Roose and Ramsay

[Lord Wraith]

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Fair enough, but that's not really on the run is it?  

He doesn't need to run. Really he would just need to outlast the Winter.

19 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

 

Dreadfort is a possibilty, yes.

Asshai? 

Long way to go. Dreadfort is noted on how strong and secure and how the Boltons have holed up for years.

[Prof. Cecily]

4 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

He doesn't need to run. Really he would just need to outlast the Winter.

Long way to go. Dreadfort is noted on how strong and secure and how the Boltons have holed up for years.

Very true. 

It would be a long way to go and Bolton doesn't seem like the type to enjoy a Grand Tour of Essos, somehow.

 

[The Sunland Lord]

[Comment on now-deleted quote removed]

[John Suburbs]

On Invalid Date at 4:01 AM, Livesundersink said:

 

Early in Dance Roose talks to Theon about Ramsay, says he's grown strangely fond of Fat Walda and then goes on to say that Ramsay will kill any sons she bears him and says that it is for the best and that he himself will die before they come of age. Given everything he has done to sieze power and make House Bolton the lords of the north it seems strange to see that he doesn't seem to care about the future of his house, does anyone else think this?.

here is the quote from Dance

 

Lady Walda is a Frey, and she has a fertile feel to her. I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders. I find that quite endearing. If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though.

 

 

The thing that we call Roose Bolton is actually the last surviving son of the Night's King, who was just about to sacrifice has baby boy to the Others when he was overthrown. Being the only kin, little Roose naturally inherited the Dreadfort and all its lands and titles.

For the past 7000 years, Roose has survived by fathering sons on human wives, waiting until they come of age, then killing them, flaying them (hence the Bolton sigil) and donning their skins to create a near-perfect likeness of his new host. The only major difference is the eyes, which remain pale as milkglass.

This is why Roose has very white skin, very little body hair, has to leach himself constantly (to prevent the blood from pooling in his hands and feet), and why he is able to silence big boisterous louts like the Greatjon with a whisper.

At also explains Ramsey and Domeric. Dom, of course, is not Roose's son, but Brandon's. He had a strong connection to horses, like Brandon and Lyanna, and showed every indication of being a champion jouster and a true leader of men who would bring honor and glory to House Bolton. Roose undoubtedly knows Dom's true parentage, but it's still a stretch that he would reward Ramsey with legitimacy and titles for committing murder, especially since he has Fat Walda all lined up to birth a new legitimate heir?

The answer lies in the way Roose knew instinctively that Ramsey was his: the eyes, which are not quite as pale as Roose's, but distinctive nonetheless. Remember, Roose can only switch bodies with a son, so if anything were to happen to Roose's current body, then Dom would have inherited and Roose would have no choice but to relegate himself to the life of a bastard. But with Dom out of the way and Ramsey not only set to inherit the DF but Winterfell as well, then Roose is in perfect position to make the switch and gain tremendous political and military power as well. His son(s) by FW, of course, won't be old enough to inhabit for years.

This isn't to say that Roose has not served as lord of Winterfell (or probably all the other northern houses as well). Remember the story of Brandon Ice-Eyes, who threw the slavers out of the Wolf's Den? That was probably Roose.

As Lady Dustin notes, Roose plays with people. The reason is that he sees individuals as temporary amusements who come and go in an instant.

So at some point in the near future, expect Roose to die, and then watch and see if Ramsey's eyes suddenly appear paler and he starts speaking in whispers and leaching himself. Then you'll know the switch has been made.

[Springwatch]

Most likely Roose is flat out lying when he says Walda's children don't matter.

Roose doesn't show his emotions - he could be incandescent with rage at Ramsay, but we wouldn't see it much. He's got to be angry. He has to tell Ramsay, "A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule." Ramsay breaks the rules - he's been warned like this twice, but can't change.

How many people get to defy Roose continually and get away with it?

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The thing that we call Roose Bolton is actually the last surviving son of the Night's King, who was just about to sacrifice has baby boy to the Others when he was overthrown. Being the only kin, little Roose naturally inherited the Dreadfort and all its lands and titles.

... etc

Sounds good.

[Northern_Star]

I for some reason don't buy the skinchanger/vampire theories about Roose. I think it would be hard to reveal to the reader. I dont really get Roose bolton... But i really like him.

If there was a bigger faceless men conspiracy however, Roose would be on the top of my list of candidates.  There has been to much blood on his hands for too little to gain. Many have pointed out that he is smart enough to know that he won't be warden of the north forever.

And what a coincidence that tycho turns up in stannis camp

  

[BalerionTheCat]

I believe Roose, in a cold logical manner, thinks exclusively for the good of his house. Not his personal comfort. He doesn't fear Ramsay. Even if he knows he will kill him ASAP. And he could say nothing to change that. Roose believes that if Ramsay becomes better than him (in Roose's values), then it is fair that he takes what is his. But if Roose believes Ramsay is endangering the house with his lack of control and policies, he will kill him instead.

So far Roose believes he is in control of the situation. But he may be underestimating Ramsay rashness Ramsay will try something soon. But it is not certain Roose is not unprepared, or will let himself be killed.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The thing that we call Roose Bolton is actually the last surviving son of the Night's King, who was just about to sacrifice has baby boy to the Others when he was overthrown. Being the only kin, little Roose naturally inherited the Dreadfort and all its lands and titles.

Sure thing.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

For the past 7000 years, Roose has survived by fathering sons on human wives, waiting until they come of age, then killing them, flaying them (hence the Bolton sigil) and donning their skins to create a near-perfect likeness of his new host. The only major difference is the eyes, which remain pale as milkglass.

Obvi. I mean, there must be a reason why all the lords of the Dreadfort have those pale eyes, rite? (They do, don't they? I mean, it is written somewhere?)

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is why Roose has very white skin, very little body hair, has to leach himself constantly (to prevent the blood from pooling in his hands and feet), and why he is able to silence big boisterous louts like the Greatjon with a whisper.

Yep. It is a well-established fact then when you're wearing someone else's skin, leeching is a must. Because that blood thing.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

At also explains Ramsey and Domeric. Dom, of course, is not Roose's son, but Brandon's. He had a strong connection to horses, like Brandon and Lyanna, and showed every indication of being a champion jouster and a true leader of men who would bring honor and glory to House Bolton.

Flawlessly reasoned.

Actually, all good horsemen are closely related.

And we all know about Bethany and Brandon, amirite? Nudge nudge, wink wink?

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Roose undoubtedly knows Dom's true parentage, but it's still a stretch that he would reward Ramsey with legitimacy and titles for committing murder, especially since he has Fat Walda all lined up to birth a new legitimate heir?

The answer lies in the way Roose knew instinctively that Ramsey was his: the eyes, which are not quite as pale as Roose's, but distinctive nonetheless. Remember, Roose can only switch bodies with a son,

It is known. The evidence supporting it is conclusive.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

so if anything were to happen to Roose's current body, then Dom would have inherited and Roose would have no choice but to relegate himself to the life of a bastard. But with Dom out of the way and Ramsey not only set to inherit the DF but Winterfell as well, then Roose is in perfect position to make the switch and gain tremendous political and military power as well. His son(s) by FW, of course, won't be old enough to inhabit for years.

This isn't to say that Roose has not served as lord of Winterfell (or probably all the other northern houses as well). Remember the story of Brandon Ice-Eyes, who threw the slavers out of the Wolf's Den? That was probably Roose.

Right. The family tree and the line of inheritance is perfectly clear there, kudos to your diligence. It had to be Roose, I'm sold.

Almost.

Only one question, though, just a formality, but a necessary one: what Littlefinger had to do with all of it? And if the answer is "nothing", then, sorry, I can't buy it. A Littlefingerless theory is a bad theory.

[The Fattest Leech]

12 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The thing that we call Roose Bolton is actually the last surviving son of the Night's King, who was just about to sacrifice has baby boy to the Others when he was overthrown. Being the only kin, little Roose naturally inherited the Dreadfort and all its lands and titles.

For the past 7000 years, Roose has survived by fathering sons on human wives, waiting until they come of age, then killing them, flaying them (hence the Bolton sigil) and donning their skins to create a near-perfect likeness of his new host. The only major difference is the eyes, which remain pale as milkglass.

This is why Roose has very white skin, very little body hair, has to leach himself constantly (to prevent the blood from pooling in his hands and feet), and why he is able to silence big boisterous louts like the Greatjon with a whisper.

At also explains Ramsey and Domeric. Dom, of course, is not Roose's son, but Brandon's. He had a strong connection to horses, like Brandon and Lyanna, and showed every indication of being a champion jouster and a true leader of men who would bring honor and glory to House Bolton. Roose undoubtedly knows Dom's true parentage, but it's still a stretch that he would reward Ramsey with legitimacy and titles for committing murder, especially since he has Fat Walda all lined up to birth a new legitimate heir?

The answer lies in the way Roose knew instinctively that Ramsey was his: the eyes, which are not quite as pale as Roose's, but distinctive nonetheless. Remember, Roose can only switch bodies with a son, so if anything were to happen to Roose's current body, then Dom would have inherited and Roose would have no choice but to relegate himself to the life of a bastard. But with Dom out of the way and Ramsey not only set to inherit the DF but Winterfell as well, then Roose is in perfect position to make the switch and gain tremendous political and military power as well. His son(s) by FW, of course, won't be old enough to inhabit for years.

This isn't to say that Roose has not served as lord of Winterfell (or probably all the other northern houses as well). Remember the story of Brandon Ice-Eyes, who threw the slavers out of the Wolf's Den? That was probably Roose.

As Lady Dustin notes, Roose plays with people. The reason is that he sees individuals as temporary amusements who come and go in an instant.

So at some point in the near future, expect Roose to die, and then watch and see if Ramsey's eyes suddenly appear paler and he starts speaking in whispers and leaching himself. Then you'll know the switch has been made.

Ok, this is going to sound insane, but I do not follow most any theory that is outside of this forum so I have to ask, is this the "Bolt-on" theory I have heard about?

[Dorian Martell's son]

Roose is in a pickle. As of now, he only has one heir, Ramsey. Ramsey is hated and reviled, but numerous lords are, and they can still rule effectively. I would not be surprised if Roose lets his natural son die as soon as he has a male heir 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Roose was unmarried for a long time.  If he had any desire to replace Ramsay, he had over a decade to do it.  The 3rd most powerful lord in the North would not have a hard time finding a bride.  Roose also tells Arya that Ramsay will kill him all the way back in clash or storm.  For these reasons I believe that Roose really does see himself in Ramsay and does intend to have him succeed him.

[WSmith84]

On 21/06/2017 at 0:12 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

The Roose and Ramsay dynamics is eerily similar to the Sith. "Always two, there are. No more. No less. A Master and an apprentice."  - with the apprentice, one day, trying to destroy the master and take his place. Ramsay trying to off the daddy seems inevitable, and Roose is acutely aware of that. Lord Roose isn't terribly impatient for that day to come, and, I'm pretty confident, plans to be the survivor of that game.

All communication between Roose and Ramsay (or Roose and Theon, which, from Roose's POV, would be the same thing) should be interpreted in that light.

That's a fantastic comparison. If you don't mind, I'm going to steal that explanation and use it in future discussions of this topic.

[TMIFairy]

14 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Roose was unmarried for a long time.  If he had any desire to replace Ramsay, he had over a decade to do it.  The 3rd most powerful lord in the North would not have a hard time finding a bride. 

Ramsay had been the spare - there was trueborn Domeric around until about 297AC.

I agree that Roose would have absolutely no problems with finding a wife. Simply, having a heir and spare he did not feel the need to have more children nor to forge more alliances. He already is part of the Ryswel-Dustin-Bolton Entente.

Maybe he judged that bringing a fourth House on board was not possibly or worthwhile?

But what I can;t wrap my mind around is this - suspecting (certain?) that it was Ramsay who killed Domeric, then why did Roose not kill the psychopat and marry immediatelly? Or simply marry immediatelly and kill Ramsay once the first child of his 3rd (4th?) wife was born?

[The Hoare]

10 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Ramsay had been the spare - there was trueborn Domeric around until about 297AC.

I agree that Roose would have absolutely no problems with finding a wife. Simply, having a heir and spare he did not feel the need to have more children nor to forge more alliances. He already is part of the Ryswel-Dustin-Bolton Entente.

Maybe he judged that bringing a fourth House on board was not possibly or worthwhile?

But what I can;t wrap my mind around is this - suspecting (certain?) that it was Ramsay who killed Domeric, then why did Roose not kill the psychopat and marry immediatelly? Or simply marry immediatelly and kill Ramsay once the first child of his 3rd (4th?) wife was born?

Kinslaying is a taboo. I don't know how religious Roose is, but if cares about the gods, he'll be accursed for killing his own son

[TMIFairy]

35 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Kinslaying is a taboo. I don't know how religious Roose is, but if cares about the gods, he'll be accursed for killing his own son

I guess that this is some sort of circular argument here:

- Ramsay killed my son, who was his brother, so that makes him a kinslayer, hence slaying him is a Good Deed. But his is my son, so that makes me a kinslayer, too ...

Two Wrongs make a Right?

[John Suburbs]

On Invalid Date at 5:51 AM, Northern_Star said:

I for some reason don't buy the skinchanger/vampire theories about Roose. I think it would be hard to reveal to the reader. I dont really get Roose bolton... But i really like him.

If there was a bigger faceless men conspiracy however, Roose would be on the top of my list of candidates.  There has been to much blood on his hands for too little to gain. Many have pointed out that he is smart enough to know that he won't be warden of the north forever.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

And what a coincidence that tycho turns up in stannis camp

  

Oh, I think the reveal could be quite awesome: Ramsey stabs Roose, but then the inner Roose emerges and kills Ramsey, a la The Hidden.

Or better yet, we don't see the actual switch. Roose dies off-page, and suddenly Ramsey appears to change, which will be attributed to his grief over losing his beloved father. Then perhaps late in Dream, we see Lady Stoneheart vs. Roose/Ramsey in a fight to the true death.

[John Suburbs]

On Invalid Date at 0:16 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, this is going to sound insane, but I do not follow most any theory that is outside of this forum so I have to ask, is this the "Bolt-on" theory I have heard about?

Well, this actually has been kicking around this forum for quite a number of years. Some may call it Bolt-on (as in Frankenstein), others that Roose is a vampire, but neither of those is accurate. Roose is a half-human, half-Other who flays his own sons and wears their skins, thus preserving himself as the new lord of whatever castle he desires throughout the ages.

I know it sounds nuts, but I'm throwing the long ball on this one.

[Knight of Bobcats]

On 6/20/2017 at 11:35 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

It is all very strange, but I think there is some weight to the theory that Roose is manipulating Ramsay through Theon. There are a number of things about Roose that still don't make sense to me: Theon is a valuable hostage (even if Balon didn't care about him, the Harlaws probably do) yet he more or less let Ramsay have his way with him, and as Barbrey points out, Ramsay's mistreatment of Jeyne will only help turn the other lords against the Boltons. It all seems extremely careless for a man as meticulous as Roose Bolton. Perhaps he's hoping that Ramsay will flay himself to an early grave and allow Roose to be rid of him?

Or perhaps, being a sociopath, Roose doesn't understand how repulsed others will be by Ramsey's actions. That's the only explanation I can think of. I agree that a seasoned commander and lord should know better than to permanently damage a valuable hostage while Ramsey's blatant abuse of Jeyne/Fake Arya violates Roose's rule of "a peaceful land, a quiet people". 

[Sourjapes]

On 6/28/2017 at 8:01 AM, Knight of Bobcats said:

Or perhaps, being a sociopath, Roose doesn't understand how repulsed others will be by Ramsey's actions. That's the only explanation I can think of. I agree that a seasoned commander and lord should know better than to permanently damage a valuable hostage while Ramsey's blatant abuse of Jeyne/Fake Arya violates Roose's rule of "a peaceful land, a quiet people". 

Roose says he ordered Ramsay to only take a finger, though. Is that the truth? It might be. Ramsay has his own motivations that might involve undermining his father.

[Knight of Bobcats]

11 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

Roose says he ordered Ramsay to only take a finger, though. Is that the truth? It might be. Ramsay has his own motivations that might involve undermining his father.

If that's the case, I'm surprised Roose hasn't taken action. His position is precarious enough as it is; the last thing he wants the Northern lords to think is that his authority can flouted penalty-free. Why should they follow the guy if he can't control his own flay-happy sadist of a son, especially when it's their skins on the line?