Here's Why Sansa's repressed memory of Blackwater manifests into the Unkiss

[Houseofthedirewolves]

•During the Battle of Blackwater Bay after the Hound intruded into her room, the thought of being kissed by the Hound frightened her. She closed her eyes accepting that she wouldn't be able to fight him off and just wanted it over with. This leads to the Hound holding a knife to her throat. So in a way, her mistaken assumption that the Hound was going to kiss her is the 'Unkiss' that actually triggers the altered version of the Unkiss.

 

 He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened.

Notice it is after this moment that the situation turns particularly traumatic for Sansa. After she closes her eyes believing that she is about to be kissed.

“Still can't bear to look, can you?” she heard him say.  He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her down and shoving her down on the bed. “I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your life.”

This mistaken idea of a kiss on Sansa's part escalated the Hound's anger, causing him to grow violent (that's the only way to describe shoving a young girl on a bed and holding a knife to her throat) THIS is the moment Sansa starts fearing for her life.

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind.

please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, Please don’t.  She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again

 

The period between Sansa believing the Hound would kiss her to when she finally ends her song (still fearing that he would kill her) was the peak of her trauma.

 

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking

 

This is why her mind is so wrapped up on a kiss. Because it was the mistaken assumption of a kiss that led to the most traumatic parts of the Blackwater incident.

 

Her mind alters this moment. Instead of a mistaken idea of a kiss resulting in her being thrown on the bed and a knife held to her throat, her mind recalls an actual kiss. A romantic one. One that no longer frightens her.

 

Reality: mistakenly believed she would be kissed and closed her eyes → led to viciously being pulled down, shoved on the bed → knife held to throat → fearing for her life → forced to sing

First Altered memory → actually kissed → forced to sing-> (she still remembers he threatened to kill her)

He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song. (see how her mind starts altering things?)

By the time she's at the Vale, this false memory is the truth. She truly believes that this is what happened. She has even further romanticized it.

She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa.

 

Changing the association of the Hound kissing her from one that resulted in trauma and fear for her life, and turning it into something romantic and pleasant, allows her to erase the trauma. Erase the fear. And maintain a pleasant memory of her protector who she still needs. Crisis averted.

[zandru]

We all go around and around on this one. I think more data is needed. For example:

*  What will Sansa do when she learns that "Sandor Clegane" has turned bandit and is terrorizing the Riverlands, and has raped and brutalized children, even ripping into their flesh with his fierce teeth as he rapes them? If Sansa really is "Beauty" (of "and the Beast"), and she loves him, she'll rush to his aid. But this would be out of character for her.

*   What will Sansa do if she learns Sandor has been traveling around with her little sister, Arya? How will she feel? Glad that Arya was safe and protected? Afraid for her? Jealous?

The information we have is subject to some serious interpretation differences, to put it mildly. I am partial to Sansa's "altered memory" argument, as HouseoftheDireWolves presents it - and George RR has, in fact, confirmed it. I see the altered memory as evidence that Sansa is becoming more like Cersei, believing that what she wants to be true actually is, and is a warning for her character development. Now that Sansa is under Littlefinger's wing, this could be a very bad thing, as Sansa is being trained in seduction (by that old whore monger Petyr), manipulation, and deceit - and so far, she's successfully justified it to herself.

Others will defend the big romance and love story, the "SanSan". I expect a fair amount of heat, and hope for a little light, too.

[ravenous reader]

Why are you creating another OP about exactly the same thing?  (people may start to wonder if you're obsessed...)

I don't think there's enough evidence yet to jump from sexual fantasy to psychosis.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Why are you creating another OP about exactly the same thing?  (people may start to wonder if you're obsessed...)

I don't think there's enough evidence yet to jump from sexual fantasy to psychosis.

I was going to erase it but I realized there's no way to. So *shrugs shoulder*. I'm just ignoring the thread since I already agreed to disagree. 

[ravenous reader]

16 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

I was going to erase it but I realized there's no way to. So *shrugs shoulder*. I'm just ignoring the thread since I already agreed to disagree. 

Why do you want to erase it?  I thought it was an interesting discussion.  

Have you seen my last post over there?  You may be 'right' -- well, partially on the right track...

[Houseofthedirewolves]

20 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Why do you want to erase it?  I thought it was an interesting discussion.  

Have you seen my last post over there?  You may be 'right' -- well, partially on the right track...

 I read it. All of the theories just make me anxious for George to release the next book. Strangely, I would be disappointed if Sansa was to betray the Hound. But the thought of her betraying her family again is too much to think about. Even if it ends up being Sweetrobin. 

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Strangely, I would be disappointed if Sansa was to betray the Hound.

I know.  Life's complicated like that... 

As far as her family -- she's already betrayed her family several times.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

I've never gotten involved in  Sansa/ Sandor thread before so forgive any potential naivety....

Is there anything mileage that something bad happened the night Of The backwater and that her initial recollection is complete denial and afterwards she allows bits of recollecon to seep back In but is still repressing the true memory.

Is Sandor's dagger metal or flesh and is it pressed against her throat or somewhere else? She keeps the blood stained cloak, is it stained with his blood or hers?  Suspect this is old ground but wondered what people's thoughts were?

[zandru]

52 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Is Sandor's dagger metal or flesh and is it pressed against her throat or somewhere else? She keeps the blood stained cloak, is it stained with his blood or hers?

Ewwwww. You might just want to re-read the passage and make your own decision on it.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I've never gotten involved in  Sansa/ Sandor thread before so forgive any potential naivety....

You enter this discourse at your own peril...

Quote

Is there anything mileage that something bad happened the night Of The backwater and that her initial recollection is complete denial and afterwards she allows bits of recollecon to seep back In but is still repressing the true memory.

Is Sandor's dagger metal or flesh and is it pressed against her throat or somewhere else? She keeps the blood stained cloak, is it stained with his blood or hers?  Suspect this is old ground but wondered what people's thoughts were?

That's a good question -- one GRRM intends us to ask by framing the whole event via the 'unreliable narrator,' i.e. Sansa.  My speculation is that he might be setting up the conditions for a 'he said-she said' in future, e.g. a trial against Sandor in which Sansa accuses him of rape and produces the bloody cloak.  GRRM cleverly describes the encounter in the stylised terms of a symbolic rape, which might just as well be interpreted as the repression of an actual rape -- as you've mentioned, the pointy end pressed against her, the wetness she feels that was not blood, the sound of some fabric tearing in the dark (a reference to the torn maidenhead), the bloody white cloak signifying the same, the 'song' he extracted from her (Sansa's vocalizations, whatever the reader may construe them to be...screaming, etc.).

The thing is:  we also have Sandor's account for comparison, whom I consider to be a more reliable narrator than Sansa.  If Sandor had raped Sansa, however, he would have confessed the lurid details of it to Arya, in an attempt to goad her into killing him.  Instead, he says:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya XIII

His eyes opened. "You remember where the heart is?" he asked in a hoarse whisper.

As still as stone she stood. "I . . . I was only . . . "

"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . . "

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

The Hound watched her saddle Craven through eyes bright with fever. Not once did he attempt to rise and stop her. But when she mounted, he said, "A real wolf would finish a wounded animal."

Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they'll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. "You shouldn't have hit me with an axe," she said. "You should have saved my mother." She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

I don't think he's lying about anything here -- nor would he lie, especially not in this moment so close to death.  Given that he's trying to rouse Arya to anger in an effort to persuade her to kill him, in fact it would have served him to embellish not underplay his sins.  Instead, he gives an honest confession, no more no less.  Sandor Clegane is guilty of many things, but he's not a hypocrite -- he hates liars.  If anyone's going to end up lying about what happened between them the night of the Blackwater, I predict it's going to be Sansa (she's already fabricated a kiss that never happened).  It's noteworthy too that in all the time he spent alone with Arya, the worst thing he ever did to her that Arya can come up with is that he hit her with an axe, which we know was in order to prevent her from rushing wolfbloodedly headlong into the scene of the Red Wedding and getting herself killed.  In the final summation, Arya's accusation comes off as rather anticlimactic, paltry and petulant.  He actually treated her pretty well, under the circumstances, and Arya knows it -- so she forbears from killing him, persuading herself it's to make him suffer.  Once again, it's the Stark who is mistaken, skewing the details, or outright lying to herself about what happened -- not Sandor.

[Ygrain]

I don't think Sandor lies, either, but I do agree that the imagery of the scene is pretty much that of rape. Might it be possible that someone else took advantage of her, and the brutal Unkiss that she remembers is actually the only echo of that other whom she does not remember and whose image is overlaid by that of Sandor? However, who? We are presented with three men lusting Sansa - Sandor, Joffrey and LF. Sandor, by his own admission, didn't do it. Joffrey wouldn't have shut up about it. LF was not there - or was he? We know that he reached KL with Tyrells and Tywin's forces and was with them before the battle began, because he was the one suggesting that Garlan should put on Renly's armour. But after that? Would it be too much for a stretch to assume that the man who can snuck out of the Red Keep, might want to snuck in to check on "young Cat"? After Sandor leaves, Sansa lies on the floor under his cloak, shivering, and she loses track of time until she hears a bell tolling. If LF found her like that, perhaps asleep or passed out from emotional exhaustion, what would he do?

Just recently, I read again GRRM saying that the Unkiss is going to lead to some plot point concerning Sansa's unreliable memory, and I can't think of a way the Unkiss would be really significant. But, say, if Sansa was found not a virgin on her wedding night with Harry? And/Or actually remembered her "daddy" LF being the one kissing her,or worse, back then?

Even the repression would work here, IMHO, substituting the kiss from the man who raped her, by the kiss from the man who did not, and it would be sort of a parallel/opposite to LF losing his virginity while mistaking Lysa for Cat

 

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

You enter this discourse at your own peril...

That's a good question -- one GRRM intends us to ask by framing the whole event via the 'unreliable narrator,' i.e. Sansa.  My speculation is that he might be setting up the conditions for a 'he said-she said' in future, e.g. a trial against Sandor in which Sansa accuses him of rape and produces the bloody cloak.  GRRM cleverly describes the encounter in the stylised terms of a symbolic rape, which might just as well be interpreted as the repression of an actual rape -- as you've mentioned, the pointy end pressed against her, the wetness she feels that was not blood, the sound of some fabric tearing in the dark (a reference to the torn maidenhead), the bloody white cloak signifying the same, the 'song' he extracted from her (Sansa's vocalizations, whatever the reader may construe them to be...screaming, etc.).

The thing is:  we also have Sandor's account for comparison, whom I consider to be a more reliable narrator than Sansa.  If Sandor had raped Sansa, however, he would have confessed the lurid details of it to Arya, in an attempt to goad her into killing him.  Instead, he says:

I don't think he's lying about anything here -- nor would he lie, especially not in this moment so close to death.  Given that he's trying to rouse Arya to anger in an effort to persuade her to kill him, in fact it would have served him to embellish not underplay his sins.  Instead, he gives an honest confession, no more no less.  Sandor Clegane is guilty of many things, but he's not a hypocrite -- he hates liars.  If anyone's going to end up lying about what happened between them the night of the Blackwater, I predict it's going to be Sansa (she's already fabricated a kiss that never happened).  It's noteworthy too that in all the time he spent alone with Arya, the worst thing he ever did to her that Arya can come up with is that he hit her with an axe, which we know was in order to prevent her from rushing wolfbloodedly headlong into the scene of the Red Wedding and getting herself killed.  In the final summation, Arya's accusation comes off as rather anticlimactic, paltry and petulant.  He actually treated her pretty well, under the circumstances, and Arya knows it -- so she forbears from killing him, persuading herself it's to make him suffer.  Once again, it's the Stark who is mistaken, skewing the details, or outright lying to herself about what happened -- not Sandor.

"... but after a moment the hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking." Sansa COC

"I meant to take her too. I should have." Arya SOS.

Perhaps it was a near miss, he started then stopped. Certainly very ambiguous and brilliantly written to be perfecly so. Oh George you tricksy bird!

Ygrain raises a great point about what might happen if Sansa comes to Harry's bed deflowered....

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

29 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

one GRRM intends us to ask by framing the whole event via the 'unreliable narrator,' i.e. Sansa.  My speculation is that he might be setting up the conditions for a 'he said-she said' in future, e.g. a trial against Sandor in which Sansa accuses him of rape and produces the bloody cloak.  GRRM cleverly describes the encounter in the stylised terms of a symbolic rape, which might just as well be interpreted as the repression of an actual rape -- as you've mentioned, the pointy end pressed against her, the wetness she feels that was not blood, the sound of some fabric tearing in the dark (a reference to the torn maidenhead), the bloody white cloak signifying the same, the 'song' he extracted from her (Sansa's vocalizations, whatever the reader may construe them to be...screaming, etc.).

Well... considering he can't show his face outside the QI because he's already wanted for the Saltpans massacre, it's pretty safe to say he would be killed on sight.  I don't think there's anyone in the Riverlands who is going to say "wait, let's give him a trial just in case there's more people that need to come forward about the Hound raping them."  Brienne wasn't going to.  Stoneheart certainly wouldn't.  Lots of people would love to brag they slew the Hound.  How exactly is Sansa going to accuse the Hound of raping her when she can't reveal her own identity because everyone believes still she murdered Joffrey?  Highly unlikely she still has the bloody cloak.  I've read the theory about dying it green; however, I think that idea only showed it could have been done, but no proof that it was actually true.  I would think George would lay some more hints about it if it were such a significant object.  Besides, that was a lot of blood on that cloak, way more than "wedding night" blood.  If her injuries were extensive enough to cause that much blood, someone would have noticed.   

So there's a symbollic rape --> false memory of a "real" kiss (where she initially says she kissed him) ---> which is actually a repression of a "real" rape that is also a false memory underlying that ---> because Sansa was on some level picking up on the metaphors as the Blackwater was happening?  She thought at that point the song was literal until the Marillion incident when she learned what it actually meant.  I don't think anyone thought Marillion wanted to hear her "screams."  As gross as he is, it was clear song = moans or sighs.  Before that she was conceiving of a kiss only, not actual sex.  It actually isn't a a symbolic rape because she had his dagger pressed against her.  She could feel it but the dagger never broke her skin.  She was never penetrated symbolically or otherwise.  Ygritte, on the other hand, did get pricked by Jon's dagger and they ended up literally boning and no one took Jon for symbolically raping Ygritte.  The only difference being that Jon was the virgin.  Jaime's sword got blood on Brienne's thigh and they were in an actual brawl where one of them could have gotten seriously hurt or killed.  No one read that as Jaime raping Brienne.  All that scene's metaphoric elements describe is her simply not being ready.  There's some "wetness" but she's also "dry" and "tight."  Being "dry" doesn't mean the man is a rapist.  Just means she needs more time and she's not ready to be penetrated by anyone.  That's pretty much any woman.  The bloody cloak and torn fabric comes after he's broken contact and leaving the room.       

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't think he's lying about anything here -- nor would he lie, especially not in this moment so close to death.  Given that he's trying to rouse Arya to anger in an effort to persuade her to kill him, in fact it would have served him to embellish not underplay his sins.  Instead, he gives an honest confession, no more no less.  Sandor Clegane is guilty of many things, but he's not a hypocrite -- he hates liars.  If anyone's going to end up lying about what happened between them the night of the Blackwater, I predict it's going to be Sansa (she's already fabricated a kiss that never happened).

Yeah, he can be full of shit too.  All that posturing and blustering about the weak need to die and get out of the way of those that can protect themselves.  If he truly believed that he wouldn't have tried to save Sansa in the riot and he wouldn't have bothered even looking for Lollys Stokeworth, which he did.   So as long as he has his sword there's no man he need fear, which Sansa correctly thinking "except your brother."  He does call himself a hypocrite for standing there in his white cloak while they beat her.  Despite his hatred of knights, he does believe the white cloak stood for certain values that he fell short on.  So if he's being honest about his intent to rape Sansa and wishes he did, why does he care then if Sansa was raped by Tyrion?  Why does that idea set him sobbing?  Like my biggest regret in life is the girl I wanted to rape getting raped by someone else?  

So if the unkiss is a genuine false memory, how then can she "lie?"  You can't lie about something you honestly and sincerely believe is the truth to the best of your knowledge.  And if he for sure intended to rape her, just "something" held him back for some unknown reason, then we shouldn't feel bad for him if he gets accused of it.  I certainly don't feel that bad about Marillion's fate.  He not only attempted a rape on Sansa, 3 servants were dismissed from the Eyrie for making allegations that he assaulted them, plus he was actively helping Aunt Crazy try to murder Sansa.  It's not justice that he didn't get convicted of what he actually did, but I'm not moved to be sympathetic either.  So if Sandor admits to killing Mycah and that he wanted to rape Sansa, I shouldn't feel that bad if she unwittingly "betrays" him with a false recounting of the Blackwater that she believes actually happened.  If that happened, I'm not even sure he would even argue the point with her considering the guilt he feels with his dying words.    

And GRRM in interviews when asked about the unkiss has been highly evasive.  He only keeps repeating that he used an unreliable narrator.  There's one interview he's specifically asked about "Sansan" and he says "there's something there" and "I've played with that."  The simplest explanation that I think will end up happening with the unkiss is that she puts the moves on him or kisses him, much to his shock because he left thinking that she couldn't bare to look at him still.  That's how she told it the very first time:  that she kissed him.  Why do we need to jump to elaborate speculations about some sort of trial happening when it just might be that simple?  

    

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

LF was not there - or was he? We know that he reached KL with Tyrells and Tywin's forces and was with them before the battle began, because he was the one suggesting that Garlan should put on Renly's armour. But after that? Would it be too much for a stretch to assume that the man who can snuck out of the Red Keep, might want to snuck in to check on "young Cat"? After Sandor leaves, Sansa lies on the floor under his cloak, shivering, and she loses track of time until she hears a bell tolling. If LF found her like that, perhaps asleep or passed out from emotional exhaustion, what would he do?

Well that sure is inconvenient if he did that because he kinda needs her virginity to wed Sansa Stark to Harrold Hardyng.  Annulling her marriage would be riding on some proof it was never consummated.  Tyrion has failed to turn up dead and widow her as he had assumed would happen.  There's not one thing that supports this idea.    

[Meera of Tarth]

9 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

I was going to erase it but I realized there's no way to. So *shrugs shoulder*. I'm just ignoring the thread since I already agreed to disagree. 

Maybe you could ask a mod

I think that the previous thread about the same topic offered lots of insight that otherwise could get lost.

Page 12 of the thread...same explanation:

Quote

 

"It's obvious that the incident, as a whole IS NOT  AS TRAUMATIC, right?" 

•The thought of being kissed by the Hound frightened her. She closed her eyes accepting that she wouldn't be able to fight him off and just wanted it over with. This leads to the Hound holding a knife to her throat. So in a way, her mistaken assumption that the Hound was going to kiss her is the 'Unkiss' that actually triggers the altered version of the Unkiss.

 

 He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened.

Notice it is after this moment that the situation turns particularly traumatic for Sansa. After she closes her eyes believing that she is about to be kissed.

“Still can't bear to look, can you?” she heard him say.  He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her down and shoving her down on the bed. “I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your life.”

This mistaken idea of a kiss on Sansa's part escalated the Hound's anger, causing him to grow violent (that's the only way to describe shoving a young girl on a bed and holding a knife to her throat) THIS is the moment Sansa starts fearing for her life.

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind.

please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, Please don’t.  She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again

 

The period between Sansa believing the Hound would kiss her to when she finally ends her song (still fearing that he would kill her) was the peak of her trauma.

 

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking

 

This is why her mind is so wrapped up on a kiss. Because it was the mistaken assumption of a kiss that led to the most traumatic parts of the Blackwater incident.

 

Her mind alters this moment. Instead of a mistaken idea of a kiss resulting in her being thrown on the bed and a knife held to her throat, her mind recalls an actual kiss. A romantic one. One that no longer frightens her.

 

Reality: mistakenly believed she would be kissed and closed her eyes → led to viciously being pulled down, shoved on the bed → knife held to throat → fearing for her life → forced to sing

First Altered memory → actually kissed → forced to sing-> (she still remembers he threatened to kill her)

He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song. (see how her mind starts altering things?)

By the time she's at the Vale, this false memory is the truth. She truly believes that this is what happened. She has even furtherromanticized it.

She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa.

 

Changing the association of the Hound kissing her from one that resulted in trauma and fear for her life, and turning it into something romantic and pleasant, allows her to erase the trauma. Erase the fear. And maintain a pleasant memory of her protector who she still needs. Crisis averted

 

Thread:

 

[Le Cygne]

42 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The simplest explanation that I think will end up happening with the unkiss is that she puts the moves on him or kisses him, much to his shock because he left thinking that she couldn't bare to look at him still.  That's how she told it the very first time:  that she kissed him.  Why do we need to jump to elaborate speculations about some sort of trial happening when it just might be that simple? 

This. It's a sexual awakening story based on Beauty and the Beast. (Cocteau clip here and more Cocteau and Beauty and the Beast here.) Sansa's enjoying the heck out of the whole thing.

The Blackwater scene was a symbolic marriage night. Everything was there, the tall strong man giving her his cloak and (thanks to Sansa) kissing her. That's her thousand times dream.

It's symbolic foreshadowing, a hint of what's to come. And that night is called back to in her dreams and then she places Sandor in the marriage bed because of how he kissed her.

She caresses his face. She gets under his cloak and the bells ring in hills and hollows (classic FEMALE orgasm imagery). Then she puts his cloak in a cedar chest (a hope chest) with her summer silks.

Let's reach for that SIMPLE explanation first, since we have a ton of evidence to support it. GRRM is constantly teasing SanSan. Someone asked about their future and he WINKED.

By the way GRRM put a picture of them riding off together on his website... it's a romantic depiction of this night. He also requested a picture of this night just like the Cocteau picture for a calendar.

(And he has that picture prominently placed in his office, by the way.)

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

This. It's a sexual awakening story based on Beauty and the Beast. (Cocteau clip here and more Cocteau and Beauty and the Beast here.) Sansa's enjoying the heck out of the whole thing.

The Blackwater scene was a symbolic marriage night. Everything was there, the tall strong man giving her his cloak and (thanks to Sansa) kissing her. That's her thousand times dream.

It's symbolic foreshadowing, a hint of what's to come. And that night is called back to in her dreams and then she places him in the marriage bed because of how he kissed her.

She caresses his face. She gets under his cloak and the bells ring in hills and hollows (classic FEMALE orgasm imagery). Then she puts his cloak in a cedar chest (a hope chest) with her summer silks.

Sansa is going to climb Sandor like a tree when she sees him again. That's what the unkiss means. Keep It Simple Silly. A kiss is just a kiss, the fundamental things apply as time goes by.

Let's reach for that SIMPLE explanation first, since we have a ton of evidence to support it. GRRM is constantly teasing SanSan. Someone asked about their future and he WINKED.

It's a beautiful story. Let's not overly complicate it with nasty stuff, when there's a perfectly obvious and quite nice explanation.

By the way GRRM put a picture of them riding off together on his website... it's a romantic depiction of this night. He also requested a picture of this night just like the Cocteau picture for a calendar.

(And he has that picture prominently placed in his office, by the way.)

Thank you!  And this doesn't equal happily ever after.  I do think George loves a good fairy tale, but he also wants to deconstruct it and rebuild it better.  I do believe he is a romantic, but he's against portraying romance in fantasy in juvenile, overly idealistic ways.  That's why he keeps the symbolic imagery in the background, not that they have an epic idealistic romance going on literally.  What he actually has going on between them in the foreground are two people from different social statuses that have chemistry in spite of their differences, they stumble upon a level of intimacy and mutual support, but they also have issues between them.  Problematic issues.  Good!  That's realistic! That's a story!  Give them glaring faults on both sides that they challenge each other on.  Let there be conflict!  That makes their dynamic interesting and not sugary sweet.  Not a harlequin paperback.  

Honestly, have you ever seen the 80's tv show of Beauty and the Beast George wrote for?  OMG is it cheesy and saccharin.  He even said he visualized Ron Perlman who played the beast on that show as a possible actor to portray Sandor.  Terrible idea, but his mind was there.  He does love that Cocteau movie very much and you are right he did specifically request that artwork based on the film.  The beast's castle is also full of dog statues and not shy about the sexual imagery.  Not just the dagger, but the lapping up of water from her cupped hands.  

I just think it's funny too how many people try to tell Sansa songs are stupid (and how many readers accept that as wisdom), but consider the sources:  Littlefinger, Cersei, Tyrion (who is at that time mostly a rationalist, but still loves dragons), and Sandor when he's being his most jaded.  It's like Jorah and LF mocking or disdaining Ned Stark's honor when Jorah and LF have no honor.  While Sansa's belief in the songs and stories has definitely been recalibrated by harsh experience, she doesn't believe that they are all lies.  Sometimes there are good people in the world who do extraordinarily good things that warrant a song written about them.  That's true in real life.  It's not common but it does happen.  There actually are true knights in the series, Brienne being the best of them imo.  Most knights will fall short in someway, but doesn't mean the ideals are stupid or worthless.  The stories do mean something and they do set a high but not impossible standard.  I like that Sansa pushes back against cynicism and nihilism.  It's wise to understand how the world works and not have naive and simplistic ideas about how things ought to be, but it's also wrong to just accept things as they are and settle for it.