Is House Tully the weakest Liege Lords in the entire kingdom?

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

It seems more like that's the wolfblood in Arya, combined with her high levels of empathy and an upbringing that emphasised the importance of justice. Whilst there are times early in the books where her emotions get the better of her, these were always short lived and as the series unfolds she learns to channel them. That is born out in the differing approaches between LS and Arya. LS cares only about vengeance - kill as many Freys and Lannisters as is possible. Arya meanwhile is far more even handed and just, only including those she knows personally to have committed heinous crimes on her list.

To clarify, I'm not trying to say that Arya is just like Lady Stoneheart, but rather highlight a way in which Cat and Arya are very similar. For Catelyn, this led to her becoming Stoneheart (although being betrayed, murdered, and resurrected after three days of rotting in a river undoubtedly skewed things a bit). With Arya, her arc is far from over, so it'll be interesting to see where her path leads her. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Duplicate post.

[Bernie Mac]

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Yes, well seeing as the King never bothers to correct Ned or tell him to have Tyrion released, this isn't exactly an example of a royal rebuke.

He actually does in the very next sentence. 

"Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp—"

"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime."

 

Not only were you wrong about no one else seeing Cat's actions as wrong but you did not even bother to read Robert's reaction. The King does not think what she did was legal, he calls it a kidnapping. 

 

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 And look at the second part of the statement!  Robert is wrong in the same breath as he calls Tyrion's arrest an abduction, because Ned clearly isn't responsible for the "slaughter" in the streets, Jaime is.

Both the Lannisters and Starks are wrong. The Starks abducted a member of the Lannister's family and Robert, the King, can blame whoever he wants. In a medieval society his opinion counts more than anyone elses and he thinks it was wrong. 

I'm sorry if you don't like it. 

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 In fact, given the way in which Cersei is trying to manipulate the PR aspect of this, it's actually more suggestive that Tyrion was taken legally, or else she wouldn't need to lump it in with the "slaughter" and Ned ostensibly being on his way from a whorehouse.

eh? The King calls it an abduction. The King makes the laws, not the Starks. 

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Varys doesn't know that Ned sanctioned the arrest.

Ned didn't sanction the arrest. Read the scene in the Inn. Cat makes no mention of Ned authorising it. Ned is lying through his teeth and no one believes that he ordered it. 

And lets face facts, if you want to arrest the King's brother-in-law it is probably best to get his Ok before hand. 

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 Again, you keep forgetting one thing; Ned Stark, the Hand of the King, okayed Tyrion's arrest.

No he didnt. He lied and claimed he did after he had quit being the Hand. 

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 Which makes it legal, full stop.  The only person who gets to countermand the legality of that proclamation is Robert, who... very pointedly, does no such thing.

Except he did. Dude, read the books before claiming things that did not happen. You would dave yourself a lot of pointless arguments. 

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

She has a statement that the murder belonged to Tyrion, she "knows" the Lannisters are making a power-play in the capital and are no friend to her family... it's not an unreasonable accusation.

Cat is not the Lord of the Riverlands, maybe if Hoster or even his heir arrested Tyrion there would be some sort of case or if she arrested him in the North were she was left to rule. 

Only in the North does she really have the authority to arrest the son of a Warden, and even then it is a bit dicey.  

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Jon Snow is hardly an unbiased source from a personal perspective, and given his whole story throughout, hardly the guy to be consulting about the finer points of the law.

You made a point that only Tyrion's immediate family thought Cat fucked up. I showed a clear example that this was not the case. Can you not accept that you made an ill informed point?

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Again, all that matters is that the Hand of King sanctioned the arrest, and was never ordered otherwise by the King.

Except he was.

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

  At the end of the day, that's the law, whatever you want your alternate universe to be.  All we see is the second highest legal authority in the land condoning the arrest of Tyrion Lannister, and his condemning of Tywin Lannister for his illegal-as-hell chevauchee through the Riverlands.  Until you show me any piece of dialogue where Robert orders Ned to rescind either order, or rescinds them himself, you have no footing on which to stand.

Awesome. I am glad you decided to be condescending about this. 

"Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp—"

"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime."

[The Bard of Banefort]

15 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

so maybe arya inherited some that instabilty? ill not say its not as pronounced as what crops up amongst the targaryens, but given that all noble house practice some form of light incest, usually "kissing cousin" level incest, its not impossible that certain genetic peculiarities appear on occasion. in fact, what do you want to bet that the infamous bartheon rage is one of those things? or that lannister cruelty? 

One of the things I really love about the books is how each family has their own unique "flavor." I think the Lannisters tend to be more conniving and ambitious than cruel (although Tywin, Joffrey, and Cersei all fit the bill). Out of the three Lannister children, I think Jaime is surprisingly the least "Lannister-like." I do wonder if he takes more after his mother, but we know so little about Joanna at this point that it's hard to tell. 

[Philokles]

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

To clarify, I'm not trying to say that Arya is just like Lady Stoneheart, but rather highlight a way in which Cat and Arya are very similar. For Catelyn, this led to her becoming Stoneheart (although being betrayed, murdered, and resurrected after three days of rotting in a river undoubtedly skewed things a bit). With Arya, her arc is far from over, so it'll be interesting to see where her path leads her. 

I get what you mean, but still somewhat disagree that the similarity is deliberate. Arya's strong emotions seem more like Stark wolfbloodedness than Tully fixation - seen not just in a twisted form as Stoneheart, but also Lysa with Sweetrobin and Cat with Bran after his fall.

Undeniably Arya has many similarities to her mother as well as her father. What I love about her and Sansa is how they both take a mix of their parents' attributes, creating two very distinct but believable characters.

[cpg2016]

On 6/21/2017 at 6:53 AM, devilish said:

Honour is not important for the Lannisters. If it was then Tywin would have been the first to join the rebellion following the many insults thrown at him. Jamie would have never backstabbed the king and he would have reacted to Robert’s insults and Cersei would have taken action over his husband’s constant betrayals.

Respect is important to Tywin.  It's the most important thing to him.

And.... Cersei does take action.  She's not only cuckolding her husband with her own brother, but is also using contraceptives to prevent a true blooded Baratheon heir from being born.

On 6/21/2017 at 6:53 AM, devilish said:

The Lannisters (apart from Jamie) couldn’t care less about Tyrion either. I don’t think that they wished him dead. If that was the case then rest assured Tywin would have deposed of him long before GOT even started. However they couldn’t care less of him living either and they certainly didn’t want him to inherit CR. That would explain why Tywin instructed the imp to lead the Mountain clans to battle and why they were so keen of putting him into trial for a crime (Joffrey’s murder) he didn’t committed.

Actually, this is the opposite.  Most Lannisters seem to like Tyrion, except Tywin and Cersei (and Joffrey).  Myrcella and Tommen clearly love him, and we get no indication that  Kevan or any of the extended clan dislike him.

 

On 6/21/2017 at 6:53 AM, devilish said:

 That approach contrasts heavily to how the Lannisters acted following Tyrion’s abduction. Jamie assaulted the hand of the King, Cersei confronted Robert which ended up being slapped like some wrench and Tywin called the banners .The 1 million dollar question is why? Its out of Lannister nature to take rash decisions (especially Tywin) and they did so for someone they didn’t really like. The answer to that must be, that what Cat did, was so big that the Lannisters couldn’t ignore (or pay) in their ruthless and patient way.

I'm not sure where you're getting that the Lannisters don't make "rash decisions".  They do it all the time.  Jaime and Cersei have awful judgement.  For all that Tywin is considered a cold blooded man, he makes a lot of silly, rash choices, often motivated by his sick attitudes towards sex and power.

[cpg2016]

On 6/21/2017 at 5:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Not only were you wrong about no one else seeing Cat's actions as wrong but you did not even bother to read Robert's reaction. The King does not think what she did was legal, he calls it a kidnapping. 

On the basis of false information given to him by Cersei.  He pointedly calms down after it becomes clear that Cersei has lied to him.

But yes, I did overlook that when I reread that section.

On 6/21/2017 at 5:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Both the Lannisters and Starks are wrong. The Starks abducted a member of the Lannister's family and Robert, the King, can blame whoever he wants. In a medieval society his opinion counts more than anyone elses and he thinks it was wrong.

It isn't an abduction.  Even if Robert countermands Ned's order, it was still legally valid when it was executed.  Wrong and illegal are not mutually inclusive terms.

 

On 6/21/2017 at 5:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

eh? The King calls it an abduction. The King makes the laws, not the Starks. 

The King calls it an abduction because he's been lied to.  If Robert claimed the moon was a giant ball of cheese, that wouldn't make it so.  Yes, if Robert commands Tyrion's release, then that is the way it's gonna be.  But it doesn't invalidate the initial legality of the action.

 

On 6/21/2017 at 5:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Ned didn't sanction the arrest. Read the scene in the Inn. Cat makes no mention of Ned authorising it. Ned is lying through his teeth and no one believes that he ordered it. 

And lets face facts, if you want to arrest the King's brother-in-law it is probably best to get his Ok before hand. 

If he and Cat are in agreement that Tyrion sent the assassin, then I think we can agree that his support for such action is a given... as indeed it was.

And yes, perhaps it makes sense to get Robert's opinion.  I'm not claiming Cat didn't make a rash decision, but she clearly couches it as an arrest, in the name of Robert, and she knows she has the legal backing to do so because the #2 guy in the kingdom agrees with her that Tyrion is guilty.

On 6/21/2017 at 5:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Cat is not the Lord of the Riverlands, maybe if Hoster or even his heir arrested Tyrion there would be some sort of case or if she arrested him in the North were she was left to rule. 

Only in the North does she really have the authority to arrest the son of a Warden, and even then it is a bit dicey.  

Well, she is a Tully.  But we just don't know enough about the way the law works in Westeros to make this kind of judgement call.  And what does it have to do with anything that Tyrion is Tywin's son?  He's not his heir, having been effectively disinherited by Tywin.  So he has no real legal rights in excess of other men.  Yes, an actual lord has some feudal protection, but Tyrion isn't a lord.

On 6/21/2017 at 5:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Awesome. I am glad you decided to be condescending about this. 

"Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp—"

"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime."

FIne.  Again, doesn't invalidate the legality of the arrest in the first place.  Cat thinks it's legal.  All of the random ass retainers she calls upon think it's legal, or they wouldn't do it.  Ned sanctions it.  And my timeline is fuzzy, but I think that by the time Robert orders him released, he's already free and on his way.  So again... nothing illegal.  Had Cat held him after receiving an order from Robert, that is a different story.  But... she didn't.  

By contrast, Tywin's assault was completely illegal, and declared as such from Day 1.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

 

I'm not sure where you're getting that the Lannisters don't make "rash decisions".  They do it all the time.  Jaime and Cersei have awful judgement.  For all that Tywin is considered a cold blooded man, he makes a lot of silly, rash choices, often motivated by his sick attitudes towards sex and power.

I had fallen for the cold-blooded-Tywin persona when I first started reading the books, but looking back, there's some definite signs of emotional immaturity. For instance, a lot of fan theories rest on Tywin telling Tyrion that he was "no son of his," but neglect to mention that Tywin says the same thing to Jaime a few chapters earlier when he refuses to leave the Kingsguard. He's a very emotional and controlling man; when someone defies him, his reaction is extreme. In this case, he essentially disowned his favorite son for not obeying one of his orders. 

[Bernie Mac]

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

On the basis of false information given to him by Cersei.  He pointedly calms down after it becomes clear that Cersei has lied to him.

Dude, the King called it an abduction and ordered Ned to release him. Information that you previously were unaware of and now that quotes from the actual books have been provided you still are sticking your head in the sand and going with your original opinion. 

You said that you were only wrong if Robert ordered the release  and when pointed out that he actually did you are still arguing your wrong opinion. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

But yes, I did overlook that when I reread that section.

Others didnt, that is why they have a better understanding of this current debate. You decided to give an ill informed opinion and refuse to back down from it despite the books actually directly contradicting what you thought happened. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

It isn't an abduction.

It is. The King calls it so. Cat has no legal authority to arrest the King's  brother-in-law in the Riverlands. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 Even if Robert countermands Ned's order, it was still legally valid when it was executed.  Wrong and illegal are not mutually inclusive terms.

Bullshit as Cat never uses Ned's name when making the arrest. There are many witnesses to hear what Cat had said. Please actually read the books rather than simply argue what you want them to say. Robert calls it an abduction, as does Varys in a private conversation with an Essos agent. The realm as well as the King see it as an abduction. 

"The talk is he's ridden back to Casterly Rock to join his father. The story of how Lady Catelyn took the Imp is on every lip. I have put on extra guards, if it please you."

Ned lies to Robert when he said he knew of the arrest, he is as surprised as anyone. Even in his own private thoughts he does not think of it as an arrest

 The west had been a tinderbox since Catelyn had seized Tyrion Lannister.

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

The King calls it an abduction because he's been lied to.

He was lied to by Ned. 

"Pycelle swears it will heal clean." Robert frowned. "I take it you know what Catelyn has done?"

 "I do." Ned took a small swallow of wine. "My lady wife is blameless, Your Grace. All she did she did at my command."

 

Yet those of us who have actually read the books know that this is a lie. Honest Ned has, not for the first or last time, lied to his King. 

 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 If Robert claimed the moon was a giant ball of cheese, that wouldn't make it so.  Yes, if Robert commands Tyrion's release, then that is the way it's gonna be.  But it doesn't invalidate the initial legality of the action.

Ned lying that he commanded his wife to arrest Tyrion after it happened does not make it any more legal either. Cat, with no legal authority outside of the North, abducted the King's brother-in-law. She fucked up

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

If he and Cat are in agreement that Tyrion sent the assassin, then I think we can agree that his support for such action is a given... as indeed it was.

Why is Ned surprised when he learns of the news? Why does Cat make no mention of the Hand, her husband, giving her the authority to arrest Tyrion? She even lies to the people in the Inn where she is taking him. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

And yes, perhaps it makes sense to get Robert's opinion.  I'm not claiming Cat didn't make a rash decision, but she clearly couches it as an arrest, in the name of Robert, and she knows she has the legal backing to do so because the #2 guy in the kingdom agrees with her that Tyrion is guilty.

Except he does not. 

"Why should Tyrion Lannister want Bran dead? The boy has never done him harm." -Ned

If Ned wanted him arrested he would not be using his wife and her one out of shape guard to do it. He is not an idiot, he would order actual knights to bring him in. Ned makes zero mention to either the reader or the city that he wants Tyrion arrested. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, she is a Tully.  But we just don't know enough about the way the law works in Westeros to make this kind of judgement call.  And what does it have to do with anything that Tyrion is Tywin's son?  He's not his heir, having been effectively disinherited by Tywin.

Really? Can you provide a quote that Tyrion was disinherited in AGOT?

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

So he has no real legal rights in excess of other men.  Yes, an actual lord has some feudal protection, but Tyrion isn't a lord.

He is the son of a Warden of the West, and also the King's brother-in-law. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

FIne.  Again, doesn't invalidate the legality of the arrest in the first place.

eh? It was not an arrest, it was an abduction. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 Cat thinks it's legal.

Does she? Citation please?

Did she also think it was legal when she released Edmure and Robb's prisoner? She did not have the authority to do that either, she merely acted in the moment. 

Cat makes irrational decisions when it comes to the Lannisters. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 All of the random ass retainers she calls upon think it's legal, or they wouldn't do it.

They didnt all do it. Some, notably the Freys, did not accompany her. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 Ned sanctions it.

After the fact, not before. And he had quit his position as Hand at that point, so I'm not sure how exactly he could have sanctioned it. 

 

 

 

[devilish]

On Invalid Date at 11:51 PM, cpg2016 said:

1- Respect is important to Tywin.  It's the most important thing to him.

2-And.... Cersei does take action.  She's not only cuckolding her husband with her own brother, but is also using contraceptives to prevent a true blooded Baratheon heir from being born.

3-Actually, this is the opposite.  Most Lannisters seem to like Tyrion, except Tywin and Cersei (and Joffrey).  Myrcella and Tommen clearly love him, and we get no indication that  Kevan or any of the extended clan dislike him.

 

4-I'm not sure where you're getting that the Lannisters don't make "rash decisions".  They do it all the time.  Jaime and Cersei have awful judgement.  For all that Tywin is considered a cold blooded man, he makes a lot of silly, rash choices, often motivated by his sick attitudes towards sex and power.

1- If that was the case then Tywin would have rebelled against Aerys way before he actually did and he wouldn't have footed his ungrateful son in law's bills. No, what matters to Tywin is power. His only aim was to see a blondie on the IT irrespective whether that blondie would be happy there or if his family name would be ruined by it (ie killing Elia and her children is not nice)

2- I never said otherwise. However everything was being made hush hush behind Robert's back. What happened to Tyrion was enough to bring the lions out of the shadows and against the ruler of the land. They never did that before (ie Jamie's KG, Aerys insulting Joanna etc) which explains how severe Cat's actions were

3- Mycella and co are Baratheon (or at least they think so)

4- Those rash decisions were taken during the war. Which is understandable considering that most families were against them. Before the war, everyone was happy obeying a script which saw Lannister pure blood usurping Robert's crown while he's busy whoring and drinking his way to an early grave.

[Graydon Hicks]

40 minutes ago, devilish said:

1- If that was the case then Tywin would have rebelled against Aerys way before he actually did and he wouldn't have footed his ungrateful son in law's bills. No, what matters to Tywin is power. His only aim was to see a blondie on the IT irrespective whether that blondie would be happy there or if his family name would be ruined by it (ie killing Elia and her children is not nice)

2- I never said otherwise. However everything was being made hush hush behind Robert's back. What happened to Tyrion was enough to bring the lions out of the shadows and against the ruler of the land. They never did that before (ie Jamie's KG, Aerys insulting Joanna etc) which explains how severe Cat's actions were

3- Mycella and co are Baratheon (or at least they think so)

4- Those rash decisions were taken during the war. Which is understandable considering that most families were against them. Before the war, everyone was happy obeying a script which saw Lannister pure blood usurping Robert's crown while he's busy whoring and drinking his way to an early grave.

well, i would say that what matters to tywin is both power, for him personally, and respect, for the house of lannister in general. it looks like the two things he hates most is incompetence and embarrasment, which is why he has such disdain for cersie. she thinks shes her father with tits, and she certainly has his ambitious and ruthless nature, but shes not as smart as tywin is, and when she tries to be clever at politics, the way tywin would be, she is overly blatant. not that she fails, but being blatant at the subtlety of politics is its own failure, and that incompetence is an embarrassment obvious to all who are adept at the Game, like tywin himself, olenna, doran, and others. thus its an embarrasment to the house and tywin, and degrades the respect for the house.

now, i have noticed, that it seems that most of tyrion's family, his uncles, jaime, mycella and tommen, do like tyrion. it smainly cersie and tywin that are hateful, but even tywin seems to grudgingly acknowledge tyrion's own competence. that why he sent tyrion to kings landing to ride herd on cersie and joffrey, and their excesses, where cersie is so incredibly dismissive of tyrion and his opinions, even when nearly everyone else int he room is in agreement with him, just because they come tyrion, and that makes them obviously bad ideas in her book.

the lannisters do take rash actions, but not all lannister. tywin is a very careful and methodical man, his career has proven that, from being hand of the king, a competent one, for 20 years, to rebuilding his family fortunes after his father nearly squandered the house into ruin. but jaime and cersie are rash. jaime is a bit of an idiot. he usually just does what ever the strongest personality in the room tells him, and usually that either tywin or cersie. when left to his own devices, he seems to turn into an actual human being, not scorn wrapped in skin bag like his sister. cersei, like i said before, is as ruthless and ambitious as her father, but as clever. so she does make stupid, rash decisions. those decisions might be very expedient, but not always very effective or efficient. and are about as subtle as a big red barn on sesame street. 

[devilish]

4 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

well, i would say that what matters to tywin is both power, for him personally, and respect, for the house of lannister in general. it looks like the two things he hates most is incompetence and embarrasment, which is why he has such disdain for cersie. she thinks shes her father with tits, and she certainly has his ambitious and ruthless nature, but shes not as smart as tywin is, and when she tries to be clever at politics, the way tywin would be, she is overly blatant. not that she fails, but being blatant at the subtlety of politics is its own failure, and that incompetence is an embarrassment obvious to all who are adept at the Game, like tywin himself, olenna, doran, and others. thus its an embarrasment to the house and tywin, and degrades the respect for the house.

now, i have noticed, that it seems that most of tyrion's family, his uncles, jaime, mycella and tommen, do like tyrion. it smainly cersie and tywin that are hateful, but even tywin seems to grudgingly acknowledge tyrion's own competence. that why he sent tyrion to kings landing to ride herd on cersie and joffrey, and their excesses, where cersie is so incredibly dismissive of tyrion and his opinions, even when nearly everyone else int he room is in agreement with him, just because they come tyrion, and that makes them obviously bad ideas in her book.

the lannisters do take rash actions, but not all lannister. tywin is a very careful and methodical man, his career has proven that, from being hand of the king, a competent one, for 20 years, to rebuilding his family fortunes after his father nearly squandered the house into ruin. but jaime and cersie are rash. jaime is a bit of an idiot. he usually just does what ever the strongest personality in the room tells him, and usually that either tywin or cersie. when left to his own devices, he seems to turn into an actual human being, not scorn wrapped in skin bag like his sister. cersei, like i said before, is as ruthless and ambitious as her father, but as clever. so she does make stupid, rash decisions. those decisions might be very expedient, but not always very effective or efficient. and are about as subtle as a big red barn on sesame street. 

Throughout his life all Tywin cared was power. He would humiliate rebels (ex Tyrion’s wife) in the most cruel of ways, he would make powerful enemies (ex the Martells), he would risk and even sacrifice his children’s lives (Jamie in the sacking of KL or Tyrion during Joffrey’s trial) and he would grovel into submission (first to Aerys and later on to Robert) just to make sure that a blondie sit on the IT and remain there. If Tywin cared about respect then he would have left the HOTK role long before he actually did and he would have joined the rebellion just to stick 1 to Aerys. Not only that, he would refrain from killing Elia and her children and he would certainly not allow Tyrion’s wife to be gang raped by an entire army. Tysha might have been a peasant girl who married above her station without proper permission but she was a Lannister. There were more elegant ways to get rid of her without jeopardising the family honour. Tywin threw family’s respect out of the window by choosing the one who will scar Tyrion so much that he won’t dare rebelling again

Regarding Tyrion, I would be very careful in describing his family’s signs of affection as love. Tyrion was son and heir of one of the most dangerous Lannisters in living history. Tywin was vindictive, he was a control freak (most of his brothers/sisters either left CR or were forced to be dependent on him) and had shown, time and time again that he is able to annihilate any dissenter in the cruel way possible.  Would you risk pissing him off by mistreating his son and heir especially since that child happen to have a very similar character to his own father? Also note that during Tyrion’s trial no one dared putting a good word for Tyrion (apart from Jamie). Tommen for example could have helped his uncle a great deal and yet he stayed silent like all the rest. So how much love did they had towards Tyrion exactly?

[Graydon Hicks]

15 hours ago, devilish said:

Throughout his life all Tywin cared was power. He would humiliate rebels (ex Tyrion’s wife) in the most cruel of ways, he would make powerful enemies (ex the Martells), he would risk and even sacrifice his children’s lives (Jamie in the sacking of KL or Tyrion during Joffrey’s trial) and he would grovel into submission (first to Aerys and later on to Robert) just to make sure that a blondie sit on the IT and remain there. If Tywin cared about respect then he would have left the HOTK role long before he actually did and he would have joined the rebellion just to stick 1 to Aerys. Not only that, he would refrain from killing Elia and her children and he would certainly not allow Tyrion’s wife to be gang raped by an entire army. Tysha might have been a peasant girl who married above her station without proper permission but she was a Lannister. There were more elegant ways to get rid of her without jeopardising the family honour. Tywin threw family’s respect out of the window by choosing the one who will scar Tyrion so much that he won’t dare rebelling again

Regarding Tyrion, I would be very careful in describing his family’s signs of affection as love. Tyrion was son and heir of one of the most dangerous Lannisters in living history. Tywin was vindictive, he was a control freak (most of his brothers/sisters either left CR or were forced to be dependent on him) and had shown, time and time again that he is able to annihilate any dissenter in the cruel way possible.  Would you risk pissing him off by mistreating his son and heir especially since that child happen to have a very similar character to his own father? Also note that during Tyrion’s trial no one dared putting a good word for Tyrion (apart from Jamie). Tommen for example could have helped his uncle a great deal and yet he stayed silent like all the rest. So how much love did they had towards Tyrion exactly?

i didnt say love, i said like. and who in their right mind would contradict tywin lannister, to face, where he could get at them later. everyone is so afraid of him that none will stand against his will. would it make sense if i said the to tywin, respect and power are the same thing? respect grants you power, and power brings you respect.

[devilish]

5 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i didnt say love, i said like. and who in their right mind would contradict tywin lannister, to face, where he could get at them later. everyone is so afraid of him that none will stand against his will. would it make sense if i said the to tywin, respect and power are the same thing? respect grants you power, and power brings you respect.

Well Genna confronted Tywin regarding Tyrion so if she liked the imp then surely she would confront him again. I see things in a different way. The Lannister extended family depended completely on Tywin who was renowned to be a generous but ruthless control freak. They witnessed first-hand, the Castamere and KL incidents, the way he developed the Cleganes from grateful dog breeders to killing machines and the way he handled Tyrion’s wife. That’s quite scary isn’t it? So how they reacted to it? Some obeyed him blindly, others stayed out of his and his children’s way (which explain why young Lady Cersei was allowed to do whatever she wanted in her father’s absence) while others just fled. 

So lets return to Genna’s incident. She said to Tywin that Tyrion is his true son which I agree completely. But see it from the Lannister’s extended family POV. They have lived for so long under Tywin’s terror. Now how things fell into place, there’s a big chance that Tywin Mark 2 with a worse upbringing then the original will end up ruling over CR and their lives. That’s quite terrifying. How will Tyrion act? Considering his upbringing and his total lack of respect towards his betters (Tywin , Cersei and King Joffrey) then how he will treat his own and weaker family members? Since he's a dwarf will the Westerlands bannermen even respect him at all? Considering his issues with Cersei will he lead his family to a second civil war?

That might explain why no Lannister cared of putting a good word in favour of Tyrion. Why would they? With Tyrion out of the way, CR will end up either to Kevan or to Jamie both better options for them than a Tywin Mark2. 
 

[cpg2016]

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Dude, the King called it an abduction and ordered Ned to release him. Information that you previously were unaware of and now that quotes from the actual books have been provided you still are sticking your head in the sand and going with your original opinion. 

You said that you were only wrong if Robert ordered the release  and when pointed out that he actually did you are still arguing your wrong opinion. 

Right, and if Robert orders his release and Ned doesn't do it, then he's in the wrong.  Ned has the legal authority to do anything he wants.  If the King countermands it, so be it, but it doesn't not retroactively make the initial action illegal.  The police can arrest an innocent man without it being a violation of that person's rights.  The only action we know for a certainty that happened is that Cat arrested Tyrion, with her husband's consent.  

 

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Others didnt, that is why they have a better understanding of this current debate. You decided to give an ill informed opinion and refuse to back down from it despite the books actually directly contradicting what you thought happened. 

Well, no, that isn't true.  The question is, is what Catelyn did legal?  And literally nothing you've said bears on that.  Ned agrees at a time when he has legal authority to do so, which means Cat's actions are legally valid from a royal perspective (we aren't even getting into the fact that Catelyn may have the legal authority to arrest Tyrion on her own).  All you've said is that Robert, under the influence of bad information, orders Tyrion's release.  We have no evidence that (a) Catelyn refuses to do so, or is even made aware of this order, and (b) that she even has the authority to do so anymore, since Lysa is now in control of the proceedings.

 

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

It is. The King calls it so. Cat has no legal authority to arrest the King's  brother-in-law in the Riverlands. 

Wait, you have absolutely no evidence that Cat has no legal rights in the Riverlands.  She clearly invokes her Tully heritage with all of her father's bannermen, and they all respond to that, which is pretty fair evidence that she has the right to command vassals (e.g. that she has legal authority there).  Against which, you provide... nothing disproving it.  Again, the King's command may trump whatever authority she has, but she hasn't actually defied the King's command.

And moreover, Westeros has laws.  Murder is illegal, whatever the King may say.  Aerys II was deposed for as much.  The King is not divine in a feudal political setting.

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Bullshit as Cat never uses Ned's name when making the arrest. There are many witnesses to hear what Cat had said. Please actually read the books rather than simply argue what you want them to say. Robert calls it an abduction, as does Varys in a private conversation with an Essos agent. The realm as well as the King see it as an abduction. 

"The talk is he's ridden back to Casterly Rock to join his father. The story of how Lady Catelyn took the Imp is on every lip. I have put on extra guards, if it please you."

Ned lies to Robert when he said he knew of the arrest, he is as surprised as anyone. Even in his own private thoughts he does not think of it as an arrest

Right.... and what Cat says is to invoke

legal authority.

“This man came a guest into my house, and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven,” she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. “In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king’s justice.” 

That isn't the language of a kidnapping, it's the language of an arrest.  So she very clearly believes she's arresting Tyrion for a crime.  No one else is aware of the crime he's being accused of, which is why some consider it an abduction.  But in that case, any arrest is an abduction.  All it needs is legal force behind it.  Catelyn clearly has some right to command the men in the Riverlands, for the simple fact that they follow her.  She also knows she has the Hand's unofficial blessing.  How is any of this not perfectly legal?  Yes, Robert later countermands it.  But it simply doesn't matter.  If this is the extent of your knowledge of law, then you shouldn't be having this argument.  Post facto events/information do not invalidate actions taken legally at the time.

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Yet those of us who have actually read the books know that this is a lie. Honest Ned has, not for the first or last time, lied to his King. 

OK.  Show me where Ned says Cat cannot arrest Tyrion?  We do not hear the extent of their conversation; all we hear is him agree with her assessment that Tyrion Lannister is guilty.  You are assuming, just as much as I am.

And yes, Ned has lied to the King.  This is not necessarily a case of it, though.  Again, Ned clearly agrees with Catelyn that Tyrion is guilty, and given the social and political structure of landing, there is no standing police force, no detectives, no one with enumerated legal authority to arrest a known criminal absent a royal command.  Most likely the parrallel here is the posse comitatus, or the preceding but related law of hue and cry, both of which call on citizens to assist in arrests.  Catelyn "knows" Tyrion is guilty of a crime.  Everyone who she talks to in the moment seems to agree that she had the authority to arrest Tyrion, which is why they assist her.  They all know who he is too; they are siding with Catelyn Stark over Tyrion Lannister, knowing the consequences.
 

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Ned lying that he commanded his wife to arrest Tyrion after it happened does not make it any more legal either. Cat, with no legal authority outside of the North, abducted the King's brother-in-law. She fucked up

You have no evidence of this.  At all.  Zero.  Zilch.  Whereas, the fact that she calls on her father's bannermen to arrest Tyrion, and then respond affirmatively by doing so, is pretty strong evidence that the people doing the arresting thought it was legal.

Catelyn had evidence that Tyrion committed a crime.  She's wrong, as it turns out, but not egregiously so, as false testimony has been given.  You have nothing that says that she doesn't have authority in the Riverlands (despite being a Tully, mind you!).  We can make certain assumptions about the rights and responsibilities of lords on their own lands, and whether other lords can infringe upon them, but we don't know for certain.  All we know, to paraphrase Varys, is that she called, and was answered.

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

eh? It was not an arrest, it was an abduction. 

Not in Cat's mind.

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

He is the son of a Warden of the West, and also the King's brother-in-law. 

Which is a reason not to fuck with him, for sure.  But again... nothing in there says "lord".  And every single man helping Cat arrest him (and yes, they are told it is an arrest), seem to be of the opinion that Tywin Lannister's son and Robert's brother-in-law is arrest-able (to make up a word).

Besides which, Jaime Lannister has no problem attacking (very illegally no matter what) Robert's foster brother, a relationship which is considered by Westerosi to be nearly equivalent to a blood relationship (as evidenced by Theon being considered a kinslayer).

Again, nothing we know of says that Tyrion has any particular legal protection or rights here, except the obvious that he's an important person in the realm it's best not to piss off.

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

They didnt all do it. Some, notably the Freys, did not accompany her. 

Now whose turn is it to check the text?  One Whent, three Brackens, and "more than twenty" Frey's are in the Inn.  A dozen swords are drawn; whether that's a vague approximation or exact makes no matter, as the four other Riverlanders plus Rodrik Cassel makes only five.  So many Freys do help Catelyn make her arrest of Tyrion.  Many of them don't go to the Vale, but they all assist in the arrest.

 

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Does she? Citation please?

As I quoted earlier, she couches her arrest specifically in the terms of bringing Tyrion to the King's justice. 

 

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Really? Can you provide a quote that Tyrion was disinherited in AGOT?

He is told that he will never inherit Casterly Rock.  If you are honestly going to quibble that this is because of something Tyrion did between his abduction and Tywin telling him this, then that is your business.  But it goes against everything both those characters stand for and have stated they believe.  Jaime is Tywin's "golden heir" and he intends for Jaime to inherit, hence his constant attempts to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard.  We have no reason to believe Tywin's later statement is anything but a long-held position of his, evidenced by his constant belittling treatment of Tyrion.

 

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

If Ned wanted him arrested he would not be using his wife and her one out of shape guard to do it. He is not an idiot, he would order actual knights to bring him in. Ned makes zero mention to either the reader or the city that he wants Tyrion arrested. 

As I mentioned earlier, feudal kingdoms don't have local police forces.  Anyone with knowledge that a crime was committed is obligated to raise hue and cry to bring them to justice.  And to invalidate your quote, he says "we have proof".  He isn't unsure of Tyrion's guilt.  He is certain of it.

 

On 6/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Did she also think it was legal when she released Edmure and Robb's prisoner? She did not have the authority to do that either, she merely acted in the moment. 

Robb's prisoner, not both of theirs.  And to use your argument, she didn't have the express order not to release him (as you argue must be convincing in Ned not ordering Cat to arrest Tyrion despite their mutual agreement on his guilt), so I guess it's legal, right?

 

Your entire argument relies on two dubious arguments.  One, that Catelyn needs express approval from someone "with authority" to arrest Tyrion.  That means, I guess, Robert or Ned?  Ned has given express consent as to Tyrion's guilt; most medieval societies would, at that point, agree that the duty of all citizens, a duty that is punishable if neglected, is to apprehend the criminal.  Whether or not this action is countermanded later does not impact the initial legality of it.

And second, that Catelyn doesn't have the legal authority to be arresting anyone.  To which I say, we don't know.  All we know is she asked a bunch of third parties to help her arrest Tyrion, and they all agreed.  So... the actors on the ground seem to think what she was doing was legally justified.

[Rickon Stark The Aulë]

On 6/17/2017 at 8:52 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

Next would be the Tyrells, (weak leadership during the Dance of Dragons), when one of their vassals' offspring (Greens) had a very good chance of becoming King. Intermarriage of  powerhouses like Hightowers and Redwynes seems to keep them afloat. 

During the Dance of the Dragons, the Lord of Highgarden was a kid so you should expect weak leadership. Also considering that the Hightowers can raise more men than the rest of the Reach combined(50-60% of 100k men which would let them be able to raise anywhere from 40-60k men) would let them easily raise more men then entire kingdoms combined so it makes sense for them to be a very good contender to be kings, I would hardly fault the Tyrells because of it. 

The Tully's have a single castle in a very large river vs their vassals with castles that took an entire kingdom to build. The Tully's maintain their power through marriages combine that with the Riverlands has no major Natural resources other than fertile fields and lots of fresh water and no natural defences and you get a fractured kingdom since the only real value in the Riverlands is land... how do you get land in the Riverlands? Through war. Tully's don't feel like Lord Paramounts of strong figures of central power. Instead, the Tully's are to their Vassals" that one family that married into mine 2 generations ago and occasionally gives my taxes to the iron throne" vs people like the Starks or Lannisters who are undeniable the Overlords and central authority figure in their respective Kingdoms. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 hours ago, Rickon Stark The Aulë said:

During the Dance of the Dragons, the Lord of Highgarden was a kid so you should expect weak leadership. Also considering that the Hightowers can raise more men than the rest of the Reach combined(50-60% of 100k men which would let them be able to raise anywhere from 40-60k men) would let them easily raise more men then entire kingdoms combined so it makes sense for them to be a very good contender to be kings, I would hardly fault the Tyrells because of it. 

The Tully's have a single castle in a very large river vs their vassals with castles that took an entire kingdom to build. The Tully's maintain their power through marriages combine that with the Riverlands has no major Natural resources other than fertile fields and lots of fresh water and no natural defences and you get a fractured kingdom since the only real value in the Riverlands is land... how do you get land in the Riverlands? Through war. Tully's don't feel like Lord Paramounts of strong figures of central power. Instead, the Tully's are to their Vassals" that one family that married into mine 2 generations ago and occasionally gives my taxes to the iron throne" vs people like the Starks or Lannisters who are undeniable the Overlords and central authority figure in their respective Kingdoms. 

The Hightowers cannot raise 50k men. Not even close.

[Adam Yozza]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Hightowers cannot raise 50k men. Not even close.

Agreed. I'd put their max strength at about 20k and even that might be stretching it a bit. There's no doubt that they are the single most powerful house in the Reach, even more so than the Tyrell's most likely. But no where near 50k. In the Dance, the Hightower army (which consisted of those directly raised from by the Hightower's and about half of their vassals) were nearly defeated in open battle by the forces of house Rowan, Tarly, Caswell and the other half of the Hightower vassals. Only Tessarion and Daeron saved them.

[Rickon Stark The Aulë]

11 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Hightowers cannot raise 50k men. Not even close.

The Hightowers can raise more men then the entire reach combined. Since approx. the reach can raise 100k men then they should be able to raise 40-50k. It seems a bit outrageous but I don't think we truly realize how big the Reach is. Unless I am mistaken, do you guys have any sources? Maybe I am going crazy. 

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

50 minutes ago, Rickon Stark The Aulë said:

The Hightowers can raise more men then the entire reach combined. Since approx. the reach can raise 100k men then they should be able to raise 40-50k. It seems a bit outrageous but I don't think we truly realize how big the Reach is. Unless I am mistaken, do you guys have any sources? Maybe I am going crazy. 

 

 

Where is it stated that they can raise more than the rest of the Reach combined?