Jon, Wylla, and Meera: A Comprehensive Theory of the Secret Babies of Starfall

[Rhae_Valarie]

So here’s my theory:

While living at King’s Landing as a companion to Princess Elia, Ashara Dayne was raped by the Mad King Aerys. Why? I believe for several reasons:

 1. The first is simply that Ashara was very beautiful, with the traditionally Targaryen feature of purple eyes. I think it would be within what we know about Aerys’ character to covet such a woman. We’ve also seen hints through details about his interactions with Joanna Lannister as well as Ser Barristan’s memories of his treatment of Rhaella that Aerys was violent and already a rapist.

2. It was a deliberate act to provoke Arthur Dayne. Arthur was a legendary knight and Rhaegar’s greatest supporter. We’ve been told that the conflict between Rhaegar and Aerys was reaching civil war proportions. Depriving Rhaegar of his greatest ally would be a smart move on Aerys’ part, but Arthur was a Kingsguard, who serve for life. Dismissing him out of turn would alienate Aerys’ supporters and weaken his own hand. The only way for Aerys to get rid of Arthur would be to provoke him to an act of treason and then execute him. I think that, in Aerys evil, twisted mind, raping Ashara would incite Arthur to seek vengeance, thus opening the door for Aerys to legally kill him.

Clearly, however, Arthur Dayne was never executed for treason. I believe that, in order to foil Aerys’ plan and remain as a valuable ally to Rhaegar, Arthur chose not to defend or avenge his sister, essentially choosing loyalty to Rhaegar over loyalty to his family. I believe that once Ashara became pregnant, she was sent back to Starfall to her parents. Upon discovering that Arthur betrayed his sister, his parents disowned him. Why? There isn’t much textual evidence at this point but it explains one inexplicable aspect of the series so far, which is: Why would the Daynes name their heir after Ned Stark? 

One the surface, they should hate him. Most of the people in universe seem think that either he or Brandon impregnated Ashara. Then the Starks rose up on the opposite side of a Rebellion than the Daynes, Ned’s buddy kills the Prince that they support, Ned kills their pride and joy, Ser Arthur Dayne, which supposedly causes Ashara to kill herself. They should hate him and the other Starks. But instead they seem to respect him enough to name Edric “Ned” Dayne after him. Clearly, these events haven’t quite gone down the way we’ve been told. There is something more to the story.

 

If what I have stated about Aerys, Ashara, and Arthur is true, then the Daynes might respect Ned because he killed Arthur. If they blamed him for failing his sister and disowned him, they probably wanted Dawn back, to save for a worthier Dayne. Ned killed Arthur, avenged Ashara, and brought Dawn back to Starfall. But beyond that, if Ashara had just given birth to Aerys’ bastard, I believe Ned offered to protect the baby, keeping its identity secret from Robert. We know that Robert and Ned differed greatly on the subject of dead Targ kids, after all. In this scenario, Ned would have protected Ashara and her baby, doing everything that Arthur failed to do, thus earning the admiration of the Daynes. It also helps explain why Ashara killed herself. She probably had PTSD, postpartum depression, and maybe even blamed herself for Arthur’s death. 

But if Ashara had Aerys’ baby, why does everyone think she was knocked up by a Stark? Why does everyone believe that Jon Snow was born to a woman at Starfall, either Wylla or Ashara? And what happened to Ashara’s baby? To answer those questions, we have to examine the three women that were pregnant and gave birth at the same time, in roughly the same geographic location, and whose babies were all at Starfall at the same time, when they were only a few days old. Let’s take a look:

Lyanna Stark:

Most people are on board with R+L=J at this point, so I’m not going to rehash. For the purposes of this theory, let’s just stipulate that Lyanna was impregnated by Rhaegar and gave birth to Jon Snow, who Ned brought back to Starfall from the Tower of Joy.

 

Wylla the Wet Nurse:

So we don’t know much about Wylla the Wet Nurse's baby except that she must have been pregnant at this time in order for Ned to pass Jon off as Wylla’s. So what happened to her child and who was the father? 

 

Ashara Dayne:

Impregnated by Aerys, gave birth at Starfall, baby protected and concealed by Ned Stark. But how?

 

So here it goes: Some people think that Ned knocked up Ashara, others think Wylla. Barristan Selmy strongly implies that Brandon got Ashara pregnant, but I believe that Brandon got Wylla pregnant. Then, with all these secret pregnancies happening at the same time and place, rumors started getting tangled up and the babies/ baby daddies got attributed to the wrong people.  

(Of course, there is little textual evidence to support this. It’s largely circumstantial. But it fits very well and, with two books still to go, there is plenty of time for the textual evidence to still be unveiled.)

So let’s take a look at Wylla the Wet Nurse. We don’t know much about her, except that, like Ashara and Lyanna, she must have been pregnant in 283 AC, or no one would believe that she was Jon’s mother, which many people do believe. Because of her pregnancy in 283 AC, I think it’s highly unlikely that she was already a wet nurse at this time, because lactation suppresses pregnancy. The most likely course of events is that her pregnancy in 283 AC was her first, after which she began working as a wet nurse and continued to do so at least until Ned Dayne was born, in 287.

So then, what was her role at Starfall, prior to becoming a wet nurse in 283? Add this to the list of stuff that we’ll hopefully find out in Winds, but I’m going to suggest that she was a low born lady, raised as a companion/ladies’ maid to Ashara and Allyria Dayne, much like Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel’s relationship to Sansa Stark. Wylla’s name appears to be a Manderly family name, so I believe she has a connection to the Manderlys. Could she be a bastard of that family, sent to serve the ladies of Starfall and lead a comfortable life there? Could she be the legitimate younger daughter of a less important branch of the Manderly tree? We can’t yet know, but I would say that the connection is there. 

The real question, however, is whether Wylla was around Brandon in order to begin a relationship with him. The evidence is inconclusive. If she was a serving lady at Starfall, I think it is likely that she was at the Tourney of Harrenhal. It is possible that she accompanied Ashara to King’s Landing, just as Jeyne and Beth accompanied Sansa. So when Ashara went to the tourney, Wylla followed. However, it is also possible that Wylla remained at Starfall with Allyria who went to the Tourney with the other Daynes in order to visit her sister and watch her brother compete. After all, the entire Stark family was present, so it seems like the Tourney was supposed to be a family friendly affair.

If we can assume that Wylla was at Harrenhal, we can also assume that she began her relationship with Brandon there. However, the relationship would have had to continue over 282 in order for her to give birth in 283. There isn’t really any information regarding this except that Brandon was in Riverrun during part of 282, before his death. So how this timeline works I’m not quite sure, but I will say this: In order for Ned to convince people that Wylla was Jon’s mother, he would have had to convince them that he and Wylla were in the same geographic location 9 months before, in order to have had conceived Jon. So if Wylla was near Ned at that time, it is likely she was near Brandon as well. We’ll simply have to wait for the next book to know for sure how it went down.

 

So that brings us back to Starfall, in the year 283 AC. Wylla has just given birth to Brandon Stark’s child, Ashara to Aerys Targaryen’s. Ashara names the baby girl Wylla, after her best friend. Think about it. The two women grew up together, they were both pregnant at the same time, in the same castle, during a war (of which they were kinda on the losing side). They were both scared and alone. Also Aerys not only raped Ashara, but murdered the father of Wylla’s child, so they both really hated him. Considering Ashara’s fate, I think it’s fair to assume that she would have been very distressed during this time and the support of her friend, the only person who could understand what she was going through, meant the the world to her. So much so that she named her child after her.

 

But then Ned returns from the Tower of Joy and everything just sort of implodes. Ashara, already struggling from all she has been through, kills herself out of guilt for her brother’s death. Ned, already struggling to conceal Jon’s identity, now has to relocate all three of Starfall’s newborns, so that their identities won’t be discovered.

 

1. Jon Snow - Jon is clearly the priority. He’s the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, which is enough for Robert to want him dead. But he is also a boy, and Daemon Blackfyre and his entire line proves that even Targ bastards are dangerous. Jon is in the most danger, so Ned takes him to Winterfell, where he can be safe under Ned’s watchful eye. But he has to pretend that Wylla is the mother, which means that Wylla’s real child has to be hidden to conceal that Jon is not really her’s. So Wylla’s baby is…

 

2. Meera Reed - Look, I understand the urge to scream that “NOT EVERYONE IS SOMEONE ELSE!”, I really do. But in this case, no matter how you attribute the babies of Starfall and their parentage, Howland always takes the second baby. He’s already knee deep in the whole thing and you want to keep a secret as small as possible. Ned would never have brought another person into it. He didn’t even tell his wife. Also at this point, we have to understand that the secret is already too big. Ned knows, Howland knows, the Daynes probably knew the second they saw Ned return without Lyanna but with a baby. And Wylla knows because she’s doing her best to convince everyone that Jon is actually her baby, which we know he is not. So rather than bring another person into it, Ned sends Wylla’s child (his niece) with his most trusted friend. Greywater Watch is already isolated from the rest of the world. There is no better place to send his niece so that his nephew can live in safety. And it lines up. Meera was born in 283 AC.

 

3. Wylla Manderly - so this just leaves Ashara’s baby, the girl that she named after her best friend, Wylla, before she died. This baby is definitely in danger, being a Targ. But less so than Jon, since she’s a girl. Unfortunately for her, however, she was born with Targ features, purple eyes and white blonde hair. Wylla the Wet Nurse suggests that Ned take Baby Wylla to White Harbor (remember how I said she probably had Manderly connections?). This seems like a good idea to Ned. The Manderlys are North Men and fiercely loyal to House Stark. Wyman may not be conventionally brave, but he has a way with secrets and conspiracies. Knowing what we now know about Wyman, I’d say Ned couldn’t have picked a better place to send Ashara’s baby. Once there, the baby even gets to keep the name her mother chose for her because it fits right in with the other Manderlys, being a Manderly name originally. Many babies have pale blonde hair, so I imagine that it wasn’t until Wylla “Manderly” got a little older and it refused to fade to a more common blonde that they began dyeing it Manderly green.

 

So I’ve already copped to the fact that most of this is circumstantial, but there is some textual evidence that strongly supports the case that I’ve laid. I’ll start with my favorite:

 

Patchface’s Prophecy:

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

Most of Patchface’s prophecies have been explained very conclusively, but this is one of the exceptions and which prompted my theory in the first place. Basically, I believe that the “flame” is a metaphor for a Targaryen. Just as flames usually burn red and orange, Targs usually have particular characteristics, the most iconic of which is the silver-gold hair. However, Patchface has had a vision of a flame that burns, not red, but green, black and blue. Translation: The prophecy refers to three Targs who have black, blue, and green hair respectively, rather than the typical silver, which allows their heritage to be concealed.

Black Flame - Jon Snow, whose true parentage was concealed by his black hair and Stark look. Think about it. If he had looked like Rhaegar, instead of Lyanna, his situation would have been much different.

Blue Flame - (f)Aegon. Whether he’s a true Targ, a Blackfyre, or some variation, he still has Targ heritage that manifests itself in silver-gold hair. He conceals this by dyeing his hair blue.

Green Flame - Wylla Manderly. The only character we’ve met in the entire series with green hair, about the same age as Jon and Meera. You’ve heard my case for the her green dye concealing Targ silver.

And the smoke rising in bubbles bit? I believe it’s a play on the saying,”Where there’s smoke there’s fire.” Basically, people were able to contain (represented by bubbles) the rumors (represented by smoke) of these children, causing the fire (Targ kids) to go undiscovered.

 

Similarities between Wylla Manderly and Dany:

If my theory is correct, Wylla and Dany are half siblings and, personally, I think it shows. When Wylla is introduced she shows great spirit, bravery, and a certain righteousness, all of which are shared by Dany. She shows natural leadership abilities. Given a few more moments to speak, this young girl would have whipped the White Harbor men into a frenzy and defied the Freys. Wyman greatly admires her fire, despite it working against his secret plans. Perhaps Ned informed him of her Targ heritage, so Wyman simply expects a little fire from his baby dragon, now and again?

 

The Name Itself: 

Before I had even thought much about the random green hair, Wylla Manderly stood out to me because of her name. The in universe explanation for Jon’s birth points to Wylla the Wet Nurse and, just one Davos POV chapter after hearing rumors about Jon’s mother, we meet a character with the same name as Jon’s “official” mother, a woman with links to Starfall to boot. Plus green hair and a certain fiery disposition? Seems suspicious to me.

 

Similarities Between Meera Reed and Arya and Lyanna:

According to my theory, Meera is Lyanna’s niece and Arya’s cousin. She seems to share these Stark ladies’ fierceness, athleticism and loyalty. She has a boyish build, like Arya. Not conclusive, but I believe it contributes to my theory.

 

 

Anyway, if you read the whole thing, thanks! I’d love to hear feedback and discuss points. I do think that there are parts of this theory that could be changed without debunking the entire thing. I argue that Meera is Wylla and Brandon’s, but she doesn’t necessarily have to be for the theory to work. I’ve also seen it suggested that Wylla Manderly is the daughter of Aerys and Wylla, but I personally don’t think it’s likely. Why would you name a child, whose parentage you are trying to hide, after one of their parents? It would be like Cersei naming her son Jaime, you know? So I presented the case I thought most likely, but I’d love to hear other variations and suggestions. Thanks again!

[The Twinslayer]

5 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

So here’s my theory:

While living at King’s Landing as a companion to Princess Elia, Ashara Dayne was raped by the Mad King Aerys. Why? I believe for several reasons:

 1. The first is simply that Ashara was very beautiful, with the traditionally Targaryen feature of purple eyes. I think it would be within what we know about Aerys’ character to covet such a woman. We’ve also seen hints through details about his interactions with Joanna Lannister as well as Ser Barristan’s memories of his treatment of Rhaella that Aerys was violent and already a rapist.

2. It was a deliberate act to provoke Arthur Dayne. Arthur was a legendary knight and Rhaegar’s greatest supporter. We’ve been told that the conflict between Rhaegar and Aerys was reaching civil war proportions. Depriving Rhaegar of his greatest ally would be a smart move on Aerys’ part, but Arthur was a Kingsguard, who serve for life. Dismissing him out of turn would alienate Aerys’ supporters and weaken his own hand. The only way for Aerys to get rid of Arthur would be to provoke him to an act of treason and then execute him. I think that, in Aerys evil, twisted mind, raping Ashara would incite Arthur to seek vengeance, thus opening the door for Aerys to legally kill him.

Clearly, however, Arthur Dayne was never executed for treason. I believe that, in order to foil Aerys’ plan and remain as a valuable ally to Rhaegar, Arthur chose not to defend or avenge his sister, essentially choosing loyalty to Rhaegar over loyalty to his family. I believe that once Ashara became pregnant, she was sent back to Starfall to her parents. Upon discovering that Arthur betrayed his sister, his parents disowned him. Why? There isn’t much textual evidence at this point but it explains one inexplicable aspect of the series so far, which is: Why would the Daynes name their heir after Ned Stark? 

One the surface, they should hate him. Most of the people in universe seem think that either he or Brandon impregnated Ashara. Then the Starks rose up on the opposite side of a Rebellion than the Daynes, Ned’s buddy kills the Prince that they support, Ned kills their pride and joy, Ser Arthur Dayne, which supposedly causes Ashara to kill herself. They should hate him and the other Starks. But instead they seem to respect him enough to name Edric “Ned” Dayne after him. Clearly, these events haven’t quite gone down the way we’ve been told. There is something more to the story.

 

If what I have stated about Aerys, Ashara, and Arthur is true, then the Daynes might respect Ned because he killed Arthur. If they blamed him for failing his sister and disowned him, they probably wanted Dawn back, to save for a worthier Dayne. Ned killed Arthur, avenged Ashara, and brought Dawn back to Starfall. But beyond that, if Ashara had just given birth to Aerys’ bastard, I believe Ned offered to protect the baby, keeping its identity secret from Robert. We know that Robert and Ned differed greatly on the subject of dead Targ kids, after all. In this scenario, Ned would have protected Ashara and her baby, doing everything that Arthur failed to do, thus earning the admiration of the Daynes. It also helps explain why Ashara killed herself. She probably had PTSD, postpartum depression, and maybe even blamed herself for Arthur’s death. 

But if Ashara had Aerys’ baby, why does everyone think she was knocked up by a Stark? Why does everyone believe that Jon Snow was born to a woman at Starfall, either Wylla or Ashara? And what happened to Ashara’s baby? To answer those questions, we have to examine the three women that were pregnant and gave birth at the same time, in roughly the same geographic location, and whose babies were all at Starfall at the same time, when they were only a few days old. Let’s take a look:

Lyanna Stark:

Most people are on board with R+L=J at this point, so I’m not going to rehash. For the purposes of this theory, let’s just stipulate that Lyanna was impregnated by Rhaegar and gave birth to Jon Snow, who Ned brought back to Starfall from the Tower of Joy.

 

Wylla the Wet Nurse:

So we don’t know much about Wylla the Wet Nurse's baby except that she must have been pregnant at this time in order for Ned to pass Jon off as Wylla’s. So what happened to her child and who was the father? 

 

Ashara Dayne:

Impregnated by Aerys, gave birth at Starfall, baby protected and concealed by Ned Stark. But how?

 

So here it goes: Some people think that Ned knocked up Ashara, others think Wylla. Barristan Selmy strongly implies that Brandon got Ashara pregnant, but I believe that Brandon got Wylla pregnant. Then, with all these secret pregnancies happening at the same time and place, rumors started getting tangled up and the babies/ baby daddies got attributed to the wrong people.  

(Of course, there is little textual evidence to support this. It’s largely circumstantial. But it fits very well and, with two books still to go, there is plenty of time for the textual evidence to still be unveiled.)

So let’s take a look at Wylla the Wet Nurse. We don’t know much about her, except that, like Ashara and Lyanna, she must have been pregnant in 283 AC, or no one would believe that she was Jon’s mother, which many people do believe. Because of her pregnancy in 283 AC, I think it’s highly unlikely that she was already a wet nurse at this time, because lactation suppresses pregnancy. The most likely course of events is that her pregnancy in 283 AC was her first, after which she began working as a wet nurse and continued to do so at least until Ned Dayne was born, in 287.

So then, what was her role at Starfall, prior to becoming a wet nurse in 283? Add this to the list of stuff that we’ll hopefully find out in Winds, but I’m going to suggest that she was a low born lady, raised as a companion/ladies’ maid to Ashara and Allyria Dayne, much like Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel’s relationship to Sansa Stark. Wylla’s name appears to be a Manderly family name, so I believe she has a connection to the Manderlys. Could she be a bastard of that family, sent to serve the ladies of Starfall and lead a comfortable life there? Could she be the legitimate younger daughter of a less important branch of the Manderly tree? We can’t yet know, but I would say that the connection is there. 

The real question, however, is whether Wylla was around Brandon in order to begin a relationship with him. The evidence is inconclusive. If she was a serving lady at Starfall, I think it is likely that she was at the Tourney of Harrenhal. It is possible that she accompanied Ashara to King’s Landing, just as Jeyne and Beth accompanied Sansa. So when Ashara went to the tourney, Wylla followed. However, it is also possible that Wylla remained at Starfall with Allyria who went to the Tourney with the other Daynes in order to visit her sister and watch her brother compete. After all, the entire Stark family was present, so it seems like the Tourney was supposed to be a family friendly affair.

If we can assume that Wylla was at Harrenhal, we can also assume that she began her relationship with Brandon there. However, the relationship would have had to continue over 282 in order for her to give birth in 283. There isn’t really any information regarding this except that Brandon was in Riverrun during part of 282, before his death. So how this timeline works I’m not quite sure, but I will say this: In order for Ned to convince people that Wylla was Jon’s mother, he would have had to convince them that he and Wylla were in the same geographic location 9 months before, in order to have had conceived Jon. So if Wylla was near Ned at that time, it is likely she was near Brandon as well. We’ll simply have to wait for the next book to know for sure how it went down.

 

So that brings us back to Starfall, in the year 283 AC. Wylla has just given birth to Brandon Stark’s child, Ashara to Aerys Targaryen’s. Ashara names the baby girl Wylla, after her best friend. Think about it. The two women grew up together, they were both pregnant at the same time, in the same castle, during a war (of which they were kinda on the losing side). They were both scared and alone. Also Aerys not only raped Ashara, but murdered the father of Wylla’s child, so they both really hated him. Considering Ashara’s fate, I think it’s fair to assume that she would have been very distressed during this time and the support of her friend, the only person who could understand what she was going through, meant the the world to her. So much so that she named her child after her.

 

But then Ned returns from the Tower of Joy and everything just sort of implodes. Ashara, already struggling from all she has been through, kills herself out of guilt for her brother’s death. Ned, already struggling to conceal Jon’s identity, now has to relocate all three of Starfall’s newborns, so that their identities won’t be discovered.

 

1. Jon Snow - Jon is clearly the priority. He’s the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, which is enough for Robert to want him dead. But he is also a boy, and Daemon Blackfyre and his entire line proves that even Targ bastards are dangerous. Jon is in the most danger, so Ned takes him to Winterfell, where he can be safe under Ned’s watchful eye. But he has to pretend that Wylla is the mother, which means that Wylla’s real child has to be hidden to conceal that Jon is not really her’s. So Wylla’s baby is…

 

2. Meera Reed - Look, I understand the urge to scream that “NOT EVERYONE IS SOMEONE ELSE!”, I really do. But in this case, no matter how you attribute the babies of Starfall and their parentage, Howland always takes the second baby. He’s already knee deep in the whole thing and you want to keep a secret as small as possible. Ned would never have brought another person into it. He didn’t even tell his wife. Also at this point, we have to understand that the secret is already too big. Ned knows, Howland knows, the Daynes probably knew the second they saw Ned return without Lyanna but with a baby. And Wylla knows because she’s doing her best to convince everyone that Jon is actually her baby, which we know he is not. So rather than bring another person into it, Ned sends Wylla’s child (his niece) with his most trusted friend. Greywater Watch is already isolated from the rest of the world. There is no better place to send his niece so that his nephew can live in safety. And it lines up. Meera was born in 283 AC.

 

3. Wylla Manderly - so this just leaves Ashara’s baby, the girl that she named after her best friend, Wylla, before she died. This baby is definitely in danger, being a Targ. But less so than Jon, since she’s a girl. Unfortunately for her, however, she was born with Targ features, purple eyes and white blonde hair. Wylla the Wet Nurse suggests that Ned take Baby Wylla to White Harbor (remember how I said she probably had Manderly connections?). This seems like a good idea to Ned. The Manderlys are North Men and fiercely loyal to House Stark. Wyman may not be conventionally brave, but he has a way with secrets and conspiracies. Knowing what we now know about Wyman, I’d say Ned couldn’t have picked a better place to send Ashara’s baby. Once there, the baby even gets to keep the name her mother chose for her because it fits right in with the other Manderlys, being a Manderly name originally. Many babies have pale blonde hair, so I imagine that it wasn’t until Wylla “Manderly” got a little older and it refused to fade to a more common blonde that they began dyeing it Manderly green.

 

So I’ve already copped to the fact that most of this is circumstantial, but there is some textual evidence that strongly supports the case that I’ve laid. I’ll start with my favorite:

 

Patchface’s Prophecy:

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

Most of Patchface’s prophecies have been explained very conclusively, but this is one of the exceptions and which prompted my theory in the first place. Basically, I believe that the “flame” is a metaphor for a Targaryen. Just as flames usually burn red and orange, Targs usually have particular characteristics, the most iconic of which is the silver-gold hair. However, Patchface has had a vision of a flame that burns, not red, but green, black and blue. Translation: The prophecy refers to three Targs who have black, blue, and green hair respectively, rather than the typical silver, which allows their heritage to be concealed.

Black Flame - Jon Snow, whose true parentage was concealed by his black hair and Stark look. Think about it. If he had looked like Rhaegar, instead of Lyanna, his situation would have been much different.

Blue Flame - (f)Aegon. Whether he’s a true Targ, a Blackfyre, or some variation, he still has Targ heritage that manifests itself in silver-gold hair. He conceals this by dyeing his hair blue.

Green Flame - Wylla Manderly. The only character we’ve met in the entire series with green hair, about the same age as Jon and Meera. You’ve heard my case for the her green dye concealing Targ silver.

And the smoke rising in bubbles bit? I believe it’s a play on the saying,”Where there’s smoke there’s fire.” Basically, people were able to contain (represented by bubbles) the rumors (represented by smoke) of these children, causing the fire (Targ kids) to go undiscovered.

 

Similarities between Wylla Manderly and Dany:

If my theory is correct, Wylla and Dany are half siblings and, personally, I think it shows. When Wylla is introduced she shows great spirit, bravery, and a certain righteousness, all of which are shared by Dany. She shows natural leadership abilities. Given a few more moments to speak, this young girl would have whipped the White Harbor men into a frenzy and defied the Freys. Wyman greatly admires her fire, despite it working against his secret plans. Perhaps Ned informed him of her Targ heritage, so Wyman simply expects a little fire from his baby dragon, now and again?

 

The Name Itself: 

Before I had even thought much about the random green hair, Wylla Manderly stood out to me because of her name. The in universe explanation for Jon’s birth points to Wylla the Wet Nurse and, just one Davos POV chapter after hearing rumors about Jon’s mother, we meet a character with the same name as Jon’s “official” mother, a woman with links to Starfall to boot. Plus green hair and a certain fiery disposition? Seems suspicious to me.

 

Similarities Between Meera Reed and Arya and Lyanna:

According to my theory, Meera is Lyanna’s niece and Arya’s cousin. She seems to share these Stark ladies’ fierceness, athleticism and loyalty. She has a boyish build, like Arya. Not conclusive, but I believe it contributes to my theory.

 

 

Anyway, if you read the whole thing, thanks! I’d love to hear feedback and discuss points. I do think that there are parts of this theory that could be changed without debunking the entire thing. I argue that Meera is Wylla and Brandon’s, but she doesn’t necessarily have to be for the theory to work. I’ve also seen it suggested that Wylla Manderly is the daughter of Aerys and Wylla, but I personally don’t think it’s likely. Why would you name a child, whose parentage you are trying to hide, after one of their parents? It would be like Cersei naming her son Jaime, you know? So I presented the case I thought most likely, but I’d love to hear other variations and suggestions. Thanks again!

Interesting theory.

A few small things that don't preclude your theory being correct.

First, Ashara was never a lady in waiting to Elia in King's Landing.  There is an old SSM from 1999 that says that but it is superceded by the world book which says Elia lived in Dragonstone at that time.  

Second, Allyria may not be a Dayne.  Ned Dayne says he has an aunt named Allyria but does not say if she is on his father's side or his mother's.

Third, if you think Wylla is from the area around White Harbor, have you considered that she might be the fisherman's daughter who is mentioned to Davos as Jon Snow's mother in ADWD?

[Angel Eyes]

I thought Aerys had sworn off mistresses in 270 AC.

[Luddagain]

Some of this is spot on but not all.

1. Wylla is certainly significant and like you I agree that Wylla Manderly has some connection to Jon (and Edrik Dayne). Note that there was another Wylla (Fenn so probably from the Neck) who gave birth to a Snow via a Brandon Stark.

2. The Green hair is certainly a bit of a find - you may be on to something re her Targness and possibly who her mother and father is/was.

3. I do think that Aerys raped Ashara and her "stillborn" daughter was her child. However i think that she really had a son who is Aegon swapped willingly by Elia for her child.  

4. I have another super duper wacky idea that Elia was keen to have her child "stillborn" because it was not a child of Rhaegar's. Rather I think it was Elia that Brandon played around with. (or Arthur Dayne). Such a child is too old to be Jon or Edrik or even Meera but could be the mysterious Allyria Dayne.

[Lord Vance II]

I've just never been able to get on board with the narritive that Aerys raped damn near every woman he saw, especially after he was said to have given it up due to his paranoia. Especially over a decade after that supposed decision. 

Wylla is Wylis Manderly's second daughter, not Wyman's. I know if your scenario Wyman could have just ordered Wylis to take her, and it would make her a little more hidden. But, given who she would be, I can't see Ned being cool with Wyman basically dumping her off. Plus, while Wyman is powerful and leal, he's not "boys" with Ned like Howland, and I don't know if he would trust him like that. I know Ned's at a lack of boys after the Tower of Joy, but still. 

As far as the blonde hair dyed green, I think the Manderly's are just blonde. I couldn't find many descriptions of them that included hair, but Wyman seems to always be portrayed as blonde or gone gray/white. Her sister's hair is brown though. 

Trust me, I love Wyman and Wylla and all the Mermen, and think Wyman will be remembered as a damn hero after everything is said and done, but I don't think this is Wylla's significance. I think she's meant to show the tension and frustration felt by the common folk (she's not common, but she might as well have been in company she spoke up in) as the leaders of the North twiddle their thumbs in the wake of the Red Wedding. I also think she is a dark horse to marry Jon, especially if her grandfather's army will make up the backbone of Jon's eventual army like I think it will. 

And if Meera isn't who shes supposed to be, my bet would be Jon's sister.

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 6/15/2017 at 10:58 PM, The Twinslayer said:

Interesting theory.

A few small things that don't preclude your theory being correct.

First, Ashara was never a lady in waiting to Elia in King's Landing.  There is an old SSM from 1999 that says that but it is superceded by the world book which says Elia lived in Dragonstone at that time.  

Second, Allyria may not be a Dayne.  Ned Dayne says he has an aunt named Allyria but does not say if she is on his father's side or his mother's.

Third, if you think Wylla is from the area around White Harbor, have you considered that she might be the fisherman's daughter who is mentioned to Davos as Jon Snow's mother in ADWD?

Thank you for the information, especially about Ashara! I think figuring out the timelines of the characters is one of the most difficult parts of formulating theories about events in Robert's Rebellion. And I actually had thought that perhaps Wylla was the fisherman's daughter, perhaps a Manderly bastard raised in the Sisters? Then at some point she ended up at Starfall. So her Manderly connection might explain how she made such a social jump, as well as how she has a Manderly given name.

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 6/16/2017 at 4:31 AM, Luddagain said:

Some of this is spot on but not all.

1. Wylla is certainly significant and like you I agree that Wylla Manderly has some connection to Jon (and Edrik Dayne). Note that there was another Wylla (Fenn so probably from the Neck) who gave birth to a Snow via a Brandon Stark.

2. The Green hair is certainly a bit of a find - you may be on to something re her Targness and possibly who her mother and father is/was.

3. I do think that Aerys raped Ashara and her "stillborn" daughter was her child. However i think that she really had a son who is Aegon swapped willingly by Elia for her child.  

4. I have another super duper wacky idea that Elia was keen to have her child "stillborn" because it was not a child of Rhaegar's. Rather I think it was Elia that Brandon played around with. (or Arthur Dayne). Such a child is too old to be Jon or Edrik or even Meera but could be the mysterious Allyria Dayne.

Thank you for the feedback! I think it really interesting that another Wylla had a baby by Brandon Stark. And the fact that she was from the Neck goes with my theory about Meera being Brandon and Wylla's.

I'm not entirely clear on your position on Ashara's baby. Are you saying that she really had a boy who she gave to Elia, the baby survived the sack of King's Landing and has now reappeared with JonCon as Aegon? And that Elia's baby was really the girl, possibly Allyria Dayne? That's how I interpreted your position, but please correct me if I made a mistake. I think it is very interesting. I actually have been toying with the idea that the three children at Starfall were not Wylla, Meera and Jon, but Wylla, Aegon and Jon. It's a little "neater" since I believe that those were the three children being referred to in Patchface's Prophecy. And Edric Dayne seems to look a lot like Aegon... I don't know, but it's something to think about! I just can't wait for Winds. It might not answer every question but will definitely give us more info to use in our speculations! Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read and reply! You've definitely given me something to think about!

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 6/16/2017 at 5:39 AM, Lord Vance II said:

I've just never been able to get on board with the narritive that Aerys raped damn near every woman he saw, especially after he was said to have given it up due to his paranoia. Especially over a decade after that supposed decision. 

Wylla is Wylis Manderly's second daughter, not Wyman's. I know if your scenario Wyman could have just ordered Wylis to take her, and it would make her a little more hidden. But, given who she would be, I can't see Ned being cool with Wyman basically dumping her off. Plus, while Wyman is powerful and leal, he's not "boys" with Ned like Howland, and I don't know if he would trust him like that. I know Ned's at a lack of boys after the Tower of Joy, but still. 

As far as the blonde hair dyed green, I think the Manderly's are just blonde. I couldn't find many descriptions of them that included hair, but Wyman seems to always be portrayed as blonde or gone gray/white. Her sister's hair is brown though. 

Trust me, I love Wyman and Wylla and all the Mermen, and think Wyman will be remembered as a damn hero after everything is said and done, but I don't think this is Wylla's significance. I think she's meant to show the tension and frustration felt by the common folk (she's not common, but she might as well have been in company she spoke up in) as the leaders of the North twiddle their thumbs in the wake of the Red Wedding. I also think she is a dark horse to marry Jon, especially if her grandfather's army will make up the backbone of Jon's eventual army like I think it will. 

And if Meera isn't who shes supposed to be, my bet would be Jon's sister.

First of all, thank you for the clarification about Wylla Manderly! That is an important piece of info that I will take into consideration. I think it is possible that Ned had interactions with the Manderlys that caused him to trust Wyman and could also explain Wyman's fierce loyalty to Ned's kids. Regardless, however, Ned would have been low on options and Wyman is definitely one of the few Northmen that I feel has any gift with secrets and conspiracies. Ned might not have respected that, but he may have realized he needed it. Also, Ned may have lied about the nature of the child he was giving to Wyman. Or he told Wyman the truth and Wyman lied to his son. There are many ways it could have happened and at this point there isn't enough info to know for sure.

Secondly, I would like to clarify that my theory only really talks about Aerys being involved with three women, one of which was his wife. I don't think his characterization is like that of Aegon the Unworthy or even Robert Baratheon. However I do believe there is sufficient evidence to suggest that his relationships were not always consensual.

If this theory is correct, or at least partially correct, it would suggest that Aerys used sex and sexual abuse to make himself feel powerful. Not all the time, but in specific cases. His relationship with Joanna, whether consensual or not, could easily have been Aerys' way of dominating his rival Tywin, who we know he was jealous of. As I put forth in my theory, he could have had very specific political motivations for raping Ashara, stemming from a need to dominate his son and his son's closest ally, Arthur Dayne. I never meant to suggest that he was just some crazy, rampant rapist. Rather, I see him more as being like his son, Viserys, who used sexual abuse in a very specific, manipulative way. Even Aerys' relationship with Rhaella seemed to stem from a hunger for power and domination. I believe it was Ser Barristan (or was it Jaime?) who said that Aerys would rape Rhaella after burning men alive? 

On 6/15/2017 at 11:36 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I thought Aerys had sworn off mistresses in 270 AC.

Aerys' supposed celibacy is very interesting to me. The important thing to remember about the World Book is that it was written through the words of one maester and we've seen how history can change in the series depending on who is telling it. I believe (perhaps you would know for certain?) that the section of the World Book regarding Aerys was written by Yandel, not Gyldayn who was GRRM. It seems to me like it would be hard for a maester to substantiate whether or not the King was keeping a vow of celibacy, so I don't think we can know for sure based off the World Book. However, I do think that a maester could have reliable reports of the King's refusal to let others touch him, which is a very interesting behavior to me. Obviously Aerys was still okay with physical contact in certain situations, such as when he had forced sex with Rhaella. So was it only in situations where he was in control that he was fine with physical contact? That could fit with my idea that he used specific acts of sexual violence in order to feel strong and in control.

Also, to address the significance of Wylla's potential Targ heritage, well, I don't really think there is any. Not in the grand scheme of things anyway. To me, it's not so much about what Wylla will do in the story if she is a Targ bastard. I think the real importance is the history of Robert's Rebellion and how she came to be here. I like the idea that Wylla, as the daughter of Aerys, has green hair, while Jon, the son of Rhaegar, has black. This parallels the Greens and the Blacks from the Dance, which apparently Aerys and Rhaegar's rivalry was beginning to emulate. The fact that their children could be marked with these colors could be symbolic of the fact that they were born from this conflict that has shaped the entire course of their lives and of which they will never be free from. Also, House Targaryen has appeared to be dead, so I also think these Targ bastards could just be a way of showing that the house isn't as dead as people believe and is still very much a part of Westeros. At this point, whenever I'm told something is certain in these books, I automatically doubt it is. We've been told that Dany is the last Targ so many times that I feel there is more to the story and more to house Targaryen. This could also be a parallel to the Dance, in which Targ bastards played a pivotal role.

Thank you so much for reading and responding! I've enjoyed hearing what you've had to say, it was very helpful!

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 6/16/2017 at 5:39 AM, Lord Vance II said:

I've just never been able to get on board with the narritive that Aerys raped damn near every woman he saw, especially after he was said to have given it up due to his paranoia. Especially over a decade after that supposed decision. 

Wylla is Wylis Manderly's second daughter, not Wyman's. I know if your scenario Wyman could have just ordered Wylis to take her, and it would make her a little more hidden. But, given who she would be, I can't see Ned being cool with Wyman basically dumping her off. Plus, while Wyman is powerful and leal, he's not "boys" with Ned like Howland, and I don't know if he would trust him like that. I know Ned's at a lack of boys after the Tower of Joy, but still. 

As far as the blonde hair dyed green, I think the Manderly's are just blonde. I couldn't find many descriptions of them that included hair, but Wyman seems to always be portrayed as blonde or gone gray/white. Her sister's hair is brown though. 

Trust me, I love Wyman and Wylla and all the Mermen, and think Wyman will be remembered as a damn hero after everything is said and done, but I don't think this is Wylla's significance. I think she's meant to show the tension and frustration felt by the common folk (she's not common, but she might as well have been in company she spoke up in) as the leaders of the North twiddle their thumbs in the wake of the Red Wedding. I also think she is a dark horse to marry Jon, especially if her grandfather's army will make up the backbone of Jon's eventual army like I think it will. 

And if Meera isn't who shes supposed to be, my bet would be Jon's sister.

Also, I too really like the idea that Meera was Jon's sister! However, she has brown hair and green eyes, which doesn't fit the mold for a Stark or a Targ. Even with the questionable genetics in the series, idk if that would be possible considering Lyanna and Rhaegar's looks... But if she was Jon's cousin, that's almost as good, isn't it?

[Nevets]

I find it hard to believe that any lord (even one as non-traditional as Howland Reed) would declare a child who is not related to him at all as his first-born and therefore his heir (which she was until Jojen was born).  A bastard, maybe; a true-born? no way in hell.  The same problem goes for Wylla.  Not to mention that there is no extraneous reason to think Wylla is someone else. Nor Meera for that matter, although I do like the theory that her mother is really Ashara Dayne, who went into hiding with Howland in the swamp.

[Guilherme Rubira]

Great theory. For sure you got some points right.

That said, many people will not agree because it apposes theories like Lemore is Ashara and Jojen and Meera are Ashara's sons.

Once again, props for taking note of Wylla Manderly's green hair!!!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 15.06.2017 at 11:13 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

So here’s my theory:

While living at King’s Landing as a companion to Princess Elia, Ashara Dayne was raped by the Mad King Aerys. Why?

 

A good question: why? I hope some serious evidence follows.

On 15.06.2017 at 11:13 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

 

I believe for several reasons:

 1. The first is simply that Ashara was very beautiful, with the traditionally Targaryen feature of purple eyes. I think it would be within what we know about Aerys’ character to covet such a woman. We’ve also seen hints through details about his interactions with Joanna Lannister as well as Ser Barristan’s memories of his treatment of Rhaella that Aerys was violent and already a rapist.

2. It was a deliberate act to provoke Arthur Dayne. Arthur was a legendary knight and Rhaegar’s greatest supporter. We’ve been told that the conflict between Rhaegar and Aerys was reaching civil war proportions. Depriving Rhaegar of his greatest ally would be a smart move on Aerys’ part, but Arthur was a Kingsguard, who serve for life. Dismissing him out of turn would alienate Aerys’ supporters and weaken his own hand. The only way for Aerys to get rid of Arthur would be to provoke him to an act of treason and then execute him. I think that, in Aerys evil, twisted mind, raping Ashara would incite Arthur to seek vengeance, thus opening the door for Aerys to legally kill him.

 

Sadly, no evidence follows. Disappointing, yet not really surprising.

I personally think that the (way too common) threads, following the "X raped Y and I have no evidence to support it" pattern, are disgusting.

(The additional lack of appeal of the "Aerys and Ashara" variety is the absolute absence of any connection between those two. Has the author ever put Aerys and Ashara in the same sentence? Ever? Maybe in the same paragraph?)

[Pain killer Jane]

On 6/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

Wylla’s name appears to be a Manderly family name, so I believe she has a connection to the Manderlys. Could she be a bastard of that family, sent to serve the ladies of Starfall and lead a comfortable life there? Could she be the legitimate younger daughter of a less important branch of the Manderly tree? We can’t yet know, but I would say that the connection is there. 

You are forgetting about Wylla of Wyl, who is a folk hero in Dorne. I always felt that with this reference, the usage of Wylla as Jon's mother was pointing at Lyanna. Due to the speculation that she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. 

Wylla Manderly to me is pointing at the Archon of Tyrosh's daughter, who played with Arianne at the Water Gardens and at Sansa due to the dying of hair. 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 6/16/2017 at 2:39 AM, Lord Vance II said:

I also think she is a dark horse to marry Jon, especially if her grandfather's army will make up the backbone of Jon's eventual army like I think it will. 

I think it would be ironic if she married someone representative of the Grey King or the Ironborn, since she is a mermaid. Someone like the Blackfish or even her grandfather's cousin Ser Marlon. 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 6/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

Wylla the Wet Nurse:

So we don’t know much about Wylla the Wet Nurse's baby except that she must have been pregnant at this time in order for Ned to pass Jon off as Wylla’s. So what happened to her child and who was the father? 

This question is very interesting but not in the sense in the sense you mean as Brandon's bastard. Martin goes out of his way to show the oversight of everyone on the fate of common children. The Orphans at the Crossroads Inn, The Orphans of the Greenblood, The Pisswater Prince, "The Frey boy screaming at Arya because she dared to compare the death of her two brothers to him not marrying his princess." 

So what did happen to Wylla the Wet Nurse's baby? I think the answer is something we are overlooking because we are concerned with the "special" babies. 

On 6/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

2. Meera Reed - Look, I understand the urge to scream that “NOT EVERYONE IS SOMEONE ELSE!”, I really do. But in this case, no matter how you attribute the babies of Starfall and their parentage, Howland always takes the second baby. He’s already knee deep in the whole thing and you want to keep a secret as small as possible. Ned would never have brought another person into it. He didn’t even tell his wife. Also at this point, we have to understand that the secret is already too big. Ned knows, Howland knows, the Daynes probably knew the second they saw Ned return without Lyanna but with a baby. And Wylla knows because she’s doing her best to convince everyone that Jon is actually her baby, which we know he is not. So rather than bring another person into it, Ned sends Wylla’s child (his niece) with his most trusted friend. Greywater Watch is already isolated from the rest of the world. There is no better place to send his niece so that his nephew can live in safety. And it lines up. Meera was born in 283 AC.

I just can't by this. Howland was indebted to Lyanna and was also his friend. I tend to speculate that Ned and Howland became friends after surviving the ToJ and like Robert and Ned grew back together because of her death, I suspect so did Howland and Ned. And therefore I would think Howland would step up and care for his deceased friend and defender's child instead of the bastard daughter of Brandon Stark, whom he barely knew. 

And the green eyes, I thought were the mark of a dreamer and seer. 

On 6/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

3. Wylla Manderly - so this just leaves Ashara’s baby, the girl that she named after her best friend, Wylla, before she died. This baby is definitely in danger, being a Targ. But less so than Jon, since she’s a girl. Unfortunately for her, however, she was born with Targ features, purple eyes and white blonde hair. Wylla the Wet Nurse suggests that Ned take Baby Wylla to White Harbor (remember how I said she probably had Manderly connections?). This seems like a good idea to Ned. The Manderlys are North Men and fiercely loyal to House Stark. Wyman may not be conventionally brave, but he has a way with secrets and conspiracies. Knowing what we now know about Wyman, I’d say Ned couldn’t have picked a better place to send Ashara’s baby. Once there, the baby even gets to keep the name her mother chose for her because it fits right in with the other Manderlys, being a Manderly name originally. Many babies have pale blonde hair, so I imagine that it wasn’t until Wylla “Manderly” got a little older and it refused to fade to a more common blonde that they began dyeing it Manderly green.

Wyman likes power and to have a secret of this magnitude in his arsenal, why didn't Wyman use this to secure a match between Winterfell and White Harbor? Ned by this time had an heir in Robb and Wynafryd was already born to Wyllis. 

[Rhae_Valarie]

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

A good question: why? I hope some serious evidence follows.

 

Sadly, no evidence follows. Disappointing, yet not really surprising.

I personally think that the (way too common) threads, following the "X raped Y and I have no evidence to support it" pattern, are disgusting.

(The additional lack of appeal of the "Aerys and Ashara" variety is the absolute absence of any connection between those two. Has the author ever put Aerys and Ashara in the same sentence? Ever? Maybe in the same paragraph?)

First of all, thank you for voicing your concerns to me. I am relatively new to the forums and I appreciate being made aware of larger problems so that I can be more careful and not contribute to these problems.

The idea that Aerys raped Ashara is part of a larger theory. The theory itself does have direct textual evidence, such as foreshadowing, symbolism, parallels between characters, and other literary devices that the author may have used to hint at certain outcomes. The actual relationship between Aerys and Ashara relies more upon what I consider to be circumstantial evidence, such as the characterization of Aerys, the psychology that the author has developed for him and is still developing, as well as the timelines that have the potential to show that Aerys and Ashara were together at certain points. I made this thread knowing that much direct evidence about the events of Robert's Rebellion is still yet to be delivered. I shared the idea that I had based on the direct and circumstantial evidence I saw currently.

As my first thread, I was nervous about making it too long for people to actually read. I therefore made reference to the circumstantial evidence of a forced relationship between Aerys and Ashara by saying that it was "within what we know about Aerys" for this to have happened. Thanks to feedback on this thread I now see that I should have taken the time to detail the circumstantial evidence, rather than vaguely reference it and acknowledge that there was no direct foreshadowing or symbolism that hinted at this. Here is what I feel a much better breakdown of Aerys psychology and motivation that provides circumstantial evidence for this part of my larger theory:

On 6/17/2017 at 11:39 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

think his characterization is like that of Aegon the Unworthy or even Robert Baratheon. However I do believe there is sufficient evidence to suggest that his relationships were not always consensual.

If this theory is correct, or at least partially correct, it would suggest that Aerys used sex and sexual abuse to make himself feel powerful. Not all the time, but in specific cases. His relationship with Joanna, whether consensual or not, could easily have been Aerys' way of dominating his rival Tywin, who we know he was jealous of. As I put forth in my theory, he could have had very specific political motivations for raping Ashara, stemming from a need to dominate his son and his son's closest ally, Arthur Dayne. I never meant to suggest that he was just some crazy, rampant rapist. Rather, I see him more as being like his son, Viserys, who used sexual abuse in a very specific, manipulative way. Even Aerys' relationship with Rhaella seemed to stem from a hunger for power and domination. I believe it was Ser Barristan (or was it Jaime?) who said that Aerys would rape Rhaella after burning men alive? 

On 6/15/2017 at 11:36 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I thought Aerys had sworn off mistresses in 270 AC.

Aerys' supposed celibacy is very interesting to me. The important thing to remember about the World Book is that it was written through the words of one maester and we've seen how history can change in the series depending on who is telling it. I believe (perhaps you would know for certain?) that the section of the World Book regarding Aerys was written by Yandel, not Gyldayn who was GRRM. It seems to me like it would be hard for a maester to substantiate whether or not the King was keeping a vow of celibacy, so I don't think we can know for sure based off the World Book. However, I do think that a maester could have reliable reports of the King's refusal to let others touch him, which is a very interesting behavior to me. Obviously Aerys was still okay with physical contact in certain situations, such as when he had forced sex with Rhaella. So was it only in situations where he was in control that he was fine with physical contact? That could fit with my idea that he used specific acts of sexual violence in order to feel strong and in control.

Please understand that my intention is not to argue with you. If you hate my theory, that fine. I am not saying I'm right. It's a speculative idea based on a story and characters that are still unfolding. I do regret having misrepresented my position and I hope this helped to clarify it. If you still have concerns about my theory, I'd be happy to listen to them.

[Rhae_Valarie]

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

This question is very interesting but not in the sense in the sense you mean as Brandon's bastard. Martin goes out of his way to show the oversight of everyone on the fate of common children. The Orphans at the Crossroads Inn, The Orphans of the Greenblood, The Pisswater Prince, "The Frey boy screaming at Arya because she dared to compare the death of her two brothers to him not marrying his princess." 

So what did happen to Wylla the Wet Nurse's baby? I think the answer is something we are overlooking because we are concerned with the "special" babies. 

I just can't by this. Howland was indebted to Lyanna and was also his friend. I tend to speculate that Ned and Howland became friends after surviving the ToJ and like Robert and Ned grew back together because of her death, I suspect so did Howland and Ned. And therefore I would think Howland would step up and care for his deceased friend and defender's child instead of the bastard daughter of Brandon Stark, whom he barely knew. 

And the green eyes, I thought were the mark of a dreamer and seer. 

Wyman likes power and to have a secret of this magnitude in his arsenal, why didn't Wyman use this to secure a match between Winterfell and White Harbor? Ned by this time had an heir in Robb and Wynafryd was already born to Wyllis. 

Thanks for the feedback! My inclusion of Meera in this theory was because of circumstantial evidence. Basically, I thought it was too big a coincidence for Howland Reed, the only other dude who is knee deep in this, to have a daughter born in the same year that this all went down. However, I am starting to think it could be a red herring. Perhaps, if Ned did send Wylla's girl with Howland, she's growing up as a commoner in the Neck. This would go along with the emphasis on the common children that you pointed out.

As far as Howland's motivation for potentially taking a child, in my mind, taking Wylla and Brandon's child wasn't about protecting that baby, it was about protecting Lyanna's. Wylla was pretending to be Jon's mom. Her real child needed to be sent somewhere safe and out of the way because if that baby was discovered, it would reveal that Wylla wasn't really Jon's mom. And then people would start wondering who Jon's mom was. Many of them would probably think Ashara, but if her child was discovered and she was ruled out, people may have uncovered the truth. So basically, I think all these children were entangled so much that Ned had to hide them all in order to protect them all.

And I think green eyes can be a mark of seer, but not always. The Lannisters have green eyes, after all. But you are right in noting that Meera fits the Reed look so maybe she is a red herring and Brandon and Wylla's child was the stillborn baby that Ser Barristan mentions.

 

Finally, I love your point about Wyman using Wylla (if she is a Targ bastard) for political gain! We can't know what he had planned with Ned before his death. Maybe Wyman had betrothed Wylla in secret to a Stark boy and that is why he is keen to restore them to power. Regardless, I have a list of signs to watch out for in future books that might validate or disprove this theory. One thing is Wylla's eye color. I will definitely now be watching to see how Wyman includes her in his political machinations. Perhaps that will give us a clue!

[Rhae_Valarie]

11 hours ago, Guilherme Rubira said:

Great theory. For sure you got some points right.

That said, many people will not agree because it apposes theories like Lemore is Ashara and Jojen and Meera are Ashara's sons.

Once again, props for taking note of Wylla Manderly's green hair!!!

Thank you for the feedback! I do feel like, at the end of the day, Meera could be who she says she is. But with Wylla's name and green hair, it seems there is more to her story!

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 6/19/2017 at 8:59 PM, Nevets said:

I find it hard to believe that any lord (even one as non-traditional as Howland Reed) would declare a child who is not related to him at all as his first-born and therefore his heir (which she was until Jojen was born).  A bastard, maybe; a true-born? no way in hell.  The same problem goes for Wylla.  Not to mention that there is no extraneous reason to think Wylla is someone else. Nor Meera for that matter, although I do like the theory that her mother is really Ashara Dayne, who went into hiding with Howland in the swamp.

Interesting observation about Meera! I've said before that the Meera part of the theory doesn't really need to be true for the rest of it to be. Perhaps Wylla and Brandon's child was stillborn, or hidden somewhere else. (Maybe this is a silly thought, but is it possible that Howland had prophetic visions and knew that son would be born to him?)

As far as Wylla, I disagree. I think her name and hair automatically make her suspect for the reasons I already listed and I strongly believe that the Patchface Prophecy refers to her. Also it's worth noting that some people believe that Dance was purposely centered around the characters with Targ heritage, such as Dany, Jon and possibly Tyrion. It's also the book Wylla Manderly was introduced in.

But then again, maybe I'm wrong. It's just a theory! (I just can't wait for Winds. Then we can finally find some things out for sure!)

Thanks for reading and replying!

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 6/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

<Snip>

Interesting. Have you considered that the reason why the Daynes like Ned is that he was honorable to a fault? That after he killed the man who held the single most famed blade in the known world, rather than taking it as a prize of war or selling it to some wealthy house, like the Lannisters, he returned it to House Dayne