an almost. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

41 minutes ago, zandru said:

In those last two, she firms up a shaky vision that she can't identify by telling the questioner what he wants to hear.

Or, possibly, she is telling the questioner what she wants him to hear.

[zandru]

43 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Or, possibly, she is telling the questioner what she wants him to hear.

Well, I'd say no to that. She saw skulls and had no idea what it meant; Jon mentions a report suggesting an attack at the "bridge of skulls" was imminent, so she said okay, even though she was skeptical herself. She saw towers by the sea and Jon suggested Eastwatch. Mel had been to Eastwatch, and recalled it looking different, but since Jon had suggested  that maybe it was, so she said okay to that as well. Here's the text, which Makk thoughtfully provided (and annotated) near the top of the discussion:

4 hours ago, Makk said:

"We've had a raven from Ser Denys Mallister at the Shadow Tower," Jon Snow told her. "His men have seen fires in the mountains on the far side of the Gorge. Wildlings massing, Ser Denys believes. He thinks they are going to try to force the Bridge of Skulls again."

“Some may.” Could the skulls in her vision have signified this bridge? Somehow Melisandre did not think so. “If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall.”

“Eastwatch?”

Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch, my lord.”

Clearly, she doesn't have some plan of influence; she's more or less going with the flow. There have been repeated suggestions that Melisandre is not as young as she looks; that without her ruby-induced glamour, she's actually an ancient crone. I'd say, if so, she's not "ancient and wise"; it's more likely "ancient and senile."

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, Makk said:

She doesn't really know but she pretends she does about quite an important matter. I also feel she is also lying about her bond with Ghost, but that hasn't been revealed so I can't really use that.

The stuff about the skulls I will have to get back to you after I read the chapter context again. The direwolf, Ghost, took a likin' to Mel.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI    Jon let out a white breath. "He is not always so …"

"… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow." Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. "Ghost," he called. "To me."

The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger. <snip> Jon frowned in disbelief. "That's … queer."

"You think so?" She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it."   I am not a wolf, he thought. "And how would I do that?"

 

Mel had been trying to seduce Jon Snow. He saw through her Ygritte glamour. As the Kindly Man told Arya "Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes."

I will repeat part of the quote that I posted earlier--- all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke.  A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

Ghost, for some reason did not seem to take Mel as a threat.

 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Or, possibly, she is telling the questioner what she wants him to hear.

Like a fortune teller.

[The Mother of The Others]

How would the ygrette glamor have "succeeded?"     He so glad to see her that he forgets she's dead?    Partial lobotomy of reasoning center until she gets her way?

I get more fun out of believing she cut short the fates of 3 kings and it was no big deal for her.   Like, magic can kill 3 people easy, but kings are different?   Only for us who'd not be able to cut through their body guards.   For her, the whole king thing doesn't add as much difficulty to it, and having access to royal blood as an ingredient keyed the magic in on her targets like a sniffer dog spots drugs.   She just nudges fate to create a bad luck storm around each.   Ta da.  The universe didnt care one way or the other who won the war, so i doubt there were cosmic forces protecting the divine right of those kings to live on.   Nothing opposed her nudge.  Easy- ish.   Perfect example of how the Wall boosts your powers, too!

 

I don't find much fascination in her burning more characters.  Did that.  Ready to see her do something actually interesting.  Make the Wall plot live up to the hype.  Find with wise counsel the real enemy and hit them in the metaphysical crotch is what she can contribute.  And can't shireen do something compelling while also continuing to breathe?    Turn her scales into a hot commodity during a plague outbreak or something cool like that.

[bent branch]

8 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Or, possibly, she is telling the questioner what she wants him to hear.

Yes, sometimes she is telling them what she wants them to hear.

[sweetsunray]

I've been wondering why Mel wanted Edric Storm so much in order to "wake the stone dragon". Yes, I agree that she saw the death of the 3 kings and used the leeches with Edric's blood to trick Stannis into believing she had the power to make it happen, and more.

But did she see a vision of a boy looking like Edric (either Edric, Gendry or another bastard of Robert) going up in flame and one of Dany's three dragons? After all she saw Stannis's defeat at the Blackwater at the hands of "Renly". She believes she has the power to prevent that Blackwater vision coming to pass, has Renly killed by shadow magic, and what happens - exactly what she saw, except it's Garlan wearing Renly's armor, and the Tyrells having joined the Lannisters in anger over the murder of Renly.

The issue with Mel is that while she has correct visions, not only does she misinterprete them, she also believes she sees those visions are evidence on how instrumental and powerful she is. So, if she saw a vision of one of Robert's bastards dying in flame with a dragon (likely Drogon who looks black) taking wing, it would be sooooooooooooooo Mel to think Drogon is one of the stone dragons of Dragonstone coming alive AFTER the burning of the bastard, and thus her absolute certainty that eventually Stannis will give her the boy to burn. It's sooooooooooooooo Mel to never realize that the dragon is already alive and that the bastard burns because Drogon BBQd him.

So speculative prediction: Edric ends up with Dany (hostage or ally), and on Dragonstone, where he attempts to steal Drogon and ends up toast. After all, Edric is a brave boy who also believes he is entitled to certain things, having that Renly "look at me" attitude.

[Clegane'sPup]

23 hours ago, Makk said:

She doesn't really know but she pretends she does about quite an important matter.

Yep, I agree she hemmed and hawed about the towers by the sea thing.

When I went back and read her chapter again I realized how busy it was. A lot going on in there.

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The issue with Mel is that while she has correct visions, not only does she misinterprete them, she also believes she sees those visions are evidence on how instrumental and powerful she is.

I agree with this also. The example you gave about Renly was spot on.