Sea Dragon

When did bastards happen?

26 posts in this topic

but i think the real fear of bastards, not the general distaste for them, came with the blackfyre rebellions. before that, bastards were just an embarrassment, stain on family honor, potential rival for inheritance, regardless of law, as bastards can inherent if they are legitimized and all the other claimants on the inheritance are dead. but with they rebellions, many began to see the bastards as dangerous. now they werent just potential rivals, they could easily be seen as actively removing their siblings from the path of inheritance, greatly increasing the perceived threat level of bastards to trueborn children.

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On 19.6.2017 at 4:11 PM, HaeSuse said:

Nah, think about it yourself. It's plain and clear and easily deduced. Bastards have existed, and have been scorned ever since.... Marriage was an institution.

Can you seriously dream up a world where people swear to be together for life, swear to raise their children together, swear to be honest, loyal and noble to each other.... but where Bastards are also welcome and accepted?

No. No wife would want that. No husband would want that. No child would want that. Bastards have existed and been viewed with scorn and derision, since marriage began.

Just look at the whole Mohammedan world.

Yes, they have marriage.

But the vows of a Mohammedan husband are worth little.  A Mohammedan husband can divorce his wife unilaterally, which a Christian husband cannot. A Mohammedan husband can legally marry additional legal wives over the objections of his wife and in-laws. And children of his concubines/slaves are also fully legitimate.

Nor is grabbing a teen boy before anyone else gets him any guarantee, because Islam does not have primogeniture. All sons are eligible.

The wives and. much more importantly, fathers-in-law and brethren-in-law of Mohammedan world must have cursed many sons-in-law for divorcing their daughters and sisters, or taking additional wives or concubines. Yet they have not managed to enforce lifelong monogamy on their allies.

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The stigma of being a bastard was always there in Westeros imo. True a few bastards have risen high but the overall stigma is always there.   The stigma just got worse after Daemon Blackfyre too.

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1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Just look at the whole Mohammedan world.

Yes, they have marriage.

But the vows of a Mohammedan husband are worth little.  A Mohammedan husband can divorce his wife unilaterally, which a Christian husband cannot. A Mohammedan husband can legally marry additional legal wives over the objections of his wife and in-laws. And children of his concubines/slaves are also fully legitimate.

Nor is grabbing a teen boy before anyone else gets him any guarantee, because Islam does not have primogeniture. All sons are eligible.

The wives and. much more importantly, fathers-in-law and brethren-in-law of Mohammedan world must have cursed many sons-in-law for divorcing their daughters and sisters, or taking additional wives or concubines. Yet they have not managed to enforce lifelong monogamy on their allies.

 

You're mixing a lot of stuff up here. Untruths, to misnomers, to outright lies, as well as the fact that it applies to everything.

 

For one, a christian can divorce his wife unilaterally. And vice versa. 99.999% of the time, if you show up to court in America, the UK, mainland Europe, and say "I want a divorce from my spouse", you get it. It is the same in Arabic middle east. 

 

For two, if married to multiple women, all of those kids are legitimate. Those are not bastards. Same in all the various polygamist sects of Christianity, for that matter. Having multiple wives means having multiple sets of legitimate kids. Same in both religions.

 

For three, in polygamist religions/sects/cultures worldwide, throughout history, having children with a woman who was NOT married into the family, was considered bastardy, and those children did NOT sit in the inheritance line, did NOT sit at the family table, etc etc etc.

 

Monogamy is not required for bastardy. Islam is not required for polygamy. Islam does shun bastards. All other polygamists do as well.

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On 6/16/2017 at 7:55 AM, Sea Dragon said:

I recently got the big World book and have been reading it and skimming some other parts. Wow. This book is like one of my text books. 

If you have not read the World book yet, it starts out with the ancient history and moves foreword. One thing I noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about bastards until later when the Targaryens rightfully conquer Westeros. 

When did the term and negative concept of bastards happen? 

Thanks eveyone for always answering my questions. 

Bastards became a thing when houses were established via a traditionally male line of succession. A man could bang whoever he wanted, but his house line would only continue from his trueborn children. Bastardy is far less of a thing in a more matriarchal society, like Dorne  

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5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bastards became a thing when houses were established via a traditionally male line of succession. A man could bang whoever he wanted, but his house line would only continue from his trueborn children. Bastardy is far less of a thing in a more matriarchal society, like Dorne  

This, let's not pull all the historical examples in this because that is gonna be a mess. Bastards are a established 'thing' before the blackfyre and yes, more after but when monogamy kicked in (when? we don't know but it seems pretty early) it was pretty out there, like I said before; The lady of a castle wouldn't like the child of some other women crawling around in here castle much (I bet you can imagine). I think some people try to negate the power of women married to lords. 

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