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The pregnant woman and the sacrificial victim.


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2 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Fire magic. Also it seems weird how they got their magic.

Yet the First Men also have magic and it would seem that maybe their power has a more wide variety. 

The First Men learned some magic from the Children. But what do we know of them from before?

The origin of Valyria is a mystery too. According to some, the dragons came from Asshai or the Shadow. And there is this fused black stone, found in Valyria and most very old places, including Asshai.

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8 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The First Men learned some magic from the Children. But what do we know of them from before?

The origin of Valyria is a mystery too. According to some, the dragons came from Asshai or the Shadow. And there is this fused black stone, found in Valyria and most very old places, including Asshai.

And from all we know the shepherds just found some dragon eggs. My point is that the Valyrians were not more powerful than the First men before ,maybe, the dragons giving them their fire magic. Especially since we know that there were ancient dragons before Valyria.

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7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

There is something in this series of GRRM which worries me. The main characters Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion have been all born taking their mother's life. In Jon's case, an insane number of people died in relation with his coming. There is this notion of blood price for life. Something paid for the dragons too.

I thought the very same thing upon reading the thread title. I immediately thought of Lyanna being a sacrifice for the birth of Jon, and then wondered about Rhaella and Joanna. There is a connection here that is not accidental, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I think we're going to learn more about magic in the next book, and it will become clear that blood magic works in mysterious and powerful ways. Mayhaps like a twisted version of the Lilly Potter sacrifice in another series.

And I'm convinced, as I've been for some time now, that at least one of these "big three" will have to sacrifice themselves to set the seasons right and bring balance to the world again. Perhaps ending much of the magic throughout the world and giving us the "bitter-sweetness" that was promised. But this is speculation for another thread.

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3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I thought the very same thing upon reading the thread title. I immediately thought of Lyanna being a sacrifice for the birth of Jon, and then wondered about Rhaella and Joanna. There is a connection here that is not accidental, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I think we're going to learn more about magic in the next book, and it will become clear that blood magic works in mysterious and powerful ways. Mayhaps like a twisted version of the Lilly Potter sacrifice in another series.

And I'm convinced, as I've been for some time now, that at least one of these "big three" will have to sacrifice themselves to set the seasons right and bring balance to the world again. Perhaps ending much of the magic throughout the world and giving us the "bitter-sweetness" that was promised. But this is speculation for another thread.

How can you leave Bran out of your 'big three'...?!

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On 6/16/2017 at 11:09 AM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I think it may show that the Starks and the old gods' religion is really not much like the view of it that readers would tend to get from Ned's POV. Based only on Ned's attitude, his faith is pretty vague and airy-fairy nature worship. Those visions show some pretty savage practices historically. 

See also: ADWD, Davos IV, where he is imprisoned in the Wolf's Den in White Harbor. "He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south." (This is the castellan of the Wolf's Den, Ser Bartimus, giving Davos a history lesson.)

 

The Old Ways are savage ways.  It's not Buddhism.  The Old Gods and their trees ate flesh instead of wafers like the catholics do. 

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As far as the blood sacrifice, it seems like it could go along with the Jojen Paste theory. Perhaps it takes the blood of a greenseer to awaken another greenseer or a heart tree?

The pregnant woman form his vision is one thing that I'm most looking forward to and I think it will tie in to the Dunk and Egg novels. It seems to take place after Dunk visits Winterfell, so perhaps whatever happens is merely set up in the next story. I have a theory that the Dunk and Egg novels will be strongly tied to the North and Winterfell in the future. Mostly, I can't help but see strong similarities between Rohanne and Ygritte. Both have striking red hair, are very small and slim, have pug noses, grey/green eyes and are noted for archery. Rohanne later famously disappears. Perhaps Dunk helps her vanish and smuggles her North and one of her descendants ends up beyond the wall? I don't know but I think we will be seeing a lot of the North and the Starks and Dunk and Egg novels to come!

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13 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

As far as the blood sacrifice, it seems like it could go along with the Jojen Paste theory. Perhaps it takes the blood of a greenseer to awaken another greenseer or a heart tree?

The pregnant woman form his vision is one thing that I'm most looking forward to and I think it will tie in to the Dunk and Egg novels. It seems to take place after Dunk visits Winterfell, so perhaps whatever happens is merely set up in the next story. I have a theory that the Dunk and Egg novels will be strongly tied to the North and Winterfell in the future. Mostly, I can't help but see strong similarities between Rohanne and Ygritte. Both have striking red hair, are very small and slim, have pug noses, grey/green eyes and are noted for archery. Rohanne later famously disappears. Perhaps Dunk helps her vanish and smuggles her North and one of her descendants ends up beyond the wall? I don't know but I think we will be seeing a lot of the North and the Starks and Dunk and Egg novels to come!

The trees need regular feeding like plants need fertilizer.  Greenseer blood may be needed during the early growth phase and any blood will do after the roots have become strong.  The Starks must have kept that tree well-fed for it to live as long as it has.  Thousands of skeletons could lie at the bottom of that black pond.

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8 hours ago, Annalee said:

The trees need regular feeding like plants need fertilizer.  Greenseer blood may be needed during the early growth phase and any blood will do after the roots have become strong.  The Starks must have kept that tree well-fed for it to live as long as it has.  Thousands of skeletons could lie at the bottom of that black pond.

How do you account for the weirwood trees in Arianne II of TWOW?

Quote
Spoiler

Dusk found them on the fringes of the rainwood, a wet green world where brooks and rivers ran through dark forests and the ground was made of mud and rotting leaves. Huge willows grew along the watercourses, larger than any that Arianne had ever seen, their great trunks as gnarled and twisted as an old man’s face and festooned with beards of silvery moss. Trees pressed close on every side, shutting out the sun; hemlock and red cedars, white oaks, soldier pines that stood as tall and straight as towers, colossal sentinels, big-leaf maples, redwoods, wormtrees, even here and there a wild weirwood. 

 

Can there be remnants of the Old Ways in the Stormlands?

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9 hours ago, Annalee said:

The trees need regular feeding like plants need fertilizer.  Greenseer blood may be needed during the early growth phase and any blood will do after the roots have become strong.  The Starks must have kept that tree well-fed for it to live as long as it has.  Thousands of skeletons could lie at the bottom of that black pond.

Why? We know weirwoods will live forever if left unmolested. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/18/2017 at 0:18 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

 

The pregnant woman form his vision is one thing that I'm most looking forward to and I think it will tie in to the Dunk and Egg novels. It seems to take place after Dunk visits Winterfell, so perhaps whatever happens is merely set up in the next story. I have a theory that the Dunk and Egg novels will be strongly tied to the North and Winterfell in the future. Mostly, I can't help but see strong similarities between Rohanne and Ygritte. Both have striking red hair, are very small and slim, have pug noses, grey/green eyes and are noted for archery. Rohanne later famously disappears. Perhaps Dunk helps her vanish and smuggles her North and one of her descendants ends up beyond the wall? I don't know but I think we will be seeing a lot of the North and the Starks and Dunk and Egg novels to come!

Are you aware of the theory that old 'nan is actually Rohanne Webber ? I forget all the details, or where exactly i heard this, but it similar to what you were hypothesizing.

Though if the 'girl' standing on her tippy toes to kiss, presumably Dunk, truly is a young girl, then shes probably is not Rohanne, who was in her mid twenties at the end of 'a sworn sword'

 

Edit* not to mention the girl has brown hair, and Rohanne has red.

 

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On 2017-06-17 at 2:33 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The point of human sacrifice to the Old Gods from a basic plot standpoint, I think, is that "souls" are absorbed into the weirnet if a person's blood is absorbed into weirwood roots, making the weirnet more powerful. We see the floor of the COTF cave littered with bones. And it is implied that all the dead COTF skinchangers are living infinite "second lives" (Varamyr-style) inside all the ravens (and mayhaps other animals, but definitely ravens), and this is probably facilitated by having had their blood absorbed by the weirnet upon death, hence their bones being all about.

This is an interesting idea and I've wondered the same thing about burnt offerings to R'hllor; if these souls are also absorbed by the godhead.

As for the bones in the caves; I think this is evidence of a long occupation and perhaps the result of the long night; where children were born grew up and died without seeing the light of day; during a winter that lasted a generation.  The wildlings retreat to the cave systems during the winters to survive the cold and I suspect that this is the meaning of the long night; rather than darkness literally covering the world; the population retreats underground to survive and lives in darkness. 

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24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is an interesting idea and I've wondered the same thing about burnt offerings to R'hllor; if these souls are also absorbed by the godhead.

As for the bones in the caves; I think this is evidence of a long occupation and perhaps the result of the long night; where children were born grew up and died without seeing the light of day; during a winter that lasted a generation.  The wildlings retreat to the cave systems during the winters to survive the cold and I suspect that this is the meaning of the long night; rather than darkness literally covering the world; the population retreats underground to survive and lives in darkness. 

Well the COTF have clearly evolved to live underground based on their eyes. This probably wasn't because of the Long Night, as that wouldn't have been long enough. We are talking thousands and thousands of years. And Leaf even claimed that they have lived in that cave for a million years. And the Others are forced to live underground because they can't withstand sunlight. But the Others are likely the result of some sort of instantaneous "magical" genetic mutation rather than natural evolution. But yes, there are a lot of underground places, and people may have had to live underground during the Long Night. Basically, during the Long Night, the Others and humans may have traded places.

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4 hours ago, edd tollett:( said:

Are you aware of the theory that old 'nan is actually Rohanne Webber ? I forget all the details, or where exactly i heard this, but it similar to what you were hypothesizing.

Though if the 'girl' standing on her tippy toes to kiss, presumably Dunk, truly is a young girl, then shes probably is not Rohanne, who was in her mid twenties at the end of 'a sworn sword'

 

Edit* not to mention the girl has brown hair, and Rohanne has red.

 

I've heard of the theory that old Nan is Tanselle, but not Rohanne. I'll have to check it out, thank you!

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well the COTF have clearly evolved to live underground based on their eyes.

I don't think this is correct and it also isn't how George usually makes his underground humanoids look. Just one example:

  • The creature in the pool of light was small, barely over four feet. Small and sickening. There was something vaguely manlike about it, but the proportions of the limbs were all wrong, and the hands and feet were grotesquely malformed. And the skin, the skin was a sickly, maggoty white.

    But the face was the worst. Large, all out of proportion to the body, yet the mouth and nose could hardly be seen. The head was all eyes. Two great, immense, grotesque eyes, now safely hidden by lids of dead white skin.

    Von der Stadt was rock steady, but Ciffonetto shook a bit as he looked at it. Yet he spoke first.

    “Look,” he said, his voice soft. “In its hand. I think-I think that’s a tool.” Silence. Long, strained silence. Then Ciffonetto spoke again. His voice was hoarse.

    “I think that’s a man.”

Also, the skin patterning and ears of the CotF also doesn't match the requirements for ling time cave dwelling. George does maggot white, not  fauna brown. 

The CotF seem to be their own race for their own reasoning. I am not sure IF George is even doing an evolved race in ASIOAF.

As far as hybrid races, maybe this concept just has not been brought up to the in-world people... yet? But I bet "improved model" Val will have something to say about it.

 

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