Lollygag

Stannis: Is there life in the old boy yet?

54 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

Dany has time for all three of them.

With just two books left , doubt it. If it happens it will be a rather short conflict. There will be a second dance and Euron is being built to be a major foe for Dany. I really dont see any room for Stannis. 

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3 minutes ago, LordImp said:

With just two books left , doubt it. If it happens it will be a rather short conflict. There will be a second dance and Euron is being built to be a major foe for Dany. I really dont see any room for Stannis. 

That might be because he won't be a foe.

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Just now, Adam Yozza said:

That might be because he won't be a foe.

If you are talking about Stannis , I dont see any scenario where Stannis is an ally of Dany. Stannis wont bend the knee to Dany and Dany will want Stannis dead , he's Roberts brother after all. 

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Just now, LordImp said:

If you are talking about Stannis , I dont see any scenario where Stannis is an ally of Dany. Stannis wont bend the knee to Dany and Dany will want Stannis dead , he's Roberts brother after all. 

By the time Dany's dealt with Euron and Aegon, the Others will be pressing the attack. I personally think that with the situation the North will be in by the time Dany gets there, Stannis might well bend the knee. Similarly, at that point Dany would be a fool to throw away a seasoned battle commander.

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On 6/16/2017 at 9:56 PM, Curled Finger said:

Stannis lives.   I think he's at his all time best in the Theon chapter from Winds.   There is still plenty of life in that guy.   He's got a lot to do and he's in top form to do it.  Lack of discussion stems from having already talked everything to death.    I promise we will all be talking and fighting and cursing and supporting Stannis as soon as we get some new material.  To the vision in the House of the Undying...Stannis as a blue eyed non shadow casting vision--Dany is to be the slayer of lies.    Stannis is not Azor Ahai.   Stannis is 100% iron Baratheon.   My interpretation is that Dany is Azor Ahai.  Then again, I'm not big on any of the prophesy for the sake of prophesy.  These visions are a guide.  The only magic about  Stannis is Mel and happily, he's left her at the Wall.    No Mel whispering to him to do everything he can to offend the North.   No Davos thwarting his plans at every turn for the sake of PR.    Read the chapter again and enjoy Stannis for the curt, clever, cunning, brilliant commander and player he is.  I've been hoping Stannis is that character GRRM was musing about changing the fate of.    Stannis is a boss.   I'm hoping he makes it to the end so I can see the character he began becoming in Dance come to fruition.    

Amen!

I think Stannis and Jon's battles against the Others will take place at the same time as Dany fighting Aegon in the south.  When Stannis falls in the battle against the Others it will be left for his followers to go south to recruit Dany and Aegon to their cause.  Dany will answer their call.

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Whatever happens to Stannis, I desperately hope that it's a heroic end. He deserves one after all the shit he's had to deal with so far.

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I don't have a strong opinion over what his role will be. Although far from certain I tend to think he will take Winterfell but won't go much further. I've considered all sorts of things. The Northerners could betray him afterwards or he could take a fatal wound. He could return to the wall after Mel burns Shireen and either join the nightswatch, join the others, or simply become broken. The point about him in the slayer of lies vision is a good point but what makes it even harder for me to put too much stock in it, is I still think Daenerys has a fair bit to do in Essos before she makes the trip to Westeros. So in that case he would still have to be around for some time and still be influential for the vision to hold.

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11 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

By the time Dany's dealt with Euron and Aegon, the Others will be pressing the attack. I personally think that with the situation the North will be in by the time Dany gets there, Stannis might well bend the knee. Similarly, at that point Dany would be a fool to throw away a seasoned battle commander.

That can work.

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Let’s have a look at Stannis recent history. He’s appointed by Melisandre as the new Azor ahai. He then goes to the Stormlands and use dark magic to kill Renly. That upsets the balance of power, sending the Tyrell horde right into Lannisters arms. Thanks to such alliance, the Lannisters are able to wipe away most of the Stormland’s forces in blackwater’s bay. Such alliance, also seals Robb’s fate and paves the way to the Red Wedding and the annihilation of most of the Northern 20k army. However, Stannis’s quest is far from over. He takes his remaining force North were he first breaks the Wildlings army back and then he raise enough troops to challenge the New Warden of the North weak hold over his region. More deaths…..more bodies for the great other to resurrect. That’s not what the real Azor Ahai would want isn’t it?

But lets have a look what the red priests and the resurrected have achieved throughout recent history. As said, Melisandre was able to upset the delicate balance of power by killing a kind and realistic king (Renly) paving the way for extremists (Joffrey and Stannis) to take a shot for a crown they couldn’t possibly hold in long term (Joffrey is the living embodiment of Aerys, Stannis lack the support he need to rule). Thoros was instrumental in the setting up of the brotherhood without banners, a GOT version of terrorists who are causing loads of deaths in the Riverlands. Meanwhile Robert Strong is making sure that the single most destructive person in Westeros remains safe and in power.

In my opinion, Stannis still has a future ahead. He will die, doing what he had been doing all the time (ie killing hordes of people) only to be resurrected to lead the Great Other’s forces to victory. Death people has no charisma, no dreams for the future or ambition. They simply follow orders by their superiors. These people make the ideal subjects for Stannis.  

Edited by devilish

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5 hours ago, devilish said:

Let’s have a look at Stannis recent history.

Great summary! Ominous and unusual conclusion. It may be. But why would the Others require, or even want, human "leaders" for their wights? All they've needed to do so far is just turn them on, like ants, and the zombie horde takes care of the rest.

I agree there's a good chance Stannis will re-take Winterfell, then the Dreadfort and the North. Winterfell is currently a nightmare, with too many people and their animals stuffed into too little space, plus everyone hates the Freys and their are person(s) unknown committing silent murders. While it doesn't take too many people to defend the castle, the Boltons don't have too many who aren't at one another's throats or scared stiff. Should some kind of waste-borne disease get started, it will be all over. And remember,

Spoiler

Stannis has captured Theon, and should learn how the Iron Men conquered Winterfell by going over the walls, seaman-style. Note Ramsey wasn't there at that time, and we hope, is unaware of the details.

When Daenerys arrives (we assume this will eventually happen in the books....), will Stannis bend the knee to the rightful Targaryon heir? I agree that this is likely, with "much grinding of teeth", as has been noted. But maybe not until she's scored some significant military victories. Probably over him and his forces.

Would Dany marry Stannis, assuming he's widowed somehow? Why would she marry the brother of the usurper? Also, what political benefit would Stannis provide? He's not warm&fuzzy popular, unlike the usurper himself and his youngest brother. Stannis would be lucky to be a trusted ally of Queen Daenerys I, and get Storm's End back. Which I hope will happen. But it would be A Good Thing, and so is probably precluded in George RR's master vision.

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44 minutes ago, zandru said:

Great summary! Ominous and unusual conclusion. It may be. But why would the Others require, or even want, human "leaders" for their wights? All they've needed to do so far is just turn them on, like ants, and the zombie horde takes care of the rest.

I agree there's a good chance Stannis will re-take Winterfell, then the Dreadfort and the North. Winterfell is currently a nightmare, with too many people and their animals stuffed into too little space, plus everyone hates the Freys and their are person(s) unknown committing silent murders. While it doesn't take too many people to defend the castle, the Boltons don't have too many who aren't at one another's throats or scared stiff. Should some kind of waste-borne disease get started, it will be all over. And remember,

  Reveal hidden contents

Stannis has captured Theon, and should learn how the Iron Men conquered Winterfell by going over the walls, seaman-style. Note Ramsey wasn't there at that time, and we hope, is unaware of the details.

When Daenerys arrives (we assume this will eventually happen in the books....), will Stannis bend the knee to the rightful Targaryon heir? I agree that this is likely, with "much grinding of teeth", as has been noted. But maybe not until she's scored some significant military victories. Probably over him and his forces.

Would Dany marry Stannis, assuming he's widowed somehow? Why would she marry the brother of the usurper? Also, what political benefit would Stannis provide? He's not warm&fuzzy popular, unlike the usurper himself and his youngest brother. Stannis would be lucky to be a trusted ally of Queen Daenerys I, and get Storm's End back. Which I hope will happen. But it would be A Good Thing, and so is probably precluded in George RR's master vision.

 

I think that the Others will find the wall difficult to crack. If you ask me they are planning to bypass it by sending their horde under the sea and then attack it from its weaker (South) side. That will of course work but loads of bodies will be lost because of rough seas etc, weakening the others army considerably. Under such circumstances the zombie horde tactic will not be applicable anymore, at least for a  period of time.

Which means that the others will need a general who can lead them to battle in an organized and effective way. Someone whose experienced enough to lead an army into battle and whose ruthless enough to seal a deal with the devil just to get what is his by right. That candidate could either be alive (the Others had sealed deals with the living before ie Craster) or dead (its possible for dead people to retain their memories after they had been ressurected)

In my opinion, that candidate is Stannis. He's a proven general who had been guilty of committed some of the worst atrocities to get what is his by right (from burning people alive right to kinslaying using blood magic). Joffrey and Roose are monsters but they had stopped short from committed such crimes. 

Now imagine if Stannis dies in his quest to capture Winterfell. He is resurrected only to learn that his family is dead but had been resurrected by the others and that Jon Snow is in reality a half Targ who had since bent the knee to the mad king's daughter. How would he act? Would he join the others to get his IT back?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by devilish

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4 hours ago, devilish said:

Joffrey and Roose are monsters but they had stopped short from committed such crimes. 

They commited worse crimes. Flaying isn't any nicer than burning, much less so considering that Stannis burns people because fire magic is proven to work and the Boltons just flay people because they can. The kinslaying part remains to be seen, it has been hinted that one Bolton may kill the other. 

Edited by John Doe

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I believe Stannis will survive this battle. The Bolton alliance is much weaker than it seems. The mummer's show is close to its end. On the field, the Manderly and the Freys are going to each other throat. Stannis is on the border of a lake with plenty of fishing holes weakening the ice. IMO someone army will drown. Taking Winterfell is another affair. But Stannis could repeat Ramsey trick: His men returning from the battle, disguised in Freys; them plus the Manderlys. Once inside WF, they should overcome the Boltons by surprise. Particularly if other houses are siding with Manderly.

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It seems the more he goes on, the more Stannis resembles an Other: taught skin over hard bones, blues eyes...

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20 hours ago, James Steller said:

Whatever happens to Stannis, I desperately hope that it's a heroic end. He deserves one after all the shit he's had to deal with so far.

If Robb, Ned, Jeor Mormont, Oberyn Martell, and a bunch of other characters didn't get a heroic end Stannis will neither.

Stannis is no hero, and he doesn't want to be one. He wants to do the right thing but his sense of morality is twisted by his personality disorder.

I don't know how Stannis will go down, but I'm pretty sure we all know his breaking point. The burning of Shireen. He will sacrifice his only child in a twisted attempt to save mankind and that's not going to work. And that will kill him, never mind whether his body survives the whole thing or not.

What I think we can say with reasonable certainty is that Stannis is going to be the one who kills Melisandre. He is her blind spot. She will never look for nor see danger coming from that direction. And we can be sure that Stannis is not going to allow her to live after he has sacrificed his daughter in a futile attempt to accomplish something.

The best we can hope for Stannis is that he goes down for the right cause. Meaning that he is still trying to defeat the Others.

We know he is a false savior, a lie Daenerys has to slay. I'm not sure he has to do it herself, though. It could be that her very existence has already dealt Stannis the mortal blow, he just doesn't know it yet. The news about Daenerys and the dragons is going to come as a huge blow to Stannis. He is not stupid, he knows what that means. It means that he isn't the savior after all.

The fact that Melisandre also misinterprets her vision of Bloodraven and Bran bodes ill for Stannis' future actions. They might fail to make an alliance with the right people and thus end doing the wrong things or lacking crucial bits of information when the Others finally make their move.

I like the idea that Stannis ends up going to try to bring the war to the Others before they can make their move only to fall into their trap. How exactly that's going to work I don't know.

It could involve the Horn of Winter in some fashion. After his death Stannis might very well become a wight, as many characters who die in the remainder of the series might. That is inevitable with the Others around.

But I'm pretty positive that Stannis will survive the battle at the lake, take Winterfell afterwards, and return as victor to the Wall to finally take his seat at the Nightfort. He is not going to fall to the Boltons. If that happened George would never have given it away in the Pink Letter nor would he bother to cover the coming battle(s) in detail through the POVs of Asha and Theon. He could have sent Asha back to the Wall with Jeyne. But he did not.

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Soon a bell will toll to signal the end of normal time.  Others among us.  And I don't think they'll be sneaking around the wall at all.  Politics as usual sort of almost has to stop then.   Yeah right.  It'll continue, one army pushing another closer toward the advancing Coldline no one comes back from. 

 Hopefully Stan's victory will be for more than to just provide an instant drop from his high point to his lowest.   If Winterfell is the prize..... maybe Stan can rediscover for us why.   Why is it and the Starks so valuable in Winter.   There may be a way for Stan to go cold while still resisting the call of the Others.   Looks like he'll be inside the walls before They arrive.  So then we'd just have to hope that something shakes out.   of the crypt

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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A lot of the posters I've been watching for a long time in this topic.   It's fascinating to see how polarizing Stannis is to readers.   I think he's earned most of our faith or hope in just being Stannis.  Most of us agree that Jamie and to a lesser degree Theon are brilliant characters, challenging to read and fully absorbing.   They are beautiful in their own ways.   This hard, brittle, jealous and dutiful Stannis is drawn that way too.  You've got to admire GRRM for making anyone like him.   I digress, sorry...I'm reading through the posts and seeing a majority feeling that Stannis will fight the Others.   This is interesting.    Does anyone have any idea who in the immediate characters Stannis will install at Winterfell?   It seems like any other ruined old castle now that Jon isn't interested.  Is this the turning point where Stannis may turn south to go retrieve a cousin from the Vale or Uncle from River Run to take care of things for a while?  Is there a chance Manderly will tell Stannis what he's tasked Davos to do?   What of Mance and Asha?   Theon?   I don't think we have enough time for sell swords to be located and join Stannis.   I do think this victory will rally the North, though, and that should suffice in at least the 1st battle for the Wall, beyond the Wall--wherever it takes place.  

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Read the Night Lamp theory my brothers, it's not only very well done regarding the strategy he'll use to win the Battle of Winterfell but it also highlights common misconceptions some people have regarding his character. It's top notch. The directors of the show will burn in Seven Hells for what they did to his character.

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