Is House Tully the weakest Liege Lords in the entire kingdom?

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

its in the world book. the tullys were not that high a house until the conquest, when aegon kicked harren of the ironborn out of harrenhal, and freed the riverlands from the ironborn. the tullys were the first of the lordly house to bow to the dragons, and aegon raised them to be lords paramount for the loyalty.

Yes. From page 156

Ah. Here's a site you may not know (it was new to me) 

https://towerofthehand.com/blog/2017/05/02-castles-of-westeros-riverrun/index.html

 

8 minutes ago, John Doe said:

You support a king who burns his own subjects alive during a court session for shits and giggles?

 Well, House Tully backed Maegor the Cruel's claims to the throne against Prince Aegon, IIRC.

Quote

 Grand Maester Gawen protested Maegor's coronation, stating that by all the laws of inheritance, the crown should pass to Aenys's son, Aegon. Maegor beheaded Gawen with Blackfyre,^[4] making Gawen the first of three Grand Maester's who would be executed during Maegor's reign.^[11] ending protest against Maegor's ascension.^[4]

Targs are complex creatures, to be sure.

[Kaibaman]

The Tullys main problem is lacking an illustrious linage when compared to the other great houses. As far as we know there is no legendary member of their family who did some great deal that was put down into the songs and the Tully weren't even kings and did not become the overlords of their fief by conquest. The Tullys have always depended on the patronage of others to gain power, in their case it has also been partly due to luck and strategic betrayals. The Vances had given them land to build Riverrun, they worked for the Mudds and then turned their cloaks when the tide was turning against their overlords. They directly betrayed the Teagues and the Hoares when they found even greater prospects (the latter of which landed them dominion over all the Riverlands). But also their strategic location had made them immensely powerful and they had for the most part stayed out of the fighting for most of the time up until Aegon's Conquest which incidentally had made them the most powerful of the Riverland houses when Aegon landed.

Is it really any wonder that their bannermen aren't eager to serve a house that in their minds didn't earn their position out of great deeds or merits but were mostly just lucky, ambitious and knew which horses to back.

[Nittanian]

On 6/17/2017 at 1:27 PM, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

The Riverlands aren't even considered a kingdom in their own right, so they don't have the power or prestige of the other realms, even the poorer ones like the North and the Iron Islands. And the Tullys themselves are a newly minted Great House, so they don't have the benefit of millennia of history on their side.

Are they the weakest Great House? In terms of prestige within their own realm, probably, although I'd argue that the Greyjoys probably are more poorly regarded by outsiders.

The riverlands are considered one of the "Seven Kingdoms" (although there are nine provinces in the united realm). While the ironborn controlled the rivermen, the future of the Hoare kingdom was going to be the riverlands. Halleck Hoare made his seat at Fairmarket instead of on the Iron Islands, and Yandel indicates the king was more riverman than ironborn. Harren Hoare, the last King of the Isles and the Rivers, made the new seat of his kingdom in the riverlands, far from the Sunset Sea.

Quote

Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)

 

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

5 hours ago, Nittanian said:

The riverlands are considered one of the "Seven Kingdoms" (although there are nine provinces in the united realm). While the ironborn controlled the rivermen, the future of the Hoare kingdom was going to be the riverlands. Halleck Hoare made his seat at Fairmarket instead of on the Iron Islands, and Yandel indicates the king was more riverman than ironborn. Harren Hoare, the last King of the Isles and the Rivers, made the new seat of his kingdom in the riverlands, far from the Sunset Sea.

 

While this is true, because the Iron Islands ruled over the Riverlands by the time of Aegon's conquest, they were grouped as one kingdom. But they are viewed as their own separate entity divested of the ironborn now, and while the Hoares made their power base in the Riverlands, they were always viewed as outsiders within the Riverlands themselves. The last kings the Riverlanders had were, if memory serves, House Justman.

Interesting point about the chalice, but why leave off the kraken? The Iron Islands are/were most certainly a kingdom, even if the ironborn aren't well-liked.

[The Bard of Banefort]

44 minutes ago, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

 

Interesting point about the chalice, but why leave off the kraken? The Iron Islands are/were most certainly a kingdom, even if the ironborn aren't well-liked.

There seems to be this pattern of the Iron Throne (and Westeros at large) alienating the Iron Islands, despite how that alienation only feeds into the Old Way. The chalice is a great example: Dorne fought against the IT for 150 years, killing thousands of Westerosi throughout the years, all while the Iron Islands were loyal (from what I've gathered, the only rebellious lords we know of under the Targaryens were Dalton and Dagon, and even Dalton started reaving under Rhaenyra's orders), and yet Dorne is always listed as one of the seven kingdoms, while the Iron Islands usually are not. From what we've been told thus far, the North and the Iron Islands are the only regions that never married into the royal family (if R+L turns out to have been a legitimate marriage, that just leaves the Ironborn again). The Ironborn's crimes can be largely chalked up the their customs, but the IT didn't really give them any incentive to reform, aside from being invaded if they don't. They're poor, scarcely populated, and experience a huge level of prejudice from the other kingdoms--they basically have no reason to care about the Iron Throne. One of the reasons why Quellon was considered such a successful lord was because he tried to alleviate tension between his people and the mainland Westerosi. The fact that none of the Targaryens apparently ever thought to try to create closer ties between the Iron Islands and the other kingdoms seems like a major blunder on their parts. 

[Nittanian]

4 hours ago, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

The last kings the Riverlanders had were, if memory serves, House Justman.

Interesting point about the chalice, but why leave off the kraken? The Iron Islands are/were most certainly a kingdom, even if the ironborn aren't well-liked.

The Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers (with the bulk of it consisting of the riverlands) was one of the Seven Kingdoms at the time of the Conquest. Aegon then divided that kingdom into two provinces of his new realm ruled from the Iron Throne. The sizeable riverlands are considered as one of the seven constituent "kingdoms", even though the "Seven Kingdoms" is really one realm with nine provinces. The Iron Islands are considered a backwater while the riverlands are the center of the realm, so the chalice honors the Tullys instead of the Greyjoys. Also, the Teagues were the last native river dynasty, with the Justmans having died out an unspecified time earlier.

Quote

For centuries it has been the custom to speak of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This familiar usage derives from the seven great kingdoms that held sway over most of Westeros below the Wall during years immediately preceding Aegon's Conquest. Yet even then, the term was far from exact, for one of those "kingdoms" was ruled by a princess rather than a king (Dorne), and Aegon Targaryen's own "kingdom" of Dragonstone was never included in the count.

Nonetheless, the term endures. Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually divided into a hundred independent states, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision. (TWOIAF THe North)

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 hours ago, Nittanian said:

The Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers (with the bulk of it consisting of the riverlands) was one of the Seven Kingdoms at the time of the Conquest. Aegon then divided that kingdom into two provinces of his new realm ruled from the Iron Throne. The sizeable riverlands are considered as one of the seven constituent "kingdoms", even though the "Seven Kingdoms" is really one realm with nine provinces. The Iron Islands are considered a backwater while the riverlands are the center of the realm, so the chalice honors the Tullys instead of the Greyjoys. Also, the Teagues were the last native river dynasty, with the Justmans having died out an unspecified time earlier.

 

Exactly.

There were Seven Kingdoms when Aegon landed 300 years ago. That is where the term "The Seven Kingdoms" comes from. And from the sigils on the cup it is clear that when the Kingdom of Rivers and Isles was split in two, the "Riverland" part of it was considered to be its successor kingdom, while the Iron Isles part just fell off the official map. This makes sense, if you consider that 90% of the territory and probably 90% of the population of the former Kingdom of the Rivers and Isles resides in the Riverlands. It's almost like the Iron Throne taking the New Gift from the North. The vast majority of the North still remains and is termed as such. The tiny, insignificant part that was stripped away is just not referred to as a Kingdom anymore. That is what the Iron Isles represents.

So when Doran says Dorne is the least populous of the "Seven Kingdoms", he is referring to the kingdoms on Joffrey's cup. Not to the Iron Isles, which is a tiny backwater portion that got chopped off the much larger Riverlands kingdom.

 

[Graydon Hicks]

yeah, i dont think anyone like the iron isles. i have to wonder why nobody gets around to wiping out the iron born, they seem to do nothing but piss everyone else off.

[Free Northman Reborn]

28 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

yeah, i dont think anyone like the iron isles. i have to wonder why nobody gets around to wiping out the iron born, they seem to do nothing but piss everyone else off.

Well, other than the case of the Children of the Forest, genocide doesn't seem to be a thing in Westeros. Probably not due to any moral constraints, but simply due to practicality. It is not worth the effort for any given generation. Loose subjugation or low level security measures to deal with imminent threats seems to be the order of the day, and as soon as a particular threat subsides, interest is lost again.

Consider the examples of other relatively "weak" groups that are considerable irritations and continuing threats to their stronger neighbours. Here I think of the likes of the Mountain Clans of the Vale, the Dornish raiders into the Stormlands and the Reach, the pirates from the Three Sisters, the wildlings north of the Wall etc.

None of these have been wiped out, nor has a concerted effort been made to do so. Wars are engaged in, but genocide seems to be impractical or unnecessary. Heck, even the Boltons are an example of this. They should have been wiped out numerous times over the centuries. And yet here they still are.

 

[devilish]

The Riverlands has no natural defences, it shares borders with almost everyone and its rivers makes it very difficult to raise a viable army in time to defend from an invasion. The Tullys have no real history as LPs in the regions which means that their bannermen aren’t as responsive to them as the Northern bannermen are to the Starks. That has an effect on the Tully’s rule, however it’s a poor excuse considering that the Tyrells are in a worst situation (half of the Reach’s houses have a better claim to theirs) and they make things work.

I can’t help thinking that Hoster was a horrible LP. He wasn’t able to persuade his brother to marry, which lead to a rift that caused the Riverlands to lose its best general. He allowed a minor Lord to come into his house and do what he wants, which included despoiling his daughter and challenging the heir to Winterfell into a duel. He disillusioned the Freys with his constant jibes and his refusal of attending Walder’s many marriages and finally he raised an incompetent son who was still single by the time the war of 5 kings started. Hoster’s children were a dead weight to anyone who was unlucky enough to be linked to them. Lysa ended up killing her husband and she was instrumental in the rise to power of one of the most dangerous men in Westeros. Cat’s silly accusations regarding Tyrion fast tracked the King’s death and Ned’s execution while Edmure lead the Riverlands to irrelevance as the Riverlands army ended up being hammered by Tywin’s army. Robb had to pay a heavy price just to come to his grandfather’s rescue, a price he wasn’t willing to pay in the first place and that lead to his premature death.

[Free Northman Reborn]

11 minutes ago, devilish said:

The Riverlands has no natural defences, it shares borders with almost everyone and its rivers makes it very difficult to raise a viable army in time to defend from an invasion. The Tullys have no real history as LPs in the regions which means that their bannermen aren’t as responsive to them as the Northern bannermen are to the Starks. That has an effect on the Tully’s rule, however it’s a poor excuse considering that the Tyrells are in a worst situation (half of the Reach’s houses have a better claim to theirs) and they make things work.

I can’t help thinking that Hoster was a horrible LP. He wasn’t able to persuade his brother to marry, which lead to a rift that caused the Riverlands to lose its best general. He allowed a minor Lord to come into his house and do what he wants, which included despoiling his daughter and challenging the heir to Winterfell into a duel. He disillusioned the Freys with his constant jibes and his refusal of attending Walder’s many marriages and finally he raised an incompetent son who was still single by the time the war of 5 kings started. Hoster’s children were a dead weight to anyone who was unlucky enough to be linked to them. Lysa ended up killing her husband and she was instrumental in the rise to power of one of the most dangerous men in Westeros. Cat’s silly accusations regarding Tyrion fast tracked the King’s death and Ned’s execution while Edmure lead the Riverlands to irrelevance as the Riverlands army ended up being hammered by Tywin’s army. Robb had to pay a heavy price just to come to his grandfather’s rescue, a price he wasn’t willing to pay in the first place and that lead to his premature death.

Look, I've raised this before, but the Tullys in general just seem to be a disagreeable, dysfunctional and generally less than impressive bunch. If they weren't introduced to us as protagonists in the form of the family of the Stark children's mother, we would view them pretty similarly to the Florents or Freys.

Consider them from a neutral perspective. Stubborness, selfishness and ineptitude seem to be the hallmark of their family. Attributes which combine in individual members in various degrees, with some exceptions of course. Hoster's stubbornness comes through quite clearly in his treatment of Lysa, as well as his treatment of his brother the Blackfish. It was his way or the high way, no matter the consequences or the hurt it caused. He didn't talk to his brother for half a lifetime, just because he wouldn't marry according to Hoster's wishes, for Pete's sake.

Then you have Catelyn and Lysa, who are as stubborn and self absorbed as you are likely to find, seeing the world through their own desires and prejudices to a remarkable extent. Edmure is the incompetent one, and no more needs to be said about him. And even the Blackfish, despite being the one with most of the tactical gifts in the family, seems to have had this incredibly stubborn streak, to the point of exiling himself rather than marry who his brother chose for him.

Altogether, not a very likeable or particularly impressive family, one has to admit.

[devilish]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Look, I've raised this before, but the Tullys in general just seem to be a disagreeable, dysfunctional and generally less than impressive bunch. If they weren't introduced to us as protagonists in the form of the family of the Stark children's mother, we would view them pretty similarly to the Florents or Freys.

Consider them from a neutral perspective. Stubborness, selfishness and ineptitude seem to be the hallmark of their family. Attributes which combine in individual members in various degrees, with some exceptions of course. Hoster's stubbornness comes through quite clearly in his treatment of Lysa, as well as his treatment of his brother the Blackfish. It was his way or the high way, no matter the consequences or the hurt it caused. He didn't talk to his brother for half a lifetime, just because he wouldn't marry according to Hoster's wishes, for Pete's sake.

Then you have Catelyn and Lysa, who are as stubborn and self absorbed as you are likely to find, seeing the world through their own desires and prejudices to a remarkable extent. Edmure is the incompetent one, and no more needs to be said about him. And even the Blackfish, despite being the one with most of the tactical gifts in the family, seems to have had this incredibly stubborn streak, to the point of exiling himself rather than marry who his brother chose for him.

Altogether, not a very likeable or particularly impressive family, one has to admit.

I wonder if its stubborness or incompetence or even madness. Lysa is any easy target to the latter accusation. Strangely enough she's nowhere as mad as her older sister. I mean the way Cat handled Tyrion is surreal and would have made Aerys proud. 

a- she accuses the warden of the West's heir of attempted murder, basing herself on ridiculous evidence
b- she kidnaps the queen's own brother without her brother or husband knowing (all happened in the Riverlands)
b- Instead of taking him to KL were he would face the King's justice she opts for the Vale were she was confident that her sister would execute him

All of this occured in a setup were Ned and her two children were in KL surrounded by Lannister men and at a time when Lannister and Stark relations were already strained. FFS that could easily degenerate into a civil war that her brother, sister and husband could have easily lost. 

Cat would later on commit treason by releasing the Kingslayer basing herself on some vague promise done by the man she previously tried to execute.

 

 

 

[cpg2016]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Hoster's stubbornness comes through quite clearly in his treatment of Lysa, as well as his treatment of his brother the Blackfish. It was his way or the high way, no matter the consequences or the hurt it caused. He didn't talk to his brother for half a lifetime, just because he wouldn't marry according to Hoster's wishes, for Pete's sake.

Then you have Catelyn and Lysa, who are as stubborn and self absorbed as you are likely to find, seeing the world through their own desires and prejudices to a remarkable extent. Edmure is the incompetent one, and no more needs to be said about him. And even the Blackfish, despite being the one with most of the tactical gifts in the family, seems to have had this incredibly stubborn streak, to the point of exiling himself rather than marry who his brother chose for him.

Altogether, not a very likeable or particularly impressive family, one has to admit.

I couldn't disagree more.

Hoster managed to make himself a linchpin of the alliance that brought down the Targaryens, by marrying into both the Arryn and Stark lines.  His brother disobeying him IS a big deal; marriages aren't made for love, in Westeros, but for the advantage of family, and looking at it through a modern lens is a mistake.  Brynden refusing to marry, AT ALL, is a huge issue for the Tully dynasty, which could have garnered much more political clout if Brynden married well.  Edmure isn't necessarily incompetent; he's a glory hound eager to impress his father/uncle/etc, but his main failing in the WOT5K is that he is dedicated to protecting his smallfolk, which is actually honorable and he's one of the few lords we see actually prioritize his feudal obligations.

Lysa is legitimately mentally ill, which can happen when you are forced to abort a child and be forcibly separate from your love.

Catelyn... not sure how you are finding her to be stubborn or self-absorbed.  She's a legitimately good mother, even by modern standards.  She's a savvy political operator in her own right.  About the only negative is her treatment of Jon, which is motivated by the fact that Ned choosing to raise him in Winterfell is a very pointed political statement, and a direct challenge to her own children's position.

EDIT: And the Jaime thing.  Which is really bad, I'll admit, but even within the text we get some indication that other's sympathize, and the effect that vow has on Jaime may actually end up saving her daughter's, so... maybe not an awful decision in the end.

[devilish]

3 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

I couldn't disagree more.

Hoster managed to make himself a linchpin of the alliance that brought down the Targaryens, by marrying into both the Arryn and Stark lines.  His brother disobeying him IS a big deal; marriages aren't made for love, in Westeros, but for the advantage of family, and looking at it through a modern lens is a mistake.  Brynden refusing to marry, AT ALL, is a huge issue for the Tully dynasty, which could have garnered much more political clout if Brynden married well.  Edmure isn't necessarily incompetent; he's a glory hound eager to impress his father/uncle/etc, but his main failing in the WOT5K is that he is dedicated to protecting his smallfolk, which is actually honorable and he's one of the few lords we see actually prioritize his feudal obligations.

Lysa is legitimately mentally ill, which can happen when you are forced to abort a child and be forcibly separate from your love.

Catelyn... not sure how you are finding her to be stubborn or self-absorbed.  She's a legitimately good mother, even by modern standards.  She's a savvy political operator in her own right.  About the only negative is her treatment of Jon, which is motivated by the fact that Ned choosing to raise him in Winterfell is a very pointed political statement, and a direct challenge to her own children's position.

EDIT: And the Jaime thing.  Which is really bad, I'll admit, but even within the text we get some indication that other's sympathize, and the effect that vow has on Jaime may actually end up saving her daughter's, so... maybe not an awful decision in the end.

I think that madness or paranioa run in the Tully women lineage and might be kickstarted following child birth. Both Cat and Lysa did some extremely crazy things in their lifetime with the former kidnapping the warden of the West's heir only to take him to the Vale to be executed. That could have easily degenerated into a civil war that the North, the Vale and the Riverlands could have easily lost. I wonder whether Sansa or Arya shares some of these traits. 

[cpg2016]

The Tully's are weak for a bunch of reasons.

First, the Riverlands themselves are vulnerable, which has had a destabilizing effect historically and precluded the centralization of power in any one House's hands.

Second, the Tully's don't have the same absurd lineage that families like the Starks, Lannisters, or Arryns do.   This means their relationship with their vassals is not as strong as those other families, as there isn't the same history of obedience and intermarriage and reliance.  Families like the Blackwoods have a longer lineage than the Tullys, and in Westeros, that sort of thing is important (see the Tyrells as well).

Third, to that point, the Riverlands have a number of pre-existing feuds which have destabilized the entire realm.  The Bracken-Blackwood feud was basically what brought down every single royal house of the Riverlands, as they continue to invite outside powers in to help them gain an upper hand (both the Stormlands and Iron Islands get their foothold in the Riverlands by assisting one side or the other).

Fourth, the Tully's aren't located anywhere near the center of their realm, which doesn't help them control the trade or respond quickly to threats; their position on the Red Fork gives them a strong defensive position, but makes it more difficult to govern.

Fifth, and maybe most importantly, the Riverrun isn't particularly wealthy.  The richest seat in the region is Harrenhal, and the Tully's don't control it, which means that they will always have nominal vassals who outstrip them in wealth and power (though they die because of the curse, but still).  Aegon not giving that seat to the Tully's undermined their rule from the start.

Sixth, and marginally less important, is the establishment of the Crown Lands and especially King's Landing diverted a lot of trade and economic activity away from the Riverlands, which obviously impoverishes them and reduces population centers, which can be engines of military, economic, and industrial power.

[cpg2016]

3 minutes ago, devilish said:

I think that madness or paranioa run in the Tully women lineage and might be kickstarted following child birth. Both Cat and Lysa did some extremely crazy things in their lifetime with the former kidnapping the warden of the West's heir only to take him to the Vale to be executed. That could have easily degenerated into a civil war that the North, the Vale and the Riverlands could have easily lost. I wonder whether Sansa or Arya shares some of these traits. 

Catelyn didn't kidnap Tyrion, she arrested him for attempted murder.  There is a distinct difference.  And trust me, she/Eddard had almost no chance of losing that war.  Only GRRM insisting that Robert die before Tywin could be brought to justice saved him.  It wasn't those three regions against the Westerlands, it was the entire kingdom versus the Westerlands.

[devilish]

23 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Catelyn didn't kidnap Tyrion, she arrested him for attempted murder.  There is a distinct difference.  And trust me, she/Eddard had almost no chance of losing that war.  Only GRRM insisting that Robert die before Tywin could be brought to justice saved him.  It wasn't those three regions against the Westerlands, it was the entire kingdom versus the Westerlands.

She had no authority to arrest the queen's own brother let alone to drag him to the Vale against his will were she hoped that her family influence was strong enough to have him executed. 

And what do you think would have happened if that occured? Robert would have had no choice but to order Cat and Lysa arrest. Ned would of course defend his wife's action which means he would be arrested too. The North, the Vale and the Riverlands might  react to that by calling the banners which will force Robert to do the same. Renly would use his influence to drag the Reach into this war which means that the crown will have superiority in terms of soldiers, generals (Robert, Tarly, Tywin, Stannis) and ships. By the time the North is able to raise a decent army and smash its way South, the Riverlands would have been invaded by the Reach, the Westerlands and the Crownlands, capturing Edmure and pushing the Knights of the Vale home. At that point, it would only be a matter of time before a scared Lysa ends up bending the knee (probably with the interceding of LF) 

Tyrion might be the least of the Lions but he's still a Lannister, the King's brother in law and Uncle of Robert's children. The crown depends on the Lannisters to provide the gold needed to make KL functional and it expects its Wardens and Lords not to take matters in their own hands. If Tyrion committed a crime then by all means, he will be punished for it. But he should be judged by anointed king not by the boy's mum or aunt 

[cpg2016]

3 minutes ago, devilish said:

She had no authority to arrest the queen's own brother and the Warden of the West son and heir. If she had evidence against the Imp then she should have asked for the king's justice. Instead she kidnaps Tyrion behind her King's, her husband's and her brother's back and she dragged him at the Vale (a region that had nothing to do with it) to have him executed.

And what do you think would have happened if that occured? Robert would have had no choice but to order Cat and Lysa arrest. Ned would of course defend his wife's action which means he would be arrested too. The North, the Vale and the Riverlands might  react to that by calling the banners which will force Robert to do the same. Renly would use his influence to drag the Reach into this war which means that the crown will have superiority in terms of soldiers, generals (Robert, Tarly, Tywin, Stannis) and ships. By the time the North is able to raise a decent army and smash its way South, the Riverlands would have been invaded by the Reach, the Westerlands and the Crownlands, capturing Edmure and pushing the Knights of the Vale home. At that point, it would only be a matter of time before a scared Lysa ends up bending the knee (probably with the interceding of LF) 

Tyrion might be the least of the Lions but he's still a Lannister, the King's brother in law and Uncle of Robert's children. The crown depends on the Lannisters to provide the gold needed to make KL functional. If he committed a crime then by all means, he will be punished for it. However he should be punished by a king not by the Warden of the North's crazy wife. 

Well, she brought him to the Vale to stand trial, not to be executed.  We don't know enough about the legal rights of the various nobles to know whether what she did was legal, but the fact that she gets an enthusiastic response strongly signals that she wasn't way out of line.

And you're alternate universe scenario makes no sense.  IOTL, Tyrion is arrested and the Crown comes down on the side of Catelyn, because Robert doesn't care and Ned is the most powerful man after him in the Seven Kingdoms.  You are aware, I assume, that when Tywin DOES actually invade the Riverlands, the Crown sends an army against him?  You're totally ignoring that in the books, all this shit happens, and it's still Tywin vs the world.  All Ned has to do is say "I ordered my wife to arrest Tyrion Lannister" and it's all totally legal.  And you don't think he won't do that, now that they both "know" Tyrion was behind Bran's attempted murder?

I just don't understand how you manage to completely ignore all the events tha actually happened in favor of making up some far-fetched narrative.

[devilish]

30 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, she brought him to the Vale to stand trial, not to be executed.  We don't know enough about the legal rights of the various nobles to know whether what she did was legal, but the fact that she gets an enthusiastic response strongly signals that she wasn't way out of line.

And you're alternate universe scenario makes no sense.  IOTL, Tyrion is arrested and the Crown comes down on the side of Catelyn, because Robert doesn't care and Ned is the most powerful man after him in the Seven Kingdoms.  You are aware, I assume, that when Tywin DOES actually invade the Riverlands, the Crown sends an army against him?  You're totally ignoring that in the books, all this shit happens, and it's still Tywin vs the world.  All Ned has to do is say "I ordered my wife to arrest Tyrion Lannister" and it's all totally legal.  And you don't think he won't do that, now that they both "know" Tyrion was behind Bran's attempted murder?

I just don't understand how you manage to completely ignore all the events tha actually happened in favor of making up some far-fetched narrative.

If its 'normal' proceedings to act that way then don't you think that the Lannisters would have acted cool with it? Instead Jamie goes on wounding Ned while Tywin orders Gregor to cause havoc into the Riverlands. That doesn't sound normal isn't it?

Tyrion was the queen's own brother and heir to CR. If we rely on jurisdiction then he should be taken into trial at the place he was arrested (ie the Riverlands). Ideally this matter should be sorted by the King. That's why there's the king's justice in the first place. Instead Tyrion is arrested in the Riverlands and Cat drags him to the Vale bypassing both her father and the king's jurisdiction. He is subject to the most biased of trials and is lucky to come out of it alive.

Robert doesn't care because by that time Tyrion wasn't dead yet. In his line of judgement the Starks and the Lannisters are even with the former abducting the Imp and with Ned being beaten to a pulp for it by the kingslayer. Things would have been different if Tywin lost his son and heir. That's a crime Robert couldn't close an eye on especially if it turns out that Cat's evidence is nothing but fluff. 

[Nittanian]

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Sixth, and marginally less important, is the establishment of the Crown Lands and especially King's Landing diverted a lot of trade and economic activity away from the Riverlands, which obviously impoverishes them and reduces population centers, which can be engines of military, economic, and industrial power.

While Duskendale and to a lesser degree Maidenpool were weakened by the growth of King's Landing, the riverlands are wealthy (but not as well off as the westerlands or the Reach). 

Quote

Where once only fishing boats were seen, now cogs and galleys from Oldtown, Lannisport, the Free Cities, and even the Summer Isles began to appear as the flow of trade shifted from Duskendale and Maidenpool to King's Landing. (TWOIAF Aegon I)

Once the most important port on Blackwater Bay, [Duskendale] had seen its trade dwindle and its wealth shrink as King's Landing grew and burgeoned ... (TWOIAF Aerys II)

Rich and fertile, the riverlands border on every other realm in the Seven Kingdoms save Dorne, yet have few natural boundaries to deter invasion ... There has never been a city in the riverlands, strange as that might seem (though large market towns are common), likely because of the fractious history of the region and a tendency for the kings of the past to refuse the charters that might have given some Saltpans or Lord Harroway's Town or Fairmarket leave to expand.  (TWOIAF The Riverlands)